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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHarvey Discussion with MAGA co-worker
My recent conversation with a MAGA co-worker who often takes the chance to tell us he is a Christian. I didn't start this one - he did. But I finished it:
Him: Wow, did you see all that stuff happening in Houston?
Me: Yes, horrible, isnt it?
Him: Yes. Did you see how Trump stepped up and promised that the government would take care of everyone? Thats a REAL President.
Me: Hmm, I thought youd be upset about the government interfering in a local matter. I mean, you were the one who told me that government is NEVER the answer when I suggested single-payer health care. That private enterprise can ALWAYS do better than the government. (yes, I baited him.)
Him: Oh, thats different. A lot of peoples homes have been destroyed in Houston and there are lives at stake because of all the flooding. They HAD to do something. Its too big for the local people.
Me: Oh really? (Mind spinning here with all the obvious problems in that statement given his earlier staunch defense of the free market as the solution to everything). So, there ARE things that are too big or not well-suited to private enterprise after all?
Him: Sure. A natural disaster is one of those things.
Me: So, I guess timing is everything.
Him: Yes, it is.
Me: Right. So, when a whole bunch of familys lives are being ruined all at once and they are losing their homes its a disaster. Because the circumstances are beyond their control. The government should do something. Help out and also protect them from price gouging by private businesses. But when one family at a time is having its life ruined and losing its home over an illness then its okay. The government should stand by and let the free market take its course. Who cares if families here and there are ruined one at a time, over time.
Him: Thats not what I said.
Me: Oh, yes, that is exactly what youve said.
Him: No, you dont understand. People can choose to live better lives and take care of themselves so they dont get sick. The government shouldnt help out people who dont take care of themselves. Its not the same thing.
Me: Really? You mean people cant chose to not build in flood plains and hurricane zones and they cant just buy insurance on the free market to cover their losses?
Him: Youre being silly. Its not the same thing.
Me: You mean people choose to have cancer or be in a life-altering accident? They choose to have an illness in a country where we pay 3 times as much for health care in our free market as other civilized countries do in their single-payer systems? And get worse outcomes overall.
Him: No. Its just not the same thing.
Me: Hmm, the outcome is the same in both situations. A family is ruined and the country worse off for it.
Him: You just dont understand. Its not the same.
Me: (Shaking my head and walking away) You are absolutely right. I do not understand.
Glimmer of Hope
(5,823 posts)Warpy
(111,141 posts)It's going to have to happen to him before he gets it.
Sad.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)The lies run deep and propanganda works.
Dustlawyer
(10,494 posts)They watch Fox and listen to RW radio all day for years. It is ingrained. I hope this co-worker starts thinking about the paradox. He just knows he is right but both things cannot be true. Sadly, his thinking has been done for him for so long he might not be able to think on his own at all anymore.
Maraya1969
(22,462 posts)to them. The hardcore probably won't. I'm sure he caused this man to think and that is a good thing
Warpy
(111,141 posts)You'll need it.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)Fox (and Limbaugh) are the foundation of lies. Bring them down and the whole set of ideas collapses.
Maraya1969
(22,462 posts)the reputable source starts to think. Especially if I show them how studies have found out that conservatism and racism go hand in hand with low IQ's. Then I mention that it could be just what they taught to let them know they can change. People change their party all the time.
If you can watch, "The Brain Washing of my Dad"
But if you never try you never will get positive results.
May I just say, every time I see the jumping penguins, my heart feels lighter. Thank you!
KentuckyWoman
(6,679 posts)I have a relative that is one of those Fundie Christian, God loves Republicans, All Democrats are evil types who is on SSDI and Medicare and still screams about wanting government out of everyone's life. He thinks God chose Trump to save us all from big government and various brown people who are destroying US of A.
Now to top it all off, his wife has cancer, will probably lose her job and her medical insurance benefits, and he's still ranting about how Obama destroyed America and how wonderful it is that the Republicans can make America great again.... even as they price out options with ACA insurance.
When it's someone else it's a choice they could have made differently... when it's them it's a test from God to help them stand as a witness for His Good.
It's mind boggling.
DFW
(54,293 posts)They think the Government should step in to help a bunch of nameless people as a group who can be pictured on a TV segment from a helicopter at 2500 feet, and then with Trump posing with three of them ten seconds later, just before a commercial cuts in.
