Bernie Sanders Discussing Immigration Work Authorization Programs With Lou Dobbs

[TomCADem]

Here is Bernie explaining to Lou Dobbs why he was opposed to work authorization programs. Isn't Donald Trump using the same reasoning to justify his crack down on programs like DACA?

https://www.vox.com/2016/2/12/10981234/bernie-sanders-lou-dobbs

SANDERS: Of course there is hope that we can change that. And I think there are a growing number of Americans who understand that there's something wrong when the middle class in this country continues to shrink despite a huge increase in worker productivity, poverty continues to increase. Since Bush has been president, 5 million more Americans have slipped into poverty. Six million Americans more have lost their health insurance and the gap between the rich and everybody else is growing wider.

So when President Bush tells you how great the economy is doing, what he is really saying is that the CEOs of large multinationals are doing very, very well. He's kind of ignoring the economic reality of everybody else and that gets us to the immigration issue.

If poverty is increasing and if wages are going down, I don't know why we need millions of people to be coming into this country as guest workers who will work for lower wages than American workers and drive wages down even lower than they are now.

* * *

DOBBS: Those are all industries in which wages are declining. I don't hear that discussed on the Senate floor by the proponents of this amnesty legislation.

SANDERS: That's right. They have no good response. I read something today that a lot of people coming into this country are coming in as lifeguards. I guess we can't find - that's right. We can't American workers to work as lifeguards. And the H1B program has teachers, elementary school teachers. Well, you know.

DOBBS: And that H1B program, we got to watch Senator Ted Kennedy watch there with the sole witness being one Bill Gates, the world's richest man, telling him he wanted unlimited H1B visas, obviously uninformed to the fact that seven out of 10 visas under the H1B program goes to Indian corporations that are outsourcing those positions to American corporations in this country and that four out of five of those jobs that are supposed to be high-skilled jobs are actually category one jobs which is low skill.

SANDERS: Well, you raise a good point, in that this whole immigration guest worker program is the other side of the trade issue. On one hand you have large multinationals trying to shut down plants in the America, move to China and on the other hand you have the service industry bringing in low wage workers from abroad. The result is the same — middle class gets shrunken and wages go down.

[RandySF]

1. With Lou Dobbs? I'll pass.

[BannonsLiver]

41. Why not just do the Alex Jones show and get on with it.

They're basically indistinguishable at this point.

[beam me up scottie]

2. Offs. Bernie has been speaking out for Dreamers for years.

I knew someone would use Trump's despicable decision as an opportunity to pretend Sanders opposes immigration and the DREAM act.

Bernie Sanders the SON of an immigrant on the DREAM act in 2013:

This daughter of an immigrant resents being used to settle old scores on DU. Senator Sanders is not the enemy.

[TomCADem]

7. This Just Shows That Even Democrats and "Progressives" Will Attack Immigrants...

...as stealing jobs from "Real Americans."

I am glad that Bernie came around and reversed his stance on allowing immigrants to work in the U.S., rather than promoting a permanent underclass. Still, the rhetoric and reasoning that Bernie used during his interview with Lou Dobbs is similar to that used by Donald Trump. These are just code words for racism, xenophobia and scapegoating toward immigrants.

People of color need to hold Democrats, as well as Republicans, accountable, because it is too easy to try to ride the "populist" waive by blaming immigrants and trade with foreign countries for America's problems.

[beam me up scottie]

9. He never opposed allowing immigrants to work. The SPLC likened Bush's bill to slavery.

Close to Slavery: Guestworker Programs in the United States

This report, updated in February 2013, details the systematic exploitation of foreign workers who come to this country for temporary jobs under the nation's H-2 guestworker program. Based on dozens of legal cases immigration and interviews with thousands of guestworkers, it documents how guestworkers are routinely cheated out of wages, forced to mortgage their futures to obtain low-wage, temporary jobs, and held virtually captive by employers.

In the debate over comprehensive immigration reform, various policymakers and business groups have suggested that Congress create a new or expanded guestworker program to ensure a steady supply of foreign workers for industries that rely on an abundance of cheap labor.

