Watched the first installment of Ken Burns' The Vietnam War

[question everything]

and am still having a hard time wrapping any logic explanation around it.

Yes, Ho Chi Minn was trying to get assistance, but while he was out of the country, a Communist zealot took over. There were fractions that fought and killed each other a lot more than the French and we did.

I can now understand the reluctance to intervene in Syria for the last several years. There, too, were many fractions that fought each other.

Then, when Eisenhower had enough of Diem, the leader of South Vietnam, and was ready to order American troops (advisors) to leave, Diem cleansed the country and declared himself emperor of South Vietnam and Eisenhower changed his mind.

Why?

Spouse and I concluded then, that it was the "Domino effect" to prevent the spread of Communism to the whole Indochina region.

And I could not help but thinking: so what? I think that the Communism in these countries would be different from the one in the Soviet Union and China. I don't think that the Soviet Union would have a strong hold the way it was in Eastern Europe.

And, as it was mentioned with Korea, both China and the Soviet Union got tired of their losses there and did not continue to pursue one Korea.

I was watching it and could not help thinking: what a waste, of French, American, but mostly of Vietnamese lives. The brutality massacre and terror that the different factions of Vietnam inflicted on each other are hard to watch and to perceive.

My spouse's conclusion - it was all de Gaulle's fault He insisted of the French returning to Vietnam after the end of WWII.

The only thing I am not sure yet - is the lesson in Afghanistan. I am sure there is.

What a mess. This was the first part, out of ten!!

[GP6971]

1. "still having a hard time wrapping any logic explanation around it".

And I think it's only to get worse as the series continues.

It's just coming on now on the west coast.

[riverbendviewgal]

2. I agree you and your wife.

With all ýou wrote. The MIC pushed Congress to get into the war. My life was greatly affected by it.

[LeftInTX]

3. I grew up with this war and it was the "Domino Effect"

My dad was career military and whenever there was a discussion about pulling out of Vietnam, he always started blabbering about the spread of communism.

We had this issue with Cuba. The issue with Cuba is why the study of Spanish language in school skyrocketed. I wanted to take French, but my parents made me take Spanish.

[marybourg]

57. Yes, it was. Two-word foreign policy. nt

[Hoyt]

4. Like Iraq, VN wasn't a threat to us - Just a place to kill innocent Asians (Muslims) with our bombs.

[left-of-center2012]

30. Muslims?

“The three main religions in Vietnam are Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism.
Sometimes, they are grouped together as one religion called the three teachings or tam giáo.
According to many studies, 70-90 percent of Vietnamese people are tam giáo.

6-8 percent are Christians (mostly Roman Catholic) and 1-2 percent practice indigenous, animist religions.

About 1 percent are not religious, but have a strong Buddhist influence on their life.”

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Vietnam

[Hoyt]

33. Jeeez -- Muslims refers to Iraq. We were killing Asians in Vietnam. Muslims refers to Iraq where

we were also just bombing people because they weren't European. Go back and read my original post and think.

[left-of-center2012]

43. Ken Burns show is about Vietnam

Maybe you thought it was about Iraq?

Iraq is actually in the Middle East,
while Vietnam is in Asia.

Two different countries;
two different parts of the globe.

Geography 101



No matter. You are forgiven.

[Hoyt]

44. Nope, quit reading pointing at each word. I stated that VN, like Iraq, were just exercise in killing

people because we could and had a lot of bombs lying around and manufacturers ready to make more for a price.

[left-of-center2012]

45. "quit reading pointing at each word"

What does that even mean?

[retread]

46. You did note the use of parenthesis? Probably not the best way to convey the idea.

But it was clear to me as is "reading pointing".

parenthesis noun [ C usually pl ] us ​ /pəˈren·?ə·səs/ plural parentheses /pəˈren·?əˌsiz/
​

either of a pair of marks ( ), or the information inside them, used in a piece of writing to show that what is inside these marks should be considered as separate from the main part:

[EX500rider]

59. "we were also just bombing people because they weren't European"

So we leveled Dresden and Hamburg and all the other German cities because they were European?

