General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe lesser of two evils.
For a long time now, the last great strategy for winning reluctant voters over to the Democrats is the phrase "Democrats are the lesser of two evils." Sadly, that is true, but the problem with voting for the lesser evil is that you still get evil.
That is borne out by our history. We have, in the space of eighty years, gone from a Democratic president whose programs and policies were actually socialist to a president whose signature piece of legislation originated in Republican think tanks and who governs from a position very similar to Eisenhower.
In other words, as liberals, progressives, the Democratic party isn't making much progress. In fact we're going backwards.
As Republicans have gone from center right to batshit crazy conservative, the Democratic party has followed along in their wake, picking up the center-center right vote. Yes, it can always be said that voting for a Democrat is the lesser of two evils, but now we are voting not for a liberal, a progressive, but rather for the least conservative party out there.
If this country is going to go forward, we need to change this paradigm. Presidents that range from center right to batshit conservative aren't going to restore our civil liberties, significantly reduce our military spending, or pass legislation that can push the people of this country forward.
We didn't get here overnight, and curing this problem isn't going to happen overnight either. But we need to start addressing this problem now. We need to start electing the most liberal candidates put forth, start pushing back against the tide of conservatism and corporatism, start making the Democratic party a liberal party again. For if we don't, then the simply fact of the matter is that in forty years, our choice is going to be between fascist and batshit conservative. Is that where you really want to go?
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
SidDithers
(44,333 posts)Obama and the Democrats are not evil.
Sid
MadHound
(34,179 posts)I heard you use that same phrase, "the lesser of two evils", as the reason of last resort to vote for Democrats for the last ten years.
Yet here you are denying it now? 
And while you might think the Democrats aren't evil, I'm sure there are plenty of people in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Uganda, Colombia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Kuwait, Iraq, Egypt, and on and on, that would disagree with you. Hell, we've even got a Democratic president who draws up his own personal kill list every week.
SidDithers
(44,333 posts)put up the link.
Sid
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Please, write in complete sentences, thank you.
SidDithers
(44,333 posts)the only place you know me is here, so there must be links to me saying it.
You wouldn't just be making shit up, would you?
Sid
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Just don't have time to sift through all the searches.
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)prove it. Make the time.
Or don't make that statement.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)To try and search out a specific quote made on DU 1, 2 and/or 3 simply to prove some meaningless point on an anonymous internet chatboard?
Sorry, but I have better things to do, like saving my tree from this drought. Sid seems to think that he can get away with saying shit because there are fewer and fewer oldtimers here, but sorry, having been around and jousted with the man before, I'm not going to let it pass by. You don't like it, too bad, deal with it.
You called that user out on it.....that user asked you to provide a link. You should provide one. If you're not willing to, then you shouldn't call out a user using that type of language.
"I've heard you....Yet here you are denying it now?"
Provide a link or stop calling people out.
If it's so meaningless, then why do you bring it up?
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Ignore him.
Don't waste your time and let the thread get hijacked.
"Evil" is subjective, and not a term I would use to describe the Democratic Party,
but I do strongly agree with your observation that today's New Democrat Centrist Party is well to the Conservative Right of even Eisenhower.
http://www.alternet.org/news/149700
It is essential the the Democratic Party maintain the White House,
and it would be nice to gain seats in Congress,
but I can NOT overlook the fact that the Party leadership is "winning" by passing legislation based on
Traditional Conservative values,
and has completely ignored the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party.
I find it very difficult to help elect people who would only move the Party & The Country even further to the Conservative Right.
I used to mercilessly ridicule Working Class republicans for voting against their own economic interests,
and now find myself in the same position, especially with the new "Free Trade" treaties already passed,
and the new ones (Pacific Rim) being negotiated in secret while the country is distracted with the election and laughing at Romney.
My WORST fear is the Romney gets elected by hook or crook.
My NEXT Worse fear is that Obama & The "Centrist" Democrats win by a landslide,
and use that as a Mandate of Approval for MORE Conservative Economic Policy.
How do I "support the Democrats" and at the same time let them know how unhappy I am with the direction they are taking the Party?
You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.
[font size=5 color=green]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/center]
Sid
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)The sideshow is predictable, and utterly irrelevant given that we observe and live this reality every single day.
SidDithers
(44,333 posts)
Sid
emulatorloo
(46,135 posts)
zappaman
(20,627 posts)and I've never seen Sid say it.
Funny how you make the accusation then just happen to be "too busy being productive" to back it up.
Cowardly.
Robb
(39,665 posts)These Mahabharata-length rationalizations don't write themselves! Patience! Courage!
tabasco
(22,974 posts)you have zero credibility with intelligent people.
