HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » Are some on DU hoping Sin...

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:38 AM

 

Are some on DU hoping Single Payer Health care fails?

If so, why?

221 replies, 11129 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 221 replies Author Time Post
Reply Are some on DU hoping Single Payer Health care fails? (Original post)
Chasstev365 Sep 2017 OP
egduj Sep 2017 #1
brer cat Sep 2017 #97
sheshe2 Sep 2017 #106
whathehell Sep 2017 #133
ehrnst Sep 2017 #151
Me. Sep 2017 #162
ehrnst Sep 2017 #181
Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #207
Hortensis Sep 2017 #175
ehrnst Sep 2017 #179
get the red out Sep 2017 #2
InAbLuEsTaTe Sep 2017 #127
ehrnst Sep 2017 #152
InAbLuEsTaTe Sep 2017 #167
ehrnst Sep 2017 #170
InAbLuEsTaTe Sep 2017 #178
BeyondGeography Sep 2017 #3
m-lekktor Sep 2017 #21
madokie Sep 2017 #34
sheshe2 Sep 2017 #107
Post removed Sep 2017 #45
beam me up scottie Sep 2017 #67
MADem Sep 2017 #90
George II Sep 2017 #93
MADem Sep 2017 #96
mdbl Sep 2017 #102
KPN Sep 2017 #155
ehrnst Sep 2017 #202
KPN Sep 2017 #205
ehrnst Sep 2017 #211
KPN Sep 2017 #213
MADem Sep 2017 #217
ehrnst Sep 2017 #182
ehrnst Sep 2017 #171
NurseJackie Sep 2017 #174
ehrnst Sep 2017 #183
Orsino Sep 2017 #214
DemocratSinceBirth Sep 2017 #4
George II Sep 2017 #89
ehrnst Sep 2017 #150
ehrnst Sep 2017 #180
brooklynite Sep 2017 #5
haveahart Sep 2017 #42
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Sep 2017 #115
ehrnst Sep 2017 #153
seaglass Sep 2017 #6
genxlib Sep 2017 #36
genxlib Sep 2017 #44
HopeAgain Sep 2017 #161
stevenleser Sep 2017 #141
stonecutter357 Sep 2017 #7
LexVegas Sep 2017 #8
tymorial Sep 2017 #9
TCJ70 Sep 2017 #14
tymorial Sep 2017 #19
sprinkleeninow Sep 2017 #138
melman Sep 2017 #10
democrank Sep 2017 #11
Raster Sep 2017 #16
beam me up scottie Sep 2017 #69
George II Sep 2017 #77
democrank Sep 2017 #130
sheshe2 Sep 2017 #108
shanny Sep 2017 #125
TDale313 Sep 2017 #132
treestar Sep 2017 #156
LanternWaste Sep 2017 #12
Not Ruth Sep 2017 #27
QC Sep 2017 #59
LineLineLineLineReply !
beam me up scottie Sep 2017 #70
Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #95
lapucelle Sep 2017 #104
Weekend Warrior Sep 2017 #121
demmiblue Sep 2017 #13
Nanjeanne Sep 2017 #15
StevieM Sep 2017 #41
Nanjeanne Sep 2017 #63
clu Sep 2017 #137
ehrnst Sep 2017 #172
Nanjeanne Sep 2017 #184
ehrnst Sep 2017 #185
Nanjeanne Sep 2017 #188
ehrnst Sep 2017 #190
Nanjeanne Sep 2017 #192
ehrnst Sep 2017 #194
Nanjeanne Sep 2017 #204
shraby Sep 2017 #17
Lee Adama Sep 2017 #18
LyndaG Sep 2017 #43
ehrnst Sep 2017 #186
NJCher Sep 2017 #193
ehrnst Sep 2017 #206
NJCher Sep 2017 #208
ehrnst Sep 2017 #210
Joe941 Sep 2017 #20
Demsrule86 Sep 2017 #24
xor Sep 2017 #50
clu Sep 2017 #147
Joe941 Sep 2017 #212
sheshe2 Sep 2017 #109
ehrnst Sep 2017 #195
JoeStuckInOH Sep 2017 #22
Demsrule86 Sep 2017 #23
shanny Sep 2017 #131
Trust Buster Sep 2017 #25
JustAnotherGen Sep 2017 #26
Not Ruth Sep 2017 #28
JustAnotherGen Sep 2017 #31
HughBeaumont Sep 2017 #29
Greybnk48 Sep 2017 #30
Ninsianna Sep 2017 #75
LisaM Sep 2017 #81
Ninsianna Sep 2017 #110
ehrnst Sep 2017 #198
whathehell Sep 2017 #134
dawg Sep 2017 #32
emulatorloo Sep 2017 #33
Generic Other Sep 2017 #35
LonePirate Sep 2017 #61
Ninsianna Sep 2017 #148
ehrnst Sep 2017 #191
KG Sep 2017 #37
Hoyt Sep 2017 #38
ucrdem Sep 2017 #39
NurseJackie Sep 2017 #40
Old Vet Sep 2017 #46
NurseJackie Sep 2017 #65
Old Vet Sep 2017 #68
moda253 Sep 2017 #47
Hassin Bin Sober Sep 2017 #48
dembotoz Sep 2017 #49
emulatorloo Sep 2017 #53
LovingA2andMI Sep 2017 #51
Maven Sep 2017 #52
mythology Sep 2017 #54
samnsara Sep 2017 #55
snooper2 Sep 2017 #56
LonePirate Sep 2017 #60
NastyRiffraff Sep 2017 #57
JI7 Sep 2017 #58
TexasBushwhacker Sep 2017 #62
ismnotwasm Sep 2017 #64
ZX86 Sep 2017 #66
Blue_Tires Sep 2017 #71
ZX86 Sep 2017 #72
Blue_Tires Sep 2017 #163
Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #116
Blue_Tires Sep 2017 #164
lunatica Sep 2017 #73
TheBlackAdder Sep 2017 #74
George II Sep 2017 #76
ZX86 Sep 2017 #79
George II Sep 2017 #85
ZX86 Sep 2017 #86
MADem Sep 2017 #87
ZX86 Sep 2017 #88
MADem Sep 2017 #92
ehrnst Sep 2017 #199
sheshe2 Sep 2017 #111
MADem Sep 2017 #216
ehrnst Sep 2017 #200
George II Sep 2017 #94
berni_mccoy Sep 2017 #78
Eliot Rosewater Sep 2017 #80
LyndaG Sep 2017 #99
Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #117
stevenleser Sep 2017 #139
Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #140
stevenleser Sep 2017 #142
Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #143
stevenleser Sep 2017 #144
Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #145
davsand Sep 2017 #209
Ninsianna Sep 2017 #146
Eliot Rosewater Sep 2017 #154
wasupaloopa Sep 2017 #82
Adrahil Sep 2017 #83
Post removed Sep 2017 #84
ProfessorGAC Sep 2017 #91
Bradical79 Sep 2017 #98
Eko Sep 2017 #100
DesertRat Sep 2017 #101
JHan Sep 2017 #103
Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #114
JHan Sep 2017 #119
Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #120
JHan Sep 2017 #122
Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #123
radical noodle Sep 2017 #105
Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #112
JCanete Sep 2017 #159
JNelson6563 Sep 2017 #113
Weekend Warrior Sep 2017 #118
ehrnst Sep 2017 #196
shanny Sep 2017 #124
riderinthestorm Sep 2017 #126
Snackshack Sep 2017 #128
TomSlick Sep 2017 #129
LittleBlue Sep 2017 #135
LuvLoogie Sep 2017 #158
LittleBlue Sep 2017 #169
Demsrule86 Sep 2017 #168
Calista241 Sep 2017 #136
ehrnst Sep 2017 #149
ehrnst Sep 2017 #157
BainsBane Sep 2017 #160
JHan Sep 2017 #165
Demsrule86 Sep 2017 #166
Demsrule86 Sep 2017 #173
Chemisse Sep 2017 #176
IronLionZion Sep 2017 #177
HarmonyRockets Sep 2017 #219
IronLionZion Sep 2017 #221
Trumpocalypse Sep 2017 #187
CTyankee Sep 2017 #189
Starry Messenger Sep 2017 #197
LuvLoogie Sep 2017 #201
Raster Sep 2017 #203
Joe941 Sep 2017 #215
ananda Sep 2017 #218
Adrahil Sep 2017 #220

Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:41 AM

1. I don't think it's the 'what' but it's the 'who.'

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to egduj (Reply #1)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 06:53 PM

97. From what I've seen, it's the "how"

but maybe that isn't the narrative you wish to push.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to brer cat (Reply #97)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:12 PM

106. ++++

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to brer cat (Reply #97)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 10:56 PM

133. Maybe they're simply observing, rather than "pushing".

..just a thought.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to brer cat (Reply #97)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 01:50 PM

151. +1000 (nt)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to brer cat (Reply #97)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 02:48 PM

162. Precisely

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to brer cat (Reply #97)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 08:18 AM

181. Bingo. (NT)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to brer cat (Reply #97)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 07:13 PM

207. sure it is.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to egduj (Reply #1)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 08:04 AM

175. NO. It's the "Will we lose EVERYTHING in the process?"

Huge powers on the right are trying to destroy every progressive advance of the past 125 years. Right now while DUers squabble over this.