Congress should look before it leaps. The current H-2 program, which provides temporary farmworkers and non-farm laborers for a variety of U.S. industries, is rife with labor and human rights violations committed by employers who prey on a highly vulnerable workforce. It harms the interests of U.S. workers, as well, by undercutting wages and working conditions for those who labor at the lowest rungs of the economic ladder. This program should not be expanded or used as a model for immigration reform.

https://www.splcenter.org/20130218/close-slavery-guestworker-programs-united-states

Bernie's reason for opposing the bill:

I voted against that piece of legislation (the 2007 immigration reform bill) because it had guest-worker provisions in it which the Southern Poverty Law Center talked about being semi-slavery. Guest workers are coming in, they're working under terrible conditions, but if they stand up for their rights, they're thrown out of the country. I was not the only progressive to vote against that legislation for that reason.

So he was actually opposing a permanent underclass.

It was also opposed by immigrant groups:

Bush Immigration Proposal Falls Short President's plan fails to outline a comprehensive bill that is workable, fair and just

Washington, DC -- The League of United Latin American Citizens urges President Bush to work with the bipartisan coalition of House and Senate leaders who have introduced comprehensive immigration reform legislation that is workable and honors our country's tradition as a nation of immigrants.

As currently worded, President Bush's plan would unnecessarily split families and create a permanent underclass of temporary workers with no prospects of fully participating in U.S. society. Under the President's proposal fines and fees for regularizing one's status would grow to well over $20,000 per person making it unlikely that low income workers would ever be able to become permanent legal residents.

The American people support reasonable immigration reform that would provide a realistic pathway for hardworking immigrants to become permanent legal residents provided they undergo a background check, pay a fine, pay back taxes, learn English and obey the law. Americans also want to encourage future immigrant workers to come in legally and to help reunite families waiting for a visa for their loved ones.

"We commend the President for reaffirming his support of comprehensive immigration reform in Yuma, Arizona today," said LULAC National President Rosa Rosales. "Unfortunately, the President's proposal falls short of his commitment to providing a realistic pathway for hard working immigrants to have a shot at the American Dream."

Under the President's proposal, whole visa categories for close family members are eliminated. The proposal creates new Y and Z visa categories requiring applicants to pay fines from $3,500 every three years in order to work and $10,000 to apply for permanent status. These new categories expressly forbid family members to accompany any Z or Y visa holder. In addition, visa holders who choose to apply for permanent status at any time would have to return to their country of origin and get in back of the line regardless of the number of years they have worked legally or the thousands paid in fines.

LULAC does agree with President Bush that comprehensive immigration reform should be passed this year and we encourage him to keep pushing Congress to send a bill to him this year. The League of United Latin American Citizens, the oldest and largest Hispanic membership organization in the country, advances the economic conditions, educational attainment, political influence, health and civil rights of Hispanic Americans through community-based programs operating at more than 700 LULAC councils nationwide.

Local contact -Domingo Garcia 214-941-XXXX

http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/you-know-who-likes-the-presidents-immigration-reform-plan-nobody-thats-who-7141760

You're welcome!

[BainsBane]

20. and the two Immigration reform bills of 1996?

https://votesmart.org/candidate/key-votes/27110/bernie-sanders/40/immigration#.Wazv8rKGPIX

And this? http://www.latintimes.com/bernie-sanders-supported-border-vigilante-minutemen-group-symbolic-2006-vote-357705

The SPLC calls the Minutemen a hate group.

[R B Garr]

48. Wow, that sure says a lot. A consistent message from his behavior and his

rhetoric.

[TomCADem]

49. It is the same anti-immigration positions, but dressed up in populist rhetoric...

...even on the left, there is a temptation to try to use coded language to appeal white voter fears of immigrants.

Glad that Bernie has had a recent change of heart, but for a long time, he was opposed work authorization programs, not based on concern for immigrants, but on the ground that immigrants are taking jobs away from Americans.