SidDithers
(44,333 posts)Sid
NNN0LHI
(67,190 posts)
SidDithers
(44,333 posts)Sid
Bluerthanblue
(13,669 posts)Democracy is the art of compromise.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)To enacting warmed over Republican policies. If compromise is an art, the perhaps the Democrats need to go to school, because their artistic skills suck.
Bluerthanblue
(13,669 posts)I agree. However, like it or not, there is a pretty large group of fellow citizens who don't see the world the way we do. They were forced to compromise during the FDR years and to some degree during the JFK/Johnson years.
It is easy to see things only from this side- but I think if you look back over history, there are many important policies which have been put into place and become accepted by society which have withstood many attempts from the opposition. They must feel as defeated as we do in their own way.
Personally I think that the progressive- "for the good of all citizens" - perspective is the absolute 'right' one. But I know many other people who live here as well who see life differently. As hard as they fight against our agenda we fight against theirs. It's a difficult, messy and ugly system- but that is how it is.
It's important to remember that there are 'Republicans' who sincerly believe that thier way is the best way for this country, just as we believe that ours is. The tension between the two parties is not easy to live with or navigate, but it is what a Democracy is all about (in my understanding).
I share your frustration and anger about where we are today- but lamenting the fact that we are far from where we want to be can distract us from our journey and seriously hurt us in the long run if we let it.
i've found this true in my own life experiences.
fwiw
wendylaroux
(2,925 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)So is "indefinite detention".
How many more do you want?
Xyzse
(8,217 posts)However, that is a long term strategy and it is not as if we have a choice at the moment either.
I have still been considering writing in a candidate, but I just won't feel right doing that at the moment, when there is indeed someone who is in your words "batshit crazy conservative" aiming to transform the country in to something akin to the government of Pakistan.
I do suggest going from the ground level and trying to elect more progressive candidates in the House and Senate, heck, I wouldn't mind placing a few more Independents in there too.
At the moment though, it is a little bit too late. I suggest aiming for this 2 years before the next presidential election without a Democratic incumbent.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)But since that is the case, the best time to act is now. Sooner we start, sooner we get our party back.
Xyzse
(8,217 posts)My reasoning for that is sure, you can go for this in a local/state level, dealing with Congresspersons and Senators, but in the Presidential Level, I don't see the point at the moment as it merely serves a distraction.
I tend to go for more focused efforts. I am very frustrated with Obama and he has never been my first/second/third/fourth/fifth/sixth pick. In fact, he is at a distant tenth with me, but he is what we currently have. However, I suggest winning this thing first.
Local level initiatives though I can definitely support.
EOTE
(13,409 posts)You've summarized my frustration extremely well. I'll be voting for Obama this November, but I desperately want to see a true progressive in the White House post haste. This country absolutely cannot afford to have the Democratic party slide even further to the right.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)
csziggy
(34,189 posts)So the choice is to vote for the Democratic candidates we can get into office now and try to push them and the party to the left.
I've seen the party move more and more right in my life time and I hope to see it swing back to the left before I die.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)"Were parties here divided merely by a greediness for office,...to take a part with either would be unworthy of a reasonable or moral man." Thomas Jefferson to William Branch Giles, 1795.
“Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." John Quincy Adams
Autumn
(48,718 posts)against Mitt Romney. In 2016 I will not vote for any Democrat who is in the center, neither will I vote for any blue dog.
randome
(34,845 posts)My advice to anyone is to vote for whom you think will make a difference, even if it's a small one. Because we will likely never have a viable candidate who satisfies litmus tests for 'progressive' or 'socialist' ideals, the definitions of which are ALSO malleable.
Bluerthanblue
(13,669 posts) randome
(34,845 posts) Autumn
(48,718 posts)last thing we need. The mess we are in, "small" differences are a fucking waste of time.
“Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." John Quincy Adams
I find that quote more inspiring all the time.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,454 posts)
amfortas the hippie
(46 posts)I wrote a rambling irate letter to my dem county chair, about this very thing.(http://amfortasthehippie.blogspot.com/2012/07/to-my-dem-county-chaira-ramble-on.html)
No answer, two+ weeks later(there's only 200 or so "Democrats", here.)
I've been hollering down the well about this, for some time.
We need a Counternarrative, to the "Conservative Revolution" Narrative.
(http://amfortasthehippie.blogspot.com/2012/06/more-perfect-union-or-i-can-do-utopia.html)
Sorry. Shameless Self Promotion, and all...but I've been toiling away in obscurity on this very topic, for a long time...in Texas.lol. I'm glad I finally wandered into DU.
Even my Geese are tired of me.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts) scheming daemons
(25,487 posts)False equivalency bullshit.
Obama has forced through more progressive legislative "wins" than any President since LBJ.
I know you aren't a troll, Mad Hound. But your post represents EXACTLY what a RW troll attacking the President from "the left" would say on a site like DU.