What happened to attacking our huge problems of

* Income disparity and the extremely dangerous accumulation of power and wealth in a billionaire class.
* Climate changes wreaking havoc everywhere, more and more frequently and disastrously?
* Fascism on the rise in America.
* College/technical training out of reach for millions.
* The imminent end of most jobs.
* The threat that SCOTUS could declare programs like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, ACA, etc., unconstitutional.
* All the rest!!!

How is it that the agenda of Sanders progressives dwindled into a great mission of replacing the ACA with single payer? Nothing matters but trying to create a new program that, before it was even enacted, could be swept into oblivion by 5 people in robes?

Is this what you should be doing right now?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hortensis (Reply #175)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 08:15 AM

179. Bingo. (NT)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:41 AM

2. Not me!!!!

I fully support it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to get the red out (Reply #2)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 10:02 PM

127. Not me too!! I don't see how anyone can consider themselves a progressive and not believe...

people have a right to receive healthcare.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to InAbLuEsTaTe (Reply #127)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 01:52 PM

152. One can advocate for that in other ways than Single Payer

Most other countries with universal health care get there with multi-payer systems.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ehrnst (Reply #152)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 09:49 PM

167. Never said there weren't other ways.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to InAbLuEsTaTe (Reply #167)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 07:44 AM

170. Many, right here on DU don't distinguish between Single Payer with "universal health care"

And therefore accuse anyone who points out that there are other ways than Single Payer to get to Universal health care as "being opposed to universal health care."

.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ehrnst (Reply #170)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 08:14 AM

178. Gotcha.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:42 AM

3. Because Bernie

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #3)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 09:20 AM

21. Exactly!nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #3)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 10:28 AM

34. Remember how some

here were with the O man, oh never mind

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madokie (Reply #34)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:15 PM

107. I remember well...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #3)


Response to Post removed (Reply #45)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 04:10 PM

67. +1

It has been interesting to watch.



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Post removed (Reply #45)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 06:12 PM

90. People whining about spittle-flecked rage instead of discussing issues is why I don't spend a lot of

time here lately.

It's a flawed plan.

It's too expensive.

It's too ambitious.

It's this, it's that.


I will tell you what it is--it is NOT GOING TO PASS, like it hasn't passed the last dozen or so times a guy named John Conyers has proposed it.

We have a GOP House, a GOP Senate and this bill hasn't a hope in hell. No matter for whom you're flecking your spittle. Not one GOP legislator is likely to cross the aisle and plenty of fiscally careful Dems will hold back as well.

We have a tough row to hoe hanging on to ACA at this stage of the game.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #90)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 06:24 PM

93. Actually Debbie Dingell has introduced one, and before that her husband, John, introduced it...

....for decades, and before that John's father introduced it for decades, going back to 1943. It's not something that gets passed just because someone introduces a vague, unfunded bill. Better to shore up the ACA and strengthen it rather than try to come up with something new.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to George II (Reply #93)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 06:44 PM

96. It's not going to happen. It's nice to rally round the flag, but it's more important to spare ACA

from certain death--and they're trying, ever still, to kill that. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/group-republicans-just-launched-desperate-171036554.html

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #96)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 07:46 PM

102. Trying to shore up the ACA and pushing for single payer are two different issues

Why it's an either or is beyond me. I don't think the repugs will allow either to happen.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #96)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 02:17 PM

155. Doesn't single payer momrentum actually help accomplish that?

i.e., spare ACA from certain death?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KPN (Reply #155)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 04:55 PM

202. Not really.

Any more than "repeal and replace!!!!!!!!!!!!!" got us any closer to universal health care.

The ACA is based on a Multi-payer plan, like most of the rest of the developed world uses to get to UHC.

Remember when Obama said that "you can keep your plan" when there was no guarantee that you could (because no one EVER has the guarantee of keeping your plan if your employer is the one choosing your plan) and the GOP used that as ammunition that the ACA was a LIE?

Yeah, that's what's going to happen with the promises of Single Payer.

Ask the residents of Vermont about that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ehrnst (Reply #202)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 06:56 PM

205. False equalization Vermont.

Vastly different/smaller scale. Economics 101.

Fighting for single payer now is the only way we'll get an acceptable solution (notice I didn't say single payer). It's also the position we need to take to actually grow the party and take the House in 2018. Being for the best we could get because of the Republicans will result in more of the same. No victory or accomplishment in that.

Do we want to win? Then let's act like it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KPN (Reply #205)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:56 AM

211. No, it's not the only way. And nope - not a false equalization.

People in Vermont were told it would work. It didn't. And when Sanders brushes off any discussions of lessons learned from the failure of Green Mountain Care, that doesn't bode well for his national plan.


Do you want to win? Then don't forget what happened when Obama said "You can keep your doctor" and how much ammunition that gave enemies of the ACA?

And no, it's not the only way to get an acceptable solution.

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/9/8/16271888/health-care-single-payer-aca-democratic-agenda

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ehrnst (Reply #211)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 10:39 AM

213. Is false equalization. Economies of scale is a huge factor.

Saying it isn't is disingenuous or uninformed imo. Vermont has less than 630,000 people living in it for crying out loud. Among all the States, only Wyoming has a smaller population but not by much. Geesh!

What I'm hearing here is denial. And that strikes me as pretty darned arrogant especially in the face of our party's recent decline and failures.

What I'm hearing is "we woulda, coulda, shoulda won if it weren't for every possible reason other than we didn't appeal to voters adequately to actually win. No need to change what we're doing. No reason to take a different tack.

Look, I'm not saying that single payer is the only solution, but running around saying we're for incrementalism is not an inspiring or confidence building proposition for most people. It doesn't garner votes from those who are currently dissatisfied and either didn't vote or didn't vote for Hillary in 2016.

My view? The Democratic Party needs to stop giving the impression that it is satisfied playing and operating along the margins rather than standing up for what is right for working class Americans. It needs to stand up and take on the socially destructive aspects of unbridled capitalism head on. It needs to stand up for the working class in a way that the working class actually feels like it is. Wonkish incrementalism doesn't do that. Instead it breeds distrust. Just look at the results.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KPN (Reply #155)

Wed Sep 20, 2017, 05:22 PM

217. NO. While a certain subset are pushing for M4A (which will not happen, not this legislative session

nor the next, nor the one after that) we see what the GOP has done--slapped down Graham-Cassidy like a stinky fish on our national table. And they're gonna vote on it soon, and if we can't find three Republicans to say "Fuck No" we can watch not only the ACA die a strangled death, but we can also watch the slow, steady dismantling of all assistive public health care over the next decade or two, or it will be held hostage like the debt ceiling.

You need an operation? Pricey drugs? Go Fund Me! And if you're not cute enough, endearing enough, or have a compelling personal backstory that touches the hearts of strangers (throw in some religion on your begging page, now) you'll die--because if you don't have the cash, your only hope is charity.

I'm quite disgusted at this "Let it all blow up....that will make the unicorn appear" attitude of these naive nitwits. People are going to DIE if the "revolutionaries" don't get off their asses and join the fight to preserve ACA. They're not doing it though--and a lot of the "Let it burn" attitude is coming from creatures that look pretty damn botty to me.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #90)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 08:18 AM

182. +1000 (nt)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #3)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 07:48 AM

171. Many here seem to think that Bernie's plan is the only way to get to universal health care

because Bernie says anyone who disagrees with his bill, or points out obstacles that he's not addressing is wrong.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ehrnst (Reply #171)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 08:04 AM

174. Well, they're wrong, aren't they?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NurseJackie (Reply #174)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 08:21 AM

183. But that would mean maybe they got other things wrong too...

And that would mean.... maybe anyone who disagreed with this wasn't actually corrupt.... or just trying to take away everybody's HOPE.