[lunamagica]

3. I remember that. Sanders and Dobbs were like two peas in a pod. agreeing with everything.

It was so, so disgusting it makes me want to vomit just remembering it.

[BainsBane]

6. and others agreed with them.

[BainsBane]

4. I always think it useful to examine candidates voting records

before voting. Immigration is one of the areas I look at.

[beam me up scottie]

5. Btw Bernie cosponsored the DREAM act.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/112th-congress/senate-bill/952/all-info

[TomCADem]

8. So when Bernie told Lou Dobbs...

"I don't know why we need millions of people to be coming into this country as guest workers who will work for lower wages than American workers and drive wages down even lower than they are now."

Was he mistaken, and does his sponsorship of the Dream Act represent an evolution of his thinking?

Or, is support for work permits under either the Dream Act or DACA somehow consistent with his prior views on immigration?

I think it is far more suspect to say that Bernie's views have not evolved, then it is to acknowledge that Bernie has come around to a fairer, more practical, and humane view, as opposed to scapegoating undocumented immigrants for the economic challenges faced by workers in our country.

[beam me up scottie]

10. He opposed it because it created a permanent underclass of workers.

I voted against that piece of legislation (the 2007 immigration reform bill) because it had guest-worker provisions in it which the Southern Poverty Law Center talked about being semi-slavery. Guest workers are coming in, they're working under terrible conditions, but if they stand up for their rights, they're thrown out of the country. I was not the only progressive to vote against that legislation for that reason.

So he didn't need to evolve.

And he wasn't the only progressive to vote against it, here's Barbara Boxer:

I wish to make it clear that this guest worker program has
nothing to do with the agricultural jobs program that is in this bill
that I support, a bill that has been vetted at hearings. We know there
is a need. There seems to be very little, if any, disagreement on that
portion of the bill.

https://www.congress.gov/congressional-record/2007/05/22/senate-section/article/S6430-2

But this is a generalized guest worker program. I did hear the
comments of Senator Sanders. I wish to associate myself with his
remarks. Senator Sanders makes a brilliant point. How many times have
we seen workers huddled in a corner with tears in their eyes because
they received a notice that they have been laid off--not by the tens,
not by the twenties, not by the hundreds but sometimes by the thousands. Big employers in this
country seemingly with nowhere to turn tell us: Oh, my goodness, we
have to compete, we have to pare down our employment, and they lay
people off. Those same employers are now begging for a guest worker
program. Why? You have to ask yourself why? I do have a degree in
economics, but I would say that was a long time ago. You don't need a
degree in economics to understand what is at stake. These large
employers want a large, cheap labor pool that they can draw from. My
colleagues on the other side say: Oh, we are protecting those workers.
Oh, they will be fine.

Do you have any proof he ever opposed immigrant workers?

[George II]

11. "Do you have any proof he ever opposed immigrant workers?"

As you noted, he voted against the bill.

[beam me up scottie]

12. Because Bush's bill treated workers like slaves. I already covered that, George.

See my other posts, the Republican bull created an immigrant underclass. Bernie never opposed immigrants coming here to work, he is the SON of an immigrant after all.

And let's not forget that immigrants groups also opposed Bush's bill for the same reason as the SPLC and Bernie.

You're welcome!

[George II]

13. Is that an objective interpretation? I'm the "SON of an immigrant" myself. It was a good bill.

[beam me up scottie]

14. No, as the DAUGHTER of an immigrant I say it wasn't.

The SPLC and LULAC agreed with Bernie and with me that it was immoral to treat immigrants like slaves. You are free to disagree with them of course.




Edited to fix typo

[George II]

15. Praise the Lord. Got a link?

LUPAC?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lupac

Lupac (Romanian: Lupac; Croatian: Lupak; Hungarian: Kiskrassó) is a commune in Caraș-Severin County, Banat, Romania. In 2002, its population numbered 3,023 people and was mostly made up of Krashovani Croats.

Which "LUPAC" are you referring to?