It is this line of thinking that got Ralph Nader 90,000 votes in Florida in 2000.
If you are less than 45 years old, then Obama is the most progressive President of your lifetime.
Stop with the bullshit false equivalency memes.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)FDR snatched planks from the Socialist party platform, made them his own and made them law of the land. Obama snatched Republican policy, made it his own, and now it is law of the land. You don't see the swing to the right in that? C'mon.
You are the one immediately assuming that I'm pushing for Nader, and yet if you read my post I'm actually talking about pushing the Democratic party back to the left. What is wrong with advocating for that? Are we not allowed to advocate for where we want to take the party? If that is the case, then you can let me, and a lot of folks, off right here.
Poll_Blind
(23,864 posts)
"I know you aren't a troll...But your post represents EXACTLY what a RW troll..."
PB
Lionessa
(3,894 posts)I shall do so now.
Zyzafyx
(124 posts)
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)bigwillq
(72,790 posts)
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)I think it is just the dawning reality of our new Democratic Party. One where the more timid elements of the past are pushed aside in favor of large donations and corporate support to combat the right wing power plays. One must be careful of becoming as dirty as the side we are opposing but we are also blessed to have the most liberal President we will ever be likely to see in our lives.
I ever hope we will begin to speak directly at trying to appeal to those timid elements that are on the lamb. Environmentalists, anti-corporate state, anti-war and anti-climate change are all being dreadfully maligned and forgotten imho. Instead of trying to appeal to Dennis Miller we should be trying to appeal to George Carlin. But that is just my same, tired hippie BS thinking after all. It might make you feel better, but it doesn't win elections.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)If the party that wins governs in substantially the same manner as the party that loses? That is the onrushing reality that we are faced with, which is why we need to start pushing the Democratic party to the left. To say that Obama is the most liberal president that we'll see in our lifetime is a sad, defeatist statement. If he is indeed the most liberal president we'll see in our lifetime, then we might as well roll over and die now, because that indicates that we are well and truly fucked.
Lionessa
(3,894 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)But the rest of us are going forward. We need to work with what we have. Obama is only the start. The GOP is self-destructing before our very eyes.
We need to keep up the pressure and work for better ideals, as you say, but if you start off by labeling the best chance we have of getting somewhere as nothing better than the GOP, then YOU are no better than the GOP.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)This president who is the "most liberal president in our lifetime"?
Let's see here, we get the ACA, which, essentially, a warmed over Republican policy. We expanded one war, and have military conflicts throughout the Middle East and Africa. The stimulus that we got was essentially a Republican stimulus, consisting of over forty percent tax cuts and tax credits. Our civil liberties are continuing to disappear at an alarming rate. The NDAA codified the concept that we can, at a president's whim, be declared an enemy combatant and either killed or indefinitely incarcerated with no trial. Oh, and what other president, Republican or Democrat, has ever drawn up a weekly personal kill list, some of whom are American citizens?
That's where we're at now, with this the "most liberal president of our lifetime". Since that is the case, then we need to push back, and push back hard. The only place that Obama is getting us is not-Romney, not Republican, and I'm sorry, but that is no longer good enough. The Democratic party needs to be returned to its liberal roots, for the good of the country as a whole.
randome
(34,845 posts)...we need to work while being cognizant of the times we live in. Our country has been on a 30 year binge of conservative free-wheeling that has done great damage to all of us.
We're starting to come out of that now. It's a slow process but I don't think we should equate Obama with Conservatives because he has done what he could do.
Could he have done more? Absolutely. But there is always more to be done. He has made progress and we should welcome that and push for more. But he is no Romney and Biden is no Palin! There is no equivalency between them.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)Period.
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)Voting, getting out the vote, discussing issues with friends & relatives. It's all good and needs to happen more. So much more. We have to push so far to the left it makes Jesus Christ look like a teahadist. We have to push as hard to left as the right is pushing because as they go further and further it just sucks us into the wake. Dragging us along until Reagan appears as a sensible moderate. Voting is a great responsibility but it doesn't mean as much as it used to, at least to me. I honestly think the choices we make every day, where we put our money, speaks ever so much louder than our vote. When your not walking through life with corporate blinders on. When your idea of an honest opinion extends beyond snickering emoticons and narcissism and you can objectively look at the big picture. At how much your daily dollar affects the direction and the endgame of the world we all hope to create. Your money, my money, it is the greatest weapon at our disposal and we have to get people to realize their actions have lasting and horrible consequences, for all of us.
That's where I'm at these days. All you can be is the change you want to see in the world. If you desire more of the same, keep repeating the steps. If you have a different vision in your head of the world you want then be it. Actions really do speak much louder than words and our money can speak louder than our vote. The world may well be fucked but I ain't gonna be a fucker. Not that the Dimon's and Romney's of the world would even bat an eyelash, they won't miss another ring kisser. And heck, I sleep better knowing I'm not one.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)"The lesser of two evils...In other words, as liberals, progressives, the Democratic party isn't making much progress. In fact we're going backwards. "
...aren't you happy that the actual evil is in deep shit?