INCONCEIVABLE!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #3)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 11:22 AM

214. The fear that something might pass that gets called SandersCare is understandable.

Maybe we should junk it up with Republican amendments until he withdraws support. Would that be good?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:42 AM

4. I am for any plan that covers everybody and can get passed by Congress

I am for any plan that covers everybody and can get passed by Congress and signed by the president. This means there will be a Democratic Congress and president. The passage of such a bill is contingent on the support of a super majority of American people who will express their preference at the ballot box. Without that there is no way to pass such a bill.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #4)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 06:12 PM

89. That second part is key - one that can get passed by Congress.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #4)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 01:49 PM

150. Most countries do it with multi-payer systems

But don't try to mention that, or you are deemed a corporate shill...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #4)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 08:17 AM

180. It's no different than dozens of "repeal and replace" votes in that sense. (nt)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:46 AM

5. Answer: no

Some however may question whether Single Payer in an effort worth investing time and effort TODAY, givens the likelihood of success. For example, will Single Payer deliver the wins we need in 2018, or are other issues more salient?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to brooklynite (Reply #5)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 10:53 AM

42. I'm for UNIVERSAL healthcare. If that includes single-payer, I'm down with it.

 

I believe the ACA was the down payment on universal coverage. That's where we should be headed, in my opinion. If single-payer is proposed to do that all the better. It is important how the issue is framed. Many among Trump supporters do not look at Medicare as "government controlled health care." It's like an 80 year-old carrying a sign that says "Keep government out of my healthcare!" Thus, we need to do a really good job of making sure that everyone who likes their Medicare understands that it is a government-controlled healthcare benefit.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to haveahart (Reply #42)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:36 PM

115. This

is where I stand.

Many countries have universal healthcare with private insurance. Those insurance companies are highly regulated.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to haveahart (Reply #42)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 01:52 PM

153. +1000 (nt)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:49 AM

6. I don't think so. Seems people are concerned about the strategy of banging the drum

for this now when there is no way it will go anywhere in a Republican controlled government. That's a legitimate objection that some are mistaking for objection to the policy.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seaglass (Reply #6)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 10:32 AM

36. This is the correct answer

There is some advantage to putting forth a "Wouldn't it be nice ..." kind of idea that might fall on sympathetic ears in the aftermath of the GOP Health Care debacle.

However, there is some substantial hazard in pushing for a specific policy proposal. The amount of blowback is going to shock some people around here. The entire tea party was generated around the resistance to a re-engineering of just the individual market-place for insurance. And we needed all branches of government to make it happen. What do you think is going to happen when the entire insurance system (including employer based) is proposed to be scrapped?

Meanwhile, we have zero branches of Government so we have absolutely no power to actually implement such a policy.

There seems to be this attitude that the public will cheer Democrats for offering this. I think they have short memories as to how brutally we were beaten down by the opposition after pushing through the ACA. It has nothing to do with the reality of whether the ACA was a policy improvement. The GOP simply won the war of public opinion through propaganda and manufactured outrage. That will all look like childs-play when it comes to fighting back against a Single Payer.

That is just my opinion. Offering single payer now is an unforced error that will rally the right against us with absolutely no chance of success.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to genxlib (Reply #36)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 10:57 AM

44. Just to be clear

I support Single Payer. I just don't think we can get there right now and the backlash from the effort will do more harm than good.

What I see as more viable is to pitch Medicare as an optional buy-in for the ACA to provide competition or support in underserved areas.

This would stabilize the ACA while giving Medicare a chance to expand its offerings to all ages. If it performs well, it will attract more and more patients and swell in popularity.

The next step beyond that would be to offer Medicare in policy groups so that businesses can offer it.

If it succeeds, there would be gradual transition to the desired outcome.

This gradual approach is the only way I see it working. The most obvious reason is that the transition would be largely voluntary as Medicare proved superior. The less obvious reason is that this becomes a way to utilize the current funding mechanism of employer based premiums to support the cost. If we try to do it all with taxes, people are going to freak. All of those premiums paid by companies and employers need to be transitioned into the system to keep the cost workable.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to genxlib (Reply #36)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 02:47 PM

161. There was no counter punch to the Tea Party by the left.

They just out maneuvered the left in the public perception front every way possible. The ACA was undersold and under explained. We need to start convincing people that affordable healthcare will work out for everyone, not just a particular class.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to seaglass (Reply #6)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 12:43 AM

141. That is 1/3rd of where I am at. The other 2/3rds is, having been part of delivering some Medicare

 

services to patients, I've seen several of the holes in Medicare up close and I know that Medicare for all is not the panacea some want to believe it is. I've been backed up by several here who are on Medicare who have ended up with very large out of pocket expenses and that is after purchasing private supplemental insurance to layer on top of Medicare.

I suspect that Medicare for all is not the way to do this if we are going the single payer route. Medicare was passed in 1965 under assumptions that seemed right at the time (and yes I know it has been modified several times) If we are going single payer I think we should take a fresh look at this from scratch.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:49 AM

7. lol...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:52 AM

8. ...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:53 AM

9. I fully support single payer but the ACA was war and piece

This is the size of a pamphlet. Where is the comprehensive transition plan addressing the fallout for unemployment (retraining opportunities, assistance with relocation for employment within CMS for displaced workers who are willing to accept the move) and disparity in reimbursement rates so that healthcare providers can continue to provide the same level of service offerings while maintaining their organizations and staffing. These are just two items and should have been included. Funding is a serious issue indeed but the practical matter of continuing to provide healthcare is serious. Also the matter of huge layoffs is rather a big deal but I have observed some just do not seem to care (here.).

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to tymorial (Reply #9)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:58 AM

14. I've never received a 96 page pamphlet...n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TCJ70 (Reply #14)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 09:14 AM

19. It's a comparison. And a rather accurate one inmo

I could have gone with paperback but they're longer than the proposal too. Physicians are also currently under no obligation to accept Medicare patients and some practices have a cap on how many active Medicare patients they will see. A mandate to see and accept all Medicare patients should be tied to their license. Lastly, under the current Medicare reimbursement rate some hospitals and hcos will close their doors. I work in the industry, I am intimately familiar with medicare and the costs associated.

Look, I believe that universal healthcare will eventually happen and it SHOULD. It has to be done carefully with every aspect fully defined and explained to allow for ultimate success. I do not see that with this bill

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to tymorial (Reply #19)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 12:13 AM

138. I like what you said.

I'm not against anything. Just so what's proposed is done with care. Yes, every aspect fully defined and explained.

I think universal would be the way to go.

It's true that docs are under no obligation (and haven't been since I 've been seeing docs) to accept Medicare patients. They can and will cap the number on new patients.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:53 AM

10. Of course they are

The reason is obvious and has been stated in this thread already.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:54 AM

11. The answer is yes, indeed.

They show up like clock work... not to add their own ideas, but to torpedo this one.

It won't work
Costs too much
We don't want Socialism
Nobody wants it
It's a left wing plot
Why should I support anything Bernie wants?
There are more important issues
Vermont couldn't even pass it



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to democrank (Reply #11)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 09:04 AM

16. Oh yes, and completely predictable...

...however, slap Hillary Clinton's name on it...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to democrank (Reply #11)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 04:20 PM

69. Someone should make a bingo card out of those.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to democrank (Reply #11)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 05:32 PM

77. We don't know how much the most recent plan will cost, particularly since the most recent plan....

....doesn't have anything in it discussing how it will be funded. So your second bullet is moot.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to George II (Reply #77)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 10:40 PM

130. Maybe we could send a U.S. delegation on a listening tour to all the industrialized nations

that view health care as a right.





Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to democrank (Reply #11)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:19 PM

108. Please link to all the comments that you stated. TIA.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to democrank (Reply #11)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 09:51 PM

125. +1

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to democrank (Reply #11)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 10:54 PM

132. Yeah, pretty much.

People conveniently forget that even at the time, we on the left were told the ACA was a starting point, one that we would need to work to improve with time. Even the strongest supporters never claimed it was the ideal end goal. It was a good start. Start being the operative word.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to democrank (Reply #11)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 02:21 PM

156. Not here

I think here on DU it is only the idea that a Republican congress will not pass it.

If people want it they have to vote D in 2018 and get out and VOTE in 2018.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:55 AM

12. It can be convenient for a lazy mind to equate tactics with goal

It can be convenient for a lazy mind to equate tactics with goal, despite two wholly separate meanings.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LanternWaste (Reply #12)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 09:58 AM

27. Can you prove this?

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Not Ruth (Reply #27)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 11:52 AM

59. Posting something twice makes it true.

Posting something twice makes it true.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to QC (Reply #59)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 04:20 PM

70. !