[Hoyt]

60. WWII was the last legitimate war. You gonna tell us how Vietnam and Iraq were legitimate wars?

[EX500rider]

62. Didn't bring up legitimacy...

...just pointing out that to say we bombed N Vietnam because they weren't Europeans 20 years after we flattened N Europe with bombs makes no sense,

[Hoyt]

64. We bombed VN because we could and they were Asians, sorry. Same for Iraq, but they were Muslims.

[EX500rider]

65. 1st, we could bomb any country if it's because "we could"...

....2nd, we were propping up and aiding S Vietnam, why, because they were Asian too? lol
Race had zero to do with it, it was the Cold War being fought through proxies that we helped.

[Hoyt]

67. Do you seriously think people in N or S Vietnam wanted us there napalming women and children?

I believe the internment of Japanese in WWII, the nuking of Japanese, etc., indicate an innate hatred of -- or, at least a, disregard for -- Asians in this country (not by all, of course, but certainly our government and plenty of vets). Apparently you don't. I disagree.

[EX500rider]

69. Did the S Vietnamese want us there helping keep out N Vietnam?

Yes?
Unless you think they enjoyed a good communists invasion with the following aftermath:

Following the end of the war, according to official and non-official estimates, between 200,000 and 300,000 South Vietnamese were sent to reeducation camps, where many endured torture, starvation, and disease while being forced to perform hard labor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Saigon#Aftermath

[dalton99a]

36. It seems Wiki's Buddhist number is too high

Wiki says 85.5% are Buddhist.

From U.S. State Dept:
https://www.state.gov/documents/organization/222393.pdf

More than half of the population is Buddhist. Roman Catholics constitute 7 percent of the population. Protestants range from 1 to 2 percent of the population...

CIA:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/vm.html

Religions:
Buddhist 7.9%, Catholic 6.6%, Hoa Hao 1.7%, Cao Dai 0.9%, Protestant 0.9%, Muslim 0.1%, none 81.8% (2009 est.)

Pew Research:
http://www.pewforum.org/2012/07/19/asian-americans-a-mosaic-of-faiths-religious-affiliation/

Among Vietnamese Americans, 43% are Buddhist, 36% are Christian, 20% are unaffiliated, and less than 1% belong to other religions.. Three-in-ten Vietnamese Americans (30%) are Catholic.

[SHRED]

5. I've got it recorded

I registered but was too young and it ended.

[BigmanPigman]

6. I have been interested in Vietnam ever since I saw Apocalypse Now

and decided to write my senior high research paper about it. I became a teacher and ended up teaching in Asian areas of my San Diego school district and became friends with many students' families and was invited to so many personal and social occasions over the past 20 years. I was given my first balut (an 18 day old fertilized duck or chicken egg) by a parent for a lunch treat. YUM! I have only wonderful thoughts and memories from my time spent with them. Many of the parents still do not speak English and my students would translate during parent teacher conferences. It was strange that I often knew more about the Vietnam War then they did.

I am thoroughly enjoying The new PBS series and am glad to hear Peter Coyote narrating it. He was a Digger in San Francisco during the 60s so I am pleased to hear his voice narrating the series.

[a kennedy]

12. Love Peter Coyote narrating it as well........

and thank you for becoming a teacher, you and your fellow compatriots are not honored as you should be, and I'm sorry for that, but thank you, thank you, thank you. I sincerely appreciate your service to our country.

[BigmanPigman]

70. That is very thoughtful and kind. Much appreciated!

[question everything]

41. While Apocalypse Now has been the definite movie about the early days of the war

before the later ones like Full Metal Jacket, I think that "Go Tell the Spartan" has really been strong.

It got good review when first came out in 1978 and covers the early 60s before our main involvement. But no one talks about it..

Yes, Peter Coyote is the PBS narrator for everything and he is really good.

[Warren DeMontague]

7. yes, we never should have "given" the French back Vietnam. That was the big mistake.

We had just saved them from Hitler. We should have told them to go le fuck themselves.

[JI7]

8. It was ALL about the Cold War. same with Iran, Afghanistan, Somalia , Latin America ETC

but yes, looking back it was not worth it to fight in some of the places.

the communist system itself was never going to work for long . what works is a regulated capitalist society with a strong safety net where those with more wealth are taxed more.

just look at China .

[bluepen]

9. Did they mention SEATO? JFK and LBJ saw it as crucial

but it rarely gets the attention it deserves in the historical analysis.

