Trump has changed my world view in a profound way.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

I used to believe that the American experiment in self government proved that folks from all walks of life could compromise when necessary and reach a rough consensus. Businessmen and women will tell you the best deal is not where you screwed the other guy or gal but where everybody walks away from the table feeling as if they won something.

I would point to seemingly irreconcilable conflicts like the Arab-Israeli conflict and say that if both sides were able to give a little they could work it out. I would point to America with all its different religions and races and nationalities and say that we more or less get along. Of course I am not ignoring all the conflicts along the way...


But if I can't get along with a Trump supporter who I share a nation with how the hell can I expect hostile nations or religious factions to get along.

Thank you, Mr Trump, for killing my faith in reason, problem solving, and finding consensuses.






P.S. I hate the red edits. They are aesthetically displeasing but I wanted to add this edit: If I had to write my original post over I would have written it a bit differently. There can no be no compromise with evil. It must be defeated. I am hopeful. There will be no consensus to be reached with the Deplorables. They must be defeated, albeit peacefully, and they will be. There are more of us than there are of them.

[RKP5637]

1. Well said!!! n/t

[olegramps]

31. My history professor remarked its actually frightening to think that anyone could become president.

Trump is undoubtedly one of the most brazen demagogues to ever achieve the office of the presidency. The MSM has once again totally failed the citizens. While they flooded the news with the trumped up charges regarding Hilary Clinton and Bengazi and her use of a private email server they gave scant notice to Trumps history of discrimination in leasing to minorities, literally thousands suits (over 3500 at the time he took office) stemming from deliberately refusing to fulfill terms of contracts and forcing suppliers and contractors into bankruptcy. His bilking of his fellow citizens could fill volumes testimony, none of which the MSM thought newsworthy. His major successful blackmail scheme was achieved when the Republican Party caved in to his demands when he threaten to run as a independent.

The parade of boot-lickers slithering up to pay homage to their master is as repulsive as the traitorous kiss of Judas Iscariot. The greatest threat to the Republic is not from without, but from within. The Republicans have driven a knife directly into the heart of the nation that is built on the determination of the founders to forge a nation dedicated to the concept of E pluribus Unum (Out of Many One). This is the most important legacy of the nation's founders. As Adams noted in "Federalist Papers" ...humans are all too likely to form factions that "posses a zeal for differing opinions concerning religion, concerning government , and may other points." That zeal he wrote, "has divided mankind into parties, inflamed them with mutual animosity," and disposed them not to cooperate for the common good. On the second day that the Congress ratified the Declaration of Independence three men were charged with coming up with a motto for the 13 colonies. Benjamin Franklin, John Adams and Thomas adopted the nations motto to symbolize the challenge of bringing the 13 colonies together for the betterment of the all.

The Republicans have embraced a concept diametrically opposed to that of the nations founders that has sustained the nation though numerous challenges, both from within and from external enemies determined to destroy it. They has cast anyone who does not agree with their nationalist and religious concepts to be in-Americans, immoral depravities, who they are charged with totally destroying it. They and they alone are True Americans and the sole source of right. All others are nothing more than parasites that are sucking life out of the nation. It is obvious who is winning this war. They have captured the overwhelming percentage of positions of power, from local governments, statehouses, the congress and the presidency.

Will the nation recover? Yes, but a what cost. The Trump administration is alienating our allies, destroying environmental protections, deregulating banking setting up a financial disaster, etc. This list grows daily. At my age I can do little in the time left and sadly admit that our generation has put the nation in jeopardy and placed a great burden on the youth to regain the vision of One Nation Undivided for the Common Good of All.

[RKP5637]

57. Thank you for your astute summary! I am concerned about the rise of an authoritarian

state as Trump plunders the country and shreds democracy. I'm amazed at the persistence of enablers, especially those trying to normalize his behavior. Much as with you, the list grows daily. I am hopeful the youth are seeing what he wants to turn this country into, and they will fight him. Thanks again for your reply!!!

[Dave Starsky]

2. He has also taught me that the Constitution is a piece of paper.

And that those hallowed institutions that we were taught were bullet-proof in high school government class ONLY exist as long as people aren't enormous assholes. Which, unfortunately, they tend to be.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. We still have a semblance of checks and balances

We still have a semblance of checks and balances because Chump is so uniquely awful that even his own party is wary of him and keeping some distance.