I mean, the purpose of winning, if you're so inclined to buy that argument, is to stop the country from sliding into the dark ages.
Yeah, I'm doing a happy dance.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Elect conservatives, we slide into the dark ages. Elect Democrats and we still slide into the dark ages, albeit at a bit slower pace(for now).
What we need to is to stop that slide, reverse it, and the only way to do that is to reverse the direction that the Democratic party is taking.
Spike89
(1,569 posts)No one initially elected FDR as a progressive paradigm--that was not who he was prior to becoming POTUS. He became a progressive in office because we, the people, were on the verge of revolt. A huge number of unemployed men converged on the cities, especially the capital. Farms were failing, factories were closing, and communism was a popular topic, especially among the lower middle class.
As much as it was ultimately progressive, the works projects implemented during that time were as much about simply getting idle and agitated unemployed men out of the cities as anything else.
The point isn't that FDR wasn't progressive (he obviously ended up as one), but that the government responds when the people force it to. When we become complacent, the "captains of industry" make inroads and will dominate until the people get angry (and dangerous to them) once again.
Ohio Joe
(21,896 posts)Come on guys... WTF? Stupid shit like this gets posted every fucking day and it would be wicked nice if I could, in some way, show what I thought of it without have to give it any kind of reply. I've tried ignoring this kind of crap but it is still here, day after day, the same anti-Obama and anti-Democratic bullshit. I really have no interest in arguing against repug shit and to be frank... You guys are simply too slow to pull the trigger and ban the trolls that post this shit day after day.
I would want full tranparency... Crap, make my name bigger then anyone else's when I give an un-rec, let them see it... I want it seen that I un-rec crap like this. What I don't want to do is have to argue with stupid or bring more attention to it... And those are the only tools we have for it.
Please, please... We need un-rec.
SidDithers
(44,333 posts)
Sid
just1voice
(1,362 posts)Try looking at the big picture.
emulatorloo
(46,135 posts)
MineralMan
(150,552 posts)Unrec only says you don't like something. A post can say why. I prefer posts to clicks of a mouse.
I posted my reasons for objecting to this OP below in the thread.
One of the 99
(2,280 posts)MadHound
(34,179 posts)However I've a question for you, are you actually calling me a troll?
amfortas the hippie
(46 posts)the folks who say,"hey, our party has been moving to the Right for 30 years, and I don't like it...what are we gonna do about it?"
or the guy who says" nothing to see , here..." and denies the objective reality of the former?
Of course, Lesser Evilism is necessary...sad fact.
IBut, rather than abandoning the lesser evil for the Greens, or whatever(there's a Platform I can get behind)...who have zero chance of winning(Nader Debate of years past), due to the entrenched duopoly...Seems more logical to agitate and holler at the Dems(who are a part of the duopoly), and force them back to the Left...more in line with what the Greens are doing.
Greens could be, to the dems...what the Libertarians, Birchers and TeaPeople are to the Repugs.
I hate to make that comparison, but there it is.
On that side, it turned out that all those Factions' Priorities were somewhat mutually exclusive.(reconcile the Words of Jesus, with Hyperindividualism, etc)...leading to the Great crackup we're having so much fun with, today.
Greens , imo, are close to what Liberalism means...and to what the Dems embraced, before the DLC, etc felt they had to lean so far to the Right, in order to remain relevant.
That Leaning, turns out, has been Bad for Dems...as evidenced in threads just like this...
It gives the Pseudo Libertarians, and Anarchists, an opening for their False Equivalency.
Since the Dems are the only part of the Duopoly that seems to have room for Liberal Thinking...I'll keep dancing with them...and push, push, push, to the Left.
To just ignore the long term Rightward swing...is Defeatist.
Thanks for the opportunity to speak.
Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)At first I thought it was nonsense that Democrats are moving rightward. But eventually, I stopped and thought about it. There's some truth in the theory that our party is moving rightward along with the Ruhpublicans, especially when you take at some of the conservative policies that are still being continued such as the Drug War, record numbers of deportations, and ditching the public option on health care. What I find crazy now is that despite all of these policies continued under Democrats, some pundits have made the assertion that "both parties" are polarized, and both have been hijacked by the far-right and the far-left respectively.
treestar
(82,383 posts)That is simply the attitude of a negative person.
Republicans are an evil and Democrats are a good. Even if that is relative, so is everything.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Imagine what the one percent can accomplish in another four years of corporate enabling and building the police state. If we have learned anything since the last election, it is that voting for the Democrat is not enough anymore.
emulatorloo
(46,135 posts)All you have to do is look at the States that are totally under Republican control.
