I am a Democrat

[Tom Rinaldo]

I am even on the executive committee of our county's Democratic party (trust me, anyone willing to do some good work for the party on a local level can pretty easily "rise" to such "lofty" heights.) So my comments are not those of an "outside agitator" or havens to bid, that of an "Independent".

For me the Democratic Party is a means to an end and not an end in itself. I am puzzled by how so many posters here, IMO, seem to confuse loyalty to the Democratic Party with loyalty to the fight for social change that the Democratic Party is often identified with (usually legitimately, not sometimes not). I work through the Democratic Party for pragmatic, not ideological or sentimental reasons. The Democratic Party (hell all political parties for that matter) is at root a way to advance an agenda. Which isn't the same as being the agenda. And no political party, no matter how noble or well organized it may be, is ever the sole means to advance a social agenda. It isn't even the sole political means to advance a social agenda. At the most fundamental level, only the agenda itself ultimately matters.

Which is why I need to say this clearly at least once on DU. Focusing on the fact that Bernie Sanders is not a Democrat can be a good starting point for a meaningful discussion about the best ways for us all to collectively achieve ends that we believe in, but it sucks as a conclusive statement. If a person or persons working outside the framework of a specific political party can achieve progress in bringing about important and desirable social changes, that's pretty much the ball game when you look at the bigger picture. Probably Martin Luther King Jr was a Democrat, but I actually don't know that for a fact and it's illustrative that I don't. Ultimately it didn't matter.

We can have great tactical discussions about how to best advance politically inside of the American essentially two party system, and we should do so. Ultimately, however, my loyalty is to a set of goals, not fundamentally to the Democratic Party. The fact that "Bernie isn't a Democrat" is meaningless to me without a corresponding analysis about how that fact changes our collective ability to advance a positive social agenda. It is also a fact that Democrats are a minority in America, with roughly a third of voters identifying as such. More voters identify as Independents than as Democrats. We do not win elections on our own.

When I finish writing and posting this I am going back to finishing up a press release for a fund raiser for our local Democrats for the fall election. I choose my Democratic affiliation as the way I believe I can best advance causes that I believe in. But I also acknowledge that in some cases NOT being widely and openly affiliated and associated with a specific political party can open up some doors to change more effectively than can the brandishing of a partisan identity.

Debate whether Bernie does or does not serve our cause if you wish, but simple restating the obvious e.g. "But he's not a Democrat!" offers nothing useful to an important debate that too often ends rather than begins with that comment.

[TDale313]

1. Thank you!

I'm a proud Dem, but this odd "My party, right or wrong" attitude baffles me. I support them because & when they share my ideals.

[Eliot Rosewater]

6. When they share? So there are circumstances where you will vote GOP or independent?

or not at all thus guaranteeing GOP power? I mean if your one vote is valuable, then that is what you are doing in those instances, right?

[jl_theprofessor]

16. Sure there are

If a democrat wasn't willing to take a strong stand against racial justice, I'd find another democrat to vote for or an independent who would.

[Expecting Rain]

2. The open question is whether Person X is bringing about important and desirable social changes, or

if Person X is acting in ways that are undermining progress and advancing undesirable social changes?

And that's a conversation I wonder if we're capable of having under the current rules and broken jury system?

[Ken Burch]

3. Thank you.

And I'd go a little farther:

Yes, Bernie is sometimes undiplomatic as hell in what he has said since the election. Yes, I wish he would change that.

That doesn't mean any line of argument that happens to go along with all or some of his analysis should automatically be dismissed as hostile or divisive, though.

We can't win by continuing to run the party exactly the way it was run in 2016.

And it isn't even about wanting to ditch the social agenda.

Obviously we are a pro-choice party and need to stay that way.

We must always defend choice and oppose bigotry with the same passion we bring to those issues now.

It doesn't conflict with that to bringing a stronger economic justice position into what we say, though.

We can and must stand with BOTH justice struggles, because in the end that's how we get to justice for the majority.

[Pacifist Patriot]

4. This touches on a section of Secretary Clinton's book I found particularly interesting.

I'm listening to it on audio so I can't provide page numbers.