[SMC22307]

19. I don't remember that being mentioned, but...

this first episode ran from the mid-19th century (French colonialism) until 1961. Perhaps the next episode...

[question everything]

42. When JFK was considering running for Congress, in 1947

he visited Vietnam, talked to a famous journalist, I think, and concluded that the Vietnamese deserved their own independence. But by the time he was elected president, in his inauguration address, he did refer to defending allies and he meant South Vietnam.

LBJ was a great believer of the Domino Effect.

[philly_bob]

10. I have a buddy who says we were there for oil.

The hope of discovering undersea oil deposits like they found in the North Sea. There weren't any, but apparently by the time we found out, we were committed.

[AnotherDreamWeaver]

16. I have heard that too.

[muntrv]

55. I thought it was rubber for Michelin.

[Beringia]

11. Fear of communism

But we could have learned from the French failure there.

[jmowreader]

13. If he doesn't talk about rubber his history will be incomplete

[SMC22307]

20. There's a clip of Nixon at a map mentioning rubber and tin. (n/t)

[jmowreader]

21. That's good

The real reason the French entered Vietnam in the first place is the Michelin Company owned a huge rubber plantation a few miles north of Saigon that they didn't want nationalized, and we entered Vietnam for the same reasons.

[Historic NY]

14. Mostly the old double cross by the US, things could have been very different.

But C'est la vie.

In the mid-1940s, the Viet Minh, under Ho Chi Minh, looked to the West for help in its independence movement and got it.

Ho Chi Minh and the OSS

As U.S. Army Major Allison Thomas sat down to dinner with Ho Chi Minh and General Vo Nguyen Giap on September 15, 1945, he had one vexing question on his mind. Ho had secured power a few weeks earlier, and Thomas was preparing to leave Hanoi the next day and return stateside, his mission complete. He and a small team of Americans had been in French Indochina with Ho and Giap for two months, as part of an Office of Strategic Services (OSS) mission to train Viet Minh guerrillas and gather intelligence to use against the Japanese in the waning days of World War II. But now, after Ho’s declaration of independence and Japan’s surrender the previous month, the war in the Pacific was over. So was the OSS mission in Indochina. At this last dinner with his gracious hosts, Thomas decided to get right to the heart of it. So many of the reports he had filed with the OSS touched on Ho’s ambiguous allegiances and intents, and Thomas had had enough. He asked Ho point-blank: Was he a Communist? Ho replied: “Yes. But we can still be friends, can’t we?”

It was a startling admission. In the mid-1940s, the Viet Minh leadership, under Ho Chi Minh, looked to the West for help in its independence movement and got it. As World War II ended, the United States and its allies, most of them former colonial powers, now confronted a new problem. Independence movements were emerging all over the East. But former colonial powers had lost their military muscle, and the Americans simply wanted to “bring the boys home.” During the war, the United States had sought any and all allies to combat the fascist powers, only to find, years later, it may have inadvertently given birth to new world leaders either through misconceptions or missed opportunities. Vietnam’s independence leader, Ho Chi Minh, had been only a relatively minor figure just a few years earlier. In 1945, Ho became the leader of a movement that would result in revolutionary tumult for decades to come.

http://www.historynet.com/ho-chi-minh-and-the-oss.htm

[muntrv]

54. After WWI, Ho Chi Minh tried to communicate with Woodrow Wilson about independence from France

to no avail.

[Historic NY]

71. They refused to meet with him....

sad thing is today we have friendly relations with them, and other Communist countries. So much for the Wilson's fourteen points. and the League of Nations, ideology.

14 points.
“general association of nations…formed under specific covenants for the purpose of affording mutual guarantees of political independence and territorial integrity to great and small states alike.”

http://online.wsj.com/ww1/ho-chi-minh

[SunSeeker]

15. We should have cleared out like Dewey said in 1945.

Sadly, OSS Commander Peter Dewey was killed by mistake by the very people he thought deserved independence. A group of Vietnamese at a checkpoint thought he was one of their French oppressors and shot him dead before he could get back to the US to convince his superiors that the US should clear out of southest Asia.

Alas, Ho Chi Minh's sincere letter of condolence and letters explaining he believed in the same things America believed never reached Truman. The rest is history. Horrid, tragic history.

