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Just curious: What exactly does a libertarian's version of disaster relief look like? (Original Post) Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2017 OP
you have to be more specific. is the libertarian adversely affected by the disaster? unblock Sep 2017 #1
LOL. nt Tommy_Carcetti Sep 2017 #3
+ struggle4progress Sep 2017 #5
EXACTLY! Me I Me I Mine Me I CurtEastPoint Sep 2017 #6
Charles Koch, in an early rare statement, before he learned to hide Hortensis Sep 2017 #31
Otherwise known as Social Darwinism... Wounded Bear Sep 2017 #34
Yes. Ryan and the Kochs all espouse a strong libertarianism, and Hortensis Sep 2017 #37
Here you go: FSogol Sep 2017 #2
I am sure genxlib Sep 2017 #4
Libertarian view? You see it now in Texas... GulfCoast66 Sep 2017 #7
Yeah, that's pretty much it. marybourg Sep 2017 #28
Kinda like a disaster. byronius Sep 2017 #8
They don't get that a libertarian state would actually be just rule by warlords. Coventina Sep 2017 #11
Randi Rhodes once asked a libertarian to explain his philosophy in full. byronius Sep 2017 #22
How come, history does not tell us of such libertarian city-states??? DetlefK Sep 2017 #24
In reality, DetlefK, history DOES tell us of such libertarian utopias jmowreader Sep 2017 #40
perfect. . . n/t annabanana Sep 2017 #48
I wish I could K&R this post ProfessorPlum Sep 2017 #55
Depends on if it's the liberatarian or someone else who needs disaster relief that shapes it. haele Sep 2017 #9
Private Insurance. MarvinGardens Sep 2017 #10
Simple and to the point. Wellstone ruled Sep 2017 #12
Just look at the photos of the storm damage and you'll get an idea, then imagine... brush Sep 2017 #13
Hoping for the benevolence and thriftiness of the entrepreneur/free market. HughBeaumont Sep 2017 #14
A snorkel, spear for fishing and a cheap tent? Vinca Sep 2017 #15
They deserve relief, because they work so hard. liberalmuse Sep 2017 #16
Exploitation - price gouging, protection rackets and land grabbing Thomas Hurt Sep 2017 #17
Sink or swim C_U_L8R Sep 2017 #18
That about sums it up, imo eleny Sep 2017 #19
As a libertarian in a flood event delisen Sep 2017 #20
Good Luck With That ProfessorGAC Sep 2017 #44
I am not a Libertarian but if I were delisen Sep 2017 #46
OK ProfessorGAC Sep 2017 #47
not to mention Locrian Sep 2017 #53
You Bet! (Nt) ProfessorGAC Sep 2017 #54
It looks like this icymist Sep 2017 #21
I think the ideal Libertarian scenario would be: HeartachesNhangovers Sep 2017 #23
The government? exboyfil Sep 2017 #30
I believe there are lots of varieties of Libertarianism. HeartachesNhangovers Sep 2017 #33
LOL! You're not well read on Libertarianism but know the platform?! icymist Sep 2017 #38
Took me about 2 minutes to Google it. HeartachesNhangovers Sep 2017 #49
There are two varieties of Libertarians. Exactly and only two: Orrex Sep 2017 #42
Widespread helicopter drops of supplies like bootstraps. JoeStuckInOH Sep 2017 #25
It looks like people have to fend for themselves Warpy Sep 2017 #26
Private companies and free-lance individuals come in to... Expecting Rain Sep 2017 #27
Joel Osteen exboyfil Sep 2017 #29
S.O.L. SHRED Sep 2017 #32
Uber operating boats with surge pricing (nt) muriel_volestrangler Sep 2017 #35
HELP ME NOW! Cosmocat Sep 2017 #36
broom, mop dustpan..paper towels... n/t SoCalDem Sep 2017 #39
According to the libertarian I know pretty well Lee-Lee Sep 2017 #41
great post ProfessorPlum Sep 2017 #56
"If I can plug into a benefit, I DESERVE IT. If I can't plug into your benefit stream, IT'S A TAX!" TheBlackAdder Sep 2017 #43
It looks exactly like the disaster itself. n/t Orsino Sep 2017 #45
Good question ck4829 Sep 2017 #50
It has to do with relieving you of the stuff you left behind MineralMan Sep 2017 #51
Actual answer Bonx Sep 2017 #52

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
31. Charles Koch, in an early rare statement, before he learned to hide
Wed Sep 6, 2017, 05:34 PM
Sep 2017

his true plans as much as possible, said that the only functions of government were protection of self and property, and he held the door open for from fraud as part of that. No surprise that a billionaire thinks government protection of property and self are needed, and all that are needed. He'd call the fire department, no hypocrisy for him at all.

