War with NK will be inevitable.

[Rustyeye77]

For decades we have suffered repeated levels of extortion from the NK.

We cant get China or Russia to work with us on sanctions.

Apparently NK thinks were are paper tigers... WITH DAILY THREATS.

BUT....We should try to negotiate with them....AGAIN.

And it sucks that we have an idiot in the WH.

But sooner or later we cannot allow idiot little kim to threaten ICBMs to any country it wants.


Just my $0.02

Flame away.

If anyone feels comfortable with kim having nukes, youre better than me.

[MoonRiver]

1. What do you suggest we do?

[Rustyeye77]

5. Direct talks.

And when that fails, destroy their military.

that's the best I got.

[MoonRiver]

7. And how do we destroy their military (cause talks have failed for decades)?

[Rustyeye77]

11. I really hope our military will have that answer.

[paleotn]

23. They do and certainly can..

That's not the issue. The issue is collateral damage that only a psychopath would be willing to accept. That's the issue. And then there's the aftermath. A humanitarian crises beyond anything anyone has seen since WWII.

[Hortensis]

40. This OP reminds me of the 1970s. Every gathering wound down with

tiring people abandoning their animated topics of weekends and vacations to agree the world was going to be blown up anyway and then heading off to home. Of course, not quite everyone agreed, but interrupting the faux-fatalistic little routine with a raspberry just wasn't done.

[MoonRiver]

69. I hope not.

[jmowreader]

29. Their military is in very deep tunnels so that you can't destroy it

I wonder...KJU has gone into overdrive since Trump was inaugurated, like he's some kind of weird concoction made by throwing...


Vicente Fox's opinion of Trump...


Anton Chigurh's barber...


and Attila the Hun's peace-loving ways into a blender and turning it on.

Is (1) KJU just trolling the United States for electing such an incompetent ass to be president, and (2) how do we get him to stop?

[pangaia]

58. I doubt my friends in Seoul and Incheon would agree with you.

Wanna to stand in Sejong Square while we attack the DPRK?

:&gt )

[Not Ruth]

60. Which President should begin direct talks, because we have never ever had them

And only Ford has ever been able to get anywhere with them.

"On August 18, 1976, Captain Arthur Bonifas and Lieutenant Mark Barrett were killed by the North Korean Army with axes at Panmunjom in the Korean Demilitarized Zone, when the Americans were engaged in routine tree-clearing. The attack coincided with a meeting of the Conference of Non-Aligned Nations in Colombo, Sri Lanka, at which Kim Jong-il, the son of North Korean leader Kim Il-sung, presented the incident as an example of American aggression, helping secure the passage of a motion calling for a U.S. withdrawal from the South. The Ford administration decided that it was necessary to respond with a major show of force. The North Korean government backed down and allowed the tree-cutting to go ahead, and later issued an unprecedented official apology."

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

2. No flames here... I agree. The Fuhrer-in-Chief is going to get us all killed.

[paleotn]

32. He's going to get a lot of people killed

unless he shuts his damn mouth and quits telegraphing the North Korean's worst fears. Only a nut case would order a preemptive strike and 45 is doing his best to convince NK he's crazy enough to do it.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

66. Yup yup... seems only question now is: who's gonna strike first?

Two dumb-asses tryin to out wit each other... doesn't seem like a very good situation for securing a peaceful resolution.

[onlyadream]

81. A conundrum for sure

Reminds me of when I stupidly decided to take one last summer swim as hirricane Hugo was approaching. The waves suddenly tripled in size and I couldn't get back to shore. I waved for help from the lifeguard, but he was too busy talking to the bikini next to him. So, do I swim further out beyond the breakers, or stay put and fight to get back. I was terrified and thankfully got pulled out by a nice man who noticed my distress. But I see a correlation here; the descison to go all in, which could cost lives, but also save lives. Or stay the course and risk getting killed, or helped out.

[Initech]

82. And the really sad thing is if the west coast is lost to a nuclear attack...

Trump and the Trumplodytes will be laughing about it, because we didn't vote for that jackass.

[True Dough]

3. What's your prediction on the number of war dead?

When everything is said and done? Will the body count be in the hundreds of thousands or the millions?