[mopinko]

31. that really jumped out at me.

how the fuck did that happen?

[dalton99a]

34. They thought he was French:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._Peter_Dewey

Dewey arrived on September 4, 1945, in Saigon to head a seven-man OSS team "to represent American interests" and collect intelligence.[15] Working with the Viet Minh, he arranged the repatriation of 4,549 Allied POWs, including 240 Americans, from two Japanese camps near Saigon,[16] code named Project Embankment. Because the British occupation forces who had arrived to accept the Japanese surrender were short of troops, they armed French POWs on September 22 to protect the city from a potential Viet Minh attack. In taking control of the city, the French soldiers were quick to beat or shoot Vietnamese who resisted the reestablishment of French authority.

Dewey complained about the abuse to the British commander, General Douglas Gracey, who took exception to Dewey's objections and declared Dewey persona non grata. Adhering to strict tradition, Gracey prohibited anyone but general officers from flying flags from their vehicles. Dewey had wanted to fly an American flag for easy identification among the Viet Minh, who Dewey claimed were only concerned about attacking the French. The jeep he rode in prior to his death had a flag wrapped around a pole that was unidentifiable.[17] Because the airplane scheduled to fly Dewey out did not arrive on time at Tan Son Nhat International Airport, he returned for a lunch meeting with war correspondents Bill Downs and Jim McGlincy at the villa that OSS had requisitioned in Saigon.[18] As he neared the villa, he was shot in the head in an ambush by Viet Minh troops. Dewey's jeep overturned, and Dewey's subordinate, Captain Herbert Bluechel, escaped without serious injury, pursued by Viet Minh soldiers.[19]

The Viet Minh afterward claimed that their troops mistook him for a Frenchman after he had spoken to them in French. Bluechel later recalled that Dewey had shaken his fist and yelled at three Vietnamese soldiers in French while driving back to headquarters.[20] According to Vietnamese historian Trần Văn Giàu, Dewey's body was dumped in a nearby river and was never recovered.[12] Reportedly, Ho Chi Minh sent a letter of condolence about Dewey’s death to U.S. President Harry S. Truman while also ordering a search for the colonel's body.[12]

A. Peter Dewey was noted for his prediction over the future of the First Indochina War and the Vietnam War: "Cochinchina is burning, the French and the British are being destroyed there and we are forced to get out of Southeast Asia" due to recent conflict between France and Vietnam.

[SunSeeker]

35. Amazing how one fucking bullet can change the course of history. nt

[2naSalit]

58. It was...

the CIA who sequestered a lot of info that would have altered how we dealt with the whole mess. So the CIA have been a problem faction in this country and serves the interests of high $ capitalists who see the rest of us a tools of the trade rather than fellow citizens.

[bluestateboomer]

17. A continual series of wrong turns.

It seemed like every time, more often than not, the wrong decision was made. So many times the conflict could have been, if not eliminated, at least reduced. It doesn't seem that we are a very enlightened species.

[YOHABLO]

18. I've been traveling and didn't know when this DOCU was going to be on.

Anyone know if they'll replay the first episode or where I can watch it?

[Warren DeMontague]

22. You can stream it.

http://www.pbs.org/show/vietnam-war/

[dalton99a]

73. Link:

http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/the-vietnam-war/home/

[pokerfan]

23. This critique is worth reading

America’s amnesia by Thomas A. Bass
https://mekongreview.com/americas-amnesia/

By Episode Two, “Riding the Tiger” (1961-1963), we are heading deep into Burns territory. The war has been framed as a civil war, with the United States defending a freely elected democratic government in the south against Communists invading from the north. American boys are fighting a godless enemy that Burns shows as a red tide creeping across maps of Southeast Asia and the rest of the world.

The historical footage in Episode One, “Déjà Vu” (1858-1961), which disputes this view of the war, is either ignored or misunderstood. Southern Vietnam was never an independent country. From 1862 to 1949, it was the French colony of Cochinchina, one of the five territorial divisions in French Indochina (the others being Tonkin, Annam, Cambodia and Laos). Defeated French forces regrouped in southern Vietnam after 1954, which is when US Air Force colonel and CIA agent Edward Lansdale began working to elevate this former colony to nationhood. The US installed Ngo Dinh Diem as south Vietnam’s autocratic ruler, aided him in wiping out his enemies and engineered an election that Diem stole, with 98.2 per cent of the popular vote.

