General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsJust curious: What exactly does a libertarian's version of disaster relief look like?
Because I would really would like to know that.
unblock
(52,195 posts)Tommy_Carcetti
(43,173 posts)struggle4progress
(118,274 posts)CurtEastPoint
(18,638 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)his true plans as much as possible, said that the only functions of government were protection of self and property, and he held the door open for from fraud as part of that. No surprise that a billionaire thinks government protection of property and self are needed, and all that are needed. He'd call the fire department, no hypocrisy for him at all.
We need to accept that true libertarianism, by personality, really means we should all take care of ourselves. Period. Psychologists studying libertarian personality type say their main, and sometimes only principle, is personal freedom, elevated above all other principles. And they are very different from both conservatives and liberals in being mostly or entirely devoid of altruism.
I suspect Paul Ryan is probably a true libertarian by nature, which would mean he'd never throw himself into a raging river to save someone else, or be willing to contribute to employees unemployment funds as a wealthy employer. To libertarians, that's unworthy behavior for weaklings. I suspect the Kochs might be fascist-leaners for whom spitting on laws has been fun and profitable.
But for both real libertarians and fascist cum libertarian billionaires lacking in personal insight, the iinevitable ultimate end game, that public figures don't dare mention, would be a massive die-off of the weak and unworthy, producing a far stronger, more efficient (and scary heartless) brave new society.
Such a nice face, too. Koch-approved. When he comes through, of course.
Wounded Bear
(58,641 posts)We are all in the gene pool and "weaklings" should not be allowed to continue in it.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)a giant "cleansing" of those they see as unworthy is the only possible end of their policies. With stage IV kidney failure, you couldn't purchase your own individual insurance on the free market and can no longer pay for dialysis three times a week yourself after it's rendered you destitute? You still have the personal freedom to die.
And it is libertarians' idea of morality to let you. Because any duty to help others would conflict with their ideal of complete personal freedom. They would feel it was for the good of society, but only incidentally as a byproduct of their virtue.
A duty to serve society, aka the state, is a fascist notion. Funny how well they fit together, though. Libertarian freedoms when young, protection for fortunes amassed as part of a business ruling class in a fascist society for elder years and descendents. How better than that for our new billionaire class to protect the wealth they amass?
FSogol
(45,473 posts)April 21, 2004 | Issue 4016
CHEYENNE, WYAfter attempting to contain a living-room blaze started by a cigarette, card-carrying Libertarian Trent Jacobs reluctantly called the Cheyenne Fire Department Monday. "Although the community would do better to rely on an efficient, free-market fire-fighting service, the fact is that expensive, unnecessary public fire departments do exist," Jacobs said. "Also, my house was burning down." Jacobs did not offer to pay firefighters for their service.
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/32825
genxlib
(5,524 posts)It looks a lot like the Cajun Navy that got lots of press last few weeks.
No mention about what happens in the months and years to follow. I am sure that several million gofundme pages should do the trick, right?
(If I recall from other posts, you are Broward County. Boca here. Stay safe. This is a serious motherfucker)
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)When disaster hits me of course it is appropriate for government to help.
When it hits someone else, fuck them. Why should I help pay for their poor decisions?
Libertarian in a nutshell.
marybourg
(12,614 posts)nt
byronius
(7,392 posts)Except the Chinese also invade afterwards.
Their visions of a loose collective of highly-armed city states built with slave labor and featuring child sex parlors demonstrates a bizarre lack of concern for the general fact that any neighboring non-libertarian state could quite easily conquer their little fake paradise.
At least they didn't pay no taxes! Well, not until after the conquering.
Libertarianism is possibly the weakest, most pathetic idea to ever survive the first semester of college. It is a fairy tale, told by idiots, full of sound and fury and signifying -- collapse.
Coventina
(27,100 posts)I've tried and tried, but they just don't get it.
I love that:
Libertarianism is possibly the weakest, most pathetic idea to ever survive the first semester of college. It is a fairy tale, told by idiots, full of sound and fury and signifying -- collapse.
byronius
(7,392 posts)On and on he blathered, Randi asking questions and fleshing out the details. Similar to how Sam Seder does it -- giving them all the rope they need.