I'm not arguing that Kim Jong Un having nukes is a terrible situation, but I'd like to know what you believe the toll on human life will be as a result of the inevitable war?

[Rustyeye77]

9. There were many who said the same thing...

before WWII.

Yep, war sucks...but so do nukes.

[True Dough]

13. You didn't answer my question...

Do you have an estimate in your own mind?

[Rustyeye77]

17. An awful lot.

Maybe youre right... we should live with Kim having nukes.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. Are one million South Korean deaths acceptable ?

[Mariana]

65. Who cares, it's not like they're Americans.

I'm being sarcastic, of course, but it seems some people really do think that way.

Of course, there are American troops in South Korea, so that complicates things a bit.

[Not Ruth]

77. Are any North Korean deaths acceptable?

South Korean privilege?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

78. Since I oppose war on the Korean Peninsula your query should be directed toward the seminal poster.

Am I right?

[Not Ruth]

79. No

[DemocratSinceBirth]

80. What part of my statement didn't you understand or take exception to ?

[Voltaire2]

87. You appeared to only be concerned with south korean deaths

The death toll in total would be far higher than the million or so dead in South Korea and might extend outside the Korean peninsula.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

88. "'Whoever saves one life, it is written as if he has saved all humanity."

That's why I started several threads decrying pre-emptive war.

[True Dough]

24. I didn't say that

Although some astute pundits, including Tom Friedman, have said as much. I'd suggest you read this in full. Excerpt below:

Is North Korea different from the Soviet Union? Of course. Is anyone comfortable with the fact that North Korea is building nuclear-tipped missiles that can hit the United States? Of course not. But the point is: We’ve lived with such threats before, and there is simply no reason to believe that the deterrent capabilities we’ve had in place to prevent North Korea from attacking South Korea and American forces there since the end of the Korean War will not continue to work. North Korea’s ruling Kim family is homicidal, but it has not survived for three generations by being suicidal. And firing a nuclear missile at us would be suicide.

What we should be doing is actually laughing at their missile tests — telling them we think they’re pathetic — while maintaining our deterrence, steadily improving and deploying our antiballistic missile capabilities to defend the United States homeland, as well as American forces in the region and our Japanese and South Korean allies. We should also bombard North Korea’s people with information on how poor they are compared with the rest of the world — while generating ever tighter economic sanctions and embargoes so the North Korean regime sees that its choice is very simple: It can have either nuclear weapons or endless poverty that will eventually sap its strength from within.

I repeat, time is on our side. As Bader notes, North Korea is “a foe with one strength and many profound and eventually fatal weaknesses.” Let’s treat it that way: Deter its strength and exacerbate its weaknesses by being smart, not hysterical.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/10/opinion/trump-north-korea-strategy.html?mcubz=1

[stevenleser]

48. Have we lived with such threats before? I do not agree. There are at least two big differences

To wit:

- While we tended to think of the Soviet Union as a dictatorship with as Supreme Leader type, when it deemed it necessary, the leader was replaced. They did not have absolute power in the Soviet Union. The Kim family in North Korea, on the other hand, is an absolute dictatorship. What this means with regard to use of nuclear weapons is, if the General Secretary of the USSR gave a launch order or seemed to be heading in that direction, there was at least a possibility that the politburo could intervene to remove them. Who in North Korea could stand up to Kim? In the US, while there is no refusing the launch order, the cabinet could remove a President giving a launch order with the 25th amendment. If a President was on the road to going insane or acting lawlessly the congress could also impeach them. Again, there is no stopping Kim.

- The US and Soviet Union routinely reassured each other that there was firm command and control of each country's nuclear forces. There would be no rogue General/Admiral/Colonel etc. giving a launch order or selling nuclear weapons or material to a third party. There are zero such assurances with North Korea.

These two differences add a very dangerous dimension to attempting to live with a nuclear North Korea.

[True Dough]

51. North Korea has threatened Japan

and has been capable of striking Japan for years. Any nukes land there yet?

Many analysts don't believe Kim Jong Un has a death wish, and the launch of a nuke against any other country would ensure his demise.

