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liberalnarb

(4,532 posts)
Mon Sep 11, 2017, 09:18 PM Sep 2017

My two cents...

I haven't posted anything regarding the Sanders/Clinton divide that so severely split DUers during the primary since... well... the primary. But recently, these tensions seem to have flared up again due to the circulation of excerpts from Hillary Clinton's new book "What Happened?" The most controversial, in this context, being an excerpt where Sec. Clinton accuses Senator Sanders of "paving the way for Trump's 'crooked Hillary' campaign." Long story short I don't like it, and no it's not just "Bernie-bro reflex" . I staunchly supported Senator Sanders in the 2016 primary. I did everything I could to help elect Clinton and Kaine after the primary ended and Bernie made his endorsement. First off, does Mrs. Clinton really believe that the pussy-grabbing man-baby in chief really need Bernie's permission to attack her? The Senator's critique of Hillary, particularly surrounding campaign finance, was overall a well-deserved critique of the entire current political system as a whole. Considering the timing, I don't see the book as being too damaging, but it is divisive within a left/Democratic Party that DESPERATELY needs to unite.

28 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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My two cents... (Original Post) liberalnarb Sep 2017 OP
You may not like it but she was right. MrsCoffee Sep 2017 #1
That's your opinion. I disagree. Nt liberalnarb Sep 2017 #2
So do I. The whole blaming thing just leaves a bad taste. n/t monmouth4 Sep 2017 #3
This message was self-deleted by its author Expecting Rain Sep 2017 #7
Geez, guys. TomSlick Sep 2017 #4
While we must focus on 2018 and 2020, guillaumeb Sep 2017 #6
I don't think we're disagreeing. TomSlick Sep 2017 #8
I like how Seth Meyers laid it out TexasBushwhacker Sep 2017 #5
Way to go, Seth. aikoaiko Sep 2017 #21
Seth uses humor to get his points across. Bluepinky Sep 2017 #27
We desperately needed to unite last year, but Bernie & his most vocal ecstatic Sep 2017 #9
Uh, no. NanceGreggs Sep 2017 #10
Bernie didn't lay any foundation. Trump said nothing of substance to back up his smears. liberalnarb Sep 2017 #11
Bernie said nothing of substance to back up his smears either. emulatorloo Sep 2017 #12
His critique was of an entire corrupt system not just one person. liberalnarb Sep 2017 #14
Don't you dare shove words in my mouth about campaign finance reform. And don't gaslight me emulatorloo Sep 2017 #16
What words?... I didn't shove... never mind there must be a misunderstanding here. liberalnarb Sep 2017 #17
Not going to argue the points ... NanceGreggs Sep 2017 #13
He denigrated HRC no more than she denigrated Obama in 08. This is what primaries are for. liberalnarb Sep 2017 #15
The smears dragged and on after there was no way he could have won. All the way to the convention emulatorloo Sep 2017 #18
The minute you have to play ... NanceGreggs Sep 2017 #19
... emulatorloo Sep 2017 #20
You mean *white* working class. Not the rest of the working class. ehrnst Sep 2017 #25
After my initial reactions to that excerpt on DU, I decided to follow Bernie's lead and go forward aikoaiko Sep 2017 #22
Absolutely. We don't need a book that blames others for their loss, and divides the party ehrnst Sep 2017 #23
Dont like that either. liberalnarb Sep 2017 #24
I think you may have over-valued your opinion... Wounded Bear Sep 2017 #26
I agree with the points you make in your post. Bluepinky Sep 2017 #28

Response to MrsCoffee (Reply #1)

TomSlick

(11,098 posts)
4. Geez, guys.
Mon Sep 11, 2017, 09:35 PM
Sep 2017

It's long since time to get over the primaries. The country faces a real and present danger. I sincerely do not believe it an overstatement to say we are on the precipice of losing our republic.

Let the historians figure out the last election. We need to be laser focused on the present and future.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
6. While we must focus on 2018 and 2020,
Mon Sep 11, 2017, 09:48 PM
Sep 2017

we must also realize that the GOP gerrymandered and suppressed to a narrow victory.