And the lower courts, so far, have checked his worst impulses.

[Scarsdale]

29. His own party

has no choice but to cozy up to him. THEY took Russian money too, in boatloads. They are complicit in this unmitagted disaster, a maniac in the WH. He is all theirs, the democratic politicians are the SANE members of the group. Not to mention the law abiding ones.

[Dave Starsky]

30. They're just getting started.

We have yet to see the Gorsuch-fortified right-wing SC swing into action or to behold the budget fight that is just coming, as our "Representatives" become even more strident in accomplishing tax cuts for the rich at the expense of all else.

We've had a bit of a "vacation" from Congress's shenanigans while they've been out of session, but I guarantee you they are about to become much, much worse.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. Even SCOTUS is not immune from political pressure.

Rehnquist opposed the Miranda Warning for years but voted to uphold it at the end of his career because it became part of the fabric of American jurisprudence.

I suspect Thomas and Gorsuch might ratify every Trump scheme that comes before the Court. I have a bit more faith in Roberts and Kennedy and to a lesser extent, Ailito. They are smart enough to see Chump is on the wrong side of history and don't want to be the next Justice Taney.

[rock]

4. You take a chance with the populace electing a powerful leader

However small the chance, you may nevertheless select a madman. Of course, you may be lucky(!) and get away with someone like w*.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. I thought the Electoral College was supposed to be a brake on electing a lunatic.

That's what were taught in school, that if the voters elected a demagogue and tyrant the Electoral College could overrule them. It was supposed to be so much more than a vote multiplier for small states.

[rock]

17. True

But even that depends on the voters choice of who he picks to constitute the Electoral College. They may all be cowards or even hold their party above the nation, or both.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. We are a republic or a representative democracy.

I remember some guy arguing with one of my professors about that. Hamilton was very wary of pure democracy and rightfully so. The irony is the Electoral College which was ostensibly designed to stop a demagogue from becoming president elected one, and one who got less votes than the person he ran against.

[guillaumeb]

55. But all of these Electors come from individual states.

And the GOP has demonstrated that it is not really interested in fair elections, it is interested in retaining power. The GOP has demonstrated that it does not really believe in a two party system.

[smirkymonkey]

6. He has destroyed my faith in all that is decent in this world.

Since he took office, we have seen nothing but lies, corruption, hatred, racism, sexism and pure idiocy. There are still good human beings out there, but this administration is wearing them down and has it's boot on their necks.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

15. Destroyed? Well, maybe except for...

small children and animals, LOL.

My biggest concern in our country is the systematic sowing of division by the Republican party starting back in the 60s (within my memory) beginning with Nixon/Agnew, using a massive 24/7 campaign of lies and deceptions in our media. They have progressively done this to us non-stop with no moral reservation and even have the gall to blame Democrats.

I'm convinced there is a method to this madness and they have it perfected.

Trump has just simply put the process in overdrive. I call their method Divide, Demean, Deceive, Dumb-down and Destroy.

[smirkymonkey]

16. Excellent point.

Trump is the culmination of the divisive policies that the GOP have implemented for years. He is a disaster, but he couldn't have been possible without the hatred and corruption that the republicans have used to undermine this country since Nixon. They finally got what they wanted and we are paying for it.

They are traitors to this nation, all of them.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

21. Yes!

And, their ultimate objective is to gain total control of government, hence all the levers of power. They live with this pipe dream that if all their ideas are implemented, the nation will be perfect again, everyone will have a job and be perfectly content and happy.

I'm convinced most of the Republicans in power are psychopaths and are therefore not able to see or recognize reality. They live in a carefully crafted bubble with it's own news and cultural media (essentially a nation within a nation). They are funded by billionaires that only care about business profits.

The thing that makes me ill is that I can't see any way this process can be reversed that is within the power of the working body politic.

[smirkymonkey]

23. Nothing short of a complete revolution can undo this clusterfuck.

Hopefully, it won't have to be violent. The Czechs had a Velvet Revolution, why can't we? Of course, our governments are structured very differently, but something must be done to stop this runaway train of destructive republican leadership.