The best bet is to hope for some sort of nano-drone technology to be deployed in the future that takes out Lil Kim, unless you have any better ideas.

[stevenleser]

53. That doesnt address what I wrote. nt

[True Dough]

54. Okay. Whatever.

[Hoyt]

46. Yep, only America can have nukes. After all, we are only country vile enough to have used them.

[pangaia]

59. The Chinese do NOT want North Korea to have nukes....

They REALLY really do not.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. There were sixty million civilian and military deaths in WW ll

[Rustyeye77]

19. And so, we should have stayed out of WWII ?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. Not after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor .

Has North Korea attacked the United States ?

[Rustyeye77]

28. OK, lets wait till the first nuke hits the West coast.

then you would get involved.

ok, you made your point.

I'm not your enemy...we just disagree.

[Dan]

44. Do you plan to volunteer

As a combat arms soldier?

[stevenleser]

49. What if they did. Would that make it OK? nt

[Dan]

50. No, but as you get older

You realize that the rush to war - is never the answer...

[bluestarone]

56. this

1000%

[Hoyt]

47. Or they can wait for us to invade them like we invaded Iraq because they had

no weapons or viable military. Nukes are a protection against countries vile enough to use them.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

4. Every expert who looks at war with North Korea says it will be horrific

Every expert who looks at war with North Korea says it will be horrific and will be our largest effort since WW ll. Kim isn't Noriega or Saddam or Eric Gairy.

[greatauntoftriplets]

6. I'm uncomfortable with herr drumpf having nukes.

[Pope George Ringo II]

8. There are no good answers on North Korea

There are only varying degrees of bad. Sadly, I have confidence that our own Dear Leader will find some of the worst.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. Here...

In the end, North Korea would lose a war, the generals and military analysts say. The regime of Kim Jong Un would probably collapse.
But the Second Korean War could be deadly—producing tens of thousands of deaths just in Seoul, and possibly a million casualties in the South alone. It would almost certainly be devastating physically in both the North and South, military experts say.
...

U.S. air strikes against some North Korean targets might require flying not far from the border with China, Marks warned. And China would be just as concerned as the United States would be if another country came that close to U.S. borders. “North Korea is a subset of our relations with China,” Marks told me. “What impact would a war have? Devastation of Seoul, the unravelling of world order, and China on the other side with ‘enemy’ status. And if the United States and China are belligerents, everything is up for grabs.”

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/what-would-war-with-north-korea-look-like

Millions dead... Possible war with China... What could go wrong ?

[Rustyeye77]

14. OK..so we let lil Kim have nukes.

I guess nothing to worry about.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. Russia and China have nukes. Should we take them on next ?

[Rustyeye77]

22. OK... obviously you believe we should

live with NK nukes.

ok..got it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

26. No.

No. We should attack a sovereign nation who hasn't attacked us and risk millions of casualties in the Korean Peninsula and Japan as well as war with China.


That'll teach Kim for threatening us.

[Eko]

31. Yes,

Everyone here that thinks attacking NK with our military is a bad option loves the idea of NK with Nukes, shoot if we could give him some of ours we would.
Just because you only think there are two answers does not make it so.
Thanks!
Eko.

[pangaia]

62. jeeze give it up, sir..

[Mariana]

68. What a fine example of the classic strawman argument

and the false dichotomy fallacy, all rolled into one. Congratulations.

You still haven't answered the question put to you upthread: How many deaths do you think are acceptable as a result of an attempt to take out NK's nukes? You're so concerned about Seattle, but you seem to think that Seoul is expendable.

[Warpy]

12. It will be unless the Kim family is completely deposed

Once the people are no longer harangued into worshiping a god-king, maybe saner heads in the military will pursue a peaceful reunification. After all, SK has the economic power, somewhat diminished by China. NK has the military hardware and given the peninsula's history over the last several hundred years, that would seem to be a pretty fair exchange in a unification scheme.

Former insiders who have managed to defect say the Kims will eventually be deposed but that there will be no warning it is about to occur.

[Doreen]

18. I know I am going to get "yelled" at for this.

I think there is more going on between our government and NK. I know we have had issues for a long time with them but I have this bad feeling that our administration is secretly working with NK and what they are doing is a global scare tactic.