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to QC (Reply #59)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 06:30 PM

95. Is there an echo in here?

Is there an echo in here?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Not Ruth (Reply #27)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 07:55 PM

104. "It can be convenient for a lazy mind to equate tactics wth goals".

Government-funded universal comprehensive coverage is a goal. Single payer is a tactic for delivering that coverage, i.e. achieving that goal.

There have been Medicare for All bills introduced in the past that called for the individual states to administer the program through state insurance plans. There are other Medicare for All bills that call for the federal government to administer it through one national plan.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LanternWaste (Reply #12)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:45 PM

121. Overwhelmingly, that is what the discussion has been about.

 

I think it's clear to a majority. Some view a simple discussion of the best path to be something that gets in the way of the end goal. Most understand that it is what's important in achieving the end goal.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:57 AM

13. Not me!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 09:00 AM

15. Probably but here is an excellent piece that talks abt the good politics of it.


This upgraded version of Medicare would also be a lot more generous in terms of access. There would be no cost-sharing, except for prescription drugs. It is, as Paul Waldman argues, probably best understood as an opening bid — a symbolic maximal demand rather than the usual pre-compromised Democratic fare.


The United States, by contrast, is very rich, and already dedicates way more than enough resources to set up the world's most generous health-care system, and a lot more besides. We spend $3.2 trillion per year — literally twice as much as the OECD average as a share of the economy. We pay enough in health-care taxes alone — that is, the government revenue that goes to Medicare, Medicaid, the VA, and a few other things — to cover a Canada-style Medicare-for-all system for the whole U.S., and then that much again in private money


[link:http://theweek.com/articles/724334/why-bernie-sanders-singlepayer-push-great-policy-even-better-politics|

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Nanjeanne (Reply #15)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 10:52 AM

41. This is a good article. But here is the problem with it.

"The way to get over people's fears of losing their (increasingly lousy) coverage is to promise them something so good that people can be certain they'll end up better off."

There is a long history in this country of people being scared off the moment they hear the words "taxes," "government," or "liberal."

I am not saying that this cannot change. And I do think it is slowly changing. Americans born in 1979 and later (people who were under 30 during the Obama/McCain election) are much more liberal. And, of course, there could be a backlash to Trump. But that doesn't mean that the post-Reagan dynamics have suddenly gone away.

Single payer may have to be implemented in several steps over many years.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to StevieM (Reply #41)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 12:26 PM

63. I agree. We have made big mistakes in borrowing Republican words and letting the,

define arguments. I remember how Joe Biden was ridiculed for saying paying taxes was patriotic. I wish Democrats would discuss taxes as what we pay to live in the commons and not give in to the fear of "higher taxes". But unfortunately messaging isn't a strong point in the Democratic Party.

However this discussion needs to be had and Dems should to start defining their aspirations for this country in ways that give people hope and inspiration. Obama won on Hope and Change. It was refreshing. We need big bold ideas and the words to inspire people to realize their taxes could go for things that make their lives better. Right now taxes are subsidizing corporate insurance companies that turn huge profits and pay exhorbitant executive salaries. Personally I'd rather have my taxes go for health CARE and not tv commercials. Seems like Dems could find the way to frame the argument better.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Nanjeanne (Reply #63)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 11:17 PM

137. thanks for sharing

 

important stuff

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Nanjeanne (Reply #63)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 07:52 AM

172. "Repeal and Replace" was the way the GOP gave their base "hope"

and it was "refreshing" in the face of Obama winning and having the nerve to get us farther down the road to UHC than we have ever been in our history.

They used voting for it dozens of times as a requrirement for staying in office. They didn't care if it wasn't really possible.

Do Democrats need the same sort of thing?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ehrnst (Reply #172)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 08:35 AM

184. I wouldn't mind Dems insisting over and over u till it became a mantra for

Americans -- that It’s time for Americans to stand up and make it clear that health care is an undeniable human right.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Nanjeanne (Reply #184)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 08:50 AM

185. You mean like "defund Planned Parenthood!!!" the mantra that will

make it clear that all pregnancies should be wanted pregnancies? Which is what the Right thinks.

Or "Build that Wall" is a mantra that will make it clear that we want to send a message to terrorists to stay out? Which is what the Right thinks.

Mantras aren't always right, and they can sometimes destroy their own goals.

Did the mantra "repeal and replace" give the GOP an alternative to the ACA?

I look at mantras, and I like to know what they mean before joining in. Sometimes they accomplish a political goal instead of a goal that furthers justice...

I know that there is envy of the right, with their slogans and mantras like "MAGA" that give them a sense of power that comes with joining millions walking in lockstep, but I had no idea how prevalent it was, and how much of need people on the left are expressing it.

I'm not talking about "universal health care for all!" which is an actual goal, but "Medicare for All" which seems to be more a cult of personality, and says more about a specific, exclusionary path to getting to Universal Health Coverage, at the possible expense of getting there at all.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ehrnst (Reply #185)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 09:10 AM

188. I have zero idea what u are talking about. Who said mantras are always right?I said

Dems messaging and framing of issues hasn't been as focused or as liar sighted as Rs and that it has helped Rs win. Perhaps you want to argue with yourself but I'm out of this silliness. Thanks for playing.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Nanjeanne (Reply #188)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 09:41 AM

190. I guess you think that the mantra you suggested isn't neccessarily right? Or you don't care if it is

Just that it unites dems?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ehrnst (Reply #190)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 09:49 AM

192. I'm sorry you are so confused. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Nanjeanne (Reply #192)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 04:34 PM

194. Well, that's one way to avoid coming up with a response... (nt)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ehrnst (Reply #194)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 06:24 PM

204. My posts are your answers. But you are unable to comprehend any of it. So there

is no reason to keep saying the same thing to your ridiculous comments. For further clarification, just read my tag line.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 09:06 AM

17. I've been waiting for health care that covers everyone since my kids were little

and we had no health insurance. They are in their 50s now.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 09:11 AM

18. Nope, some here are absolute realists.

 

We understand precisely what the current proposed bill is and hte fact that it has absolutely no chance of ever making it to the floor.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Lee Adama (Reply #18)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 10:55 AM

43. True, unfortunately

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Lee Adama (Reply #18)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 08:51 AM

186. Realists are such debbie downers... (nt)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Lee Adama (Reply #18)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 09:54 AM

193. Here's what you don't understand

Getting universal health care, Medicare for all, or whatever you want to call it is a process. So maybe this bill goes nowhere in an republican-dominated government. It forces representatives to take sides and it documents who stands for what.

So if this bill fails, another one will take its place. And so on until it is passed.

Because of the republican control, it will likely be a long time before we see universal health care. But it has to be put out there in the marketplace of ideas so that people can become familiar with it. (Although truly, I doubt that few are familiar with it, given that we are talking about something that touches each and every one of us).

While this process winds its way, what Americans and those who care about health should be doing is improving the American diet. Obesity causes most health problems, and to make universal healthcare affordable, we need to attack that problem.

Here is an article at Truthout that describes a type of program that would help:

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/41932-no-elitist-farmers-market-here-free-healthy-food-and-profits-for-farmers#15056563435741&action=collapse_widget&id=0&data=


Cher

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NJCher (Reply #193)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 06:58 PM

206. But there are other more realistic ways to get to UHC.

Why is promoting those off the table?

(IE - letting people buy into Medicare at 55, letting the system absorb and adjust to that for a few years, expanding SCHIP coverage to all children under 18, letting the system absorb and adjust that for a few years, etc..)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ehrnst (Reply #206)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 08:06 PM

208. They shouldn't be off the table

they are good ideas.


Cher

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NJCher (Reply #208)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:35 AM

210. They will be if M4A is the only acceptable goal

Last edited Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:57 AM - Edit history (1)

All those things, plus a public option to be expanded were HRC's plan, which was demonized by those who said Sanders' plan was the only way to go.

Think about the dismissive pushback that so many have to "the public option" as being a sellout and too much of a compromise.