She lays out a very good argument for the difference between advocates and protestors verses politicians and policy makers. She points out that each have a role to play and distinguishes between their areas of effectiveness. Both groups have cross over and both need to listen to the other. I think what she had to say ties in nicely with your thoughtful post.

Thanks!

Oh, and I still have 8 hours and 44 minutes left to listen to so I'm sure I'll be finding a lot more particularly interesting. Great book so far!

[LuvLoogie]

5. Bernie saw no alternative to hitching on to the Democratic collective

when he ran for national office. That decades-long collective provided him access to an infrastructure built with the blood, sweat, and tears of countless Democrats.

He continues to bash that collective that has done the arduous work of building consensus on advancing policy which makes life better for Americans.

Independents aren't a cohesive political entity. They are, for the most part, non-committal, wishy-washy, what's in it for me types.

Bernie has a long history of disparaging Democrats, and, to this day, claims that he is not one of us. The Democratic Socialists have their own political collective. He should join it, or join ours. Until then, his criticisms lack any soul. He lacks commitment and has no interest in buiding consensus, but in usurping, rather, the work of the Democratic Party.

This is clear to me. The Democratic collective does matter. Bernie's relevance only exists because of Democrats who HAVE made the COMMITMENT. Bernie just wants to shack up for as long as he's gettin' some.

[Tom Rinaldo]

7. That progress was built on the blook sweat and tears of the likes of Norman Thomas also.

Many of the policy advances that Democrats won for America had their origin in the efforts of those working in other arenas, and sometime other political parties.

I will try to add more later. I am literally working on a Democratic party project right now and just was taking a mental pause to check on the replies here

[LuvLoogie]

9. My response not completed, edited to add more after

Inadvertent post.

[Ninga]

10. Well said and spot on! Nt

[pangaia]

15. I wouldn't know where to start.. humm

OK, I'll just take on this one--

"Independents aren't a cohesive political entity. They are, for the most part, non-committal, wishy-washy, what's in it for me types. "

YIKES !!!!!

I am not sure which emoji to add,
this one-



OR this one-





Oh well,on second thought, this one is interesting also.

"Bernie just wants to shack up for as long as he's gettin' some."

[JHan]

21. it's blisteringly truthful though...

Independents are either embarrassed partisans or in the closet. It seems too easy to see yourself as above the fray, where you know where your politics lies, but you can't define it. My politics leans very liberal, but I know where I stand.

I just find it very odd.

[RandomAccess]

19. Bernie continues to bash AND

continues to contribute.

[elleng]

8. THANK YOU, Tom,

again and as always.

[crim son]

11. THANK YOU.

So obvious, so simple, yet clearly not understood by some.

[riderinthestorm]

12. Ive stepped away from the shitshow on DU over this. Focusing my attn locally right now

This divisive nonsense here isn't moving us forward on regaining congressional, state or local control.

Some of these posters appear to be deliberate disrupters, exactly what the Russian intel ops ran in 2016. It's counterproductive to engage them anymore imo.

Great post. Thank you.

[LiberalLovinLug]

13. Bravo!

You say it with more politeness than I have been able to muster.
I find that some Democrats seem to be adopting the long held Republican belief of party before country. Or party name before good policy. And that shouldn't one step back and first decide what one feels is important to advance, and back whomever is working to advance those issues? Of course it has been the Democratic party (At least since 1948) who one would naturally align with based on their history since that point. But it seems to be like some kind of brand name that has become a set of blinders for some that cannot even appreciate or accept any outside help in furthering advancement in society, because they don't have the official stamp. Or that there must be something wrong with them for not joining the collective.

In fact it is quite brave to run as an independent. Not too many are successful, because it takes a lot more effort and the risks are greater. I would suspect that there are elected Democrats that secretly would love to not have to be beholden to a top down control of the party whip. But they don't have the guts to run as an independent because they'd get creamed. I don't blame them. But Bernie broke that mold, broke those rules, and has lasted for decades now in the Senate. Amazing accomplishment. And having such a popular, respected, Independent working with and for us, and taking in many independent voters with him? Priceless.

[ms liberty]

14. K&R. n/t

[democrank]

17. Thank you

Democrats are outnumbered by Independents. How on earth does it help the party....or MORE IMPORTANTLY....the country, to demean Independents or say we don't need them or state that we don't care what they have to say?