[luvtheGWN]

25. Republicans -- at least over the last 30 years --

have clearly forgotten the notion that politics is the art of compromise. They do not engage in politics, but rather believe that their donors are the only ones they answer to.

[snort]

43. They are not in politics to be Politicians,

they're in it to make money.

[onecent]

7. Truly well said!!!

[Not Ruth]

8. That makes a lot of sense, but I learned in the Civil War, if you can't avoid fighting your brother

Then Russia and North Korea and the GOP will not fare better.

[jimmil]

9. I've lost all faith

in reality TV shows....

[bronxiteforever]

10. I totally agree with your brilliant point, unfortunately. (N/t)

[ProgressiveValue]

11. Bill Maher said he has taught us a great lesson.

All unspoken rules need to be written down. "To be self evident" is lost on this man. If it isn't written down explicitly as against the rules, he will do it.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

12. Opened my eyes to my naivety...

The rose colored glasses I wore are shattered. I knew that racism was still alive in America. But the depth of the hatred rocked my world. The nazi movement...I had no idea of how widespread it is. The hatred of anyone different than yourself...I knew it was there but had no idea of the intensity. My poor head is still swimming in those turgid waters.

I still have faith in American humanity. I believe when we overcome theses awful days we will emerge with a fuller, better understanding of ourselves. I have hope that the leaders of this country will open thier eyes to the people they represent and do the job that they were chosen to do.

[Scarsdale]

32. Do not expect

people like McConnell and Ryan and other gop to start doing what they were elected to do. They are bought and paid for by the wealthy. The rest of us do not count.

[Squinch]

13. NO! No, no, no! You can't lose faith! Yes. We are in a terrible time. Yes,

truly evil people are in charge, and they are being egged on by a legion of evil that has been quietly lurking in our towns and cities for years while we went about our business.

BUT also, the normal electorate got lazy in this election. Despite all the shit they throw at us, and that includes hacking, if we can get the electorate fired up - and I think the craven Republican cabal is helping us do that - then we can beat them.

There are hugely greater numbers of us than them.

There have ALWAYS been un-reconcilable factions within the US. We have NEVER given up against them. If you think it is bad now, think of what it was like when those people got off the bus in Montgomery and the dogs went at them. If they could withstand that and make progress against the evil people holding the dogs, then certainly WE can hold the line, and hold the faith, and make our way back from this.

There is a new-ish biography about the friendship between Churchill and Roosevelt. We should all read it. Churchill faced impossible odds, much worse than what we are in now. He never allowed himself to consider defeat at the hands of evil. And I am not using hyperbole when I use that word. They are powerful and they are awful. But we CANNOT let ourselves ever consider that they will ultimately destroy our ideals

[nocalflea]

22. You're speaking my language. Thank you.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. Prior to the advent of Trump...

Prior to the advent of Trump if I could have distilled what it means to be an American into a bumper sticker it would have been live and let live.

[Scarsdale]

37. Exactly.

My niece in the UK wrote that her grandaughter was studying racism at her school. The teacher thought the US had it controlled. Just before tRump ascended to his throne at the WH, I wrote her "Racism is alive and well in this country. Do not kid yourself" The gop is solely responsible for the outbreak of hatred, showing the entire world what the US is truly like. Most of us try to live in peace with everyone. A faction want discord and hatred to prevail. The gop goes about the business of enriching themselves, not caring who gets hurt, so long as their bank accounts stay padded. McConnell was well aware of the Russian money and dirty tricks when he said "The next president will nominate the new SC justice" HE KNEW who it would be, even knowing what a clown tRump is. When the Russian investigation is all done with, I hope it takes down the gop members who happily spent the Russian money, and screwed over the entire country, putting a maniac in the WH. The country is being destroyed, we have lost respect worldwide because of the gop. The office of the president will NEVER be the same, tRump has demeaned it.

[Squinch]

48. But what we have to learn is that this is not what it means at all to be an American.

We have a system that wants to value decency. We all know that there are many non-decent people out there. So what it means to be an American is to be someone constantly fighting to maintain decent behavior toward our fellow Americans.

