Would you accept a border wall in exchange for amnesty?

[BluegrassDem]

Just curious what everyone thinks about such a deal? Trump gets his wall and Dems get comprehensive immigration reform that guarantees a path to citizenship.

I think such a deal would be a boon for our party in coming years with all those new voters.

[unc70]

1. No

The wall is a bad idea all around.

[DFW]

2. I live in Germany

We're kind of allergic to walls here.

[underpants]

3. No

[anneboleyn]

4. No. It would be a hideous failure on the Dems' part.

[MoonRiver]

5. NO

The so-called border wall was just a campaign publicity stunt. We need to push for a fair immigration policy, PERIOD. Btw "amnesty" in the context of dreamers is a right wing talking point.

[PJMcK]

6. Bad idea

The wall along the U.S./Mexican border cannot be built. There are numerous reasons.

- It is beyond difficult to engineer the wall in many places along the border
- Much of the border is a river so where would you put it? It can't go on the Mexican side since that's their country; it can't go on the U.S. side because that would cede the river to Mexico; it can't go in the middle of the river because it would act like a dam and there would also be environmental problems.
- The wall would be astronomically expensive, costing far, far more than anyone has calculated. After all, how many governmental projects are completed under budget? By the way, Mexico won't pay for the fuckin' wall.
- Much of the property along the U.S. side is privately owned and would have to be bought or seized by eminent domain. The lawsuits would extend beyond a hypothetical Trump second term.

There are probably many more problems with this stupid idea.

Additionally, your suggestion would be bad politics for Democrats. We don't want the wall.

[Major Nikon]

9. Not only that the enormous expense wouldn't end after construction

The infrastructure involved would be incredibly extensive and require constant maintenance and staffing otherwise it could be defeated by something as simple as someone with a ladder. Regardless of how extensive it is, it will still be defeated and the only thing you can really ever hope for is making it marginally more difficult. It would easily cost in today's dollars as much as the Apollo project cost, and would have the exact opposite symbolic effect.

[treestar]

53. as V. Fox told us: re, the ladder

[Mosby]

19. I don't support a wall either

But people don't seem to be aware that there is 700 miles of border fence already, a lot of it was built during PBOs admin. It's necessary.

[JonLP24]

60. A part of the fence was blown up

There are also gaps so people can simply walk to where the gaps are. The fence is ridiculous and McCain pushed for it "build the dang fence". They launched bales of marijuana over it with a catapult. Thousands of years technology defeated the fence.

Also there are ridiculous designs like peoples' homes & land on the Mexico side of the fence when they are really on the US side of the border and they have to go in and out of a gate.

[elehhhhna]

54. Also, how far into the Gulf of Mexico and the Pacific ocean does this wall actually go?

Last time I checked, people in Mexico had boats

[JonLP24]

62. Also tunnels

Gaza has a very secure perimeter but lots of tunnels in and out to Egypt and Israel. They use it mostly to import goods and sell at markets they otherwise wouldn't be able to do through normal channels.

[Fresh_Start]

7. No, the wall would be an obscene waste

there are far better uses for the money, people, and materials...like rebuilding after hurricanes

[Dave Starsky]

16. I haven't met a single person who thinks it's a good idea.

And I would seriously question the competence and/or sanity of anyone who did.

Even the Republicans I know just flat-out refuse to discuss it.

[Mike Nelson]

8. Possibly...

...they will need to redefine "wall" from Trump's original vision. He's started doing this and is promoting the idea his "wall" is making good progress. He's also wavered on the payment. Maybe if we say he did the wall without actually doing anything new, he'll be happy. He's a sham, anyway.

[ADX]

10. Not just "no" but "FUCK no"...

...a border wall is one of the stupidest ideas of all time.

[Dave Starsky]

13. It is THE stupidest idea of all time.

In terms of scale and expense, I can think of nothing else that even comes close. It makes Hitler's winter Russian campaign look like a sober, well-reasoned decision.

[white_wolf]

49. The Iraq War was pretty dumb, but I think the wall beats it.

[Tiggeroshii]

11. Essentially we would be spending billions of dollars in order to help assure people who came to this

Country to make a better life wont have to worry about being rounded up like animals in the middle of the night, separated from their families and indefinitely detained just so that the alt right can feel like they accomplished something? I'm actually okay with that. I mean we waste more money on worse, at least this will be going towards improving the lives of people who deserve it.