They do NOT think the government should lift a finger to help people whose faces and names can be pointed out on an individual basis--unless they are the afflicted party, of course.
Trumpadors all for the government helping "Houston." They are just against helping any individual who lives there (or anywhere else, for that matter).
CrispyQ
(36,422 posts)Sydney Ellen Wade: [to the President] This isn't about me. How can you keep quiet? How do you have patience for people who claim they love America, but clearly can't stand Americans?
DFW
(54,293 posts)Not very realistic, but a great film for a put-down of the sleazy right wing for sure.
CrispyQ
(36,422 posts)but I wonder, would America today, elect a single man to the presidency?
These 2 Single U.S. Presidents In History Prove There's Precedent For Candidate Lindsey Graham's Bachelor Status
https://www.bustle.com/articles/87904-these-2-single-us-presidents-in-history-prove-theres-precedent-for-candidate-lindsey-grahams-bachelor-status
snip...
Even in Graham's presidential campaign announcement, he makes mention of the strong bond he has with his family as well as their continued support. Although he is single, he says he isn't a self-made man. So, is it possible for Graham to secure the presidency without a partner? History says yes. Two previous presidents were sworn in without a partner. James Buchanan stands as the only president to never marry, while Grover Cleveland became president while unmarried and later tied the knot in the White House. Four other presidents took office as widowers, while three more lost their spouses while serving as commander in chief.
James Buchanan - Presidential term: March 4, 1857 March 4, 1861
Grover Cleveland - Presidential terms: March 4, 1885 March 4, 1889, March 4, 1893 March 4, 1897
DFW
(54,293 posts)Trump's "marriage" seems to have no more much credibility than anything else about him.
Ligyron
(7,616 posts)Maybe that's why he has more class than most other GOPers.
FakeNoose
(32,581 posts)I've had very similar conversations myself!
Right-wingers are mostly low information but extremely stubborn.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)"Fox ignored that the president has said before he would donate money, then he doesn't do it. And Fox said the president would donate $1M to Harvey without saying how many times Trump had lied about this before."
This HAS worked for me. When you point out that Fox lies, Trumpkins will react aggressively. But there's a 50/50 chance they'll come back to me in two weeks with much-watered-down views. It's like a cult, and you have to break the information lock before you change people's minds.
------------
https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2017/09/01/ignoring-trumps-record-not-delivering-donations-fox-friends-gushes-over-reported-harvey-donation/217823
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/2016-election/trump-charity-donations/
"Searching for evidence of Trumps personal giving
The Washington Post has contacted more than 400 charities with some ties to the GOP nominee in an effort to find proof of the millions he has said he donated to them. Weve mostly been unsuccessful."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/09/16/trump-said-hed-give-away-5-million-or-maybe-50-million-for-proof-obama-was-born-in-the-u-s-will-he-pay-it/?utm_term=.9f9506aefe10
In 2012, Trump said he'd donate $5 million for that proof.
"Now then, what wasnt reported by the press is, sometime just prior to the expiration date of that offer, I raised the offer to $50 million. $50 million! For charity,' Trump said in 2014. "Pick your charity, for $50 million, and let me see your records! And I never heard from him."
On Friday, Trump said he'd been convinced of Obama's birthplace at last. At an event at his hotel in downtown Washington, Trump gave a brief statement, affirming that President Obama had been born in the U.S.
[Trump admits Obama was born in U.S., but falsely blames Clinton for starting rumors]
Trump then quickly left the podium, and the room, without taking any questions.
So Trump must have seen the proof he wanted.
Now, will he donate the money?
mtngirl47
(987 posts)and they don't understand logic or analogies.
bitterross
(4,066 posts)This particular guy is of a generation where schools taught memory skills to pass standardized tests rather than how to think.
SammyWinstonJack
(44,129 posts)That's it. Otherwise he'd be screaming about government interference. Bet ya.
TeamPooka
(24,207 posts)Skittles
(153,113 posts)not fooled
(5,801 posts)that dump['s proposed budget contains CUTS to FEMA and NOAA.
However, now that the people of Houston need help, apparently now the GOPee is gonna reverse themselves, quick, and be all pro-evil gubmint helping people. For a while, anyway.
The hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance are staggering.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)And he'll be arguing that the government should stop helping them, muttering something like "fucking moochers" under his breath.
uponit7771
(90,302 posts)sandensea
(21,600 posts)Most of the Republicans I've had such conversations with quickly degenerate into red-faced, shouting, threat-issuing, name-calling humanoids.
ornotna
(10,795 posts)It's not on the boarder though.
yonder
(9,657 posts)KY_EnviroGuy
(14,488 posts)I've heard that line "you dont understand" several times out of right-wingers and it's a dog whistle meant to demean the opponent. Just hearing that infuriates me. That is an extremely disrespectful statement that has no place in adult conversation.
When one says that now, I immediately stop the conversation and say something like this: "You have no way of knowing what I know or don't know, or understand. For you're information, I'm way the hell past your "don't understand" stage."
Or say: "stop pretending you know what's in my brain".
It's important to reset the conversation, then they are vulnerable to being called out on bullshit.
RhodeIslandOne
(5,042 posts)I get that one from a Trump loving co-worker on things that are obviously correct.
KY_EnviroGuy
(14,488 posts)a Lewis Black rant about people that don't accept evolution. He said he carries a fossil in his pocket. When someone denies evolution, he pulls it out, points it to their face and yells "FOSSIL".
Maybe we need to carry a set of business card-size sheets imprinted with a variety of "FACTS", LOL.
KentuckyWoman
(6,679 posts)that it is OK to have one set of rules for you and your friends and a different set for everyone else.
Then give them a withering look of pity and walk away.
Generally speaking that puts a quick end to one of them making my ears bleed with their twaddle.
KY_EnviroGuy
(14,488 posts)Repugs tend to only be comfortable in their bubble of friends and media outlets. In my experiences, outside the bubble they seem in fear and are prone to insult and use vile innuendo toward outsiders, as if they're looking down at you.
I think I'm relating with regard to me talking with someone perhaps 20 or 30 years younger than I that does not know me well and insults me right off the bat in conversation. That's not acceptable and these sorts of folks need to be told that their Fox News/Limbaugh dialog does not cut it in conversations between ladies and gentlemen.
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but true ladies and gentlemen would not use the phrase "you don't understand". They would instead engage in rational dialog (I know, I'm dreaming) to determine what background and knowledge the listener has, then exchange different views on the topic.
The fundamental methodology for many right-wingers is to refuse to show any respect whatsoever to those outside their bubble.
There's a lot of interesting psychology behind this issue, some of it quite disturbing to me as a progressive.
PatrickforO
(14,559 posts)Perhaps it will bloom and he will at least consider other ways to live than in a constant Lord of the Flies libertarian death match.
I sure as hell don't want to live that way.
paleotn
(17,882 posts)The allies exposed the Nazis for exactly who they were and bombed Germany to dust and 70+ years later we STILL have strutting, jack booted Nazi thugs. As our country becomes inevitably more progressive, there will still be old farts who pine for the "good old days" when a major illness bankrupted entire families. Just like now, where a few pine for the days when women were chattel and they could keep African Americans as pets.
Lotusflower70
(3,077 posts)That person wants to rationalize and justify one and dismiss the other. It suits the false narrative that healthcare is an entitlement.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Better luck next time identifying and developing a point you can agree on.
Willie Pep
(841 posts)It is a very silly idea since poor people often work multiple jobs and probably spend more time dealing with pressing matters than wealthier people who can pay people to do those things for them. This probably also helps to explain why poorer people have worse health. They don't have the time or energy to practice self-care like more affluent people. When you are working one or more crappy job where your boss and others likely treat you like garbage your first instinct when you go home is likely to collapse on the couch and watch TV. This isn't even getting into the difficulties of raising children, having to do all of your own cleaning, cooking, etc. Being poor is really exhausting and time consuming.
You made some very good points though, but unfortunately many Americans have this idea that poor people are morally deficient and need to be punished for "not taking care of themselves." That is a big problem with the debate around health care, blaming people for getting sick, like no person ever got sick even if they exercised and ate right. And that argument is almost always throw at poor people the most because they are perceived as lazy and stupid and so entirely responsible for their own bad health.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)when he says the govt will take care of them. If he really thought that, he wouldn't cut the program that helps disaster areas and victims.
It's also not HIS decision, is it? Congress controls the purse, doesn't it?