[LeftInTX]

19. LULAC - League of United Latin American Citizens

[lunamagica]

27. So. Ted Kennedy was for treating immigrants as slaves? Who would have thought

[George II]

34. He seems to have an obscure reason for many of his votes, aye or nay....

....that could be considered counter-progressive.

Nay - This one because it would have treated workers like slaves (which is false)
Aye - The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act because it included the Violence Against Women Act
Nay - The Brady Bill because some of his constituents are hunters

I wish I could find a video of Roseanne Roseannadanna.

The bottom line for this discussion is that he HAS opposed immigrant workers as has been noted in this thread.

[R B Garr]

44. +1000, he voted no and then backed up his no vote with extensive

explanations as to why and how immigrant workers would take American jobs.

[George II]

45. Not only that, he claimed that immigrant workers would result in lower wages for Americans...

See Post #5 above:

"I don't know why we need millions of people to be coming into this country as guest workers who will work for lower wages than American workers and drive wages down even lower than they are now."

"Guest workers" would be a variation of the H1-B Visa program, which has been highly successful and lauded by businesses from coast to coast. Are they next perhaps?

[R B Garr]

47. Could be, since he looks to stick with his scripted lines about the middle class, American

workers as an explanation for everything, and immigrant workers don't fit that world view apparently. That's the trouble with having set talking points that don't deviate. When your votes match that rhetoric, it's hard to defend anything else about it because the actions don't match the words.

[TomCADem]

50. Jeff Sessions: DACA "denied jobs to hundreds of thousands of Americans..."

It seems like Jeff Sessions today was cribbing from Bernie's old talking points.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/9/5/16255436/lies-jeff-sessions-daca

DREAMers took jobs from “hundreds of thousands of Americans”
“It denied jobs to hundreds of thousands of Americans by allowing those same illegal aliens to take those jobs.”

This is almost certainly false. The economic evidence is very clear that immigration is a huge boon for Americans as a whole. In part that’s because of complementarity: Immigrants don’t take jobs from Americans; they let Americans take higher-skill jobs (ones requiring English language fluency, for instance) and complement their labor. America’s past experience confirms this. When the US ended a guest worker program that let Mexican laborers work on US farms in the early 1960s, wages for US farm workers didn’t rise at all, nor did more Americans get jobs. Companies simply bought more machines to make up for the lost workers.

[R B Garr]

51. Yikes, they do use the same rhetoric. This has been a great thread. Very illuminating, and

I agree with your comments about the "dressed up populist rhetoric." Nailed it.

[TomCADem]

46. Doesn't Putting Millions In Fear of Deportation Create a Permanent Underclass?

In other words, are you saying that Trump's proposal to end DACA and cause immigrants to fear deportation is somehow beneficial to them?

[George II]

33. +1,000,000

[SunSeeker]

16. "I read something today that a lot of people coming into this country are coming in as lifeguards."

No Bernie, undocumented immigrants are not streaming over the border to take lifeguard jobs.

[BainsBane]

17. . .

[kcr]

18. My god

It's why I can't stand to hear how amazing and awesome he is. What the fuck.

[Jamaal510]

22. Lifeguards?!

[Hassin Bin Sober]

23. Sure they are. Look it up.

Using guest worker J1 visas to fill resorts, restaurants and beaches at low wages and tax avoidance is a real thing.

With youth unemployment at astronomical levels, we don't need to bring in 130,000 guest workers to fill Sumer jobs. Well not unless you don't want to pay above minimum wage and pay the employer portion of employment taxes that is.

What better way to get slave err I mean "cultural exchange" labor than to have the state department do your recruiting and send you vulnerable employees you can pay less than minimum wage after you deduct fees. Nice and legal, see?

Staffing companies have been pushing cheap overseas labor based on the payroll taxes alone.

A program started during the Cold War as a cultural exchange tool turned in to a tool for large corporations to hire slave labor.

Here's what The Southern Poverty Law Center has to say about it:

The undeniable conclusion is that these J-1 programs, an initiative once envisioned as a tool of diplomacy, has become little more than a source of cheap labor for employers.

https://www.splcenter.org/20140202/culture-shock-exploitation-j-1-cultural-exchange-workers

Executive Summary

They come to experience all America has to offer.