Kim Jong-un is trumps wet dream of a dictator along with Putin so would it "really" surprise anyone if it turned out they were working together?

Yes, I also believe that Russia is involved with it.

I find it odd that trump praises Kim Jong-un during his campaigns and says nothing until he is encouraged to after NK's first missile launch after he became president and he is buddy buddy with Putin and then he starts doing things that supposedly makes Putin mad but for some reason that all just does not feel right.

I think there is something more deadly going on.

[PCIntern]

27. I agree:

There's much more to this than we can conceive right now.

[Doreen]

35. Thank You

I am glad I am not the only one who thinks this.

[SammyWinstonJack]

55. It's tRump, meaning nothing is as it seems.

[Nevernose]

25. How many North Korean troops are stationed on our border?

Who exactly is doing all this extortion? Who is already pointing nuclear weapons at the other country? Who ALSO makes daily threats? North Korea doesn't deny the US's right to fundamentally exist, they've never atracked the United States, they've never demanded we give them anything.

The United States has zero right involving ourselves in the Korean Peninsula "discussion" in any way. Besides the almost ludicrous levels of hypocrisy, there is nothing productive or safe that we can add.

[Fatemah2774]

30. Some thoughts...no flame

Korea has been fighting since before WW Two.

China wants a North Korea because if a unified South Korean country is on their border they will need to ensure limited traffic so people don't flee.

The key was containment the idea of not direct negotiation but with others, namely Russia, China, Japan, the two Korea's and the United States.

Blustering has led us to the point Kim wants: direct talks.

Ok now what.

Tell him to lose the nukes. Not going to happen.

Tell him stop. Nope, he's getting the attention he wants.

Threaten war. Look at the Korean conflict from the 1940's and even MacArthur won't propose dropping nuclear bombs especially now.

Regime change. Good luck if you think any border country will allow that. Like, China.

Sanctions work. They take time. They require patience. They require diplomacy and allies who we don't piss off with silly tweets and others who can help us even if we don't see eye to eye on everything.

Ironically, since Kim is not going, maybe we need a better Commander in Chief and Diplomat who can guide us so peace can be obtained without fire and fury, or biblical brimstone hailed down by our weapons or a hot war destruction of a peninsula killing both sides in a senseless conflict that when the clouds dissipate will leave us literally and figuratively in a worse fallout and by the work of our own hand.

Just IMHO.

[MyNameGoesHere]

33. I am always confident the world couldn't get any

stupider. Time and time again I am proven wrong.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. Would we tolerate Chinese jet fighter buzzing the Mexico-U.S border ?

In the end, North Korea would lose a war, the generals and military analysts say. The regime of Kim Jong Un would probably collapse.
But the Second Korean War could be deadly—producing tens of thousands of deaths just in Seoul, and possibly a million casualties in the South alone. It would almost certainly be devastating physically in both the North and South, military experts say.
...

U.S. air strikes against some North Korean targets might require flying not far from the border with China, Marks warned. And China would be just as concerned as the United States would be if another country came that close to U.S. borders. “North Korea is a subset of our relations with China,” Marks told me. “What impact would a war have? Devastation of Seoul, the unravelling of world order, and China on the other side with ‘enemy’ status. And if the United States and China are belligerents, everything is up for grabs.”

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/what-would-war-with-north-korea-look-like

[MyNameGoesHere]

43. Ok my counter argument

Would we allow grasshoppers to have machine guns?

[Lee-Lee]

70. We tolerated Soviet jets right on the edge of our airspace for decades

And the Russians still routinely fly on flight profiles that look just like an attack run right up until they turn away at the edge of our airspace.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

73. Beijing is five hundred miles from Pyongyang

China is not going to stand on the sidelines if we pre-emptively strike North Korea.

"... And if the United States and China are belligerents, everything is up for grabs.”

-Major General Spider Marks

This loose talk of war with North Korea is lunacy on steroids.

[Stuart G]

34. The Peoples Republic of China..does not want war...NK is kinda in China's sphere of influence..

....China will do everything possible to stop this, before it starts, because it is not in China's best interest to have a war, this close to the "homeland"...