Ever listen to Angus King?

If the attitude doesn't change, we'll have to hold our rallies inside a gated community and hire bouncers to check credentials at the gate. Then we can sound like Trump did at his rallies with his, "Get 'em outta here"

Do the math. We will lose without Independents.

[Demsrule86]

18. The Democratic Party is the only way to enact progressive change ...and criticizing them which

happened on Sunday is not helpful

[Tom Rinaldo]

25. That simply is not true

The anti Vietnam war movement was not slavishly devoted to the Democratic Party - it organized mass protests against a Democratic President when LBJ escalated the war. The Democratic Party changed, in my opinion for the better as a result of mass protests against policies that many Democrats at the time had been supporting.

Black Lives Matter is not slavishly devoted to the Democratic Party either. That movement does not refuse to protest the wrong conduct of police officers in cities that have Democratic Mayors.

Change comes about in numerous ways, and not all of them unfailingly flow through the Democratic Party. I am proud to be a Democrat partly because I know that to a great extent our party is sensitive to legitimate pressure being brought against it at times by those not bound to party loyalty.

[RandomAccess]

20. + 1000 & thank you

I am puzzled by how so many posters here, IMO, seem to confuse loyalty to the Democratic Party with loyalty to the fight for social change that the Democratic Party is often identified with (usually legitimately, not sometimes not). . . . At the most fundamental level, only the agenda itself ultimately matters.

It puzzles me a little, but it mostly angers me. I want to scream: How DARE you waste valuable time and energy on such an argument when you should be thanking your lucky stars there are people like this working with / for us. And yes -- sometimes spurring us on with criticism.

[delisen]

30. Unfortunately when the criticism seems mostly negative &

is very public, it is easily used by opposition forces to reinforce the idea that the Democratic Party is bad.

The negative message about Democrats is amplified in the public arena. It's a juicy sale-able, soundbite. it gets media attention.

Sanders may be making many positive statements about the Democratic Party-I don't know because they are not making it through the media noise. This may vary around the country.

The message coming through to me and many others is that the Democratic Party is bad, corrupt, weak and beholden to big money, and Sanders is trying to reform it. It is so bad that Sanders won't even join the Democratic Party, even though they gave him some kind of position in it-that is how weak they are.

[RandomAccess]

31. Well

the Democratic Party is bad, corrupt, weak and beholden to big money,

It is.

and Sanders is trying to reform it.

He is.

And so are some inside the party. Others not so much.

It is so bad that Sanders won't even join the Democratic Party, even though they gave him some kind of position in it-that is how weak they are.

Meh. Not the message I get.

[delisen]

32. As I said, this may vary around the country regarding

the message people are receiving about the Democratic Party.

Your judgment is that the Democratic Party is bad and corrupt. Others consider the Democratic Party as a force for good and not corrupt.

Is it likely that people with opposing views such as this can easily join forces to work against a third force?

I think that it depends upon how each views the third force.

If one side believes that there is no difference between the Democratic Party and the Republican Party, that they are both part of entity referred to as "The Establishment" and the other side strongly disagrees and believes there is a vast difference between the two major parties, I think it unlikely that the two sides will work closely together, and if they do, it will be a very unstable relationship.

So currently I see diminished power for both sides in the debate about the Democratic Party, and that it opens for a unifier who can bring things to a higher level politically.

However, the Democratic Party should be able to improve their representation in 2018
due to Trump's performance or mal-performance.

Until then the best road forward seems to be the investigations.

[Tom Rinaldo]

33. "If one side believes that there is no difference between the Democratic Party and the Republican...

I think it worth stating that this is absolutely not the position that Bernie Sanders has taken, and he frequently emphasizes quite the contrary in his public comments. Granted, a rather small percentage of those who supported Bernie for President may feel this way, but not the Senator. He caucuses with Democrats and joined the Senate Democratic Caucus leadership team. He campaigned for Hillary Clinton last fall which indicated a clear party preference between Democrats and Republicans in a binary system (regardless of whether or not one feels he did enough to help her win) and he spurned any overtures from the Green Party. Earlier this year Bernie also toured the country with the newly elected Chair of the Democratic National Committee.