We need to accept that true libertarianism, by personality, really means we should all take care of ourselves. Period. Psychologists studying libertarian personality type say their main, and sometimes only principle, is personal freedom, elevated above all other principles. And they are very different from both conservatives and liberals in being mostly or entirely devoid of altruism.

I suspect Paul Ryan is probably a true libertarian by nature, which would mean he'd never throw himself into a raging river to save someone else, or be willing to contribute to employees unemployment funds as a wealthy employer. To libertarians, that's unworthy behavior for weaklings. I suspect the Kochs might be fascist-leaners for whom spitting on laws has been fun and profitable.

But for both real libertarians and fascist cum libertarian billionaires lacking in personal insight, the iinevitable ultimate end game, that public figures don't dare mention, would be a massive die-off of the weak and unworthy, producing a far stronger, more efficient (and scary heartless) brave new society.

Such a nice face, too. Koch-approved. When he comes through, of course.



"When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time." -- MayaAngelou

Wounded Bear

(58,641 posts)
34. Otherwise known as Social Darwinism...
Wed Sep 6, 2017, 05:47 PM
Sep 2017

We are all in the gene pool and "weaklings" should not be allowed to continue in it.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
37. Yes. Ryan and the Kochs all espouse a strong libertarianism, and
Wed Sep 6, 2017, 06:03 PM
Sep 2017

a giant "cleansing" of those they see as unworthy is the only possible end of their policies. With stage IV kidney failure, you couldn't purchase your own individual insurance on the free market and can no longer pay for dialysis three times a week yourself after it's rendered you destitute? You still have the personal freedom to die.

And it is libertarians' idea of morality to let you. Because any duty to help others would conflict with their ideal of complete personal freedom. They would feel it was for the good of society, but only incidentally as a byproduct of their virtue.

A duty to serve society, aka the state, is a fascist notion. Funny how well they fit together, though. Libertarian freedoms when young, protection for fortunes amassed as part of a business ruling class in a fascist society for elder years and descendents. How better than that for our new billionaire class to protect the wealth they amass?

Eisenhower: A Party Without Morals Is a Conspiracy to Seize Power

FSogol

(45,473 posts)
2. Here you go:
Wed Sep 6, 2017, 03:25 PM
Sep 2017
Libertarian Reluctantly Calls Fire Department

April 21, 2004 | Issue 40•16


CHEYENNE, WY—After attempting to contain a living-room blaze started by a cigarette, card-carrying Libertarian Trent Jacobs reluctantly called the Cheyenne Fire Department Monday. "Although the community would do better to rely on an efficient, free-market fire-fighting service, the fact is that expensive, unnecessary public fire departments do exist," Jacobs said. "Also, my house was burning down." Jacobs did not offer to pay firefighters for their service.



http://www.theonion.com/content/node/32825

genxlib

(5,524 posts)
4. I am sure
Wed Sep 6, 2017, 03:26 PM
Sep 2017

It looks a lot like the Cajun Navy that got lots of press last few weeks.

No mention about what happens in the months and years to follow. I am sure that several million gofundme pages should do the trick, right?

(If I recall from other posts, you are Broward County. Boca here. Stay safe. This is a serious motherfucker)

GulfCoast66

(11,949 posts)
7. Libertarian view? You see it now in Texas...
Wed Sep 6, 2017, 03:27 PM
Sep 2017

When disaster hits me of course it is appropriate for government to help.

When it hits someone else, fuck them. Why should I help pay for their poor decisions?

Libertarian in a nutshell.

byronius

(7,392 posts)
8. Kinda like a disaster.
Wed Sep 6, 2017, 03:28 PM
Sep 2017

Except the Chinese also invade afterwards.

Their visions of a loose collective of highly-armed city states built with slave labor and featuring child sex parlors demonstrates a bizarre lack of concern for the general fact that any neighboring non-libertarian state could quite easily conquer their little fake paradise.

At least they didn't pay no taxes! Well, not until after the conquering.

Libertarianism is possibly the weakest, most pathetic idea to ever survive the first semester of college. It is a fairy tale, told by idiots, full of sound and fury and signifying -- collapse.

Coventina

(27,100 posts)
11. They don't get that a libertarian state would actually be just rule by warlords.
Wed Sep 6, 2017, 03:32 PM
Sep 2017

I've tried and tried, but they just don't get it.

I love that:

Libertarianism is possibly the weakest, most pathetic idea to ever survive the first semester of college. It is a fairy tale, told by idiots, full of sound and fury and signifying -- collapse.

byronius

(7,392 posts)
22. Randi Rhodes once asked a libertarian to explain his philosophy in full.
Wed Sep 6, 2017, 04:06 PM
Sep 2017

On and on he blathered, Randi asking questions and fleshing out the details. Similar to how Sam Seder does it -- giving them all the rope they need.

In the end, Randi asked what would happen to the city-states should the Chinese invade.

