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Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:18 PM

I believe it is correct to criticize Bernie when he disrespects my party.

He is throwing bombs from the sidelines at a party he won't join.

Republicans do that. I don't like it when they do that.

I don't like it when greens do it.

I don't like it when libertarians do it.

I don't like it when an independent democratic socialist does it.

End of story.

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Reply I believe it is correct to criticize Bernie when he disrespects my party. (Original post)
boston bean Sep 2017 OP
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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:21 PM

1. Yep

 

Well said. And so simple to understand.

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Response to greeny2323 (Reply #1)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:10 PM

235. It's also simple to understand...

That it's exactly the response that Republicans want us to have. One would have hoped that the OPer would feel constrained by that... but I guess not.

Goodness... they can't wait for us to have a dozen+ candidates with their own variations of this debate.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:29 PM

2. What "bombs" has he thrown?

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #2)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:39 PM

4. Here is a sample.

"Certainly there are some people in the Democratic Party who want to maintain the status quo, they would rather go down with the Titanic so long as they have first-class seats".

Exactly who is he referring to. And that was from this year 2017.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #4)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:41 PM

6. Sorry that's not a bomb. It's actually true.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #6)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:43 PM

9. Exactly who is he or you referring to??

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Response to boston bean (Reply #9)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:45 PM

10. There are three Democrats still in the House

Who voted against the original ACA and who have voted with the GOP to weaken or repeal it while Obama was in office.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #10)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:49 PM

12. Ummm. He said this in 2017 whem trump is president.

Who is he and you referring to be explicit/exact please.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #12)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:50 PM

16. You're free to look it up yourself but it is a fact

There are still Dems in Congress who voted against Obamacare

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #16)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:52 PM

18. Yeah. So. you and think he meant three lowly house member who in 2017 are not voting

Along with republicans to repeal aca???

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Response to boston bean (Reply #18)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:53 PM

20. It validates what he said.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #20)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:06 PM

28. Maybe for you and you alone. For me it validates NOTHING.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #28)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:06 PM

29. Truth hurts

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #29)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:10 PM

36. I'm not hurt,you??

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Response to boston bean (Reply #36)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:20 PM

101. Only the American people are hurt.

So do you think that Sanders, who votes with the Democrats overwhelmingly, and takes leadership roles, and gets out the youth vote, is less valuable to the Democratic party than the Blue Dog DINOs that vote disturbingly often with the GOP? Who is a better Democrat party platform promoter?

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #101)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:28 PM

103. I think Sanders needs to stop the attacks on the party. That is what I think.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #103)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 01:24 PM

214. There's a difference between

 

Criticisms and Attacks. I know, it's tough to understand.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #101)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:07 AM

170. These are criticisms that should be shared within the Democratic Party leadership.

Not on national news/ talk shows or forums and speeches. When he does that he doesn't come across as a team player, but rather as someone who is saying look at me, look at how smart and insightful I am, the Dems are losers.

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Response to Fla Dem (Reply #170)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 01:29 PM

220. But maybe he is right?

The thing is, he is valuable to them precisely because he is not beholden to the hive mentality. Someone that can see the forest for the trees. IMO Sanders IS smart and insightful. And as a prominent independent that votes with Democrats, he is in a unique position. And the fact is, Democrats have been 'losers' a lot lately. And the pattern of shutting out the left wing of the party and trying to out Republican the Republicans has been a colossal failure. So its only natural that his voice would be listened to now. That criticism is deserved and needed to find new ways to win.

The only time I hear accusations that its all about him and he is only interested in promoting himself to show "how smart and insightful" he is, is from those that don't like him and are projecting that onto him. Because you can say that about any leader throughout history. We only know about those leaders because they stepped up so the public could find out how "smart and insightful" they were. How else do they operate? If his exposure and what he says makes him popular....instead of criticizing that popularity, maybe, just maybe, what he is saying is important?

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #101)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 07:08 PM

290. His "leadership role" is just about in name only.

His function as Chairman of Committee Outreach is to communicate the views of the various Senate Democratic Committees to the other members of the Senate Democratic Caucus.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #29)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 12:52 PM

211. But this is ridiculous, Bernie says that, attacks the D party and you say it is

OK to launch that attack because ONE PERCENT of the party thinks that way?

Absurd.

Ridiculous.

You really believe a couple of rogue democrats is why Bernie says these things? It is worth attacking the entire party as he has done here and with the recent attack about it being a failure, because two or three are wrong?

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #20)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:35 PM

109. Crap like this is the problem.

 

Congratulations. You're helping keep the party divided.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #109)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:27 AM

198. Yep.

This.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #10)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:49 PM

13. Link to where he stated this please, where these are the people he is talking about.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #13)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:01 PM

23. Can't tell if you're asking me or Boston bean

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #23)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:12 PM

40. That is an article from 2 and a half years ago.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #40)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:26 PM

57. And amazingly still relevant.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #57)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:37 PM

74. Lol

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #40)

Wed Sep 20, 2017, 02:36 PM

315. I saw that. (nt)

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #23)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 12:11 PM

209. Well, if we're picking issues, didn't he vote against gun control several times?

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #23)

Wed Sep 20, 2017, 02:39 PM

316. Where are the three current democrats who voted against the ACA

on this page?