Yes he has voiced some criticism of the Democratic Party. No doubt in my mind that he sees it as constructive criticism when he does. No doubt in my mind either that not everyone agrees with him that it is constructive. But one would have to be willfully uninformed, no matter where you lived, to not know that Sanders himself sees a significant difference between the Democratic and Republican parties with the Democratic Party the far better choice between them.

[RandomAccess]

36. I also consider it a force for good

that is also, at times, corrupt (too many times).

[Lyricalinklines]

22. A B S O L U T E L Y!

Thank you for making these points here!

I consider DU a place Democrats gather to exchange ideas, discuss options, gather information with which we make informed decisions, etc. from a democrat standpoint.

We recognize control and power tactics dictating "either/or" choices are limiting, especially to the issue at hand. I don't come here to be dictated to on which idea/belief/campaign/candidate I need support in order to be considered a "true democrat". Nor am I here to gain approval for choosing Democrat party. I, too, see Democrat as a means to the end. I'm good with respectful disagreement/dissent within the process. Please Note: respectful.

We all see everywhere tactics in action intended to divide groups into factions - whether pertaining to political leanings, color, race, sex, whatever. DU is no exception.

We cannot - CAN NOT - afford further division.

[Martin Eden]

23. Great post!

The Democratic Party is a means to achieve social and economic justice. My loyalty is to those goals.

[Madam45for2923]

24. We see Bernie very differently.

[Tom Rinaldo]

26. That is probably true, but the point I am trying to make is not tied soley to that

I intentionally made no effort in this OP to either praise or defend any things that Bernie has said or done. My basic point is simply the fact that whether he or anyone else is or is not a registered Democrat does not by itself settle the question of whether they in any instance are overall acting in our larger interests. That's the gist anyway, beyond that there are many strategic nuances that we could get into.

[Madam45for2923]

27. It'd more true if he was not telling us plus reminding us. Believe me, I have no interest in him.

[moriah]

28. I appreciate your thought-out post.

Truthfully, I'd have less of an issue if he hadn't allowed others to say things like this for him:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/2016-dem-primary-live-updates-and-results/2016/04/bernie-sanders-democrat-independent-222228

That was actually a big deal for me, and perhaps bigger than it should be. But it seemed to be a sign that if we lost, Bernie would continue to try to make changes from within the Party, helping it retain unity. Not make pot-shots at us from the outside and still retain his "Independent" status, therefore continuing to fuel a division between the goals of economic and social justice in our party.

We should be fighting for both, all of us, together.

[MuseRider]

29. Again I want to thank you.

There is no way I will ever be able to express myself that well.

I also believe that those, like Bernie, can say a lot of things that he could not say if he was a Democrat without the risk of the party coming down on him. He wants change to begin now. The slowness of an organization or the need to moderate to incremental change to include all members is too slow when we are where we are now. As an Independent he can go wherever he wants to go politically to push the ideas that need to be considered to move us forward sooner rather than later without tarring a party with something they are uncomfortable with. I say these things giving him the benefit of the doubt that he is trying to do these things with the best intentions not the worst. Others certainly feel distrustful of him. I can understand that given all that was said about him during the primaries and since the election.

I like him where he is for those reasons above. As to becoming a Democrat to run I think there were many reasons to do so. For those of us who feel he was doing this for good reasons we see that he did not want to be a spoiler. He said so several times. If he had run as an I he would have then been able to run against the republican candidate directly and whoever won the nomination from the Democratic party. I don't think that would have been any more popular, perhaps worse and he surely then would have been blamed for the loss. He had the right to do that, I am not sure he knew the money would come to him like it did. I don't think he would have even then. I have no reason to doubt his good intentions but as I said, others certainly do distrust him.

As for criticising the party I guess it depends on how you feel about criticism. I, as a performer, needed all of it I could get, even as someone who does not perform as a major player. It made me better even if it made me mad and sometimes that criticism that made me mad was the best of all. It takes a while to see it but it is always important. If the Democratic party had been performing better than it has I would feel a little more iffy about the need for him to speak out. If there is a Democrat who looks at the performance of the party and thinks we should not loudly and publically say, oops and correct some things then I don't get it. Honestly we have been pounded and the R's have managed to convince people that they will help them while creating much distress for them in their lives and they are still voting for them. With all that power it is difficult at best for the Dems to even discuss the fraud in our system without sounding like the whiners the Republicans call us.