[Iggo]

12. Walls are stupid.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

14. It's a hideous waste of money for a complete boondoggle. nt

[Wounded Bear]

15. No...nt

[metalbot]

17. Sort of

I'm not willing to sign up for a 30' concrete wall stretching from the Gulf to the Pacific, but I'd be willing to sign up for enough funding to build some new wall and to enhance existing wall, and to provide enough funding that Donald Trump can say "I built a wall". I wouldn't be willing to jeopardize a path to citizenship just to stop Trump from having a "victory".

[Orrex]

18. The very notion of a border wall is offensive, so no.

[Not Ruth]

31. How do you feel about the existing fence?

[Hekate]

38. Down it comes, asap

[MichMan]

52. So zero border enforcement of any kind ? nm

[treestar]

55. Not of medieval notions

about methods of keeping people out.

[JonLP24]

63. It doesn't do squat as far as border enforcement

There are a million ways around it, under it, or over it.

[Hekate]

72. What a bs statement. You think that and only that is how border control is achieved?

Take away the wall and there's "zero border enforcement of any kind"? I guess it does not get any more simple than that...

[MichMan]

82. The poster stated that they wanted all of the existing barriers also torn down asap

I was asking if they wanted any type of border enforcement or wanted completely open borders

[Hekate]

83. The poster was me, and that is not how you phrased it, which was as an either/or.

Your sentence meant: if I want the existing walls torn down, then I must want zero border control.

Reductio ad absurdem.

Every nation wants to control who enters their country and for what reason. Not every nation is so frightened of the outside world that they attempt to construct thousands and thousands of miles of actual walls. You really want to live in a prison of your own making? Be my guest -- just don't call the result the USA.

[Mr. Ected]

20. One obviates the need for the other

Not that there ever WAS a need for a wall, of course.

[mnhtnbb]

21. NO F'ING WAY!

Walls are total BS. Spend that money on improving infrastructure.

[Runningdawg]

22. NO

[clu]

23. as a mexican

I can understand why whites would want to maintain a majority. I don't think a wall will help. IMO the best way to stop immigration would be to improve the conditions in mexico (change drug war, not sure we can change Pemex I think we already pumped it dry).

[Weekend Warrior]

34. "would be to improve the conditions in mexico "

Good conditions in Mexico for consistent periods of time would be the game-changer. We have failed to properly help in that aspect.

[Hekate]

39. And Central America

[Expecting Rain]

44. That position might make some populist-nativists unhappy.

Not me.

[Dave Starsky]

50. We could stop immigration tomorrow by arresting and jailing...

the CITIZENS of this country who hire people who are here illegally.

That means arresting Skip and Buffy Whitebread when it's discovered that they hired an undocumented immigrant to look after their kid while they are at work, because $30 a day won't cut into their Starbucks budget.

I would even be okay if the punishment for this crime were put on a sliding scale. Skip and Buffy fucked up; let's give them 20 hours each of community service to atone for their crime. On the other hand, over here we have JoeBob "Bubba" Factoryfarmer. He knowingly hired FIFTY illegals to work his lettuce farm. That's SIX MONTHS in PRISON for you, Bubba, and let that be a lesson to you and anyone else even thinking about doing the same thing.

Problem solved. Overnight. Yet no one talks about doing something like that. I wonder why.

[treestar]

57. Also too inefficient

and we have enough people in jails already.

And we'd need a million more ICE agents.

The best way to deal with it is just let them have the job if they can get it. The US citizen will be a preferable worker for most employers, so if an alien can get a job offer with full labor law protections, let them have it.

If we really can compete, why do we need artificial methods to keep others from getting the jobs?

[Dave Starsky]

68. My point is, we are just pretending...

to do anything to really address the issue of people coming across the border and "taking our jobs". And it will never, ever really be addressed as long as there is dirt cheap labor to be had and people to exploit. Everything we hear about our immigration "problem" and its "solutions" are just lip service. No one is ever going to actually do jack shit about it.