That is in no way passive. It requires commitment and information. And many voters have become passive. There were more non-voters in the last election than voters.

The terrible people never forget to vote.

We have only to match their commitment because our numbers are far greater.

[RandomAccess]

14. The core problem is -

You can't negotiate with sociopaths, or anyone who insists on having things exclusively their way -- i.e., fascists (at least at heart if not in reality and by name).

It takes people of good will to make society work, and we've not built in any safeguards to prevent what we've got now at the top (aside from the Electoral College, which failed us miserably).

And if we don't get a handle on voter suppression tactics and hyperegerrymandering, we won't be able to prevent it at lower levels either (and we've got far too much of it at state and local levels).

[Scarsdale]

38. The gop showed their intentions

when they tried to destroy Obama Care behind closd doors. No democratic politicians were alllowed into the meetings, while they fashioned the useless Trump Care package. If it is so good, why are they exempting themselves from it? Why not enroll themselves and their families in it? Are they so special that they deserve cadillac healthcare for life? When are people going to WAKE UP and make themselves aware of what the gop is doing?

[RandomAccess]

40. Did you intend this for another thread?

I don't see the relevance to the discussion at hand.

[Scarsdale]

50. Just one example

of WHY the gop loves themselves this clown in the WH. They shove everyone aside, and make their own rules. They are proving that they are incapable of running the country when left to their own devices. They wanted tRump in, so they could destroy Obamacare. It was their #1 priority they talked about it for years. Then when push came to shove, they had nothing in mind to replace it!!

[nocalflea]

19. Call me pollyanna.

I'm having a different experience. The anti-Trump republicans I have met on social media believe in consensus and compromise and understand that they are integral to a healthy democracy. These folks want their country, OUR country back, too. This gives me hope.

The ugliness we are witnessing now is distressing but not insurmountable. We will put this corrupt administration and their allies in congress and elsewhere out of business. We will reclaim OUR country.
And we will do this with anti-Trump republicans by our side.

I refuse to let Trump, Putin, McConnell,Ryan or anyone else destroy my faith in my country, my faith in the bedrock principles this country was founded on and my faith in my fellow citizens.

Buck up, my friends. It's always darkest before the dawn.

[kairos12]

20. My belief in America died with the election

of Raygun.

[BlueMTexpat]

24. I am also profoundly saddened by

how the highest and most senior career officials in my former USG agency - the State Department - have either been forced out, have resigned or have been entirely disregarded, even "shunned."

Unfortunately, it is not only the State Department that has been affected in such a way. Our government may not ever recover.

Too many people STILL do not understand how important this is. These are career USG officials with priceless stores of knowledge and experience who could have been successes anywhere they chose to go. But they chose to serve our nation - despite whatever their political differences - and to work for the good of us all.

I will NEVER forgive the "purists" who still dare to call themselves "progressive," but who deliberately chose NOT to support Hillary Clinton in the GE for whatever flawed rationale and have not since regretted that.

As a result, I have come to hate the term "progressive" and am VERY proud to be what I always have been - a liberal.

[paleotn]

26. Well said. Same here.

[Sunlei]

28. me too, I'm a bit jealous of countries with mentally stable Leaders & now understand how Ivan the

terrible 'ruled' by fear and because of abusive cruel childhood-why he "got off" on outright cruelty to his 'citizens'.

To bad the huns 'lost' to Ivan..if they remain mounted they would have slaughtered Ivan.

Horses make my world go round Sunlei 2017

[Scarsdale]

41. It is astounding how

much damage has been done in the few short months since tRump was placed into the WH. The gop finally got the president they wanted, dumb as a rock, letting them do as they please behind the scenes. tRump alone could not have accomplished this much destruction without plenty of help. Putin sure picked himself a winner to destroy this country. The money he gave to the gop seems to be paying off very well for him.

[Sunlei]

44. Republicans love Their Leader who rules by fear. FU Republican party!

[SunSeeker]

33. Yep, very disappointed in my fellow Americans.

This is a shameful time for America.

[njhoneybadger]

35. Rethugs are hell bent on laissez faire capitalism

with a social agenda dictated by religious fanatics. What could possible go wrong.