We need people like Bernie outside the system to allow the system to work. I wish I had a way into his mind, I do not but running as a Democrat against the party favorite is no reason to dismiss him. Criticizing the party at this point is iffy I guess but I see it as necessary and as an "outsider" he has the freedom to do it. I believe he has the responsibility to do it, I believe we all do. Just voting D is not going to change our minority status all over the country.

Sorry Tom, just early thinking out loud. Being someone who thinks Bernie is doing the right things I just felt the need to say something I guess. I don't understand the anger. Thank you again for a very well thought out post. I always look forward to reading when I see your name.

[Tom Rinaldo]

38. Thank you. Some most excellent thinking out loud. Certainly no apology called for.

I decided on my part for this OP not to make a direct case for how Bernie helps advance a progressive agenda in association with Democrats. I kept it to stating what to me should be obvious. In a nation where there are more Independents than Democrats, saying that someone is not a Democrat is not grounds to be dismissive. Democrats don't hold a patent on the truth. You make some good points and raise some good questions. Like I said above, noting that someone who shares common ideals with many progressive Democrats is not him or herself (as the case may be) a Democrat should not end a discussion. It is a starting point for exploring how Democrats can secure a stable working majority of the electorate with fewer than a third of it identifying as Democrats. And also if and when pressure from the outside can be productive.

By the way I agree with a whole lot of what you said. This is not a topic that is exhausted with a single thread. Here is an OP I posted in April. I haven't revisited it since then so I can't promise in advance that I still hold to every opinion that I expressed at the time:

"I Support Bernie Sanders Remaining an Independent"
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10028949746

[MuseRider]

39. That was an excellent thread too.

I commented in it too. When you write you bring up interesting trains of thought and I just cannot help myself. It is just so engaging to have a conversation and not a yelling match or even silly back and forth. A good conversation is special now. It is a rare thing these days and I really appreciate it.

I said Bernie, sorry I know you were keeping it to just anyone who is not a Democrat. He is the one speaking the most right now although from what I have heard from time to time there are others I would love to hear more from.

I used to need that label. I no longer do although because of Bernie I left being an Unaffiliated voter and went back to being a Democrat to vote in the caucus. I remain so now because the Democratic Party in Kansas is stepping up to the plate. It remains to be seen if the powers that were will stop it or if it is still not quite enough to win a closer count in the House and Senate and get that Governors seat. I will be involved somewhat I suspect but right now I am just listening to those who are. If we cannot make progress now I hate to imagine what it might take. I know some excellent Democrats who spent the last election getting moderate Republicans in so we can at least pull ourselves part way out of the frying pan. It has paid off so this time we run for the Dems to get closer and to get that main seat in Cedar Crest. My own Senator is an old and good friend of mine. She is a moderate Republican. I have spent years voting for her because she was better than anyone running against her and we could count on her to do the right things, she almost always did. This last election I voted against her because we had a good Democratic candidate. By the time the Koch brothers full color fliers of her face coming out of the gates of hell got to each of us every day for a month she lost. So we still have our moderate Republican friend. I don't want to vote her out but I will and I tried. I suppose my lack of needing a label comes from having to vote like that for most of my life. You have to find the best and they may not come from where you want them to come.

I guess I really do not understand at all why the fight but it sure means something to a lot of people.

[Duppers]

34. Bravo!!

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

I would like to ask folks why they are Democrats. Because they grew up in a liberal thanking household? Or if they grew up in a conservative household, why did they change?

I grew up in a red state; my parents are Republicans, as were their parents, as were their parents. Most of them, not all, were backward rednecks. My parents were at least adamant that their children go to college. Ah, but then two of us got "ideas" not just some education. We realize that the Republican Party did not promote either economic or social justice nor did its leadership make rational decisions to help most people. Republicans protect and defend corporations -- the military industrial complex that, ironically, Republican Dwight D Eisenhower warned about. I became a Democrat because of concepts and ideas. So, whenever I find someone vaulting those ideas to a higher plane, I am drawn to them.

[Orsino]

35. It's a big tent.

We need bills 'n' votes. Bills 'n' votes.

And the best agendas we can craft.

[Joe941]

37. thank you.