Or you could look at Iowa, where I live.
Repub Gov, Republican House, Democratic Senate.
The Dems stop every vile hatefilled bill the Repubs try to push through.
Robb
(39,665 posts)MineralMan
(150,552 posts)are those who have been opposed to President Obama since he was elected. Only those people who refuse to see the progress that has been made under his administration use that expression. Only those people who post regularly on DU with angry criticism for what has not yet been done use that phrase.
I do not consider Barack Obama to be the lesser of two evils at all. Rather, I consider him to be a President who is trying to get progressive legislation through a hostile Congress. Sometimes, he has succeeded, as with the repeal of DADT. Sometime, he has only partially succeeded, as with the ACA. Only those who only mention things that have not yet been done use the expression "lesser of two evils." You appear to be among those.
If you believe that a Republican President would be the same as President Obama in a second term, I don't even know what to say to you. Your post does nothing more than to discourage people. There is nothing positive in it. There is no realistic alternative presented. It is nothing more than another whine about not getting everything you wanted from this President. In my entire life, I've never gotten everything I wanted from any President, Governor, or legislature. It's a process, not an end point. There is no end point. The more you get, the more you want.
Give President Obama a second term. Give him a Congress he can work with. The alternative is unthinkable.
SidDithers
(44,333 posts)Sid
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Tell me, is there anyplace in my OP where I say Romney would be better than Obama?
MineralMan
(150,552 posts)It's going to be Obama or Romney. Take your pick. Discouraging Democratic voters is not a progressive thing to do. After the election, you can begin running down Obama again. Until then, I'll comment when you do. It's that simple.
Kurt Sperry
(2 posts)I can respect the arguments for LOTEism as pragmatism over principle but if you have no ideological limits you cannot in good conscience cross, then you have no ideology at all beyond reactionary contrarianism. Yes, the Democrats are better than the Republicans, but that's setting the bar at floor level. I'll support actual liberal Democrats where I can find them and I'll vote for them, but centrists (American centrism is still rabid conservatism), blue dogs and corporate DNC/Third Way types? Never. Ever. They are slime.
dmallind
(10,437 posts)I have yet to see a valid rebuttal of why it is not ethically sound to make choices that maximize benefits and minimize harm. The "lesser of two evils" aphorism supports only mindless emotional appeals and does nothing to improve the situation either now or in the future. Just like humans cannot survive without harming other species, human societies cannot exist without causing some harm to some subsets of their population to benefit other subsets. The whole point of politics is to balance those microcosmic harms and benefits so that overall benefit is maximized at the aggregate level. Trying to be "pure" to any ideology inevitably becomes the tyranny of one subset over the others.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)You know what you're doing.
You're flicking lit matches at a pool of kerosene, and giggling.
Because you have nothing better to do.
Fact.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)MadHound
(34,179 posts)Actually you can throw a lit match into a pool of kerosene, and the match will simply go out. Kerosene needs a wick to fire up.
But pyrotechnica is besides the point. No, I don't need a new hobby, because I'm not looking for flamewars, I'm wanting to make people think. Tell me, honestly, what about the analysis in my OP is wrong? You cannot, simply cannot provide any credible evidence otherwise. Thus, it needs to be said, the knowledge needs to be spread.
As far as not having anything better to do, I've plenty better to do. I'm trying to keep an orchard alive through a drought, not to mention berries, a garden, and a dozen other ongoing crisis' of greater or lesser magnitude to attend to, thus I don't have time to engage in the drama.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts) woo me with science
(32,139 posts)At a certain point the denial has to stop, for all our sakes.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=146626
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)he must put a damper on it.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Yeah Its Spin
(236 posts)WASHINGTON - Barack Obama has opened a significant lead over Mitt Romney in a Bloomberg National Poll that reflects the presumed Republican nominee’s weaknesses more than the president’s strengths.
Obama leads Romney 53 percent to 40 percent among likely voters, even as the public gives him low marks on handling the economy and the deficit, and six in 10 say the nation is headed down the wrong track, according to the poll conducted June 15- 18.
The survey shows Romney, a former Massachusetts governor, has yet to repair the damage done to his image during the Republican primary. Thirty-nine percent of Americans view him favorably, about the same as when he announced his presidential candidacy last June, while 48 percent see him unfavorably - a 17-percentage point jump during a nomination fight dominated by attacks ads. A majority of likely voters, 55 percent, view him as more out of touch with average Americans compared with 36 percent who say the president is more out of touch.
http://www.standard.net/stories/2012/06/20/new-poll-reflects-lesser-two-evils-mood-obama-big-lead
Funny, when you do the google - obama The lesser of two evils, you find a whole lot of Ron Paul sites.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)In this case, establishment Democrats. They ACTIVELY discourage progressive candidates and often throw in ringers to counter their campaigns. Further, if one actually gets nominated (rare), they starve the campaign ensuring a win by the Republicans and then scream, "See! I TOLD YOU PROGRESSIVES CAN'T WIN!" The Democrats aren't going to allow anyone not toeing the party line in. Any questions see what they did to Howard Dean -- an individual whose only 'sin' was to be against the Iraq War. And, as it turns out, he was right. It's become a top-down organization and all they want is your unquestioning loyalty, money and votes -- every two years. Between that, you and I don't exist.