At least when HRC proposes it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 09:17 AM

20. Not me. I can't afford ACA!

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Joe941 (Reply #20)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 09:27 AM

24. Really? So you would prefer nothing like the Repblicans?

Those are the choices.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #24)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 11:25 AM

50. I think Joe is saying he supports single payer because even under the ACA

he still has a hard time paying for medical care. Which is something that wouldn't be as much of an issue for many if the republicans didn't work so hard to water down the ACA, or refuse to work with dems to fix the various shortcomings that are inevitable with anything new.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to xor (Reply #50)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 01:39 AM

147. wow wise words

 

thanks for sharing

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to xor (Reply #50)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:08 AM

212. The ACA premiums are too expensive for me in this area...

 

So personally it really makes no difference if we have ACA or not. I don't have healthcare either way.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Joe941 (Reply #20)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:22 PM

109. ACA was affordable for me.

Medicare...which I just signed up for is 3 times more that ACA was.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Joe941 (Reply #20)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 04:35 PM

195. That's what VT residents said about Green Mountain Care. (nt)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 09:22 AM

22. For some, cult of personality and pettiness trump actual policies and progress. nt.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 09:22 AM

23. Mostly, those of us against this futile bill that has no shot...don't want to lose in 18 and 20...

The GOP will be able to turn this against us ...with a CBO score and even that old Bernie video...we have not shot at passing this and regardless of how one feels about single payer, the timing if awful; we should save the ACA first and then go for a public option when we are back in power. I am for universal coverage (leaving workplace insurance to die a natural death) not some big single payer bill which people will hate in general when they see the taxes etc...and punish us for as they did with Hillarycare.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #23)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 10:49 PM

131. by all means, let's not offend the republicans

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 09:49 AM

25. No, we don't want to see the ACA fail. Republicans were resigning themselves to the idea that

 

Repeal and replace is not going to happen and that an ACA fix might be the only solution. Sanders throwing the 'Medicare for all" issue right in the middle of the ACA campfire will send the Republicans running back to their bunkers. That issue is political dynamite to them. Accusing those the disagree with Sanders timing by painting those that understand the political reality is an extreme act IMO. I can't really respond the way I would like to such a broad brush of disingenuousness.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 09:56 AM

26. Nope - just realistic about it happening

With this Congress.

It will not happen until we have a Democratic President, Senate and House - we need to be realistic about this. It also has to be 'sold' as truly all inclusive and assurances to the 'others' that they will be included - no ifs, ands, or buts, about it.

Coates got a lot of folks 'woke'. Us is woke - and it might seem silly - but I think in certain circles there will be a fear that we will once again be asked to pay into something that Fed Gov 'red lines' from.

I know - it's silly - but you have to be realistic about a very large and consistent voting block within the Democratic Party. Us is 'woke' - and we won't be falling asleep again any time soon.

To get that block? Start now. Really - start now. Talk to black women about breast cancer death rates and make the play - you will FINALLY get equal treatment. Start now!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #26)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 09:59 AM

28. It is about waking up America

 

The politicians do not run things, we do

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Not Ruth (Reply #28)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 10:22 AM

31. Unfortunately - we don't get to vote on the floor

Only at the polls.

I also believe there will need to be concessions to implement this.

No one group gets 'everything just the way they want'. If I have to throw away college for all - to get this - I'm okay with that. Everyone is going to have pick one or two things they are willing to give up to have this.

It's call compromise - and it's what makes our imperfect union work. Remember - before the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Act - there was Brown V. B I and II. And, prior to that Plessy v Ferguson.

It sometimes takes awhile to get things 'perfect' - but that's the reality America.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 10:18 AM

29. All I know is . . ..

. . . I never thought I'd see the day where a Democratic board would have even a small percentage of it's participants semi-supportive of a universally declared human right.

Again, a case where Repubs benefit from us being all over the map.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 10:20 AM

30. I think we still have Russian trolls here

that strive to foment division and discord.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Greybnk48 (Reply #30)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 05:29 PM

75. We definitely do. Lots of spittle flecked rage from them.

That's the reaction to anything said. Universal healthcare has been a Democratic goal for decades, and there are myriad ways to get there, but they insist that it's some sort of team sport or popularity contest, and that there is only one dogmatic way to get there and if you're not blindly supporting that then you're evil.

That's not what anyone who has any idea of what Democrats have been fighting for would say or any understanding of how American government works would be posting.

Either we've got a lot of very angry people can't read, failed civics, don't understand what the CBO is and who legitimately think this is some brand new idea, or we've got some divisive actors who delight in cheering on division and toxicity every chance they get.

It could be both, but the latter group leads along the former group to sow their toxicity.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ninsianna (Reply #75)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 05:45 PM

81. This is so true.

I just today read an article on the efforts to get healthcare passed in 1993 and 1994. Universal coverage has always been the goal and single payer has always been on the table.

There are strong forces arrayed to stop this but I think the wall is cracking. Heck, even Obama thinks Obamacare is just a first step. In retrospect, it seems brilliant, because now instead of offering people something that they might not think they want, something is being taken away. This is opening the door to an even better system, IMO.

It's not going to change overnight. It just isn't.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LisaM (Reply #81)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:23 PM

110. I don't even know why they think it will!

People who are deliberately and willfully ignorant about how politics and government work are being led astray by those who are exploiting that ignorance.

There is a process, and it works incrementally. That is how progress is made, whoever started this whole disinformation campaign that everything needs to happen overnight really needs to be held accountable.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ninsianna (Reply #110)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 04:46 PM

198. Willful ignorance used to be the perview of the Right.

Not anymore.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ninsianna (Reply #75)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 11:03 PM

134. Yes, it's being a Democratic goal since at least FDR

but a lot of people seem to think it's some recent development.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 10:26 AM

32. I think almost all of us are in favor of universal coverage. Single payer is just one way ...

of getting there.

I think there is room for reasonable people of goodwill to oppose single payer while still supporting the goal of universal coverage.

Personally, I like the notion of single payer. But I'm a middle-aged self-employed individual who makes just enough not to qualify for ACA subsidies. All my options through the private sector are pretty shitty ones. I might be singing a different tune if I had high quality employer-provided coverage. (And lots of voters still do.)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 10:27 AM

33. No!!!!!!! Everyone here shares the same core values about healthcare.

Don't confuse discussion about strategy with "wishing for failure".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 10:28 AM

35. I am surprised to find any resistance to this idea

We have lurched about as right as we can get without becoming Repug ourselves!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Generic Other (Reply #35)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 12:01 PM

61. I'm guessing some of the resistance is based on selfishness or ignorance.

For the selfishness part, some people will see an increase in taxes or paycheck deductions because M4A will be more than what they are paying now, if they pay anything.

For the ignorance part, some people probably believe they will have paycheck deductions both for M4A and private insurance. Any private insurance would be optional insurance or for supplemental insurance beyond M4A.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LonePirate (Reply #61)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 01:50 AM

148. That's a bit unfair, since we don't know what this will cost or how anyone is

planning on paying for it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LonePirate (Reply #61)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 09:46 AM

191. So anyone who points out that the numbers in M4A don't add up as stated is either

selfish or ignorant?

What about the vast majority of other developed countries that achieve Universal Coverage using multipayer systems?

Do you think that they were ignorant or selfish? At some point they decided that Single Payer wasn't the way to go, right?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 10:34 AM

37. after 15+ years here, not surprised even a little bit.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 10:35 AM

38. Not me. Have been for S-Payer since 1980, will probably be for it in 2028.

I do not, however, think it is going to be as cheap to the Average Jane as people think. That will be a problem in selling it. A bigger problem is GOPers in Congress aren't going to support it any time soon.

I am much more excited about a Public Option (essentially Medicare buy-in) because that is easier to sell to people too stupid to see the benefit of a large single payer health plan.

If the government plan is anywhere near as good as we hope, people will voluntarily take it. At some point, there will be so few in other plans, that it will be easy to absorb them.


It's kind of like jumping up and down in excitement because someone proposes to eradicate cancer. Great -- I've lost too many to it -- but I know it's not going to happen any time soon.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 10:36 AM

39. Medicare for all is not "single payer." It's an insurance program. Like the ACA.

Here's the synopsis of the Sanders bill: "To establish a Medicare-for-all national health insurance program."

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/download/medicare-for-all-act?id=6CA2351C-6EAE-4A11-BBE4-CE07984813C8&download=1&inline=file

p.s. it's not a "health care" program either.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 10:43 AM

40. LOL! Sorry... being realistic and truthful does not correlate to HOPING for the predicted outcome.

0. Are some on DU hoping Single Payer Health care fails?
The entire accusatory premise of this OP is silly AND insulting AND divisive... all at the same time.

If so, why?
That question is best reserved for any individual trying to determine the motive and desired outcome from this OP. Seriously: why??

By way of an analogy: When my cousin's oncologist told her that she had about six months to live, he was being truthful and realistic. She didn't make irrational accusations. She didn't accuse him of HOPING she'd die simply because he told the truth. That would be silly, wouldn't it? What good purpose would that serve?