'Well, that's up to the Chinese,' he answered. Over the next sixty seconds he revealed the greatest single threat to the libertarian method, a spectre against which they have absolutely no defense -- cooperative society. It's axiomatic that libertarian city-states (a) eventually fail on their own, or (b) are easily defeated and consumed by anyone who cooperates.

It's also the last refuge of pure racism, pederasty, and the quaint idea that people should be owned if possible. Hey, freedom! Until the Chinese show up, that is. Or anyone else. Libertarian Paradise America would be conquerable by almost any small group of Evil Cooperators. That's why there is no Libertarian Paradise, period. Such foolishness.

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
24. How come, history does not tell us of such libertarian city-states???
Wed Sep 6, 2017, 05:15 PM
Sep 2017

Humanity has tens of thousands of years of history since the Stone-Age. The first cities were founded about 10,000 years ago. The first kingdoms and nations a few thousand years ago.

How come that nobody has ever tried a libertarian way of life? Why does history not tell of them? Could it be that they were all... defeated by others with superior forms of society?

jmowreader

(50,552 posts)
40. In reality, DetlefK, history DOES tell us of such libertarian utopias
Thu Sep 7, 2017, 05:09 AM
Sep 2017

Somalia is the archetype for libertarianism in action.

ProfessorPlum

(11,254 posts)
55. I wish I could K&R this post
Thu Sep 7, 2017, 07:19 PM
Sep 2017

after hearing all the arguments, I've come to exactly the same conclusions. Madness.

haele

(12,646 posts)
9. Depends on if it's the liberatarian or someone else who needs disaster relief that shapes it.
Wed Sep 6, 2017, 03:31 PM
Sep 2017

In general, Liberatarians are notoriously hypocritical when it comes to claiming their "just due" for relief and suing for pain and suffering when taking someone to court because they think they've been cheated - even if the disaster was something they caused by their own selfish unconcern and desire to "stick it to the whiners".

There may be a few mountain man types - not the Duck Dynasty fakes, but real frontiersmen - who would rather just be left alone and rebuild at their own pace with the resources available, or otherwise take their chances, but most or the hard core Randriods become totally dependent on taxpayers if it looks like they're going to have to dip into stocks or funds to replace their stuff.

Haele

MarvinGardens

(779 posts)
10. Private Insurance.
Wed Sep 6, 2017, 03:32 PM
Sep 2017

It depends on how hard core the libertarian, but most of the response would come from private insurance. If this version of libertopia still had government police, roads, etc., then it would still be government's job to get the roads clear, restore order, etc.

brush

(53,764 posts)
13. Just look at the photos of the storm damage and you'll get an idea, then imagine...
Wed Sep 6, 2017, 03:36 PM
Sep 2017

Last edited Wed Sep 6, 2017, 04:08 PM - Edit history (1)

some libertarian, Roark/Galt prototype on a bullhorn spewing loudly to storm victims, "you're on your own" as he/she makes their way to his/her waiting power boat.

liberalmuse

(18,672 posts)
16. They deserve relief, because they work so hard.
Wed Sep 6, 2017, 03:40 PM
Sep 2017

Try working on a farm picking produce for shit pay, then. And I know some of these people who open their homes to you and feed you with what little they have because they are kind and generous.

I learned from a right wing coworker who used to rant about "illegals" and people who bleed the system that "relief" doesn't apply to the right wingers because they're just getting what is owed to them. She was the first in line with her hands held out when she drunkenly stumbled out of a bar into a pothole, breaking her leg. She was out for 3 months and I had to do her work and mine. Her husband was in line to receive unemployment benefits a number of times. But they won't stop ranting against gays, "illegals" and lazy liberals in-between being on government assistance.

Fuck Libertarians. They vote Republican and are as bad if not worse than they are.

delisen

(6,042 posts)
20. As a libertarian in a flood event
Wed Sep 6, 2017, 03:48 PM
Sep 2017

I think I would expect to be free to evacuate or stay, without government interference.

I would be free to ignore or obey orders about whether or not to drink the flood waters or accept/refuse bottled water. It is my choice.

I would also be free to sell bottled water to others, provide rescue services, or medical supplies for whatever price they are willing to pay---or I could provide services for free if I chose to.

If the disaster were too sudden for me to prepare, I would expect to pay others as little as possible for the above services or appeal to their sense of humanity for free assistance. If I choose I might go it alone refuse the help of others.

ProfessorGAC

(64,992 posts)
44. Good Luck With That
Thu Sep 7, 2017, 07:50 AM
Sep 2017

You want to be able to charge what the market will bear for water, but you want others to provide you with services at the price you prefer?

Self-contradiction.

delisen

(6,042 posts)
46. I am not a Libertarian but if I were
Thu Sep 7, 2017, 08:52 AM
Sep 2017

my post describes what I would do.