[paleotn]

36. He who will not be named, the Republican establishment,

...their big money donors like the Kochs, Adelson, the Mercers, the Devos, the sycophants and political hacks like Atwater, Norquist and Rove, the sociopaths who've taken over Congress and state legislatures, the vote thieves and suppressors, the talk radio and faux news propagandists, et al., have had one goal in mind for 30+ years. To turn the US into a kleptocracy....a banana republic writ large.......and they hatched that idea when Putin and his cronies were still small time apparatchiks. It's just that the Russians had a much shorter row to hoe then their American counterparts. But all in all, they are the same.....grifters, liars and thieves. And our country, the once the bastion of liberty and democracy, after years of lies and manipulation, was finally stupid enough to let them take over.

[Expecting Rain]

39. If all it takes is the election of an odious pig like Donald Trump to break a person's attachment

to reason and problem-solving, and finding consensuses, then a reasonable third person might wonder how deep the affinity was to these principles in the first place?

And what the alternative? A world-view based on irrationality, opposition to problem-solving, and division?

All I can say is this liberal DEMOCRAT is holding firm to the values of our party. Donald Trump won't break my world-view. No way. My values are stronger than that.

Nor will I be drawn to the toxic alternative of embracing political irrationality.

Tough times test what people are made of.

Have courage good-people, the loss of hope isn't the way forward.

Stay strong in the face of nihilism and self-defeatism. We need all energies to resist Donald J Trump.

Time to get busy and elect DEMOCRATS!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. I am glad that you agree with me that Trump is an "odious pig."

I am glad that you agree with me that Trump is an "odious pig" and I sincerely and fervently hope that you agree with me that "odious pig(s) " should never be normalized and that it is incumbent upon all Democrats to oppose him by any legal means necessary, and those that refuse , for any reason, should be censured.

[Expecting Rain]

46. Your thinly veiled attack on Dianne Feinstein (repeated for the umteenth time) is based...

on a false premise of your own invention.

Smearing good Democrats with untruths show the bad-fruits that come when people reject "reason, problem-solving, and consensus" and adopt alternative world-views where rationality is discounted as a virtue.

By their fruits, ye shall know them.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

47. How did my heartfelt thread turn into a discussion of the senior senator from the Golden State?

If you want to discuss the senior senator it might make more sense to start a thread about her, am I right?

[Expecting Rain]

49. Due to the (how many is is now?) threads you've started in the past few days...

making the same allegations against her by name.

Do who think we are stupid and don't see through your game?

This is a forum designed to support DEMOCRATS.

If irrationality, antipathy to problem-solving, and seeking division are your thing, maybe there are other venues for venting your spleen?

Attacking DEMOCRATS on false premises isn't appreciated by this Democrat, one who knows we need to get busy fighting the real battles.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

58. It is really sad you are using this forum to besmirch my reputation.

I will be the better person, take the high road, and not respond in kind.

If irrationality, antipathy to problem-solving, and seeking division are your thing, maybe there are other venues for venting your spleen?

-Expecting Rain

You do know you have besmirched the reputation of the forty three members. and counting, of our community who have recommended this thread.

[Expecting Rain]

59. No one is respossible for your reputation other than yourself.

If you think smear campaigns on DEMOCRATS on a forum designed for supporters of DEMOCRATS are going to enhance your reputation, or that rejecting rationality, problem-solving, and consensus will do the same, then that's on you.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

60. My reputation is intact.

My reputation is intact:

No one is respossible for your reputation other than yourself.

If you think smear campaigns on DEMOCRATS on a forum designed for supporters of DEMOCRATS are going to enhance your reputation, or that rejecting rationality, problem-solving, and consensus will do the same, then that's on you.

-Expecting Rain

I have more recommendations in the past thirty days than you have total posts. I will leave it the denizens of this august community to divine if I represent the general will of DU or not. That being said I will take the higher road, be the better person, and not respond in kind.

And I would be remiss if I didn't thank you for bumping my thread.

[Expecting Rain]

62. If you feel that way, why the protests?

Yoy make a thread whose central premise is that you now (due to the election of Donald Trump) reject rationality, problem-solving, and consensus building—all core traditional liberal values.

If you post such sentiments on a board designed for liberal Democrats, you can not rightfully expect some of us not to object to the premises. Right?