RhodeIslandOne
(5,042 posts)......"I'm a horrible, selfish, hypocritical human being" should be the next words from their mouth.
politicat
(9,808 posts)When you get a "It's not the same thing," response, ask, "Okay, explain to me how they're different. Tell me why a hurricane that affects thousands is different than a disease like Multiple Sclerosis (which has no known prevention) that also affects thousands." And then make them explain. Be quiet. Just listen, hold your tongue and make that person work it out and articulate it.
The chances are good you're going to get something in the range of magical thinking -- that disease is a just punishment from God, or something just world/victim-blamey or a pure fear that if they have sympathy for someone else, it will somehow rub off on them. When you get that, ask, "do you want others to treat you that way?" With as little judgement in your voice as you can manage, and just wait and make him work it out.
The cognitive hack here is that human emotion is much faster than human reason, so when you're challenging those beliefs, his emotions are just yelling "bitterross is being MEAN!!!" and his reason is not engaging. By making him articulate it, you make his brain do the work. The Socratic method is more likely to change behavior and beliefs over the long-term -- about half the time, which is better than argument (less than 5%).
Of course, about half the time, being questioned and made to reason makes people storm off in a huff. This is not necessarily a bad outcome, either.
Hulk
(6,699 posts)Waste of breath. They don't get it. They don't want to "get it", and you can't make them. It's a fucking disease, and nothing you can say will change their ignorant, illlogical mind...period.
Hulk
(6,699 posts)None of these selfish, sick morons woyld give a shit. Truth be told, most of them don't give a shit now; it's just lip service.
beachjustice
(45 posts)They don't have any ideas to develop the economy, protect the poor, or protect the environment. They don't have a platform at all, they are just guided by a desire for revenge and they keep some excuses to avoid feeling ashamed when talking to others about reasons for their support for the far-right. A decade of right wing propaganda blaming the poor, the liberals, minorities, and women for all of their problems has taken its toll, and now they wanna get even with all of these groups for every imagined slight against them, and then some.
zentrum
(9,865 posts)Even though he seems intractable, you never know what words he'll mull over later. You may even have immunized him a little bit to the narrative on FOX.
Don't give up.
CakeGrrl
(10,611 posts)to pay for his wall.
He sure won't hear that from Fox News.
And when Mexico blows Trump off again, he'll probably turn right around after this do-over photo-op and keep trying.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)People like that don't often change their thinking, but who knows? You might have given him something to ponder.
Texin
(2,590 posts)It won't be able to penetrate their hard hearts and thick skulls unless they are or another close family member or friend is confronted with a health catastrophe that threatens to level their comfortable lives. Even those who believe they are immune to the effects of the travesty called the U.S. healthcare industry because they've got THEIR Medicare or private insurance policy, they may get a terrible surprise when coverage is denied or the benefits have reached their max-point, or the cost of prescription drugs are ratcheted up by their beloved, so-called "Free Market Economy" to the point of having to make a decision about paying for potentially life-saving medication or eating, paying for utilities, or other basic living requirements, well maybe then they'll "get it".
reflection
(6,286 posts)Many times, I explain that the free market and socialism are both tools, and that certain tools are good for certain jobs. There is nothing inherently evil about either one of them, and you just have to analyze the problem to see which tool (or both tools, or something else) would be better to fix the problem. Living in a Southern red state where people are all about their tools and are happy to have every kind and variation known to man, I sometimes can get some traction with this analogy.
I did like your logical progression though. There's nothing more satisfying than politely walking someone toward a conclusion they would never have arrived at otherwise. If they can reason themselves to that point, a seed will be planted and might take root. But otherwise, most people will not reason themselves out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
DeminPennswoods
(15,265 posts)something bad, be it accident, medical, financial, etc, happens to him/his family. This is when he'll want the federal/state/local gov't to do something to help him. Then you can clap him on the shoulder and say "gee, that's too bad, but you did have choices".
certainot
(9,090 posts)calls himself a libertarian.
and i pointed out to him that he and limbaugh are perfect examples of why free market solutions are so stupid and don't work - they have been using a massive propaganda monopoly with regular feeding from corporate think tanks to deny global warming, help republicans deregulate, and help the fossil corps to delay action that would stimulate alternative solutions, create jobs, and reduce its disastrous effects.