I think the Libertarian philosophy allows for the individual to make his or her own rules in a disaster.

ProfessorGAC

(64,992 posts)
47. OK
Thu Sep 7, 2017, 09:14 AM
Sep 2017

But, i think your post aptly describes how intellectually bankrupt that is. One cannot charge what the market will bear for their services while not suffering the same fate when one is on the other side of that transaction.

If you're right about how that type thinks, your description makes zero sense. Which means the libertarians make no sense.

Locrian

(4,522 posts)
53. not to mention
Thu Sep 7, 2017, 03:46 PM
Sep 2017

that during disasters - the expectation that the (socialist) police force would protect libertarian free market people selling water for $10 a bottle from the first person with a gun.

23. I think the ideal Libertarian scenario would be:
Wed Sep 6, 2017, 05:14 PM
Sep 2017

1) The government does the research to determine the probability of a disaster, the effects of the disaster (best case to worst case), recommended preparation & mitigation by the public (buying insurance to clearing brush to raising ground floors, etc, etc), and outlook for those who fail to prepare as recommended.

2) The government makes all of this information freely and widely available so that the public can prepare as much as possible and understand what is potentially going to happen to them if they don't prepare.

3) In the event of a disaster, the public has considered and implemented the recommended preparation and mitigation steps such that there are very few members of the public who need assistance.

exboyfil

(17,862 posts)
30. The government?
Wed Sep 6, 2017, 05:29 PM
Sep 2017

Actually all of the property holders in a community get together and decide to contract for the services noted in 1) and 2) based upon a mutually agreed upon formula.

In other words you never get past the first step. Try to get two Libertarians to open their wallet for each other let alone for a community.

I guess some independent third party could do studies on "spec" and offer to sell the information or the insurance. Getting independent verification of the credit worthiness of the party selling the insurance (and the actual need) might be tricky.

33. I believe there are lots of varieties of Libertarianism.
Wed Sep 6, 2017, 05:44 PM
Sep 2017

I'm not well-read on Libertarianism - mostly because I don't think it will ever be more than a negligible fringe of the American public - but total abolition of the state isn't part of the platform of the American Libertarian Party.

Orrex

(63,199 posts)
42. There are two varieties of Libertarians. Exactly and only two:
Thu Sep 7, 2017, 07:17 AM
Sep 2017

1. Obvious assholes.
2. Not-quite-as-obvious assholes

Someone invariably says "what about left-libertarians?"

Well, they can either be associated with assholes, or they can pick a different self-designation.

"But it's small-L libertarianism. The true libertarianism."

Doesn't matter. They can either be associated with assholes, or they can pick a different self-designation.

 

JoeStuckInOH

(544 posts)
25. Widespread helicopter drops of supplies like bootstraps.
Wed Sep 6, 2017, 05:20 PM
Sep 2017

You can never have enough bootstraps to pull one's self up by.

Warpy

(111,241 posts)
26. It looks like people have to fend for themselves
Wed Sep 6, 2017, 05:22 PM
Sep 2017

unless family outside the disaster area chooses to help them.

The libertarian credo is that somebody will do something, just not me.

 

Expecting Rain

(811 posts)
27. Private companies and free-lance individuals come in to...
Wed Sep 6, 2017, 05:23 PM
Sep 2017

offer "assistance" to the highest bidder, preferably in cash.

I think that's about it.

exboyfil

(17,862 posts)
29. Joel Osteen
Wed Sep 6, 2017, 05:25 PM
Sep 2017

Yes. Charity. You had to shame him to even allow folks shelter. Good luck getting the billions necessary for infrastructure repair.

 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
41. According to the libertarian I know pretty well
Thu Sep 7, 2017, 06:39 AM
Sep 2017

He is ok with local fire departments and such, as it seems there are varied levels of libertarians and a lot of them are fine with local governments doing stuff like that.

But he says that it's simple- if you don't buy insurance then you take that gamble and if you lose everything it's your fault for not buying insurance. He seems to think that this will magiclly stop people from being so affected because insurance premiums would be higher in areas likely to flood and people would move away or not build there.

He blames the existence of federally subsidized flood insurance on making flood disasters worse by making it economically viable for people to buy homes in flood areas where they otherwise would not be able to afford them- probably his only valid point to any degree.

Of course when I asked him how those insurance companies could be expected to stay solvent enough with enough reserves without strong federal oversight and regulation he didn't have an answer and just blathered about how private auditing companies could certify them- and when I asked how a private company with no subpoena powers and no legal penalties for being lied to could ever know they were being given accurate info he just shut up.

If you just take their ideas out two or three levels every time you hit the pint where they can't explain how it can work.

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
51. It has to do with relieving you of the stuff you left behind
Thu Sep 7, 2017, 02:54 PM
Sep 2017

when you evacuated, see. "Finders Keepers: The Libertarian Motto"

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