We discuss ideologies and values on a discussion board made for that purpose. This liberal Democrat is not giving up on rationality, reject rationality, problem-solving, or consensus building.

You are free to express dissenting opinions.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

64. I feel like I am in some parallel universe.

You make a thread whose central premise is that you now (due to the election of Donald Trump) reject rationality, problem-solving, and consensus building—all core traditional liberal values.

Jean Jacques Rousseau was correct. Some people need to be "forced to be free". Deplorables need to be "forced to be free" from their nativism, anti-semitism, homophobia, transphobia, Islamophobia, misogyny, sexism, and all the other forms of bigotry they attach themselves to. Until they do they will be slaves to their bigotry. I want to emancipate them.

[Expecting Rain]

66. I'd suggest you explore why you feel that way.

If one slanders DEMOCRATS with untrue charges and then rejects core liberal values on a forum designed for liberal DEMOCRATS, and if one then expects all on such a forum will be in agreement with one's statements, then I'd suggest one's thinking would not be rational.

I'd also suggest those who openly and explicitly reject "rationality" often find themselves feeling the exist in "parallel universes," and for good reasons.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

67. I suggest you look to all ...

I suggest you look to all the recommendations my threads receive and see who does and who doesn't embody the general will of our wonderful and blessed community.

[Expecting Rain]

68. Personally, I don't consider "Recs" when approaching issues of morality...

the law, ethics, or politics.

An explicit rejection of rationality as a political value (as expressed in the OP) can get a million Recs, and I shall not be unmoved.

Just like a tree that's planted by the waters
I shall not be moved.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

70. I try my

I try my best to represent the general will of our beloved community at Democratic Underground. I am truly sad you demur .

[Expecting Rain]

71. You really do live in a parallel universe. LOL.

Nice try anyway.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

73. Perhaps

Expecting Rain (493 posts)
71. You really do live in a parallel universe. LOL.

Nice try anyway.

Perhaps your time would be better spent trying to become a valuable member of our beloved community instead of insulting random members of it.

[Expecting Rain]

74. I think advocating for reason, problem-solving, and consensus...

in politics is a great way of advancing the interests of this forum and advancing the interests of the DEMOCRATIC Party whose core positions flow out of an embrace of these core elements of our political philosophy.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

75. Round and round and round we go.

Please see post 73.


Thank you in advance.

[Expecting Rain]

77. Since you stated in your OP that Donald Trump has...

"killed my faith in reason, problem-solving, and finding consensuses," would you argue that others here on DU and members and leaders of the DEMOCRATIC Party would be better off following your lead?

Would you?

[Bradshaw3]

78. I think the OP was expressing that many of us feel from time to time

It doesn't make the points invalid, just put them into context. We all rant from time to time and they have tried to clarify. You seem to have an agenda that is based mostly on something other than the OP.

[Expecting Rain]

79. No, to the contrary...

My agenda is to support Democrats and the values we as liberals treat as core values. When either come under attack, I attempt to counter the attack.

Do you feel rejecting "rationality, problem-solving, and consensus" is a good track? I do not.

Divisionism, a lack of problem-solving, and irrationality are positions that hurt our cause IMO.

Don't you agree?

[Bradshaw3]

80. I totally agree

I just think there are times because this is such an abnormal time in our democracy that it makes one wonder where we are headed. Which is how I took the original post. Of course the only answer to that feeling is to fight harder, volunteer more, speak up more. I volunteered at our local Democratic office in a very red county. We probably won't elect any Democrats but we still have to try, across the board in every county and state to elect more Democrats. That is the only way for things to improve.

[Expecting Rain]

81. I applaud your efforts and am endeavoring to chart the same course.

I trust that few of us don't feel kicked in the gut that Donald Trump is president with the House and Senate are in Republican hands.

We are living through a horrifying time. And while it is natural to feel many impulses (anger, rage, the desire to disconnect from reality, etc) in order to be effective in the resistance of this Administration, and to win back the legislature, we need to be smart.

In my estimation, we also need to stick with core liberal values like rationality, problem-solving, and consensus building, as the opposite choices would have dire results.

I'm confident we are in agreement.

Fight on!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

82. ...