Not seeing any.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #13)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:11 PM

37. A $700 billion defense spending bill passed today.

 

90-7.

Only 4 Democrats voted no. And one independent.

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Response to HarmonyRockets (Reply #37)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:15 PM

42. Ok?????

Democrats should not vote for national defense?

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Response to boston bean (Reply #42)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 10:39 PM

142. No, Democrats should not vote

to line the pockets of the military industrial complex.

Shall we examine how Feinstein and her husband have become millionaires?

http://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=Richard_C._Blum_and_Dianne_Feinstein:_The_Power_Couple_of_California

I suspect that's the kind of thing Sanders was talking about.

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Response to Rural_Progressive (Reply #142)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 10:42 PM

144. Prove your allegations.

Seems like you are talking like you know something prosecutors don't.

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Response to Rural_Progressive (Reply #142)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:19 PM

237. You need money for a Senatorial campaign...there is nothing wrong with it...if you can't show

quid pro quo...it is meaningless...Consider this. The link is below. I am not saying Sen. Sander's did anything wrong; one needs money to run an election, but you are wrong to attack Sen. Feinstein in this manner for essentially the same thing...taking money in order to win election.

"A lavish Martha’s Vineyard Democratic fundraiser that Bernie Sanders attended in 2007 featured lobbyists for many of the industries he now rails against on the presidential campaign trail, according to a guest list obtained by MSNBC."

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/sanders-campaign-finance-purity-not-always-possible

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Response to HarmonyRockets (Reply #37)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:17 PM

45. What does that have to do with the OP?

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Response to HarmonyRockets (Reply #37)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:22 PM

51. So.... you want to primary everyone?

 

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #51)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:33 PM

67. No

 

Not everyone.

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Response to HarmonyRockets (Reply #67)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:36 PM

73. Everyone except those four?

 

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #73)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:38 PM

79. No

 

I wouldn't go that far right off the bat. Start with the worst and work your way in.

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Response to HarmonyRockets (Reply #79)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:42 PM

83. We need specifics. Not just broad brushed insinuations and attacks.

I think this is a big part of the issue. None of this is backed up with facts or a valid reasoning. This stuff like the party is status quo, the party is corrupt etc and no one can back it up with FACTS.

People need to stop accepting these attacks as truth unless a true fact can be articulated in support of the attack.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #83)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:47 PM

86. Voting records are facts

 

And they are right out there for all to see.

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Response to HarmonyRockets (Reply #86)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:50 PM

88. hmmmmm. Votes are recorded as facts. Almost evry single democrat votes the same way so

They are corrupt?? Establishment?? Not real dems?? Please explain exactly how this works.

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Response to HarmonyRockets (Reply #86)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:52 PM

89. American voters have huge support for the military and their representatives reflect that.

 

It's called getting elected, and Obamacare hurt the house and senate worse than any other issue. Yet you never hear about that part of what "Dems are doing wrong".

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #89)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:54 PM

90. Ayup. People have very short memory.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #90)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:03 PM

95. Bernie takes his F-16 money, same as the rest of them. Kuchinch of Dept of Peace fame....

 

Has turned out to be a nutter. And so it goes....

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #89)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 03:31 AM

156. Look at polls from the last decade

 

A CNN poll just came out that said 58% of people are against an increase in military spending.

Yet it passes 90-7. An increase of $80 billion. To put that in perspective, that's almost twice as much as Bernie's free college program. Yet if he were to introduce that bill tomorrow, there would be 10 threads on this board by so called liberals going all out asking about how it would be funded.

And guess what they're going to be cutting to make up for the increase?

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Response to HarmonyRockets (Reply #156)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:03 AM

167. +1

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Response to HarmonyRockets (Reply #156)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:54 AM

179. THIS

Cuts to the heart of the issue.

Yet it passes 90-7. An increase of $80 billion. To put that in perspective, that's almost twice as much as Bernie's free college program. Yet if he were to introduce that bill tomorrow, there would be 10 threads on this board by so called liberals going all out asking about how it would be funded.


I'm all for party, but when you are party first, second and third, and then principles somewhere down the line, you have some serious soul searching to do.

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Response to HarmonyRockets (Reply #156)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 10:38 AM

190. Yet Bernie takes his pork for his state for a reason.... you know that. What people want cut is ....

 

Other people's pork- not there own.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #190)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 01:40 PM

226. Oh yeah!

 

Bernie takes HIS pork. And we all know he fought for it with fervent fury. Damned Bernie - out there beating the drums for MORE military waste!
His constituents took the money because it's there - not because their senator fought for it. Now if his constituents had all protested their portion of the pork pie, they'd have petitioned Bernie to bring in some cash to support the maple syrup industry.

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Response to Plucketeer (Reply #226)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 03:17 PM

255. I know people think this "15 Trilion Dollar Boondoggle" and waste of military spending is fine but..

 

You can't convince me they're not full of shut when theycall HRC a hawk and talk about cutting miltary spending. Leaf peeping and ice cream aren't enough to keep the lights on in Vt.