In the end, Randi asked what would happen to the city-states should the Chinese invade.
'Well, that's up to the Chinese,' he answered. Over the next sixty seconds he revealed the greatest single threat to the libertarian method, a spectre against which they have absolutely no defense -- cooperative society. It's axiomatic that libertarian city-states (a) eventually fail on their own, or (b) are easily defeated and consumed by anyone who cooperates.
It's also the last refuge of pure racism, pederasty, and the quaint idea that people should be owned if possible. Hey, freedom! Until the Chinese show up, that is. Or anyone else. Libertarian Paradise America would be conquerable by almost any small group of Evil Cooperators. That's why there is no Libertarian Paradise, period. Such foolishness.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)Humanity has tens of thousands of years of history since the Stone-Age. The first cities were founded about 10,000 years ago. The first kingdoms and nations a few thousand years ago.
How come that nobody has ever tried a libertarian way of life? Why does history not tell of them? Could it be that they were all... defeated by others with superior forms of society?
jmowreader
(50,552 posts)Somalia is the archetype for libertarianism in action.
annabanana
(52,791 posts)ProfessorPlum
(11,254 posts)after hearing all the arguments, I've come to exactly the same conclusions. Madness.
haele
(12,646 posts)In general, Liberatarians are notoriously hypocritical when it comes to claiming their "just due" for relief and suing for pain and suffering when taking someone to court because they think they've been cheated - even if the disaster was something they caused by their own selfish unconcern and desire to "stick it to the whiners".
There may be a few mountain man types - not the Duck Dynasty fakes, but real frontiersmen - who would rather just be left alone and rebuild at their own pace with the resources available, or otherwise take their chances, but most or the hard core Randriods become totally dependent on taxpayers if it looks like they're going to have to dip into stocks or funds to replace their stuff.
Haele
MarvinGardens
(779 posts)It depends on how hard core the libertarian, but most of the response would come from private insurance. If this version of libertopia still had government police, roads, etc., then it would still be government's job to get the roads clear, restore order, etc.
Wellstone ruled
(34,661 posts)Ninth Ward of New Orleans,nuf said.
brush
(53,764 posts)Last edited Wed Sep 6, 2017, 04:08 PM - Edit history (1)
some libertarian, Roark/Galt prototype on a bullhorn spewing loudly to storm victims, "you're on your own" as he/she makes their way to his/her waiting power boat.
HughBeaumont
(24,461 posts)Vinca
(50,260 posts)liberalmuse
(18,672 posts)Try working on a farm picking produce for shit pay, then. And I know some of these people who open their homes to you and feed you with what little they have because they are kind and generous.
I learned from a right wing coworker who used to rant about "illegals" and people who bleed the system that "relief" doesn't apply to the right wingers because they're just getting what is owed to them. She was the first in line with her hands held out when she drunkenly stumbled out of a bar into a pothole, breaking her leg. She was out for 3 months and I had to do her work and mine. Her husband was in line to receive unemployment benefits a number of times. But they won't stop ranting against gays, "illegals" and lazy liberals in-between being on government assistance.
Fuck Libertarians. They vote Republican and are as bad if not worse than they are.
Thomas Hurt
(13,903 posts)C_U_L8R
(44,997 posts)But hey, you've got freedom of choice.
eleny
(46,166 posts)delisen
(6,042 posts)I think I would expect to be free to evacuate or stay, without government interference.
I would be free to ignore or obey orders about whether or not to drink the flood waters or accept/refuse bottled water. It is my choice.
I would also be free to sell bottled water to others, provide rescue services, or medical supplies for whatever price they are willing to pay---or I could provide services for free if I chose to.
If the disaster were too sudden for me to prepare, I would expect to pay others as little as possible for the above services or appeal to their sense of humanity for free assistance. If I choose I might go it alone refuse the help of others.
ProfessorGAC
(64,992 posts)You want to be able to charge what the market will bear for water, but you want others to provide you with services at the price you prefer?
Self-contradiction.
delisen
(6,042 posts)my post describes what I would do.