[treestar]

70. It's a system we have

We deliberately make it illegal, so they can't get full labor protections. So they work below minimum wage. We get lower prices and to wag our fingers at them that they are illegal.

Traditionally immigrants did the dirt cheap labor, but at least they weren't imposed on with "illegality." Now that we have minimum wage, etc., we can create a class that doesn't have the rights to those things.

So if we eliminated that, the natural market would take over. We might have higher produce prices though.

[Bengus81]

24. No freakin way..........

[Ms. Toad]

25. Absolutely not.

You are aware, I assume, that you are pushing right wing talking points: Democrats only want DACA, amnesty, fewer restrictions on immigration because it is the only way we can win.

[panader0]

26. No.

A wall would be an ecological, environmental and legal disaster.
And it wouldn't work. Crossings are down quite a bit. What about our
border with Canada? What about the thousands of miles of coastline?
It's a ridiculous, racist idea, and would have billions in graft. No way!!!

[Ninsianna]

27. This is a dumb question.

A border wall is a multibillion dollar waste of money that does nothing at all. Giving the pouty idiot his prohibitively expensive toy doesn't do anything for anyone.

Such a deal would be a boon to anyone seeking to destroy this country and only those willing to implode their party and their credibility would consider such at thing.

[Orsino]

28. No. Trump does not live up to his end of deals.

And I'm not very interested in his own face-saving moves. He should have to faceplant for promising a useless wall that will never be built.

[no_hypocrisy]

29. False choice

You don't make deals using pawns as hostages.

[elehhhhna]

59. Lgbt rights up next? Let's horse trade everything! Like a business!!1!!

[RiverStone]

30. Would you accept a fascist as president? No wall - ever. Not a penny of my taxes goes there.

And the Dreamers get to stay! There is no moral equivalency.

[ret5hd]

32. Looks like your trial balloon is made of lead.

[Weekend Warrior]

33. Yes. Without question.

Full amnesty is put in place the second the first section of wall is started. The wall will then be held up in the courts for years. People think a wall is just going to go up when it is funded. That is not the case. I don't even see them having the legal ability to build a full wall. It will be held up in court for a long long time. Doesn't mean they can't place the first brick and we can't get what we want.

[Blue_true]

61. Lots of environmental issues in some places, plus ranchers

lose grazing land. But if that fool wants to trade a wall for immediate amnesty, I am for it under the condition you mentioned, people get irrevocable amnesty as soon as the ink is dry on the deal.

[Weekend Warrior]

84. It would have to be outlined in that manner.

We also have to plan on holding power at some point in the next five to ten years. That will also change the dynamics. We can put forth new legislation at that point. If we don't hold power at the federal level at that time, we better get amnesty now.

[Laffy Kat]

35. No. Don't want to be that country with a wall. nt

[Downtown Hound]

36. Fuck no

I refuse to negotiate with terrorists. And the minute you open that door, there's no telling where it will end or who or what the GOP will hold hostage next to get what it wants.

No wall and no end to DACA! I will accept nothing else. The type of deal you're talking about would hurt the Democrats far more than help them, because it would only reaffirm that the Dems would rather sacrifice their principals (and us) than stand up and fight. That more than anything is what has turned off people from the party in recent years.

[Hekate]

37. WTF are you talking about? Schumer and Pelosi just managed to separate the Wall from DACA...

In addition, I watched on tv as the Berlin Wall went up when I was 13, and if you don't remember anything about that, it was the concrete manifestation of an evil totalitarian regime that shot people to death for trying to get over, under, around, or through it. Is that the look we want for ourselves? Is that the new American message? That we are afraid of the world and afraid of ourselves?

[sarisataka]

40. No

Amnesty, fine but don't waste money on a wall that won't do a damn thing

[Squinch]

41. No. It's a ridiculous notion.

[Justice]

42. No

[Alice11111]

43. No. It's a symbol of racism, isolation & belief in superiority

[bettyellen]

45. NOPE. No acheivements for him.

[Leith]

46. The Wall Is a Stupid Idea

Very few people cross over in the middle of the desert. They cross at the borders and airports with visas and stay past the expiration. A wall would do absolutely nothing about that.