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Response to HarmonyRockets (Reply #156)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 12:05 PM

206. Spot. On.

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Response to HarmonyRockets (Reply #86)

Wed Sep 20, 2017, 12:10 AM

307. Indeed they are

And so is Sander's, yet you speak as though his record is somehow superior. Does that mean you oppose the Brady Bill, waiting periods for gun purchases, and believe gun corporations must have civil liability so as to not have a their profits encumbered by pesky citizens concerned about their lives? Do you also approve of Sanders four votes opposing closing Gitmo, his votes against every immigration reform bill since the 90s, except the one the year before he announced for president? Do you support the Minutemen and the f-35? How about subsidies for big sugar? Your comment above about the defense bill today make me wonder if you have actually ever looked at Sanders voting record.
https://votesmart.org/candidate/key-votes/27110/bernie-sanders/22/defense#.WcHjVtFOmhA

I myself don't happen to agree than the profits of gun corporations should take precedence over human life, and I view gun policy in America as a form of genocide on urban populations. I dont believe that affluent white communities should send their toxic waste to poor brown communities, and I certainly don't think it appropriate to profit from such dumps.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eoin-higgins/what-about-sierra-blanca-bernie_b_9233818.html
I also don't think it appropriate for politicians to have off-shore trusts. https://vtdigger.org/2017/09/18/investigation-underway-police-stop-rabbi-gunpoint/#.WcEgINN97-Y
I happen to think govt officials should be transparent about their financial holdings so voters can be informed of any potential conflict of interest.

Voting records are indeed public. What is unfortunate is how few citizens look at or care about them, particularly those who put the careers of certain politics before principle, citizens, and intellectual integrity.

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Response to HarmonyRockets (Reply #37)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:45 PM

305. That's quite an evolution

If by Independent you mean Sanders rather than King. It is fascinating what presidential aspirations do to one's voting record. https://votesmart.org/candidate/key-votes/27110/bernie-sanders/22/defense#.WcHjVtFOmhA

Does that mean he's going to stop backing the F-35? https://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/12/why-bernie-sanders-is-backing-a-15-trillion-military-boondoggle.html
If the govt could get some of those trillions of dollars back, we might be able to pay for some healthcare.

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Response to HarmonyRockets (Reply #37)

Thu Sep 21, 2017, 12:34 PM

317. Lemme guess, gonna primary all the Democrats who voted for it?

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #10)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:24 PM

243. Blue dogs in red states...your point? They all voted for it this year when it counted.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #10)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 04:23 PM

266. Bernie has his share of questionable votes

on guns, the F-35, Gitmo, immigration, Gitmo, and a host of other things. Why is he exempt from the criticisms he hurls at others?

And how do votes by three Democrats justify attacks on the entirety of the party AND its voters?



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Response to BainsBane (Reply #266)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:54 PM

306. Bernie is the judge, Bernie is the jury...


He must not be questioned, his statement must not be discussed or evaluated, at least according to some of his presenter/followers.

To the extent that I consider myself a Democrat, when I listen to Senator Sanders on the Democratic Party, I am reminded of the time I put in at a particularly authoritarian religious school, and almost reflexively feel the urge lower my head and atone for my sins I am bad, bad, bad, and must mend my ways.

I never responded well to that approach as a child, and am unlikely to do so as I adult.

I actually don't think Sanders can help making his negative comments. I have begun to see him as a type of revivalist preacher.

I think it would have been great if he had warned us about McConnell's machinations in his latest attempt to destroy heath care coverage for millions. Instead he focused on rolling out his Medicare for All plan.

I really should not expect Senator Sanders to alert me. He marches to his own drummer, has his own priorities and ambitions. I think I need to keep my attention focused on the Republican attempts to harm us.










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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #6)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 10:42 AM

191. Sorry, that is intentionally, unfairly trashing an entire party.

A fair statement would be that in both major parties, some people would let the ship go down, as long as they had 1st class seats.

But he targeted it to only one side, and unfairly accused everyone in that party of doing that or being complicit. That's not a fair statement. That's an attack, no matter how you look at it. There's only one reason to make such a general attack against a party: to harm that party, the entire party, and only that party.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #4)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:42 PM

7. What!!!!?

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #7)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:49 PM

14. Ayup.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #4)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:56 PM

21. That's the TRUTH and smart people who are being honest and not in denial KNOW it.

The DEMS have suffered massive electoral losses in all aspects of government, nationally and locally and to claim everything is just fine is laughable!

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Response to m-lekktor (Reply #21)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:07 PM

30. So who are you calling ummmmm....un-smart??

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Response to boston bean (Reply #30)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:30 PM

64. fyi reading is key

 

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Response to shanny (Reply #64)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:33 PM

71. I read fine and I also have a real keen knack with comprehension. You??

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Response to boston bean (Reply #71)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:39 PM

80. whatevs, sweetie

 

neato, even

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Response to shanny (Reply #80)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:05 PM

97. Thanks kiddo.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #4)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 11:18 PM

153. It's pretty clear.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #4)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 01:27 PM

218. whoaaa...how dare bernie.....nt

 

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Response to boston bean (Reply #4)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 04:19 PM

265. also.... "The current model of the Democratic Party obviously is not working"

 

that is another insult to the democratic party.

I just read that he isnt going to run as a democrat in his 2018 senate run....He is going back to running as independent.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #2)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:07 PM

233. He said the democratic model isn't working.

Even though the repubs control all three branches of the federal govt & a majority of state govts, they are POd at his statement. Sure, the GOP lied and cheated and stole their way into power, but for being the supposed smart party, the dems sure got played.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:34 PM

3. Bernie had one job to do and he succeeded.

I won't help him do it again.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:39 PM

5. KR

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:42 PM

8. K&R

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:46 PM

11. Ok, what has Bernie said that you disagree with?

 

Are you able to prove him wrong?