I think the Libertarian philosophy allows for the individual to make his or her own rules in a disaster.
But, i think your post aptly describes how intellectually bankrupt that is. One cannot charge what the market will bear for their services while not suffering the same fate when one is on the other side of that transaction.
If you're right about how that type thinks, your description makes zero sense. Which means the libertarians make no sense.
Locrian
(4,522 posts)that during disasters - the expectation that the (socialist) police force would protect libertarian free market people selling water for $10 a bottle from the first person with a gun.
ProfessorGAC
(64,992 posts)icymist
(15,888 posts)It's probably a coincidence that prayers and well wishes look like this as well.
HeartachesNhangovers
(814 posts)1) The government does the research to determine the probability of a disaster, the effects of the disaster (best case to worst case), recommended preparation & mitigation by the public (buying insurance to clearing brush to raising ground floors, etc, etc), and outlook for those who fail to prepare as recommended.
2) The government makes all of this information freely and widely available so that the public can prepare as much as possible and understand what is potentially going to happen to them if they don't prepare.
3) In the event of a disaster, the public has considered and implemented the recommended preparation and mitigation steps such that there are very few members of the public who need assistance.
exboyfil
(17,862 posts)Actually all of the property holders in a community get together and decide to contract for the services noted in 1) and 2) based upon a mutually agreed upon formula.
In other words you never get past the first step. Try to get two Libertarians to open their wallet for each other let alone for a community.
I guess some independent third party could do studies on "spec" and offer to sell the information or the insurance. Getting independent verification of the credit worthiness of the party selling the insurance (and the actual need) might be tricky.
HeartachesNhangovers
(814 posts)I'm not well-read on Libertarianism - mostly because I don't think it will ever be more than a negligible fringe of the American public - but total abolition of the state isn't part of the platform of the American Libertarian Party.
icymist
(15,888 posts)HeartachesNhangovers
(814 posts)Orrex
(63,199 posts)1. Obvious assholes.
2. Not-quite-as-obvious assholes
Someone invariably says "what about left-libertarians?"
Well, they can either be associated with assholes, or they can pick a different self-designation.
"But it's small-L libertarianism. The true libertarianism."
Doesn't matter. They can either be associated with assholes, or they can pick a different self-designation.
JoeStuckInOH
(544 posts)You can never have enough bootstraps to pull one's self up by.
Warpy
(111,241 posts)unless family outside the disaster area chooses to help them.
The libertarian credo is that somebody will do something, just not me.
Expecting Rain
(811 posts)offer "assistance" to the highest bidder, preferably in cash.
I think that's about it.
exboyfil
(17,862 posts)Yes. Charity. You had to shame him to even allow folks shelter. Good luck getting the billions necessary for infrastructure repair.
SHRED
(28,136 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,300 posts)Cosmocat
(14,562 posts)Everyone else is SOOL.
SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)He is ok with local fire departments and such, as it seems there are varied levels of libertarians and a lot of them are fine with local governments doing stuff like that.
But he says that it's simple- if you don't buy insurance then you take that gamble and if you lose everything it's your fault for not buying insurance. He seems to think that this will magiclly stop people from being so affected because insurance premiums would be higher in areas likely to flood and people would move away or not build there.
He blames the existence of federally subsidized flood insurance on making flood disasters worse by making it economically viable for people to buy homes in flood areas where they otherwise would not be able to afford them- probably his only valid point to any degree.
Of course when I asked him how those insurance companies could be expected to stay solvent enough with enough reserves without strong federal oversight and regulation he didn't have an answer and just blathered about how private auditing companies could certify them- and when I asked how a private company with no subpoena powers and no legal penalties for being lied to could ever know they were being given accurate info he just shut up.
If you just take their ideas out two or three levels every time you hit the pint where they can't explain how it can work.
ProfessorPlum
(11,254 posts)TheBlackAdder
(28,183 posts)Orsino
(37,428 posts)ck4829
(35,042 posts)MineralMan
(146,286 posts)when you evacuated, see. "Finders Keepers: The Libertarian Motto"