It could all be turned around, of course, but there is no incentive to do so. Too many people making too much money off the process. Both parties have become good ole' boy clubs representing the 1% which means you and I aren't invited.
Another excellent post, MH. Recced
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)All Democrats up for election are EVIL? Are all Democrats here EVIL too?
amfortas the hippie
(46 posts)but you're missing the Point.
The Point is, that ...in response to the Conservative Revolution, Some People at the top of the Dem Party figgered we "needed" to move to the Right.
In Specific Policies(Nafta, Workfare,Gramm Rudman, etc)
In Overall Philosophy, "New Democrats"...influential Folks believed the Conservative BS , that "Liberalism is Dead"...and acted accordingly.
To Ignore all of this, for ...what..."Purity's Sake"???....is counterproductive....and more in line with the Purgefest that the other side has been engaged in.
Constructive Criticism is not the same as Criticism for Criticism's Sake.
Bluerthanblue
(13,669 posts)that the OP seems to encourage, I guess that is how we are supposed to see it.
I don't see life that way. It's a pretty childish way of approaching life in my experience.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Black and white, with us or against us thinking, where did you get that from? Projection?
Bluerthanblue
(13,669 posts)are right. Your OP doesn't say that and I'm wrong to pin that on you. I had just read through the entire thread again before I posted this and was disturbed to read a few people saying it wasn't really worth voting Democratic in the future unless there was a drastic move to the left.
Some of your replies do lean more towards the message of if we can't elect a far left Dem, then we are fucked and might as well die:
If he is indeed the most liberal president we'll see in our lifetime, then we might as well roll over and die now, because that indicates that we are well and truly fucked.
Believe me, I understand and share your frustration. But the answer isn't to quit. The answer isn't that if we can't have a MAJOR change NOW then we should give up. There are times in life when that is the right way to deal with a situation. Sure, some people can choose not to vote, or to vote on principal, and they will probably survive the consequences of another Republican presidency. But there are people who will die if we allow the republicans to gain the white house. We have to prevail. And we have to move this country back in the right direction- that won't EVER happen if we say "ah, what's the difference between the two parties anyway... we might as well just let the republicans take over and screw things up completely"-
There IS a difference between the two parties. Yes, we have moved uncomfortably to the center - we have to continue to pull back against them and work to move us back in the right direction.
Read through this entire thread including your responses, perhaps you'll see how the black/white all/nothing criticism isn't all that far fetched. I apologize for attributing it to your OP.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Along with the Democratic party. The simple fact of the party is that we're moving towards a two party system where one major party represents the center, center right position and the other party represents the batshit crazy RW position. In fact, we're pretty much already there. The voices of the left are either silenced or marginalized within the party, and ignored outside of it.
Without a major party to represent the left, the left will, sooner or later, flee the Democratic party. It has always been a truism that under this big tent Democratic party, all participants need to feel wanted, need to be rewarded. The left hasn't been substantially rewarded for decades, and thus the discontent grows.
In fact the increase in apathetic voters bears this out. As the Democratic party has moved to the right over the past few decades, the number of apathetic voters have gone up, and most of those apathetic voters are disgruntled liberals.
The fact is, if we are to save our country, we need to take action quickly. Otherwise, under a government that varies from center right to batshit crazy conservative, is going to take this country right over that cliff.
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)Thank you SO much for that by the way. Just made my day. Cheers.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Thanks for dropping by, perhaps you learned something
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)Republicans - keep 100% of the Bush tax cuts
Obama/Democrats - keep 73% of the Bush tax cuts
pretty much two bad choices. The option of only keeping 20% of the Bush tax cuts? - off the table
Republicans - $108 billion in tax cuts for the top 1%, $163 billion for the top 5%, $31 billion for the bottom 40%
Obama/Democrats - $40 billion in tax cuts for the top 1%, $80 billion for the top5%, $42 billion for the bottom 40%
so favor the rich by 5 to one, or favor the rich by 2 to 1. The option of NOT favoring the rich? - off the table.
Republicans - Ryan budget
Obama/Democrats - Simpson/Bowles
Good choice there, between totally evil and evil. Again, an option that does not cut taxes for the rich and benefits for the poor and elderly? - off the table.