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Response to CherokeeFiddle (Reply #11)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:12 PM

38. Well, just yesterday he said:

"The Current Model of the Democratic Party Obviously Is Not Working".

The "current model" is based on the most recent Party Platform, written last year. He lays claim to helping to change the platform to include his ideas and policies.

So, he helped form the "current model", and now he's claiming it's not working. So why doesn't HE take at least partial responsibility for the model that's not working?

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Response to George II (Reply #38)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:27 PM

59. Wait though

 

why should Bernie take responsibility? I thought he wasn't a Democrat?

In all honesty though, is the model working? We have lost over 1100 seats, under what model of anything is that considered a success?

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Response to CherokeeFiddle (Reply #59)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:47 PM

87. Don't forget

Gerrymandered districts helped those losses. Remember 2010? Many repubs won control of many states that election. They drew the lines. The Dems got screwed.

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Response to CherokeeFiddle (Reply #59)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 12:31 PM

210. So he can attack and attack but takes no responsibility?

Why we lost seats has more to do with gerrymandering than anything else, I shouldnt have to say that on a LIBERAL or DEMOCRATIC site, I shouldnt be reading something here that makes me say that...

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #210)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:02 PM

229. It was a joke

 

and as far as gerrymandering having to do with it more than than anything else, I will disagree and I will cite you this as my source why I say this. Does gerrymandering play a part? Sure but there is a lot more to it than that.

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Response to CherokeeFiddle (Reply #229)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:46 PM

247. An opinion column from April 23 proves your point?

OK.

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Response to mcar (Reply #247)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:48 PM

248. Of a poll?

 

I would say so yes.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:50 PM

15. What a meanie

 

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:51 PM

17. I couldn't agree more. n/t

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:52 PM

19. We've got a sociopath in the WH

And a majority in Congress that is about to vote, again, to kill people.

I really wish Senator Sanders would direct his ire in their direction and actually work to help the party with which he caucuses, rather then tearing it down.

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Response to mcar (Reply #19)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:02 PM

24. Done and done:




https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/7/16069112/bernie-sanders-obamacare-trumpcare

“Bernie has repeated to us over and over and over again, ‘Our top priority is doing everything in our power to make sure 20 million people don’t lose their health care,’” said Ari Rabin-Havt, a senior adviser to Sanders.


As the debate over the Senate Republican bill stretched from one month to four, and then from four months to seven, Sanders resisted the temptation to make his whirlwind tour across the country primarily about single-payer health care.

“Throughout this whole thing, there was always the temptation to pivot to make a stronger case for Medicare-for-all, rather than keeping the ACA at the center of our focus,” one aide recalled. “Bernie always insisted to us: ‘No, no, no.’”


Sanders has been a team player.

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Response to TCJ70 (Reply #24)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:06 PM

27. I knew I'd get this response

Yes, he said this and good on him. But what gets the most attention? His constant attacks on the Democratic Party.

My suggestion is he ease off on that and focus more on his good criticism of the current regime.

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Response to mcar (Reply #27)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:07 PM

31. "Constant attacks"... guess that's why Gillibrand said he's a leader

For the democratic party

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #31)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:09 PM

35. She said in the interview there is no national leader until a president is elected.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #35)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:15 PM

43. But if you cut out what she said before and what she said after that "leadership" quote...

...and just look at the selected 30 seconds, she said he's the leader.

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Response to George II (Reply #43)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:26 PM

54. I did not hear "the" leader.

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Response to delisen (Reply #54)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:27 PM

60. Neither did I, but some are now saying that she said it.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #35)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:30 PM

63. Oh she said his name alright. Said it first when asked "Who's the leader of the Democratic party"

And she talked about him the most. Like it or not, he's the heart of the party.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #63)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:32 PM

65. Give the exact verbatim response. Because she spoke with an emphasis on ideas. Not on the persons.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #65)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:33 PM

70. I don't need to. I already posted on this earlier.

Tell me if you think I'm wrong, whose name did she say before his?

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #70)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:36 PM

72. I just told you why i think you are wrong. Can you respond to that? It is not at odds with her

saying a name or what name was said first.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #72)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:37 PM

75. You have ZERO facts to back up what you say

And when presented with facts that counter what you say you ignore them.

It is useless to argue with you so fare thee well friend.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #75)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:38 PM

77. The video and transcript would back up what I said. Oh my.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #77)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:40 PM

81. Only the land of alternative facts and fake news.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #81)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:43 PM

84. If you disagree, post the evidence for your stance.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #75)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:44 PM

113. Whatever Gillibrand said she's not the arbiter of who is leader of our party.

Our members decide that, along with congresspersons (all of them not just her) and party officials.

It's ridiculous and absurd to be arguing that a non-Democrat is "the" leader of the Democratic Party.

He caucuses with us and that's fine. He's given some leadership responsibilities to, frankly, keep him and his supporters happy.