Obviously my cousin wasn't delighted with the news, but she didn't have a tantrum and she didn't take it out on others. She accepted it did the best she could. The made the MOST of what she had remaining. She understood what was possible and what could be accomplished in the limited time remaining. (She didn't waste time planning an extravagant around-the-world cruise for the following year. She knew that such a thing was impossible and unrealistic. She accepted that it would have been a WASTE of what little precious time she had remaining.)

We should follow her lead and make the most out of what we have.

PS: Fuck cancer! (Miss you, Florie. )

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NurseJackie (Reply #40)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 11:09 AM

46. Iam so sorry about your friend, Spent 48 brutal weeks in 2004 fighting "C" ...

BTW.. Your analogy is both sad and true Iam afraid...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Old Vet (Reply #46)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 01:57 PM

65. Thank you...



It was my cousin... just a couple of years apart... and we were indeed good friends too. She was always so optimistic and realistic at the same time... those two things can coexist in a single personality. (She'd have chuckled to know that I was using her story as an analogy on a political discussion forum.) Sorry to hear about what you went through. It's one of those insidious things where if the disease doesn't kill you, the treatment often does.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NurseJackie (Reply #65)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 04:10 PM

68. You are correct, The poison I injected into my body to kill another to this day..........

Affect me in so many ways both physically and mentally.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 11:17 AM

47. There are times I might want to purchase something

 

There are times I might want to purchase something and I know that it isn't a good time to discuss it with the wife. And I make a tactical decision to table that discussion for a time when things are more conducive to me being able to explain my position for the purchase.


Then again sometimes my kids sit and ask over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, AND over, and OVER, again and again and again and again.... Until we finally give in.

I don't know which tactic works the best but I know the one that usually results in us making a better decision in the end.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 11:17 AM

48. The Regan Democrat contingent.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #48)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 11:19 AM

49. few more folks than just that

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #48)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 11:31 AM

53. There are no "Reagan Democrats" on DU. Everyone is Progressive or Left Liberal.

We all share common core value that healthcare is a right.

You are confusing discussion about strategy and how to achieve our goals with "wishing for failure".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 11:26 AM

51. Yes...

And that is deplorable....

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 11:27 AM

52. Nope

Been a single payer fan for a long while now.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 11:34 AM

54. Given that when Sanders proposed this during the primaries

 

It was a laughable bill that claimed it would save more on just pharmaceuticals than the country currently pays for pharmaceuticals. I honestly don't trust Sanders to do the homework to make sure something is properly funded. Every politician makes some questionable estimates because it's favorable to their preferred outcome, but much like it was silly for Jeb Bush to claim he could deliver consistent 4% growth and his economic plans were based on nonsense.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 11:37 AM

55. i just wanted more meat on the bone before i got all gaga over it..

...of course I am all for it I just want more details.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 11:45 AM

56. how is it going to be paid for- 10% out of everyone's paycheck in the country

 

I know math is hard for Senators but they should at least give it a try LOL

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to snooper2 (Reply #56)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 11:53 AM

60. Don't forget the end of private insurance costs being subtracted from every paycheck.

So the 10% in your example will be considerably less for many employees and some will likely take home more once they dump private insurance expenses for M4A.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 11:48 AM

57. I'm not hoping for failure

but I think it will fail. I support any bill that moves us forward to universal health care that can pass in Congress. If it can't, it's just noise.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 11:51 AM

58. How can it fail if it won't pass ?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 12:23 PM

62. Yes. Just like the GOP was fine with "Romneycare" in Mass.

But when a nationwide plan, the ACA, was put forth by a Democratic Congress and Obama, it was suddenly the worst thing on Earth.

Was the ACA perfect? No, but we still supported it. Even when it meant higher costs for some of us, we were behind it because it meant more people covered AND THAT'S A GOOD THING.

Is Sander's plan perfect? No. But it would get ALL people covered. It would eliminate deductibles and expensive copays. AND THOSE ARE GOOD THINGS.

Why aren't people making objections to Conyer's Medicare For All bill in the House?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 12:26 PM

64. I actually hope single payer gets offered.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 03:36 PM

66. Either you're part of the solution or you're part of the problem.

"No that won't work" and "It's doomed to failure so why even try" Debbie Downerisms is not part of the solution.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 04:36 PM

71. Nope...

I just thought it shouldn't be used as a litmus test, I'm pretty goddamned salty that people couldn't be bothered to make this push back in 2009-10, and the whole thing seems like a fool's errand until we flip congress... and the white house... and the supreme court...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #71)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 04:51 PM

72. We're not going to flip congress by being mealy mouthed.

Republicans didn't capture the White House, Senate, Congress, state houses, and governors by keeping their powder dry and waiting for a majority to boldly advocate their policy goals.

The strategy of waiting to flip congress to advocate our policy goals is bad for two major reasons. It makes us look weak and indecisive and it also makes it look like we're trying hide something. What we say now is not what we will do when we get elected. We need to be clear, concise, and unapologetic about who we are and what we will do.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ZX86 (Reply #72)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 05:25 PM

163. It doesn't matter how bold or ballsy you are

If the votes aren't there to pass (and override a veto) it's nothing but masturbation

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #71)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:37 PM

116. A lot of us were making this push back then.

Sort of like how a lot of us were pushing for marriage equality back in 2004, when the pragmatists were on and on about "a sacred bond between a man and a woman"

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #116)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 05:27 PM

164. Not enough...

Certainly nowhere near as many born again hardliners back then, either...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 04:51 PM

73. I'm all for it.

I don't see why anyone would be against it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 05:01 PM

74. Yep. And it's quite obvious who the naysayers are, based off of certain animus.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 05:30 PM

76. Just about all of us are for a plan that will work and can get passed. I haven't seen one yet.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to George II (Reply #76)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 05:37 PM

79. Democrats have a bold new plan for universal single payer health care.

Follow, lead, or get out out of the way.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ZX86 (Reply #79)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 05:55 PM

85. "Bold new plan"? Which on is that? John Conyers' plan?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to George II (Reply #85)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 06:00 PM

86. That's one of them.

What's your point?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ZX86 (Reply #79)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 06:04 PM

87. The plan is not bold, nor is it new. No need to be rude.

Bill Clinton proposed it when he was running for POTUS. Hillary Clinton oversaw the task force when she was First Lady. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_health_care_plan_of_1993

According to an address to Congress by then-President Bill Clinton on September 22, 1993, the proposed bill would provide a "health care security card" to every citizen that would irrevocably entitle him or her to medical treatment and preventative services, including for pre-existing conditions.[2]
To achieve this, the Clinton health plan required each US citizen and permanent resident alien to become enrolled in a qualified health plan on his or her own or through programs mandated to be offered by businesses with more than 5,000 full-time employees. Subsidies were to be provided to those too poor to afford coverage, including complete subsidies for those below a set income level. Users would choose plans offered by regional health alliances to be established by each state. These alliances would purchase insurance coverage for the state's residents and could set fees for doctors who charge per procedure.[3][4] The act provided funding to be sent to the states for the administration of the plan, beginning at $14 billion in 1993 and reaching $38 billion in 2003.
The plan also specified which benefits must be offered; a National Health Board to oversee the quality of health care services; enhanced physician training; the creation of model information systems; federal funding in the case of the insolvency of state programs; rural health programs; long-term care programs; coverage for abortions, with a "conscience clause" to exempt practitioners with religious objections; malpractice and antitrust reform; fraud prevention measures; and a prescription drug benefit for Medicare, among other features.[5][6]


Bernie Sanders said it would bankrupt the nation in 1987. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=NyIWpYDP-PQ


John Conyers has been introducing the bill every year since, what--2003 or 4?


It doesn't really matter, though. It's not going to pass. Again. Not a prayer.

Politicians can cheerlead it for political reasons, but they're not going to spend a lot of time fretting about it--it's dead in the water.

Right now, the real fight is preventing the GOP from gutting the ACA.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #87)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 06:07 PM

88. The statement stands.

Lead, follow, or get out of the way. I'm not being rude. I'm being blunt. When it comes to human rights I don't mince words.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ZX86 (Reply #88)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 06:14 PM

92. I shoulda voted to hide, I guess.

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.

More fool me! Won't make that mistake again.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ZX86 (Reply #88)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 04:49 PM

199. Because if anyone disagrees with you on what will actually get to

universal health care, THEY ARE WRONG, AND DO NOT WANT HUMAN RIGHTS!!!1111.