But in a Democracy, the working class has a choice. We can vote for Republicans - and get raped with a chainsaw. Or we can vote for Democrats - and instead get raped with a power drill.
But at least we have a choice.
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)Yes to all my questions. So there we have it.
At least you were honest. But we won't be friends. I'm sure you understand.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)DevonRex
(22,541 posts)So is the party. So is Obama. So are the rest of the Dems here. Still evil acc to the OP and to hfjovt or whoever just above.
It's perfectly clear m
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)You want to talk condescension? Condescension is mocking Americans for correctly labeling what is being done to them as evil.
What is being done to Americans *is* evil.
This outrageous denial must stop.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=146626
September 11 was considered a national emergency. Three thousand people died, and we got national vigils, days of mourning, impassioned Presidential speeches, an entirely changed national consciousness and way of life....
Compare the loss of 3000 to what is happening now: Over a million American schoolchildren are homeless. We have the second-highest child poverty rate of all the developed nations; only ROMANIA is worse. Forty percent of our wealth has been looted. People who were comfortably middle class 15 years ago are living in cars on the street. Meanwhile, the corporations are sucking in record profits.
Where is the commensurate alarm about THIS emergency? Where is the outrage? Where is the President standing up and pounding his fist on the podium and saying that it is absolutely unacceptable, in a country with the wealth that America has, for ANY person to have to worry about food or shelter? Where are the vigils and the speeches and the national days of alarm and attention to this, and the exhortations for a SERIOUS, immediate response? Why do we not get a response AT LEAST as URGENT and VEHEMENT as the response to 9/11?
Why?
No, we get corporate platitudes about the need for "shared sacrifice," austerity, and budget cutting, and admonitions to be patient and not be such a "purist." We get more drone wars. We get our Secretary of Defense admonishing us about how we can't cut military spending. We get a President *starting out* debt ceiling negotiations by offering up social spending, giving speeches advocating austerity, and last Friday signing legislation gutting pensions for already struggling American workers. We get billions of dollars in new police state infrastructure and surveillance centers. We don't get any sense of alarm about *what is being done to Americans* through policy.
This is a bigger emergency than 9/11. Where is the outrage? Why do we get such a tepid response?
Because both parties are flooded with corporate money. Because austerity, bloody wars and empire, police state infrastructure, and prison industrial complexes have been deemed more profitable to the one percent than schools, libraries, genuinely affordable healthcare, and jobs with living wages.
Every Democrat should be speaking out and pushing our politicians to change the national narrative, not telling others to shut up or mocking them for calling any of this evil. Every American should be speaking out and DEMANDING better. No person should EVER go to bed hungry in the United States of America. Nobody in this country should EVER have to worry about having a place to sleep at night. With the wealth this country has, it is unconscionable that we are even having these discussions. We have a malignant, deadly serious problem of corporate money in our government, driving policy for profit....and it is NOT confined to the Republican Party.
This outrageous denial must stop.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=146626
Obama and Romney Both Backing Secret Job-killing Deal? Trans-Pacific Partnership lurks
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002946322
Cory Booker chosen to help draft national Democratic party platform
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014164848
Republicans AND Democrats were working hard to kill the oldest and largest union
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014165360
Check Out The Latest Huge Purchases By The Pentagon
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002957803
Serf city here we come ....Signed by President Barack Obama on Friday
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002921492
Cost of medical care in June climbed 0.7%, highest gain since 2010
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002961996
My Hospital Bill was $119,000 for 5 days
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002962669
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)DevonRex
(22,541 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)All the time?
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)but it is over
we, insofar as we are both progressives, cannot take back the Democratic Party. Heck, we cannot even take back DU.
Maybe it will flip back after the election. Sheesh, I can remember those days. From January 2009 to December 2010, it felt like I was part of a tiny minority stubbornly defending Obama and the Democratic Party from seemingly relentless attacks on DU. Attacks which garnered stadiums full of applauding people.
Now, by gosh, Obama seemingly has never done anything wrong. He's the most liberal of all possible Presidents and apparently was really not born in the United States.
Considering how awesome he is, he surely must have been born on Krypton. Boy, if only there was some way to clone him and have him run in every Senate and House race. Once there were 100 Obamas in the Senate and 435 Obamas in the house, then we'd see them pass the most progressive plan ever written - the plan put forward by Obama's Catfood Commission, and they'd pass the Pure Progressive Trade Agreement too.
Oh man, I can see it now
randome
(34,845 posts)No one is saying Obama is Superman. We have to deal with Reality. Thirty years of Republican ascendance is about to come to an end.
Celebrate with us. Don't be the dour guy/gal who sits in the corner by him/herself. This is a time to try and get things done, not give up because the world did not go the way you wanted.
Cool. Miranda.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)and my shadow.