It's sorta of a "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" deal. (we get to use you like you used us to run under the Democratic Party banner}.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #31)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 10:28 AM

186. That doesn't mean she was right

I know what she said and I strongly disagree with her. Bernie is no leader of anything, especially the Democratic Party. (Yes, I know that's heresy and I should be burned at the stake!)

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Response to mcar (Reply #19)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:03 PM

25. He's trying to help the party...

...by telling them to stop doing the same thing that has already cost them the House, the Senate, the Presidency, and a bunch of Governorships.

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Response to thesquanderer (Reply #25)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:08 PM

32. He's trying to help the party by publicly trashing it?

Surely, he's more media savvy than that. MSM likes nothing more than their silly "Democrats in Disarray" meme. Surely, Sanders knows better than to perpetuate it.

There are ways to improve the party that don't involve publicly trashing it. Again, the good senator surely knows that.

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Response to mcar (Reply #32)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:21 PM

50. I don't see the quote in question as "trashing the party." (n/t)

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Response to thesquanderer (Reply #50)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:38 PM

78. K

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Response to mcar (Reply #32)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:48 PM

114. Agreed, but you won't hear a peep on that truth. They'd rather ignore common sense...

and keep on saying he's trying to help the party — helping the party by trashing it is certainly a "different" approach.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:01 PM

22. Other folks bother me when they disrespect the values

Of the Democratic Party.

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Response to Sienna86 (Reply #22)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:05 PM

26. +1000 to that

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Response to Sienna86 (Reply #22)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:08 PM

33. Exactly who is disrespecting the values of the Democratic Party?

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Response to boston bean (Reply #33)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:13 PM

41. People who question the Independent Senator from Vermont apparantly.

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Response to SaschaHM (Reply #41)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:17 PM

46. i think that may be the only bar to reach.

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Response to Sienna86 (Reply #22)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:58 AM

182. I Agree

Especially when they claim to be members of the Democratic Party

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:09 PM

34. You're damn right it is!

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:12 PM

39. I believe your definition of "disrespect" is off.

Sanders, like all of us, has every right to criticize the Democratic Party not that he has done much of that. I swear I'm so sick of these posts here. Keep fighting Sanders. The GOP and Trump appreciate it.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #39)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:19 PM

49. He has not done much of that? I could come up with at least a dozen things he's said, but since....

....they occurred last year, in order to comply with the TOS, I can't. And he's still doing it.

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Response to George II (Reply #49)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:23 PM

52. If he's still doing it, why would you have to go back to last year?

Do you have an example from 2017, i.e. that "he's still doing it"?

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Response to thesquanderer (Reply #52)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:26 PM

58. Yesterday: "The current model of the Democratic Party obviously is not working", and he didn't....

....stop at that.

Plus, Nina Turner said this summer that she and he would be open to endorsing republicans in future elections.

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Response to George II (Reply #58)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:20 PM

102. Truth...

If we've lost the House, Senate, Presidency, and so many Governorships, then I think "The current model of the Democratic Party obviously is not working" is a fair criticism. I know, you say he didn't stop there, but maybe you stopped too soon, because you didn't include anything objectionable, at least IMO.

As for Nina Turner, last I checked, she was not Bernie Sanders. If you have to reach to other people to "prove" that Sanders is saying he shouldn't, then I guess it wasn't so easy to actually find Sanders saying things he shouldn't.

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Response to thesquanderer (Reply #102)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:31 PM

104. Well, we gained seats in the Senate and House AND we "won" the presidency in 2016. How...

...did that happen?

I won't get too deeply into what Sanders has said, even during the general election campaign. Don't need alerts and removed posts.

Fact is, he DID criticize the party yesterday despite us GAINING seats in 2016.

Nina Turner is his chosen President of "Our Revolution", his organization, and she claims to speak for him.

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Response to George II (Reply #104)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 11:02 PM

148. The answer to your question...

...is that Obama was a transformational candidate. You can't count on always having that. I think the DNC was stronger under Dean than under Obama's Wasserman, though.

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Response to thesquanderer (Reply #148)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 03:37 PM

261. Once again, in 2016 we gained seats in the House and Senate. Obama wasn't a candidate in 2016.

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Response to George II (Reply #261)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 04:25 PM

269. Whoops, messed up my years, sorry!

2016 congress is a complicated conversation. Yes, we picked up seats, though I would not say that we did well. So in a classic glass half empty vs half full scenario, you could either say our gains in 2016 are evidence that the Dem party is on the right track or that our limited gains in 2016 (considering what was available in competitive races) are evidence that we need some changes. I guess I would just suggest this question: Looking at the bigger picture, are you happy with the progress of the Democratic party over the last 20 years?

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Response to George II (Reply #104)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 03:19 PM

256. We didn't win the presidency

You may not like the electoral college, but thems the rules. We knew that going in.

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Response to George II (Reply #106)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 10:59 PM

146. That's basically the same quote as your last one.

The newspaper gave it a sensationalistic headline, but it's the same thing he said before. Let's just stick with Sanders' words. Not someone editorializing about what he said (in a headline or otherwise). Not the words of someone else who claims to speak for him (if indeed Nina Turner has claimed that as you suggest, I don't know). Just *his* words. And this article had basically the same thing you already provided i.e.:

“The current model and the current strategy of the Democratic party is an absolute failure,” Sanders said.