They hope to pay their way by working a summer job as they experience a new culture and learn English. They work in our hotels, restaurants, fast-food chains and amusement parks. They work for companies with names synonymous with the United States: McDonald’s, Disney, Hilton and more.

They’re J-1 guest workers.

Based on the SPLC’s investigation, it is clear, in fact, that the program suffers from the same flaws as other guest worker programs. The SPLC has represented thousands of guest workers in lawsuits to protect them from wage theft, discrimination, illegal recruitment practices and other abuses. As evidenced by these lawsuits, temporary foreign workers are extremely vulnerable to recruitment and workplace abuse.

The J-1 program, however, is much larger than the nation’s other major low-wage guest worker program — the H-2 temporary worker program. But the J-1 program lacks many of that program’s worker protections. Perhaps more troubling is that the U.S. government and its sponsors globally advertise the J-1 program as a cultural exchange — not a temporary work program — even though that is clearly what the Summer Work Travel and the Trainee and Intern categories have become.

[kcr]

24. You linked to the SPLC

And explained something intelligently. That's not what Bernie Sanders did. At all.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

25. I'm sure Bernie would have linked to the SPLC ...

.... but it was A FUCKING INTERVIEW.

Sometimes he makes the mistake of assuming the listener is somewhat knowledgeable and not pig ignorant of the issues.

Also, I'm sure he didn't anticipate the interview to be used as some disgustingly cheap way to get a petty cheap shot in on a day 800,000 human beings just got put on the chopping block.

[kcr]

28. Oh, I'm sure it was a mistake

Someone who doen't even bother to argue with this: "These special interests, and you and I have talked about this. It is now so blatant, so overt, that only those who would refuse to see could deny that both the Democratic and Republican parties are owned lock, stock and barrel by corporate America and special interests including in the amnesty legislation, socioethnic- centric interest groups who really have very little regard for the traditions of this country, the values of this country or the constituents."

Bernie just lets that go. And the comment about lifeguards was in response to a comment Dobs made about illegal aliens.


But, yeah, I'm sure it was just a little oopsie.

[SunSeeker]

26. I worked with lifeguards up and down the CA coast. They were not J1 visa holders.

Your article talks about resort workers, who have long been largely cheap foreign labor, like at Mar-a-Lago and on cruise ships. County and state beach lifeguards are not resort workers nor guest workers. They are government employees who are thoroughly vetted and well trained. All were US citizens, most born and raised in the community where they worked. Their jobs were not being snapped up by immigrants. The main threat to their jobs were government budget cuts.

Sanders was repeating a false story on the show of an anti-immigrant bigot.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

29. Well that settles it. You worked with some lifeguards.

A twenty second google search shows your anecdotal experience doesn't mean diddly.

Google "j1 visa lifeguard " it's a real thing. Staffing companies that deal exclusively with foreign workers to staff pools.

So what now? Are we supposed to have a day long debate about how Bernie should have specified the type of lifeguard he was referring to? Was he supposed to check with you to see what a "real" lifeguard is?

I can just picture him, with his Brooklyn accent, saying "and what I mean here, Lou, is condominium and resort and local pool lifeguards. Not lifeguards that some random dude on the internet understands a "lifeguard" position to be. Let me make that,,,perfectly clear"

Visa Processing Issues Could Close Local Pools
by Katherine Berko May 31, 2017 at 2:30 pm56 Comments

https://www.arlnow.com/2017/05/31/visa-processing-issues-could-close-local-pools/

Local pools could be at risk of indefinite closure due to visa processing issues for potential lifeguards.