No one is saying Obama is superman?
220 recs say that you are wrong about that
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=950282
"I respect him more and honor him as a man making sacrifices only a few can imagine. I am inspired by his patience. I am impressed by his fortitude and I am humbled by his service. He gives me hope ..."
Unfortunately the Republican ascendance is not being replaced by Democratic ascendance, it is being replaced by diet-Republican ascendance. Again, I do not call that a win.
I call that a betrayal, and a devastating loss. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=891576
emulatorloo
(46,135 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)I'll be voting for a man who although I often disagree with is, I believe a man of integrity.
In any case, I find your repetitive posts (you essentially pen the same screed endlessly) pointless and nauseatingly self-righteous.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Let's see, going back through my posts, I've penned one today on the drought, one on the Paterno statue, this one, US military imperialism, the nuclear industry, the MIC, how our wired world could be driving you crazy, Penn State again, the Bush tax cuts, Afghanistan, Michael Johnson's controversial comment about slavery effecting athletic performance, scientology vs. Christianity, a warning against firing off fireworks due to the dry conditions and a plea to put out water for our wild animal friends during this heat wave.
That is my entire OP posting for this month, and let's see, there are five, out of fourteen, that mention the president. I would hardly call that "endlessly".
You don't like my posts, then don't read them, it is, after all, that simple.
But we're just evil Dems so what do we know? We've been corrupted by the lesser evil of the Democratic Party.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)Hopefully you make progress from here.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)Just look at how much they hate on Dennis Kucinich.
They're still jumping for joy over the fact that the GOP redistricted him out of office.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)It was from the start a top-down infiltration planned and bankrolled by corporations.
It is no accident that Third Way types reliably defend job-killing free trade agreements, indefinite detention, warrantless surveillance, attacks on Occupy, bank bailouts and settlements, austerity budgets, drone wars, etc., etc., etc.
It is a wholly corporate-Republican-neocon agenda, minus the religious trimmings.
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)And the Socialist Utopia is one further away.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)I'm not sad the Democrats are winning, after all, as I said, the alternative is worse. But what does sadden me is the fact that the Democratic party has moved steadily to the right for forty years. This move has left us with a two party system where one party represents the center right(a position formerly occupied Eisenhower Republicans) and the other party represents batshit crazy conservatives. Where, in this system, is the voice of the left? It has been effectively silenced, at least as far as making actual policy is concerned.
I mean really now, we've gone from FDR, who essentially wanted a single payer UHC, to Obama and today's Democrats, who adapted a Republican inspired health care policy. You don't find that the least bit disturbing?
Oh, and I'm not a socialist, nor am I looking for a socialist utopia. But hey, thanks for making a crack that sounds like something a Bircher would say. It says a lot about you, none of it good.
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)Your tired name-calling is tedious, and undermines every point you attempt to make.
It's your 'shtick', I know, but it makes you look, well, silly.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)I respond with facts and one crack about what your reply sounded like, and instead of focusing on the facts, you focus on the crack.
What, can't deal with facts? Sure seems like it.
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)You have a Nice Day.
MadHound
(34,179 posts) Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)"MadHound Response".
emulatorloo
(46,135 posts)DevonRex
(22,541 posts)Makes his position quite obvious in context with the one you linked to.
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Thomas Paine
dmallind
(10,437 posts)About the most that they normally do to change things is make a 49-51 R-D race into a 49-48-3 R-D-X race (either that or they make a 38-62 race into a 38-59-3 race, which changes nothing).
That way we still don't get the socialist policies. We just get more batshit crazy policies as committe and procedural votes go the R way.
If there were a huge swathe of support for them - if they made those races 49-20-31 even once in a while, we'd still get the same batshit crazy results now, but at least we could say "look DNC - if you governed like these socialist policy favoring candidates want, who are more popular than your Eisenhower-style corporatists, then you'd get back to 49-51 again and we'd all get what we want; you'd be in power and we'd get socialist policies". What can we really say though now? "Trust us DNC if you put out a manifesto and voted in support of these socialist policies that garner a tiny fraction of your current support, you'd somehow do far better than they do and we'd all win together"?
There are some socialist policies I'd really like to see myself (as well as some I would not). I like socialized roads as much as anyone. Nationalized health care and banking would be peachy with me too, as would more centralized and standardized curricula and education processes. Heck let's go for utillities while we're at it, if we can make them flexible enough to pursue renewables at the expense of extraction jobs if need be. But support even for what I want, let alone nationalizing mercantile organizations and entire manufacturing industries, is simply not high enough to be either elected or enacted here at this time, and advocating for them as policies is a sure-fire recipe for being out of power, and even out of all but a bare few handfuls of seats in Congress.
great white snark
(2,646 posts)This would probably go over better on a site that works to depress Dem turnout.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)