[delisen]

36. I would follow Clinton's advice. War is not inevitable.

She pointed this out in her Maddow interview, where she referred to Donald Trump as a clear and present danger

The Republican Party and the Trump White House are making it seem inevitable due to Trump's unfitness for governing our country and their party's role in tearing done our government

[Stuart G]

38. OOPS...got to add this..the capital of China.."Beijing" .is only 400 mi from the Korean border

...China borders North Korea..
...this is not 1949..................it is 2017.....is that right?
...China does not want war that close to its capital city.

.....The capital of China..."Beijing" has a population of 21,000,000...(New York by contrast has a population of 8,500,000)..

Think about this one.....do we, the citizens of the U.S.A want a horrific war,,say 400 miles from Washington DC/Baltimore area?.....Say ..somewhere on the North Carolina and.South Carolina border/??..That is how far Beijing is from the North Korean border.......Therefore, does leadership in the Peoples Republic of China...want a major war..........400 miles from the capital Beijing?...what do you think..........................................

So if you were the leader of the Peoples Republic of China....and you had a population of say 900,000,000 people....and you would like to protect those people...Which would be easier...going to war...with the U.S.A..South Korea..again..........or........................now think of this one..........get rid of the leader of North Korea who wants war.......................you be the judge,.. which would be .easier for Peoples Republic of China?...please think about that when you talk of inevitable war.....

[heaven05]

39. OF COURSE

they have an idiot psychopath as a leader, we have an extremely stupid sociopath as leader....oil and water, don't mix and n.korea DID NOT start this. Boy's trying to show cojones did....I don't feel comfortable with the idiot potus having nukes....

[Stuart G]

41. Yes...but..think of this...North.Korea has an idiot as a leader...so do we...(in USA)

You are the leader of ...China..., do you want to go to war?....

.......with one idiot leader on your side NK, and one idiot leader on the other side? USA.....

Let us say it might be easier to get rid of the idiot leader that lives very close to China.(NK) .and replace him with a more peaceful and intelligent fellow who would like
........................................................................ to avoid war.......

Is it in China's interest to go to war?...with idiot leaders all around?????????Is this too hard to figure out???

so.........get rid of the close idiot leader, avoid war with the other idiot and enjoy peace...Have some ...........................fried rice ok?...or avoid war.then......................................................
..take the family and take a plane to San Francisco and enjoy Chinatown...

ain't that difficult to figure out ...........is it?...War is not inevitable ....Not if China does not want war...nope..
.................Hillary is right.......trump is wrong........

[heaven05]

85. HRC is right

idiot-potus has always been and always will be wrong...and you still ignored the fact of WHO started this latest round with the idiot-supreme leader...our idiot. China will probably, in it's own best interest TCB, but this clown we have as potus WILL find someone else to try to prove how 'large' a man he is when he will always be a very small, small man, whose historical legacy will be footnotes about how a real POTUS, Barack Hussein Obama and his First Family, out shined, in every way, this trashy potus and first family that all decent americans have to contend with now.

[NurseJackie]

42. War with NK equals Impeachment Protection Shield

[Stuart G]

45. NO....................it doesn't...you see, if it is totally stupid...the answer could be....no war.

NO.....no war....
...............why fight a war 6800 miles away?? ......... Washington DC to North Korea....6800 miles ...

google it yourself...fighting a war 6800 miles away..would be totally stupid...Besides..the Peoples Republic of China is one of our biggest sellers to the U.S.A. That is we buy stuff from them...We might be able to influence them to deal with North Korea..Is it worth killing millions of people in the U.S.A, North and South Korea, and possibly China...when a limited number of whatever the Chinese call their "secret service..like 007..could take care of the leader of North Korea..who is obviously an idiot...Do you think that two of the most powerful nations to ever exist on this earth...could work out a deal to stop a war with North Korea?...

[rockfordfile]

52. Not with traitor Trump

[Rustyeye77]

57. Obviously I'm in the minority here..and that's ok.

Let him have his nukes... let him threaten us daily.

Seattle was never my favorite city anyway.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

67. Please see Post #31

Thank you in advance.