“The Democratic party needs fundamental change. What it needs is to open up its doors to working people, and young people, and older people who are prepared to fight for social and economic justice.

“The Democratic party must understand what side it is on. And that cannot be the side of Wall Street, or the fossil fuel industry, or the drug companies.”


Dems like Elizabeth Warren and Sherrod Brown could have given very much the same speech, IMO. Certainly that last paragraph. Sanders may be more dramatic in his delivery, but the point is the same.

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Response to thesquanderer (Reply #146)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 08:53 AM

163. Sure Warren and Brown COULD have....But they are Democrats who would rather build the party than

divide it. I guess that's why they joined the party.

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Response to MrsCoffee (Reply #163)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:54 AM

204. So whether the message is or is not legitimate depends on the messenger? (n/t)

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Response to thesquanderer (Reply #204)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 01:26 PM

216. No.

I'm saying that neither Warren nor Brown are going to go with a message of attacking the Democratic Party right now. They have similar messages about wall street etc, but they aren't engaged in circular firing squads.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #39)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:33 PM

68. Except he's not a Democrat. Which really actually pisses me off.

He shouldn't have run in our fucking primary if he wasn't going to keep his word to work from within it to change it.

Instead, he's continuing to tout his "Independent" label and use it to divide the Party further, when it's the last thing we need right now. You can be a vocal voice for change within the Party, and that's what he said he was going to do. He's not taken even the token step of putting a D beside his name. He only did it when it was convenient, when he wanted to make a Presidential bid.

Until he does that, no, he isn't like "all of us", nor does he have the same right to criticize.

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Response to moriah (Reply #68)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:45 PM

85. Yeah he has EVERY right to criticize

By your logic, no one but Republicans have the right to criticize the GOP. Sorry, but the Democratic Party is FAR from perfect and frankly some of the posts on here are creepy. I've come to suspect that some DUers would vote for Genghis Khan over Sanders provided Khan made sure to run as Dem.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #85)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:57 PM

93. Ummmm. You have missed the point in its totality.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #85)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:11 PM

99. Let me see if I can explain a little more of what I meant.

This forum is called Democratic Underground.

When you say, "All of us", that suggests internal criticism, which is extremely healthy indeed. It's why we have primaries, why we work to build a platform. We have flaws and must find ways to work with everyone in our big tent. We will have our squabbles, because it is a big tent. But the ideal is unity and trying to get the best for everyone in our big tent, including the little groups within it.

If that's what I truly perceived Bernie to be doing -- making the criticisms, but from inside, with the goal to strengthen the party -- I would have few issues. But he sadly is pushing a division in the party of addressing economic vs social justice, when we should be focusing on both. And even if it wasn't his intent to do so, that's what his candidacy did.

And we can't make the false assumption that social justice will come when we have economic justice. (If we all drove the same car maybe, but we know that's not what Bernie or anyone supporting him means by economic justice) But since rich black men are still pulled over and harassed on the presumption they stole the nice vehicle, obviously just having the trappings of wealth doesn't negate the social paradigm we have to address as well.

They both must be worked for together, and we must work together as a Party to get the best for everyone.

----

There's a big difference between the right "all of us" have to criticize our Democratic candidates -- where our criticism is for the health of the party -- and the rights of outsiders to trash it and cause division.

We of course are all Americans and can say whatever the hell we want. But that's what I meant by "the same right as all of us". Us Democrats.

If you really can't see the distinction, perhaps this isn't your home. And I'm sorry for that, because you've been with us awhile.

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Response to moriah (Reply #99)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 08:31 AM

159. Sorry. Skinner disagrees.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1251774376#post3

Long exchange there, two years old. I can't find a revision to the founder's thinking anywhere, so if you can, please post it and I'll sit corrected.

Until that time ... it seems clear that you are misinterpreting the terms of service.

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Response to PDittie (Reply #159)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 08:38 AM

161. Is it then that I don't have the right to criticize Bernie?

Because if TOS says I'm not allowed to say I really AM pissed that Bernie let people lie for him to say hed'd be putting the I aside, then you better alert on both of my posts.

And fast.

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Response to moriah (Reply #161)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:31 AM

174. I won't alert your posts.

I think that would contribute to the ongoing disruption of this forum.

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Response to PDittie (Reply #159)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:00 AM

164. And you're right about the age of that post.

For more history, you'll understand I hope that DU has had several long-standing rules that could get posts removed if you posted supporting independents OTHER than Bernie when a Democratic candidate was running in the same election, because he effectively had made it where no Democratic candidate could win VT but caucused with us.

You could promote a Green running against a Republican only, but not if the Democratic Party was also fielding a candidate in that election.

And also, we are supposed to be reasonably respectful when speaking of him, as we would of others we perceive to be "on the same side". And I do think Bernie is on the same side -- I just strongly disagree with his tactics being what we need when we have a divided Party and Republican majorities in government.

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Response to moriah (Reply #164)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:39 AM

176. Indeed (as to your first graf).

But several members have the same sincere misunderstanding as you re: Sanders being a Democrat or not, and have applied same in the jury system.

That's probably all I can say without having this post hidden because of this, from the TOS:


Don't interfere with forum moderation
Don't post messages about site rules, enforcement, juries, hosts, administration, alerts, alerters, removed posts, appeals, locked threads, or anything else related to how this website is moderated (except in the Ask the Administrators forum).