Got it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #87)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:28 PM

111. Posts like this is why I have missed your voice here MADem.

Good to see you back.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sheshe2 (Reply #111)

Wed Sep 20, 2017, 05:10 PM

216. I pop in on occasion, but right now, the fight isn't Single Payer That Will NOT HAPPEN

The fight is Graham-Cassidy. And if we lose that fight, people WILL DIE.

I really wish the "revolutionaries" would do some revolting against that prospect. Instead, I'm reading way too much "Let it crash and burn" like they expect a phoenix to rise from the ashes. Pipe dreams and chaos. Putin-fed, some of it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #87)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 04:50 PM

200. Common sense and logic. Much needed here right now.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ZX86 (Reply #79)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 06:26 PM

94. Well, it's "lead, follow, or get out of the way", and on various progressive issues over the years..

...I've done all three.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink



Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 05:38 PM

80. Not at all, it wont even be voted on, so dont worry about it.

Now when WE control the govt, when all of US show up and vote for ANY democrat, then we can talk.

Might I suggest you and others focus on talking to your reps about issues that WILL be voted on, like saving ACA.

This bill will almost certainly never be voted on let alone passed.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #80)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 07:37 PM

99. Yup

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #80)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:38 PM

117. ...Booker, Warren, Gillibrand, Harris, and Franken don't know what they're doing?

I would posit, that they do.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #117)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 12:34 AM

139. You have some reason to believe they are healthcare delivery experts? I don't.

 

I like them a lot, but what ACA shows is that getting a health system right is very complex and needs very deep expertise way beyond "This is going to be great because my ideology says so"

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #139)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 12:40 AM

140. It's well past time to move the conversation over to Single Payer, and that's what they're helping

to do.

This has gotta be the ONLY discussion I've seen on DU where all of a sudden some of the best, most brilliant Senators we have are not qualified and don't know what they're doing, in supporting a measure like this. Did the Senators that voted for the ACA not know what they were doing? Some of them are the same people, here.

I've said at least once just today, for starts, that the ACA was an improvement on the pre-ACA status quo. Does that mean that it's the best possible answer we could ever achieve, or that we should cease all conversation? Obama himself said that, if one was building a health care system from scratch, a single payer system would probably make the most sense, both morally AND fiscally. Did the person whose name is on Obamacare know what he was talking about?

I think he did.

Part of the complex, expertise-requiring aspect of the ACA is the fact that it is attempting to incorporate and placate a for-profit insurance industry that, in some cases, adds something like 20% overhead to health care costs. It's not "ideology" that says a single payer, single pool system that takes the for-profit industry out of the equation would be better for almost everyone (except, again, those with ties to that industry), it's pretty basic logic.

Medicare for all would be, in many ways, a tremendous simplification to a needlessly complex system.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #140)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 12:47 AM

142. That's because some here seem to want to ignore both lessons learned from ACA and want to ignore

 

the very real holes in Medicare and pretend as if it is some sort of panacea.

If we are going to do single payer right, we need to first have the conversation of whether Medicare is the right starting point or whether we should start from scratch.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #142)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 12:56 AM

143. I think that's a great conversation, actually, Steven.

I really do.

But we shouldn't pretend that the status quo, even with the improvements brought by the ACA, is any great shakes either. That it couldn't be better. Or that we can't learn from other countries.


My feeling- and I'm not a Senator OR a "Health Care Expert"- is that the most logical way to get to a SPHC would be through filling in the gaps via expansion of medicare on one end and expansion of medicaid on the other, until the whole board is covered.

And lets talk about whats wrong with it. And lets have a real talk about the other elephant in the room, the cost book or cost tome or whatever it is called:

http://content.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,33009,2136864,00.html

Medicare's not perfect, but it's also been pretty successful at its primary goal, namely providing health insurance to a group of people- old people- who would traditionally not be looked favorably upon by profit-driven insurance companies for some pretty obvious reasons. If it can work for old people, at least somewhat, it can probably work for everyone else.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #143)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 12:59 AM

144. And there is something else too that I feel very strongly about. I suspect dual tier is better

 

We should also be examining whether a system designed as dual tier right from the get-go might be better. The system that has the best health outcomes in the world is not single payer, it is dual tier, and I am talking about France.

In France all citizens get the government payer healthcare and they have the option to layer private insurance on top of it for faster service and a few other perks. 80% of the population in France opts to layer the private over the government health insurance.

If we are having conversations like these, we should be talking about dual tier as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-tier_healthcare

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #144)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 01:07 AM

145. Given the nature of the American psyche

I would suspect you will always have an ability for people who want to pay more, to get something better.

Im not on medicare - not yet! Old, but not THAT old- but cant ppl on medicare buy supplemental plans, etc? Too?

And yes, i realize that the holes in medicare which sometimes necessitate such additional expenditures is one of the criticisms.


My personal feeling is, establish a ground floor (which we already have, after a fashion, albeit it is done in the worst and most expensive way possible- like if someone broke shows up at the ER with a head wound, they arent turned away)

.... then, if people pay for more, that is their call. Sort of like how everyone pays for public school (at least until the voucher people get done with it) but some opt to pay for private schools instead, etc.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #140)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 10:46 PM

209. Absolutely agree with you on this.

I cannot fathom that so many of the people lauded here at DU for so long have suddenly taken leave of their senses. ACA was a compromise that happened after Joe Lieberman screwed the Dem voters by refusing a public option. We are now at a point in this country where voters ARE aware of how bad it can be here if the rabid rethugs like Ryan manage to repeal the one safety net that exists. They understand intimately how badly they were mislead and they actually want a fix--a permanent one. Has nobody considered that the GOP could still save themselves as a party if they'd offer the public option to buy in to Medicare then FIXED the existing issues in Medicare right now? IF they want a way out, Medicare for all could offer it.

I've heard all the "Medicare sucks/I'd rather have 30 million people without healthcare" arguments and spin. I'm sure everybody here has too. Sometimes I think it is confusion between Medicare and Medicaid. Sometimes I think they miss the part about FIXING some of the existing programs. Other times I think the reaction is nothing more than an unhappiness with whose name is on the bill. There are a few notable one who I think are just working at quashing entire idea for whatever motivation they carry. It's sad to me that there is any question at all about the need to ensure that nobody has to suffer and die because they can't afford medical care.

I couldn't give two shits about what name anybody wants to call it (however, I do have to concede that I hear an awful lot of people from both parties say they are grateful for Medicare, so at least they understand the form and the utility without a lot of education. That might be a bonus...) If there is some spectacular name that needs to be used--go for it. I'm right there with you as long as everybody is covered cradle to grave.

YMMV.


Laura

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #117)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 01:35 AM

146. They do, they also know this isn't going to make it to the floor and they see

this for what it is.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #117)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 01:56 PM

154. The bill forced them to take a position, they know the bill wont be voted on let alone passed

so they are showing support for something they believe in.

I believe in it too, and when we have control and not a minute before that, I will want the bill to pass and become law. But without control of the situation, it wont be voted on let alone passed, we all know that.

we need to focus on improving ACA and preventing the murderers in the GOP from killing it, which they are going to try and do again in a few days.

I am also sure that single payer will be a litmus test and will sink the party, again.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 05:47 PM

82. It's the old pragmatists vs the idealist. It is easy to say you are for

 

single payer and not go any deeper into what is involved while feeling superior to anyone who wants to speak about the issues that need to be dealt with.

Most people here have very little idea of how any health system works

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 05:49 PM

83. I support it, provided....

 

1) there is a mechaism to protect us from sudden reductions in benefits.
2) the funding mechaism is clear, amd realistic
3) im not looking at a reduction of complication of benefits.
4) there is planned transition from employer-provided to single payer that doesn't cost me a fortune.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 06:12 PM

91. Yes, And The Reason Is Obvious

Everyone knows what I mean!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 07:06 PM

98. Yes, absolutely

 

I think they've made that clear recently and in the past.

Edit: The reasoning of some is clearly more honest than others, but it is fair to say that there are multiple successful single payer, multi-payer, and hybrid universal health care systems out there. Being against Sanders' or the House's specific bills doesn't automatically mean someone us anti-UH or evem anti-single payer.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 07:38 PM

100. DA!

You should ask them if they have stopped beating their wives also.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 07:44 PM

101. I'm for universal healthcare

I'll support single payer. Anyway that we can get universal coverage passed works for me. I don't care if they name it Trump's Awesome Healthcare if it would get it through Congress and onto his desk.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 07:47 PM

103. er no. And there are excellent replies in this thread explaining why this perception is wrong.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JHan (Reply #103)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:35 PM

114. sure, or people can just use their eyes.