Much more at the link.

[CanSocDem]

28. Good essay!

As I suspected, Burns et al have nothing new to offer.

A more important DOC. being shown on the History channel is 'Americas War On Drugs'. It shows interesting parallels to the Burns History of SE Asia. In particular is the presence of the CIA and Lansdale and their attempts to control poppy production.


.

[leftstreet]

78. +1

Thanks for posting this

[CherokeeFiddle]

24. It must have been intense

I didn't see it but while looking at twitter last night, there were a lot of tweets which contained the suicide prevention hotline.

[oasis]

25. So far, it looks to be a series well worth taking the time to watch.

[madokie]

26. I've said it before

and I'll say it again. Within a few days, of landing in country Vietnam, week - ten days at most. I realized that what we were doing there was as WRONG as WRONG can ever be

I still carry that burden on my shoulders, in my mind, and will for the rest of my days.

[SunSeeker]

38. Glad you made it back, madokie.

[madokie]

53. Thank you

Peace

[mahina]

80. Seconded.

[mahina]

79. My Dad too,

long story. He tried to make one good thing happen. Only later did we learn of the dual reality constructed for reports back to our government. Made the same mistakes in Iraq and Afghanistan, evidently. Imagine where we could be today.

Peace to you Madokie. Aloha.

[Tarc]

27. Ho Chi Minh was a nationalist first and Communist second, as they put it

I have always completely sympathized with the man who wants his home free of colonial rule. Hitching the US wagon to Diem was one of the worst mistakes of the entire affair.

I liked it quite a but will not be able to keep up with a 90 min per night pace, so hopefully there are streaming options.

[SunSeeker]

39. Yep. Seems to me he only turned to the communists after everyone else told him to fuck off.

He went to NY, London, Paris ... and no one gave a shit about him wanting independence for his little country. He spoke Jefferson's words to us, only to be ignored. But Russia saw an opportunity. It dangled the military support he desperately needed, along with mouthing anti-colonialism, even though Russia was anything but.

[xor]

47. It's my understanding that this is something that many people here understood too

but they didn't seem to really care. I was going through the book "The Pentagon's Brain: An Uncensored History of DARPA, America's Top-Secret Military Research Agency" and it covers a bit about Vietnam. There were plenty of studies from within done to figure out what was driving the Vietnamese, and they pretty much came to conclusion that most of the Vietcong were not even communists. Despite this there was a push by certain groups to ignore these findings, and then to send out "yes men" who come to the "right" conclusions. The book itself doesn't go into nearly enough detail on it, but the unclassified reports can be found with a bit of searching.

[The Blue Flower]

29. I was struck by the CIA diverting Ho Chi Minh's letters to Wilson, Trum,an and Ike

He reached out many times to the US, asking for help in establishing a democratic form of governance. He even quoted Jefferson. The MIC was truly at fault for creating this tragic travesty.

[stopbush]

32. Tried to watch, but I am so tired of the cliched editing Burns employs

that I can't watch.

I get it, it's his schtick - take a bunch of B&W still photos, zoom in and out, pan across them, show a detail, all while Mr Serious Voice narrates. I can see using such a technique out of necessity when you're dealing with the Civil War or the early history of Baseball, when no video tape existed.

But the Vietnam War? There's probably as much video available for that as there is for WWII. There's really no reason to create a sense of motion using the pan-and-scan schtick, except that it's a schtick that screams "directed by Ken Burns."

No thanks. Plenty of other programs of equal depth on the topic of Nam to view.

[question everything]

49. Perhaps. But I thought that he provided important historical background

that I was not fully aware.

And he interviewed Vietnamese who gave their own prospective.

This first installment covered more than half a century. The next ones each covers only a few months so will have to wait and see.

[zipplewrath]

63. It will change

I suspect that may change. There will be more applicable video as he goes forward in time. The one thing to know about Burns is that he won't use inaccurate photos in those schticks. He won't use just ANY photo of a soldier in uniform. If he's talking about a particular place and time, he'll insist that the photo is relevant to that place and time. So early in the history there isn't nearly the footage available as in a later time.