TomSlick

(11,098 posts)
8. I don't think we're disagreeing.
Mon Sep 11, 2017, 09:54 PM
Sep 2017

We need to focus on any and all issues that apply to 2018 and 2020 - just not 2016.

[link:

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ecstatic

(32,701 posts)
9. We desperately needed to unite last year, but Bernie & his most vocal
Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:01 PM
Sep 2017

supporters made that impossible when it mattered most. Now we have Trump & the GOP dismantling decades of progress.

But I get your point. We will have to get it together and unite if there's any hope of reversing things next fall.

NanceGreggs

(27,814 posts)
10. Uh, no.
Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:20 PM
Sep 2017

Trump didn't need Bernie's "permission" to attack Hillary He simply expanded on the foundation Bernie had already laid.

As for being divisive, exactly what do you think Bernie is doing every time he attacks the Democratic party - like declaring it "a failure"?

 

liberalnarb

(4,532 posts)
11. Bernie didn't lay any foundation. Trump said nothing of substance to back up his smears.
Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:24 PM
Sep 2017

I agree with Senator Sanders when he said dems failed to reach out to their working class base in the last election.

emulatorloo

(44,120 posts)
12. Bernie said nothing of substance to back up his smears either.
Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:34 PM
Sep 2017

When he was asked point blank which vote she made that was corrupt he sputtered and had nothing.

IMHO the moment Jeff Weaver and Tad Devine convinced Bernie to attack Clinton's character was the biggest mistake they ever made. Those two jack-asses ruined Bernie's chances at the nomination as far as I'" concerned.

Bernie has never run a negative campaign before and he didn't want to. He was super-uncomfortable about it. It showed in that moment.

I think you should quit while you are ahead.

 

liberalnarb

(4,532 posts)
14. His critique was of an entire corrupt system not just one person.
Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:46 PM
Sep 2017

He may not have been able to come up with a corrupt vote by Hillary, but do you honestly believe big donors pour millions into elections for no reason?

emulatorloo

(44,120 posts)
16. Don't you dare shove words in my mouth about campaign finance reform. And don't gaslight me
Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:51 PM
Sep 2017

about debates I watched or rhetoric I heard from that incompetent campaign manager who destroyed Bernie's campaign.

NanceGreggs

(27,814 posts)
13. Not going to argue the points ...
Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:37 PM
Sep 2017

... and there are many, where Bernie denigrated HRC and the party.

But you can't discuss that here - because the TOS insists that Bernie be treated with kid gloves, despite the fact that he's divisive, attacks the party, and is a NON-Democrat who, for some reason, thinks he should be running a party he refuses to be a member of.

Luckily, there are other political sites where sainthood has not been conferred on Bernie, and such things can be discussed without interference.



emulatorloo

(44,120 posts)
18. The smears dragged and on after there was no way he could have won. All the way to the convention
Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:56 PM
Sep 2017

More Jeff Weaver idiocy no doubt.

We remember 2008,

We remember Hillary conceding when it was clear she was done.

We remember her getting behind Obama ASAP and working her ass off for him.

Never in my life has a primary candidate who is past the probability of winning continued to smear and bloody the front runner.


Just stop with the revisionist history.

NanceGreggs

(27,814 posts)
19. The minute you have to play ...
Mon Sep 11, 2017, 10:59 PM
Sep 2017

... the "but what about her?" card, you've automatically lost the game.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
25. You mean *white* working class. Not the rest of the working class.
Tue Sep 12, 2017, 11:06 AM
Sep 2017

HRC won most voters on economic issues.

"In fact, if we extend that out to every state for which we have exit polling, in 22 of those 27 states a majority of people said that the economy was the most important issue. And in 20 of those states, voters who said so preferred Hillary Clinton. In 17, in fact, a majority of those voters backed Clinton."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/12/02/in-nearly-every-swing-state-voters-preferred-hillary-clinton-on-the-economy/?utm_term=.5a7035f6c1e1


Most DT voters were not working class, and cultural anxiety drove them - not economic. The Democratic Platform is too progressive to appeal to that particular xenophobic, nationalist, homophobic, anti-reproductive rights, non-college educated demographic that spans the economic spectrum. And saying we should back off of our progressive ideology to appeal to this Demographic will cost us our base, and cost us elections.


“In short, the narrative that attributes Trump’s victory to a ‘coalition of mostly blue-collar white and working-class voters’ just doesn’t square with the 2016 election data. According to the election study, white non-Hispanic voters without college degrees making below the median household income made up only 25 percent of Trump voters. That’s a far cry from the working-class-fueled victory many journalists have imagined.”


https://politicalwire.com/2017/06/05/trump-voters-not-working-class/


Controlling for other demographic variables, three factors stood out as strong independent predictors of how white working-class people would vote. The first was anxiety about cultural change. Sixty-eight percent of white working-class voters said the American way of life needs to be protected from foreign influence. And nearly half agreed with the statement, “things have changed so much that I often feel like a stranger in my own country.” Together, these variables were strong indictors of support for Trump: 79 percent of white working-class voters who had these anxieties chose Trump, while only 43 percent of white working-class voters who did not share one or both of these fears cast their vote the same way.


The second factor was immigration. Contrary to popular narratives, only a small portion—just 27 percent—of white working-class voters said they favor a policy of identifying and deporting immigrants who are in the country illegally. Among the people who did share this belief, Trump was wildly popular: 87 percent of them supported the president in the 2016 election.


Racism and sexism predicted support for Trump better than economic dissatisfaction.

Of course, Trump’s rhetoric went far beyond targeting racial and ethnic groups; he also invoked language that was explicitly hostile towards women. These remarks were often focused 7 directly at opponents, such as Carly Fiorina and Hillary Clinton, or news reporters, such as Megyn Kelly. Adding to the litany of sexist remarks he had made during and before the campaign was the release of the Access Hollywood tape, which made major news about a month before Election Day, and caused many Republicans to withdraw their support of him. Such rhetoric was likely all the more salient given the presence of the first female major party nominee for president in the race. Scholarship on the role of sexism and gender stereotypes on vote decisions involving women candidates is mixed. While many studies find that women candidates do not suffer a penalty from voters (e.g. Claassen and Ryan 2016; Dolan 2014; Hayes2011; Pearson and McGhee 2013), other work has pointed to important challenges faced by women when they run (e.g. Huddy and Terklidsen 1993; Bauer 2016; Streb et al. 2008). Bos et al. point to the importance of role incongruity theory (RCT) for understanding when a female candidate’s gender may become salient to voters during a campaign. Specifically, RCT is based
on the notion that people tend to think that women should behave, but that political leaders ought to be assertive and independent. It may be the case that when a campaign highlights the way in which a female candidate is behaving incongruously, attitudes on sexism may become a stronger predictor of vote choice.


http://people.umass.edu/schaffne/schaffner_et_al_IDC_conference.pdf

aikoaiko

(34,169 posts)
22. After my initial reactions to that excerpt on DU, I decided to follow Bernie's lead and go forward
Mon Sep 11, 2017, 11:24 PM
Sep 2017

There is no use in arguing with people who think Bernie "paved the way" for Trump's campaign tactics as if the "Hillary as Evil-Doer" concept didn't go all the way back to the 1990s.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
23. Absolutely. We don't need a book that blames others for their loss, and divides the party
Tue Sep 12, 2017, 07:26 AM
Sep 2017

We need something like this:

Bluepinky

(2,268 posts)
28. I agree with the points you make in your post.
Thu Sep 14, 2017, 03:51 AM
Sep 2017

I too voted for Bernie in the primary and switched my allegiance to Hillary when she won the nomination. I don't like all the attacks against Bernie that I see on DU, which have been accelerated since publication of Hillary's book.

I agree that the Democratic Party needs to look at the issue around campaign finance. Big money in politics looks suspect, and it's easy for opponents to label a candidate "crooked" who has accepted large sums of money from corporations or individuals.
Trump used this to his advantage during his campaign; he said because he used his own money to fund his campaign, he wouldn't owe anyone any favors, and he would be free to "drain the swamp". Of course, this was all a lie, because he was actually funded by a foreign adversarial country, which is even worse.

Anyway, I think the Democratic Party needs to distinguish itself from the other party, as the party of the people, not the party of big money. That could be our slogan: "Vote Democratic, the Party for the People".




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