Why we have this rule: The purpose of Democratic Underground is to discuss politics, issues, and current events. Open discussion of how the website is run tends to distract from our core purpose.



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Response to PDittie (Reply #176)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:50 AM

178. Eh, juries, I've not even been really thinking about them.

But I do still misunderstand why YOU seem to think I have a "sincere misunderstanding" of Sander's party status.

Despite letting Weaver promise for him that he would remain part of the Democratic party even if he lost, he continues to self-identify with the Independent label -- even on the "DNC Unity Tour".

For posts on this forum, supporting his efforts is allowed and making attacks vs criticism is not.

That's not because of his official Party affiliation, but was a special rule for him long before he made a bid for the Presidency because even though Dems still ran in VT, their candidate was likely to lose. And remains because he accepted money from the DNC for his Senate bid and has, for the most part, caucused with the Democratic Party.

I think I have a very clear understanding of both his actual party affiliation and how he has been treated by DU TOS since practically the beginning of time.

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Response to PDittie (Reply #159)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:26 PM

244. Perhaps then you could explain the many Kamela Harris, Nancy Pelosi and Dianne Feinstein posts...

some criticism is permitted apparently of Democrats...Sen. Sanders is not subject to different rules.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #85)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:59 PM

123. I can assure you that this Democrat would never vote for Genghis Kahn

I can also assure you that I would never vote for anyone who was not a registered Democrat.

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Response to leftofcool (Reply #123)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 03:21 PM

257. So if Sanders had won the primary

you would not have voted for him?

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #85)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 05:21 PM

273. Yep

We have a two party system. Why would you think we Dems want a non-member?

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:16 PM

44. Agreed. End of story. PERIOD.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:18 PM

47. The funny thing is I actually agree with SOME of Bernie's criticisms.

But with that being said, I agree with you as well.

I'm not a fan of "backseat drivers".


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Response to PragmaticLiberal (Reply #47)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:26 PM

56. Like it or not, many believe Bernie is currently among those in the front seats.

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Response to thesquanderer (Reply #56)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:38 PM

76. That's how she feels and that's fine.

I just take Bernie at his word: He's not a Democrat.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:18 PM

48. Like moths to a flame.

The earth would open up and swallow Pittsburg but we'd be too busy swarming over Bernie threads.

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Response to RandySF (Reply #48)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:25 PM

53. Why ask people to just ignore his attacks?

Why are people more offended about the response to the attack than they are offended by the attack?

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Response to boston bean (Reply #53)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:53 PM

117. Because he should be attacking lying, cheating repugs instead of his allies.

If he wants to critique the party there's a way of doing it interally instead whenever someone sticks a mic in his face.

A certain independent senator is too fucking eager to do that.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:26 PM

55. Especially when that ...

... independent democratic socialist only ran as a Democrat in order to use the Party's resources to further his personal political ambitions, and then dropped the (D) designation the minute it no longer served his purposes.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:29 PM

61. Bernie could heal the sick, end starvation and poverty and yet

 

somebody somewhere will be upset about something about Bernie. Sigh...

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Response to CherokeeFiddle (Reply #61)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 10:06 PM

126. That sounds exactly like what happened here

to President Barack Hussein Obama our Democratic President that was loved by many, yet hated by a few. He was vilified.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #126)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 10:29 PM

139. That is sad :(

 

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Response to CherokeeFiddle (Reply #139)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 10:48 PM

145. It is sad.

Best President of my lifetime...yet

Yes, Bernie Sanders Wanted Obama Primaried in 2012. Here’s Why.


https://www.thenation.com/article/yes-bernie-sanders-wanted-obama-primaried-in-2012-heres-why/

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #126)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:49 PM

249. He was vilified all over this board, she

And those of us who supported him were mocked and ridiculed. I won't forget.

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Response to mcar (Reply #249)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 04:49 PM

271. Yes he was mcar.

I arrived here a month before the 2012 election.

I am grateful that we had the BOG back then...never would have survived without it.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #271)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 05:44 PM

280. I've been here since 2002

I couldn't believe my eyes some days.

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Response to CherokeeFiddle (Reply #61)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 10:11 PM

127. Not really

Most Democrats just don't like him.

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Response to leftofcool (Reply #127)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 10:29 PM

141. All polls indicate otherwise

 

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Response to CherokeeFiddle (Reply #141)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 12:01 PM

205. Example please?

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Response to George II (Reply #205)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:04 PM

231. You know the polls. You've seen them

 

Show us one which says otherwise

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Response to CherokeeFiddle (Reply #231)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:18 PM

236. I didn't make a sweeping proclamation about polls, you did.

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Response to George II (Reply #236)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:21 PM

240. And you've seen the polls

 

I'm not going to get into a dance with people who refuse to believe things, and no matter what, nothing will be good enough for them.

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Response to CherokeeFiddle (Reply #240)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:23 PM

241. Some of the ones I've seen don't reach your conclusion. Ergo, not "all".

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Response to George II (Reply #241)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:23 PM

242. I have not seen any who say that. Not a single one.

 

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Response to CherokeeFiddle (Reply #242)

Wed Sep 20, 2017, 10:47 AM

312. You clearly haven't seen them "all".

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Response to George II (Reply #312)

Wed Sep 20, 2017, 01:27 PM

314. Oh but I have!

 

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Response to leftofcool (Reply #127)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 10:40 PM

143. Sorry,

My opinion, he was vilified and many that did that are long gone. Willy and Manny come to mind along with the POSUCS, Pitt.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:29 PM

62. This is what I know: I know i

I know that Bernie inspires me, as he also inspires millions of Americans to think big.