[walkingman]

61. Nothing is worth the lives of hundreds of thousands of civilians

if not more. There is always another way. It is time to stop the madness of constant war. Like all wars before this will become a battle of the major powers of the world who are who hard-headed to accept peace over victory. I is time for humanity to stand up to these so-called leaders around the planet who constantly beat the drums of war. They do not suffer. It is the working people of the world who fight and lose in these wars and for what.

Enough of this madness!

[Not Ruth]

76. Sanctions are designed to starve North Korea

No one seems to care about the North Korean civilians. What makes the South Korean civilians ore deserving?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

83. Why would we impose sanctions on South Korea ?

[bluestarone]

63. attacking NK

would be as dumb as the Iraq war no doubt about it We could wipe out NK anytime they attacked us WHATS THE HURRY? And don't say they are getting Nukes THEY ALREADY HAVE THEMa

[MFM008]

64. Worried about North Korea???

Worry about Donald J. Maggot having nukes.

[Lee-Lee]

71. I see two ways the NK regime ends without war with us and the ROK

#1 is an internal coup that will end up destroying the country from within. The Kim family are masters of manipulating their military leaders to the point that they never know what is a test from the Kim regime, and nobody trusts anyone else, making that very unlikely to happen.

#2, and the more possible one, is that China engineers a coup similar to how the Soviets engineered their takeover of Afghanistan and installed their people at the onset of the Soviet-Afghan war. An already friendly "ally" has its advisors helping the country all take steps to facilitate a decapitation of the leadership and the installation of a new leader. In the case in Afghanistan the Soviets made sure that their advisors all too steps to keep the Afghan military out of the fight. For one example adivisors to the armored divisions near Kabul told the Afghans to take all their tank batteries out and load them on a truck because they were getting all brand new ones in the morning, so that night none of the tanks could be brought to fight the coup. Another told his units leaders that there was going to be a drill to test te palace guards so that when they heart gunfire and radio reports they thought it was an exercise.

[Orrex]

72. In AD 2101 War Was Beginning

[DemocratSinceBirth]

74. Questions for the original poster

How many casualties in a pre-emptive attack on North Korea is acceptable ?

Do you believe China will remain neutral if we attack their neighbor and ally ?

What do you believe will be the effect on world markets if Seoul is flattened ?

What will our allies and adversaries do if we start a war that results in millions of casualties ?

Thank you in advance.

[L. Coyote]

75. We are at war with North Korea. Peace is what is inevitable, after the war.

[inwiththenew]

84. There are really no good solutions anymore...only less sh**ty ones

The stick and carrot approach that we've tried for the last 20+ years only works if they take the carrot and/or fear the stick.

A war would be a nightmare. A nuke detonated in the Port of Los Angeles or launched at Tokyo or the west coast would also be a nightmare. It's a giant shit sandwich with very little realistic chance for a positive resolution.

I think what is going to happen is that people in Japan and on the west coast are going to have to live under the specter that a nuclear weapon could be launched at them at any time because at this point I don't think we can stop him short of a war and I don't think there is the stomach for that.

[Voltaire2]

86. So you think we should kill millions of people because we don't like Kim Jung Un's threats?

By the way if you think he is just an idiot, or insane, you might want to read the essay on North Korea and Un in the last week's issue of The New Yorker, here: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/09/18/the-risk-of-nuclear-war-with-north-korea.

As usual it's more complicated than the official media narrative.

My own opinion is that we should ignore the threats and bluster and work on opening up normal channels of communication, so at least we don't end up in a nuclear war over a complete misunderstanding. Then we should find some way to de-escalate and normalize economic and diplomatic relations, which at this point means we will have to accept a nuclear north korea. Over time, the regime will either reform or collapse, as did the soviet union and china.

[Rustyeye77]

90. No... you think he should kill millions of americans ??

[Voltaire2]

91. I don't think any nation should start a nuclear war.

We should not do that, nor should anyone else.

[Calista241]

89. The only way Kim can really escalate from where NK is now, is to test

launch missiles towards Guam or Hawaii. As Mattis said, it's "Game On" if that happens.