According to a resident of the Barkley Condominiums (1016 S. Wayne Street), on Sunday a notice posted to the building’s bulletin board said the pool would be closed indefinitely, due to the pool service company having difficulty getting lifeguards into the country because of visa issues.
The notice also reportedly said the issues would hopefully be resolved within the next week, but that timing was unclear. Another source who lives in the building confirmed the pool’s closure. The condo’s property manager declined to comment.
Many local pools rely on young, foreign lifeguards who come to the U.S. during summer months through a non-immigrant visa program.
A press release on May 26 from the Association of Pool & Spa Professionals explained that pools in Mid-Atlantic states might experience delayed openings because of regulatory changes. The Mid-Atlantic is primarily affected because in this region, lifeguards must be present for most commercial or condo pools to be used.
“The pools affected are those run by pool management companies who recruit lifeguards from certain countries through the U.S. State Department’s J-1 Summer Work Travel Program,” the press release said.
In the meantime, the association is trying to recruit lifeguards from local high schools and colleges so that people can still cool off in the summer months.

Gee, how terrible for them. A business has to recruit their own help and *GASP* pay payroll taxes and maybe above minimum wage!!!!

[SunSeeker]

31. When you say lifeguards, people think of beach lifeguards, not resorts.

And I agree, these resorts have no justification for hiring foreign workers. Mar-a-Lago should not be hiring foreign workers for anything there.

[QC]

42. In my part of Florida, the hotels and resorts have lots and lots of

workers from Eastern Europe and Russia. They are lured here with promises of glamorous, high-paying jobs but soon find themselves working long hours for such low pay that they have to pack apartments to twice their capacity to survive. It's a raw deal for them but great for the owners, who would otherwise have to be somewhat less exploitative.

It's strange to see people here defending this kind of thing--I had no idea that indentured servitude was a liberal ideal.

[treestar]

36. Problem there is that it is an exchange

program. Americans get to go abroad to work similarly. So youth unemployment would not be helped by scrapping this program. You'd just lose those Americans their jobs abroad. And stop the cultural exchange. These jobs are not so numerous that they have some huge effect.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

37. Baloney.

[treestar]

38. why would other countries

continue to welcome Americans for the same reasons?

https://exchanges.state.gov/us/find-programs

They would shut down their programs that US citizens can take advantage of.

Off all arguments about "stealing American jobs" this is the dumbest.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

39. Working night shift at a Hershey packing plant for less than minimum wage.

Yeah, nice and "cultural" see?

Look, I'm not going to argue with you if you think exploiting kids to work at McDonald's or in packing plants for less an minimum wage is a great idea. I'll leave you to it.

I only entered this thread when a few of our locals bristled at the idea of foreign worker "lifeguards"

They can backpedal, backtrack, and backfill their silly guffaws all they need to do to make themselves feel better.

And btw, of all the guest worker programs, this is the largest.

[murielm99]

21. My daughter tells me that Canada

has a guest worker program. Is this right? Does anyone know anything about this?

I hope some of the Bernie loyalists take the time to read this exchange. It is interesting, to say the least.

[RandySF]

30. Is it not at least a little embarrassing that...

with nukes on the Korean Peninsula, massive flooding in Texas and 780k more people threatened with deportation, Bernie thread still generate the most activity? Are we sure there's no "cult of personality" here on the left side?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. The challenge is we must never ever even give the appearance of giving succor to our enemies...

The challenge is we must never ever even give the appearance of giving succor to our enemies and Lou Dobbs and his coterie of nativists are our enemies.


Lou Dobbs and the nativists are a threat, "no one should cling to a threat no matter what ... those threatened will see it as betrayal. "

[clu]

35. as a meztizo

IMO the best way to fight illegal immigration is to make Mexico itself stronger. end the drug war and lets see what falls into place. we don't have an unlimited budget and we do need to keep benefits for some people here. is this an issue on which democrats should concede to the right to pass workable legislation?

[BannonsLiver]

40. Bernie sure does have a lot of sides to him doesn't he?

Lots and lots of nuance.

BTW, why not just do the Alex Jones show? Same fucking difference. Hell, Dobbs might even be crazier when you get down to it.

[Adrahil]

43. The data does not support Bernie's opinion.

There have not been a lot of studies done, but those that HAVE been done show that immigration actually INCREASES wages for every segment, except those who drop out of high school.

Bernie is theory-crafting here, and he doesn't have any actual data to back him up.