[Paladin]

40. I thought it was first-rate. Looking forward to the entire series.

What the first show confirmed was that the conflict between North and South Vietnam was nothing more than a civil war, something in which the U.S. should never have been involved. Just like we thought, and said, and hollered, and marched about, fifty years ago.

[AngryAmish]

48. Spoiler Alert:. The Vietnamese won.

[question everything]

50. There was a member of Congress, do not remember who, suggesting that we should have just

declared that we won and to get out of there.

Perhaps we need to do something like that in Afghanistan now.

[AngryAmish]

51. That should have been done 15 years ago.

[metalbot]

68. Not really

The Vietnamese lost more than everybody. Certainly more than the French or the Americans.

If you're going to declare a winner, it's probably capitalism, which won in the end even after all the killing.

[mahina]

52. Kept thinking of Pinboy39er, and my Dad.

It was excellent. I watched it twice and plan to catch all of it.

The CIA failing to give Truman the letters that Ho Chi Min wrote to him was sickening. Had they done so, it may never have gone down.

[The_Casual_Observer]

56. The USA had an opportunity to work with Ho right after

World war 2. Of course the chose to assist the French cononialists as they did with The Shah and Pinochet and Marcos and .... I'm long since past the idea that this country is led by wise people.

[LanternWaste]

61. The Vietnamese were pressing for freedoms as early as the Versailles Treaty.

The Vietnamese were pressing for freedom of the press, to association, to worship freely, unions and public education as early as the Versailles Treaty.

We as a nation seem short-sighted about the actual length of the occupation of Vietnam by other nations, and act surprised they did what many other nations (including the US) did, and used the precise same tools to achieve that same goal.

[loyalsister]

66. The intricacies and complexity is astounding

I had no idea how long our investment had really been.

[dalton99a]

72. Burns did an excellent job elucidating the genesis of the debacle

which I suspect most Americans are not familiar with

[Bradshaw3]

74. I lived through that time and it is excellent so far

I've been very impressed by the first two episodes. Episode 1 included a lot of history that most Americans - including those who were alive back then - didn't know. I was especially pleased that Episode 2 included author Neil Sheehan and John Paul Vann - the focus of Sheehan's book "A Bright Shining Lie." For those who haven't read it, that book in my mind remains the best book about Vietnam to this day. I also thought that taking a full episode to cover Kennedy's two-and-a-half years was a smart choice as well.

And I hope people get more out of it than blaming one person like DeGaulle. Many individuals were responsible - some like Westmoreland more than others - but the French were handed Vietnam twice, once at the Treaty of Versailles and again after WWII. It was all part of imperialism and exploiting underdeveloped countries on the part of developed nations that the U.S. and others decried but when push came to shove they acquiesced. Vietnam was sold out twice by the Western powers. Look at the greater factors that led to this disaster and what we learned about ourselves as a people and country.

[question everything]

75. I remember Sheehan's book. I think that he had to fight the CIA to publish

De Gaulle was a fault in the 40s and 50s for insisting on reclaiming Vietnam and demanding our assistance.

[Warpy]

76. At the time, fairly or unfairly, a lot of Diem's nuttiness was being blamed on his first lady

Diem was a lifelong bachelor. Madame Nhu was the wife of an aide and she's pretty much the one who picked the biggest fight with the Buddhist establishment, something that eventually led in great part to the overthrow of the government in 1963.

It's the fault of a lot of people. DeGaulle and his need for Empire of some sort was part of it. Eisenhower likely sent advisers in to get the rabidly anticommunist Nixon out of his hair. The anticommunist nutbars and military both wanted a proxy war, the anticommunists to give an oblique threat to the mean old commies in Russia and their satellites and the military to test men and new hardware. None of it had a single thing to do with aiding the Vietnamese people or halting the spread of Communism in the region. It rather aided the latter instead of stopping it.

My memory about that horrible war is hazy and more restricted to tear gas, police batons, and riots than the newscasts. I'm not watching the series, the first time around was bad enough.

However, anyone who wasn't there or in the streets here needs to see it. Burns usually does a decent job.

[Beringia]

77. From watching the 3rd episode

So many times, could have been stopped, but kept our hands in and increased. The soldiers fighting as hard as they could and up against a determined foe.