The expense would be astronomical as well.

[Luciferous]

47. No

[TexasBushwhacker]

48. Until they come down HARD on employers who hire undocumented workers

they will still come because they know someone will hire them. I mean stiff fines and jail time for the employers. But the GOP won't do that because it's considered anti-business. Then again, I don't know of American citizens lining up to do back breaking seasonal work like harvesting crops.

[Blue_true]

64. Or milking cows with frozen hands. Or working in a hot assed kitchen.

Plenty of jobs US citizens won't do, like working a shitty weekend job after working all week on two other jobs.

[Warren DeMontague]

51. All countries control their borders. But a wall is a giant, silly waste.

Want to "do something" about illegal immigration? Crack down on employers addicted to cheap, off the books labor that they dont have to pay benefits to.

And recognize that there are millions of people already here that need to be integrated into the system legitimately. "Amnesty" is a loaded term, IMHO, especially given that the only other two options are the status quo and completely unworkable (not to mention immoral) mass deportation of 10 million or more people.

[Willie Pep]

75. I agree with you.

Cracking down on employers is the only way to deal with illegal immigration. The wall is just a symbolic gesture for the right-wing Republican base. It really serves no other purpose.

[JonLP24]

56. Not a wall

There are many reasons I don't find it a good idea. Among them are wildlife corridors. We need to allow species to freely move in habitats that are natural for them.

[Blue_true]

58. I would accept it.

Good people no longer have to live in limbo and we get a useless tourist attraction on the southern border.

I reality, our BEST choice would be to work with our southern neighbors on a work visa program for certain wage classes. People can come here to work, get paid fairly and go back home knowing that they can return the next season. People already here get green cards, pay a small fine and go to the line for full citizenship, they get the protection of the green card and a path to citizenship, most importantly, they come out of the shadows and live full lives.

[SaschaHM]

65. Yep, in a heartbeat.

The border wall is stupid, idiotic, and a meaningless waste of money. Comprehensive immigration reform with a pathway to citizenship for the millions of undocumented individuals living in the shadows would be a major boon for our country. It would be a such a beneficial policy that I'd put up with that stupid wall.

[tblue37]

66. Maybe a wall border:

http://discountwallcovering.com/1814-wallpaper-border

[northoftheborder]

67. Part of that border would be impossible to fence.

Rugged mountains on one side, high cliffs on the other. And the "border" actually is in the middle of the river. Are we to give up our half of the river in order to build this stupid wall? And what about all the irrigation water taken by the US and Mexico? Wall across those access areas? And tributaries that feed into the river? How to wall over that. IMPOSSIBLE AND A TOTAL WASTE OF MONEY.

[GoCubsGo]

69. No.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

71. Trump could be re-elected and progress on that stupid wall would still be minimal

come the end of his second term.

[XRubicon]

73. McTurtle: Top Priority, Make Obama a One Term President

This should be our number one priority now, make no deals.

[Willie Pep]

74. No the wall is useless.

It won't even succeed at stopping illegal immigration which is its supposed purpose. Really the wall is just a symbolic gesture for the rabid right-wing base.

[Shrike47]

76. No.

[Danmel]

77. No

It's an environmental catastrophy and ethically repellant.

[ismnotwasm]

78. Fuck no

[Warpy]

79. No, it's a fucking waste of money and it WON'T WORK

and I don't know why that fucking fool is so stuck on the idea. I was hoping Kelly would clue him in on other famous walls and how they were never successful, from the Great Wall of China, through Hadrian's Wall to the Maginot Line. They all had to be porous to allow trade that the various Empires depended on and that made them total flops as security measures to keep barbarians out. People went under them, climbed over them, went around them, or simply went through them after bribing underpaid guards.

[0rganism]

80. what's all this "accept/exchange" stuff?

if the border wall occurs at all, it will be a pointless boondoggle forced on me and millions of other hardworking taxpayers.

if DACA is preserved, that will be the just and humane approach to a complex aspect of the even more complex immigration situation.

either way, i won't have much of a say in these events. i will have to accept the wall and will welcome DACA reinforcement if it comes.

[Purveyor]

81. Absolutely. nt

[Mendocino]

85. No

Build bridges not walls.