Everyone knows what's going on, here.

No one is fooled.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #114)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:42 PM

119. up to them really .. *shrug*

people will believe whatever.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JHan (Reply #119)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:43 PM

120. No, actually, they won't.

those of us who have been here for a while know all the games already.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #120)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:49 PM

122. mmmhmm

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JHan (Reply #122)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:59 PM

123. "Ever seen a shirt make a phone call?"

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 07:55 PM

105. I want to know exactly what is proposed

how it will work, and how it will affect us. I still don't understand how anyone could conceive of Medicare for all as being single payer. Where are the details? That's all I want to know.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:31 PM

112. No, the John Conyers version in the House is fine.

For some odd reason, though, the one in the Senate proposing essentially the same idea seems to get some folks here really bothered. Can't imagine why that is!



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #112)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 02:40 PM

159. to be fair, its fine because it is hardly talked about. nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:35 PM

113. I've been for it since Conyers started proposing it!

Long ago!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 08:40 PM

118. Seems the answer is almost unanimous.

 

Cleared that up pretty well.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Weekend Warrior (Reply #118)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 04:38 PM

196. The answer is no. People want Universal Health Care, and refusing

a possible route to it by insisting on a very expensive and unlikely measure is common sense.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 09:49 PM

124. I think some would prefer not to see Hillary

 

proven wrong ("never happen"

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 09:54 PM

126. Yes. And it's obvious why because it's Bernies proposal

 

Virtually the exact same legislation as Conyers but only Sanders is the problem.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 10:05 PM

128. I fully support it.

Last edited Sat Sep 16, 2017, 12:15 AM - Edit history (1)

Other developed nations have had this for a very long time and their systems work well. So the fundamentals of a working system are well known it is not a case of having to reinvent the wheel. We already have a system for seniors that could be expand to encompass a greater age range.

As for the cost...when I read how the Dept. of Defense over the last 2 decades has lost trillions of dollars, plus dropped over a trillion to make a plane work on top of dropping a few trillion more for wars (and this is just one of many government departments) saying it is too expensive is laughable.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 10:17 PM

129. I have some concerns.

The Medicare reimbursement rate is really low. I'm not convinced that hospitals can survive is everyone is on Medicare. Raising the Medicare reimbursement rate will, of course, raise the cost of Medicare for All.

I think there is a lot of thought that needs to be given to how a Medicare for All system would work and would be paid for. In the meanwhile, the Repugnants have still not given up on repealing the ACA. We need to win that battle before taking on a bigger one.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 11:06 PM

135. The moment Hillary came out against it, the tone of this forum changed for the worse

 

Suddenly you had a hardcore group of supporters who did a 180 on single payer healthcare, despite it being the one universally liked policy since I first started lurking on DU in the early 2000s. It was utterly bizarre to see so many people abandon long-held beliefs simply because Bernie supported it.

It's really turned me off to politics and made me indifferent to voting or even participating. You realize that this is all a cynical football game involving party politics and has nothing to do with making the country better. I see why so many people are jaded by politics and give up.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LittleBlue (Reply #135)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 02:37 PM

158. It was more Bernie's answer to its failure in Vermont.

"I 'm not the governor."

We had an example. It passed on a local level. When it came time to fund it, they couldn' t.

They asked Bernie to comment, and his answer was void of any specific idea on already existing law.

Hillary wanted people to concentrate on shoring up the ACA, which is established federal law. That is the wiser course. Ted Kennedy always regretted not taking the deal with Nixon over Healthcare. That delayed reform by forty years.

The Revolution still wants its litmus tested Healthcare bill.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LuvLoogie (Reply #158)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 04:28 AM

169. It fails in every state because states can't raise the tax revenue per capita

 

that the fedgov can. It's really that simple.

Top fed tax rate is 39.6%. The marginal rates for states that have state income tax is around 3-5% top marginal rate.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LittleBlue (Reply #135)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 10:07 PM

168. I want universal care...but I want the ACA to survive...and this bill helps the GOP kill it.

There is a time and a place for single payer...but not when we have no power at all.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Fri Sep 15, 2017, 11:07 PM

136. Healthcare companies employs over 12 million people across the US

Someone is going to have to come up with jobs for those people before any of this happens.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 01:48 PM

149. I'm hoping that the demand for it doesn't hurt chances for Universal Health Care

Because the goal is universal health care, in the quickest, most realistic way to get there.

Most of the rest of the developed world gets there with multi-payer systems, so ruling those out might be self-defeating.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 02:22 PM

157. Are some on DU trying to start a flame war?

If so, why?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 02:42 PM

160. The problem is getting the GOP to bring it up for a vote

Last edited Sat Sep 16, 2017, 06:07 PM - Edit history (1)

Not DU, but the fact it has been used to attack Democrats, voters and legislators, proves that is its sole purpose, not becoming law. I'll take it seriously when its proponents start to. That means discussing its content rather than insulting anything who asks questions. It's almost as if the approach is devised to undermine the goal of single payer. If that isn't the goal, people need to undergo a serous rethinking of tactics. Legislation requires broad, bi-partisan coalitions. That means insulting people as right wingers for asking about how it will be paid for pr asking for the bill to be submitted to the CBO for scoring is counterproductive. You can't get anything passed by declaring most of the country and congress the enemy. Until I see some activity consistent with passing legislation, I find it impossible to believe those invoking the bill are at all concerned with its becoming law.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BainsBane (Reply #160)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 05:44 PM

165. kicked and recommended for your comment.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Sat Sep 16, 2017, 05:56 PM

166. I think they are and boy will they be sorry when the outcome is nothing...no healthcare

of any kind...and the backlash will be severe.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 07:55 AM

173. If you are referring to the Sander's bill...it won't fail because it

never had a chance with the GOP in control We should have been working on the ACA...not this and not now.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 08:08 AM

176. I'm not hoping it fails; I know it will fail.

And that's okay, because the discussion of it is bringing us closer to it actually happening someday.

I've always thought the most painless way for it to happen is gradually. Medicaid expansion, Medicare covering 55 and up, etc.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 08:10 AM

177. Some on DU will always want our side to fail

and have a very negative defeatist attitude and could have their own mental health issues like depression. Obamacare covers mental health screenings and treatments. Does single payer?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to IronLionZion (Reply #177)

Wed Sep 20, 2017, 06:28 PM

219. Medicare for all does cover mental health and substance abuse treatment services

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to HarmonyRockets (Reply #219)

Wed Sep 20, 2017, 07:42 PM

221. The DUers who have a deeply negative defeatist attitude towards all this

may benefit from mental health screenings or substance abuse treatment

I'm of course talking about the ones who claim we'll never get Medicare for all so there's no point trying. Our votes don't matter so no point voting. That sort of nonsense reeks of depression.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 08:56 AM

187. Not hoping that it fails

but am doubtful that it will pass anytime soon.

However, it is great to start this discussion now. Once the discussion began on same sex marriage, it ultimately led to its acceptance.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #187)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 09:20 AM

189. we gotta start with the propagandistic "socialized medicine" of the past. There are still

those who feared socialized medicine but they are dying off. Except for the Trump base people who are sad or angry or both. Until we can understand them and find a way to educate them, we will have this situation. It took a LONG time for lots of progressive (outrageous) ideas mainstream: end of racial segregation, enfranchisement of people of color and women, etc. And Trump's base seems just fine with voting against their best interests (something I don't quite understand).

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 04:38 PM

197. Hoping it fails? That's a stupid question.

Being able to do math means most of us know it will fail. We can barely hang on to the ACA with the vote count we have. I don't mind it being introduced now, but if ACA is repealed, we aren't getting single payer as a consolation prize.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 04:54 PM

201. Not as many as are here hoping for the ACA to fail. We all know why.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LuvLoogie (Reply #201)

Sun Sep 17, 2017, 05:06 PM

203. I don't think ANYONE on this site wants the ACA to fail...

....but please explain why you think why some here are hoping for the ACA to fail and please explain your "we all know why" comment.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 12:05 PM

215. Because Bernie introduced it and anything associated with Bernie will be rejected.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Wed Sep 20, 2017, 05:28 PM

218. Really?

What a question?

That's like asking: are you secretly hoping
people will go broke and die?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Chasstev365 (Original post)

Wed Sep 20, 2017, 06:41 PM

220. It needs funding machinist included.

 

The bill as it stands is incomplete.

Not that it has a snowball's chance in hell in its present form.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread