What if, in stead of calling for a second New Deal, it's "Great Society, with Peace".

[Ken Burch]

Last edited Wed Sep 13, 2017, 07:49 PM - Edit history (2)

Could everybody live with that?

(on edit)

I posted that idea in response to people who said, in another thread, that they preferred LBJ and the Great Society as a reference point to FDR and the New Deal.

[zipplewrath]

1. 9 out of 10

I suspect 9 out of 1 potential democratic voters would have no idea the allusions you are making.

[marylandblue]

2. That's quite a mouthful

[Ken Burch]

4. Changed it to "Great Society with Peace".

"Great Society with Peace" might be better.

[NurseJackie]

3. LOL!

[Ken Burch]

6. Nothing silly about it.

A lot of people who object to the New Deal thing have said they prefer the Great Society(and there are things to agree with it).

The only real problem with the LBJ years was the war.

[sheshe2]

7. Here is why I object to the "New World Thing"

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029586691

Here is an excerpt, the rest is at the link.

I see so many calls for FDR's New Deal for today, which in many ways was a huge benefit to Americans, yet left out POC. If you look at the timeline and read what Blackmon wrote, the New Deal 1933, for the eight years that it was put in place, the Re-Enslavement of blacks was still going strong and to an extent ended with the start of our entering WWII, it was well known and people/ politicians just looked the other way since slave labor benefited them financially.

So no, you can't tell me that part of the 30's will not follow as it is already here and always has been. That is the truth. We need our own deal not a 1933 deal and we need women and people of all color, LGBT...all making those decisions for our collective futures...not just a few, decisions for us all.

You can NOT have economic justice without social justice at the forefront. You cannot tell more than half the country that their needs must wait.

This is not 1933 this 2017. Past time for new ideas.

[heaven05]

11. ++

[sheshe2]

15. hey.

[NurseJackie]

8. There will be NO "New Deal II" no matter what bumper sticker name you use.

Social justice must come first. A living-wage minimum wage is meaningless to the POC someone who's not even considered for the job. "Free College" means nothing to the students in underfunded and neglected elementary, middle and high schools.

These things have already been rejected by the voters during the primary... millions and millions of voters rejected it. Time to start focusing on things that matter, not "trickle-down" giveaways.

And spare me the "we can do both at the same time" bullshit... when one says that (and people have) that just reinforces my belief that they really care nothing at all about social justice when willing to push it to the "back burner" and leave it neglected on "simmer" until it boils dry.

<-----

[heaven05]

12. ++

[former9thward]

27. "The only real problem with the LBJ years was the war."

"Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

[Ken Burch]

31. I didn't mean to imply that the war was no big deal.

My point was, had the troops come home in late '64, the man would have won a second term by a solid margin-it became unthinkable to renominate him after he escalated-and would be regarded as the Second Lincoln by one and all.

[Weekend Warrior]

46. So cute!!!! And on point.

Only two edits to the op so far. Stay tuned, it will evolve further. I've seen numerous ops of their completely change over the course of hours. To the point the initial replies no longer pertain to the changes. It's common to see four or more edits changing the actual thoughts put forward. It's kind of fun once you figure it out. Pretty clear to me you figured that out a long time ago.

[NurseJackie]

47. I'm not the only one. (Thank GOD!)

...completely change over the course of hours.

Or vanish entirely.

[onethatcares]

5. we'd have to eliminate

the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and all our dirty little money eating forays across the globe.

Nah, it would never work,

[Eliot Rosewater]

9. What part of "I am a white guy, I might not know everything or especially

dont know how the world around me affects NON white people or women."

Do you not understand? Your repeated threads about the same thing are proof positive that you do not get it! What can we, what can I do to help you with this?

Seriously! And this is not an attack on you, it is a sincere appeal to you to try and help you understand that which you clearly are struggling with.

And by the way, I am by no means an expert, but I think I could start by saying STOP, listen, LEARN from others...

STOP saying you know the answer, and listen to the people telling you otherwise, at least for a day or two.

[Me.]

10. Fantastic POst

I'll give you my recce

[heaven05]

13. ++

[sheshe2]

16. Thank you, Eliot.

[NurseJackie]

17. I've tried telling him this many times before, but he won't listen.

Probably because I'm older. Or because I'm a woman.

And by the way, I am by no means an expert, but I think I could start by saying STOP, listen, LEARN from others...

It's the same unrealistic stuff over and over again. Someone must not have been paying attention when millions and millions of voters REJECTED these ideas that he continues to push.

Changing a word or two in each variation of the nearly identical OP's won't make a difference. Giving it a new hashtag label or bumper-sticker length slogan won't help either. (Yet it continues unabated.)

We need SOCIAL JUSTICE for all before we even think about "free college" for all.

Be like Keith and "buck up".

[sheshe2]

20. ...

[Ken Burch]

21. This OP is the product of reading posts from people of color and women in another thread.

They are the ones who said they preferred the Great Society as a model.

People of color and women are not saying don't even try to do anything about economic justice.

And we are all just as committed to antioppression work as you are.

There's no need to have "pro-business" economic policies to achieve social justice.

BTW...Keith never said that all ideas you personally find too far to the left must be abandoned.

[NurseJackie]

23. LOL!

21. This OP is the product of reading posts from people of color and women in another thread.

I doubt it. I'd be very interested in reading it though.

People of color and women are not saying don't even try to do anything about economic justice.

Nobody is saying that they do. (Strawman argument.)

And we are all just as committed to antioppression work as you are.

Nobody is saying that you aren't. (Strawman argument.)

There's no need to have "pro-business" economic policies to achieve social justice.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Care to try again?

BTW...Keith never said that all ideas you personally find too far to the left must be abandoned.

Nobody said that he did. (Strawman argument.)

These are old and rejected ideas. We had an entire primary focused on these very things and those ideas lost out big time. By millions and millions of votes. Why not look ahead. Find some better ideas for 2018 and beyond. It's not 2015 any more.

[Ken Burch]

29. When you tell me to stop talking about any ideas to your left

you follow that up by saying "be like Keith", as if "be like Keith" means "never be to the left of HRC".

I am like Keith.

I don't personally attack Democratic politicians-I've made my language much more temporate than it used to be. I've changed on that.

I don't attack Democrats who disagree with me.

My focus is on ideas...and there is no harm in simply presenting progressive ideas.


Here is the thread where people suggested LBJ and the Great Society as a better model. I added "peace" to it, because we all agree, I think, that the escalation in Vietnam should never have happened:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029584605

[NurseJackie]

41. I've never done that.

29. When you tell me to stop talking about any ideas to your left

I've never done that. (Strawman argument.)

you follow that up by saying "be like Keith", as if "be like Keith" means "never be to the left of HRC".

I can't be responsible for how you choose to interpret words or give them (hidden) meaning other than their obvious meanings.

I am like Keith.

I very much disagree with you on that.

I don't personally attack Democratic politicians-I've made my language much more temporate than it used to be. I've changed on that.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? I've said nothing about that, yet you bring it up anyway. Why? (Strawman argument.)

I don't attack Democrats who disagree with me.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? I've said nothing about that, yet you bring it up anyway. Why? (Strawman argument.)

My focus is on ideas...and there is no harm in simply presenting progressive ideas.

Try something new. Something that hasn't already been REJECTED by millions and millions of Democratic voters.

Here is the thread where people suggested LBJ and the Great Society as a better model. I added "peace" to it, because we all agree, I think, that the escalation in Vietnam should never have happened:

Okay. So? I'm having a hard time caring about that. Give me some NEW ideas that are rational and practical and realistic... then maybe we'll have something to talk about.



PS: Be like Keith. Look forward not backward. Give up the old ideas of the past and find some new more realistic ideas for the future.

[irisblue]

22. +

[LexVegas]

30. Goddamn....preach!

[Eliot Rosewater]

32. OK

[Ken Burch]

33. I've never claimed to know everything about how the world around me

affects non-white people or women.

And I've never said we should not deal with social justice or deal with it only later.

[Eliot Rosewater]

34. So your answer is no thanks, you dont need to stop and listen and learn.

[Ken Burch]

35. No.

I did listen. This thread is in response to listening.

I heard about how the term "the New Deal" carries historical freight.

And I agree that we need to work hard against all forms of social oppression.

I'm active in an antiracist group in my home town, as far as that goes.

We don't have to put everything else totally off to the side to fight social oppression.

It can't be offensive simply for me to post here at all.

[brer cat]

44. Yes!!

Well said, Eliot.

[Wounded Bear]

14. "Deals" are for the Trump crowd...

How about "Promises Kept"

[Ken Burch]

25. That doesn't work as a slogan when we're campaigning from out of power.

I'm for honoring the best of the Obama legacy, too-it wasn't my suggestion that he be primaried.

But we need a more progressive program for next time.

This OP was recognizing that the "New Deal" reference brings up historical trauma and was presenting an alternative.

We can't get back into office by just saying "we'll do the same things we did from 2009 to 2017".

It needs to be a combination of that and connecting with new voters, nonvoters, and lost voters.

[Lee Adama]

18. THAT'S FRIGGIN' HILARIOUS!!!!!

[sheshe2]

19. Ken. In addition to my last post.

The economic stuff of FDR was palatable to many BECAUSE it was for them, exclusively, and excluded others? ... Just like 45 was palatable to many BECAUSE he promised to "get rid of them"..."the unworthy" , just like Reagan before him.

They all wanted to MAGA...make America White Again.

As I said this is not 1933 it is 2017 and is time to move forward. Frankly, I want those moving us forward to be a rainbow of colors...we are a diverse country and I sure as hell do not want to go back...to more interment camps like we did in 1942.

[Ken Burch]

24. And this thread is about moving forward.

People in the other thread said they preferred the Great Society as a model. I was responding to that.

And I have never proposed that the party take the side of white men against people of color and women, or to ignore racism, sexism or any other form of social oppression. Not once.

We don't have to renounce social democratic ideas to get social justice, or to have "pro-business" economic policies.

And I understand how specifically referencing FDR's actual era brings up horrible memories, so this OP was meant to propose an alternative to that.

[stonecutter357]

45. +1000.

[irisblue]

26. have you considered a political philosophy class @ a nearby Comm College? nt

[guillaumeb]

28. Judging by some of the responses, apparently not.

[Demsrule86]

36. No, Let us stop copying Roosevelt and come up with our own plan for the 21st century.

[Ken Burch]

37. OK.

But some people act like that has to mean coming up with a plan to the right of FDR's.

That what we come up with now has to be more limited.

[Demsrule86]

38. A realistic plan...I can't tell you what it should be...but we can figure it out.

[sheshe2]

39. No our plan is far to the left of FDR.

We believe in social justice for all, not the few. His wife was far more liberal than he was.

[Ken Burch]

40. I know that. And I have never defended anything FDR did on race.

I support a radical form of social justice...one that includes restoration of wealth(as part of social justice)to those, most of whom were women and/or POC who created it, in addition to the measures people generally include now as part of "social justice".

Personally, I support the manifesto of The Movement For Black Lives.

That's part of what being a democratic socialist means to me.

Always has.

[sheshe2]

42. So you believe and fully support Reparations? Restoring the wealth that was taken from them.

Ken Burch
40. I know that. And I have never defended anything FDR did on race.

I support a radical form of social justice...one that includes restoration of wealth(as part of social justice)to those, most of whom were women and/or POC who created it, in addition to the measures people generally include now as part of "social justice".

Personally, I support the manifesto of The Movement For Black Lives.

That's part of what being a democratic socialist means to me.

Always has.

The Case for Reparations
Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole.


And if thy brother, a Hebrew man, or a Hebrew woman, be sold unto thee, and serve thee six years; then in the seventh year thou shalt let him go free from thee. And when thou sendest him out free from thee, thou shalt not let him go away empty: thou shalt furnish him liberally out of thy flock, and out of thy floor, and out of thy winepress: of that wherewith the LORD thy God hath blessed thee thou shalt give unto him. And thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in the land of Egypt, and the LORD thy God redeemed thee: therefore I command thee this thing today.

— Deuteronomy 15: 12–15
Besides the crime which consists in violating the law, and varying from the right rule of reason, whereby a man so far becomes degenerate, and declares himself to quit the principles of human nature, and to be a noxious creature, there is commonly injury done to some person or other, and some other man receives damage by his transgression: in which case he who hath received any damage, has, besides the right of punishment common to him with other men, a particular right to seek reparation.


snip

In the 1920s, Jim Crow Mississippi was, in all facets of society, akleptocracy. The majority of the people in the state were perpetually robbed of the vote—a hijacking engineered through the trickery of the poll tax and the muscle of the lynch mob. Between 1882 and 1968, more black people were lynched in Mississippi than in any other state. “You and I know what’s the best way to keep the nigger from voting,” blustered Theodore Bilbo, a Mississippi senator and a proud Klansman. “You do it the night before the election.”


The state’s regime partnered robbery of the franchise with robbery of the purse. Many of Mississippi’s black farmers lived in debt peonage, under the sway of cotton kings who were at once their landlords, their employers, and their primary merchants. Tools and necessities were advanced against the return on the crop, which was determined by the employer. When farmers were deemed to be in debt—and they often were—the negative balance was then carried over to the next season. A man or woman who protested this arrangement did so at the risk of grave injury or death. Refusing to work meant arrest under vagrancy laws and forced labor under the state’s penal system.

Well into the 20th century, black people spoke of their flight from Mississippi in much the same manner as their runagate ancestors had. In her 2010 book, The Warmth of Other Suns, Isabel Wilkerson tells the story of Eddie Earvin, a spinach picker who fled Mississippi in 1963, after being made to work at gunpoint. “You didn’t talk about it or tell nobody,” Earvin said. “You had to sneak away.”

Read More: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/

Wow. 1963 Eddie Earvin was held at gunpoint to pick crops. 1963. And you want 1933 back. We were bad then and worse now...why? because we are supposed to be a civil society and there is really not much that we are civil about.

[Ken Burch]

43. I do support reparations. Always have.

If there had been a candidate in the 2016 primaries who had supported them, I would have, too.

As it happens, there wasn't.

It's part of the reason I supported Jesse in '84 and '88(in addition to the fact that he was the candidate who was closer to my personal views than anyone other candidate in those years).