You seem to have an agenda that is based mostly on something other than the OP.

You are the only about the eighth poster to notice that.

[Scarsdale]

45. For starters

we need to overhaul the electoral system. The gop have gerrymandered, stripped voter rolls, closed voting precincts. Time to destroy all that obstruction. There HAS to be a better way. Hillary WON that election, yet we got stuck with the gop version of Forrest Gump. Correction, he would have had more humanity that tRump.

[Expecting Rain]

52. Seems like rational problem-solving at its best!

We have consensus.

I think these are good values to embrace firmly.

The alternative seems like the world-view of Trumpists, to be quite frank.

Where does a world-view based on irrationality, rejection of problem-solving, and divisionism lead?

To my mind, it leads to Trumpism or other such types of movements based on nasty demagoguery.

Stay strong DEMOCRATS!

[cilla4progress]

51. Sadly, me too.

Although I have always had an underlying sense of questioning america that caused me to feel like a misfit.

Could nazism type genocide happen here?
Why is unfettered capitalism heralded and worshipped?
Why is bigger always better?
Why does everything have to be "developed"?
What with the huge arsenal?
Why is it OK for US to have nuclear arms but no other country?

[Erda]

53. This great American experiment

Has always been imperfect. We have the freedom to hold our own beliefs and to pursue our own paths. This makes us imperfect or perfect, depending on how you see it.

Recently, though, we have not effectively counter-balanced ideas that have been mainstreamed like "our government is bad and should be drowned in a bathtub;" or "to compromise is a sign of weakness and a betrayal of party;" or "to win at all costs is everything, whether by cheating, denying others their rights, stealing, gerrymandering." We accept brainwashing through propaganda and constant repetition, or destructive musical lyrics or visual images, thinking these will not harm impressionable minds. We admire rudeness now, and a lack of manners. We think proper language is unnecessary and are gradually returning to symbols, not seeing that language enables us to nuance thought. We like excessive wealth and those who monopolize the world's resources. Of course, not everyone accepts these ideas as constructive, but the loudest voices do.

But when that kick-in-the-pants comes, it's hard not to awaken.

And that's what I think we are doing now. We are awakening. And when we have done that in sufficient numbers we will mobilize and we will win.

We may have forgotten how difficult creating a democracy for all, is. We have never fully achieved that but we can, even though the changes might be gradual and take time. I hope we never give up. Our democracy is worth fighting for.

[hfojvt]

54. so you saw a lot of consensus building from 2010 to 2016?

And you never believed that some Trump supporters are deplorable?

For myself, I look at an example of bipartisanship - when the Democratic Party voted to make most of the Bush tax cuts permanent, and I consider THAT to be a betrayal, and NOT a good thing at all. But yay, it was bi-partisan. In the Senate 49 Democrats and 40 Republicans voted for it, whereas only 3 Democrats and 5 Republicans voted against it (ATRA that is). In the House it was "85 Republicans and 172 Democrats voted in favor while 151 Republicans and 16 Democrats were opposed." (according to wiki)

Well, thank goodness that large parts of BOTH parties can agree on permanent tax cuts for the rich. That sure helps me to believe in the golden rule - those who have the gold make the rules.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

63. My friend.

People of good will can debate the size of government, the nominal tax rates, and what is the best way to ensure a minimal standard of living for our fellow Americans. What has left me crestfallen is that I have discovered ,or more accurately been forced to acknowledge, that there is not an insignificant minority of Americans who don't see African Americans, Muslims, Hispanics, and glbtq people as human.

[hfojvt]

76. that sounds like hyperbole to me

What is a "not insignificant minority"? Is 3% significant? Is 8% significant?

I see the divide going the other way. "My" own side seems to be unable to make their case. My side apparently favors open borders. When other people question that - they are accused of "not seeing Hispanics as human". Often we seem to not see them as human. Instead we see them (the Trump supporters, the right wing, etc.) as deplorables, as racist monsters.

Admittedly there really are SOME deplorables and racist monsters in this country. Too many, but at the same time probably not more than 5% of the population.

There is a larger percentage who really are NOT "people of good will". Lots of them seem to get elected to public office, but they are on both sides. (on many sides)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

84. Nine percent of Americans say neo-Nazi or white supremacist views are acceptable: survey

Nine percent of Americans say neo-Nazi and white supremacist views are acceptable, according to a new survey conducted in the days after the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville.

While an overwhelming 83% of Americans said they opposed the far-right ideology, 9% said it was acceptable. The remaining 8% said they had no opinion, according to a Washington Post- ABC poll.


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/percent-americans-neo-nazis-acceptable-survey-article-1.3430885

If nine percent of Americans will admit to a live caller that "Nazi or white supremacist views are acceptable " it's seems fair to assume that number is higher. How high ? The survey taker would need to be more subtle.

[hfojvt]

85. Do you think that saying a view is "acceptable"

means "I agree with that view"? That looks like a different question to me.

Are you a Catholic?
Do you find Catholic views acceptable?
Are you a Muslim?
Do you find Muslim views acceptable?
Are you a Republican?
Do you find Republican views acceptable?

What does it mean to say that a view is unacceptable? That people who hold such views should be taken to room 101 until they recant?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

86. Holding Neo-Nazis and white supremacist views are unacceptable.

[hfojvt]

87. you've been telling me you're a genius since you were 17

Are you reeling in the years?

I imagine you go even further than that.

Probably to you even "to believe that white supremacist views are not unacceptable" is also unacceptable.

and "to believe that white supremacist views are not unacceptable is not unacceptable" is also unacceptable.

And what do you mean by that? It should be a thoughtcrime?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

88. A person is free to believe whatever he or she wants.

I just find it astounding that some people feel it's acceptable to hold certain beliefs. What's next from these people ? Lebensunwertes Leben ? They said neo-Nazi views are acceptable. That seems to be a logical progression. If people believe they have dominion over other people by dint of race then it's logical to infer they believe can dispose of them as they want.

It seems to be two different questions. Does a person have a right to believe horrible things ? Yes. Is it acceptable to believe horrible things ? No.

[hfojvt]

89. I don't see how those two statements reconcile

"a person has a right to believe whatever he or she wants"
and
"some beliefs are unacceptable"

If it is not acceptable then how can a person have the right. To say it is unacceptable, to me, sounds like you are saying they do not have a right.

acceptable does not mean "correct". To me it means, "I can tolerate their belief (whether I agree with it or not)"

They said Neo Nazi or white supremacist views are acceptable. That is not the same thing as saying they agree with those views. Not to me anyway. If people have a right to believe horrible things then it must be acceptable to believe horrible things. Otherwise what does unacceptable mean?

Personally I think they should have asked a different question.

[ismnotwasm]

56. Not me

He's the ultimate expression of all my fears as a feminist. Those fuckers were always out there.

[0rganism]

61. he showed me that our electorate is more fickle and our institutions more fragile than i'd believed

we didn't make nearly as much progress in the 20th century as i previously thought, and a lot of what we did accomplish appears easily unraveled. our safety is nothing more than a reassuring fiction, our economy a gigantic Ponzi scheme, our infrastructure a convenient Potemkin village. we will not fix this damage, the system itself is locked into a cycle of self-cannibalism with no remaining mechanism for self-correction or recovery. the forms may persist for another 30 years or so, but meaning and purpose have been permanently compromised. we don't get to just walk away from this one.

[nolabels]

65. Reasoning it what is used when things don't work as they normally do

A simple concept would be to take those parts that are legitimate stable parts and build a larger picture where everything can fit

[IAMSPARTICUS]

69. but they have all the guns.

have you seen those "patriots" with all their weaponry? holy shit. they will NOT go away peacefully. they've been itching to use their toys for a long time and they will have an excuse if drumpf is removed from office. I sure hope the army holds and doesn't go to their side. good luck everyone.

[lunamagica]

72. Great post DSB. You have explained so well what I feel

[DemocratSinceBirth]

83. My postscript as well.

P.S. I hate the red edits. They are aesthetically displeasing but I wanted to add this edit: If I had to write my original post over I would have written it a bit differently. There can no be no compromise with evil. It must be defeated. I am hopeful. There will be no consensus to be reached with the Deplorables. They must be defeated, albeit peacefully, and they will be. There are more of us than there are of them.