I know that he is correct is saying that Dems need to welcome people with diverse views into the party.

I am a gun owning, pro-life Union leader Democrat. I voted for Bernie, and then I voted for Hillary.

I WANT my country to be better- and it is going to take millions to become inspired to make it happen.

It's going to take Bernie types, and Hillary types, and young people, and old people, and a wide range of Americans in order to make change happen.

God bless all leaders in OUR party.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:32 PM

66. K&R!

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:33 PM

69. Republicans are the party of non-dissent.

I am glad that the Democrats are known for their ability to look at all sides and inputs from all sources-painful as it may be. Intolerance is Republican- Tolerance is Democrat

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:40 PM

82. Agree

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:55 PM

91. NO more Birnie unless it is current and newsworthy, PLEASE!

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:55 PM

92. Me too

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Response to boston bean (Original post)


Response to Post removed (Reply #94)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:04 PM

96. My party is the Democratic Party. You?

You sound extremely angry at me. Did I make you mad?

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:10 PM

98. LOL, this thread backfired.

 

"My party right or wrong" works for one party but it's not ours, and I am happy about that.

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Response to KTM (Reply #98)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:11 PM

100. Is that your take?? It takes all kinds to make the workd go round they say.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #100)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 12:08 PM

208. 100+ recs, 200+ responses. Nice "backfire" BB. It think you made your point fairly strongly.

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Response to George II (Reply #208)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 03:12 PM

252. LOL

 

Yah, and of those 200+ responses, how many express total disagreement with the OP ?

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:32 PM

105. Focus on common goals please. That's what we need common goals and hard work.

it's not about the party. It's about the people. It's about everyone.

They want us attacking each other and it seems to be working.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:33 PM

107. When don't you believe it is correct to critisize Bernie Sanders ?

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Response to CentralMass (Reply #107)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:36 PM

110. what???

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Response to CentralMass (Reply #107)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:42 PM

111. You seem to find that it is correct to critize Sanders under any circumstances.

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Response to CentralMass (Reply #111)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:43 PM

112. I do?

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Response to boston bean (Reply #112)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:53 PM

118. Yes in my humble opinion you do. I'll say on my behalf that

there ave been many things that I have disagreed with the party on or with individual politicians on. I voice my opinion and vote accordingly. Not doing so would make me (imo) a sycophant.

If you don't stand for what you believe in then get what you deserve.

I think many of Bernie's ideas are very popular among Democrats and I think thst some of his criticisms are well founded.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:34 PM

108. Please let this stop.

Stop stirring the pot.

Just stop.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:49 PM

115. It's a strange place to be in ...

... a "Democratic-supporting website" where you're free to criticize ANY Democrat, but you can't say a word against the NON-Democrat who thinks he should be running the party he refuses to be a member of.

Posting ad nauseam about how Hillary screwed-up her campaign and lost the election is fine - but mentioning what Bernie has said after the election is "re-fighting the primaries".

I've been here so long, I still remember when supporting Democrats was what DU was all about. Who knew that it would devolve into a site where a self-proclaimed non-Democrat would be given special status, immune from any criticism whatsoever - forever and ever, amen - no matter much he denigrates the Democratic Party - the very party this site was founded to support, and defend against all outsiders who disparaged it.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #115)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:53 PM

119. We had a real stolen election. You remember the reason this website was founded?

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Response to boston bean (Reply #119)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:59 PM

124. Ah, yes ...

... I remember it well.

Seems like a million years ago now, when you realize how far this site has strayed from its original purpose.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #115)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 10:15 PM

129. ++++

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #115)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 10:19 PM

134. "but you can't say a word against the NON-Democrat". And yet...

...the OP remains.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #115)


Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:51 PM

116. You mean like the time he said the DNC was "worthless" under Debbie Wasserman Schultz?

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #116)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:58 PM

121. Harry Reid is a democrat.

And he didn't and hasn't gone on a book tour tearing the party apart with insults and attacks.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #116)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 11:04 PM

149. One idea of criticism is that it should be judged on merit.

If the criticism is uncomfortable, another idea is to judge the legitimacy of that criticism based on a lettering system.

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Response to dgauss (Reply #149)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 11:08 PM

150. isnt judging on merit itself, a form of criticism?

I'm sensing an infinite regress coming on.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #150)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 12:03 AM

154. Nah, it's as simple as this

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:58 PM

120. These attacks on Bernie....

are starting to be like the attacks about Hilary's emails!

Enough with the Bernie bashing!!!

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Response to Catch2.2 (Reply #120)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:59 PM

122. You really feel I bashed Bernie with this OP??

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Response to Catch2.2 (Reply #120)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 10:02 PM

125. Fuuny, no one on DU had a problem attacking Hillary and her emails

They had no problem attacking the Clinton Foundation. They had no problem attacking Hillary for her speeches to bankers which by the way were all about her experiences as SoS. They had no problem calling her vile names, so you might want to think again about what you see as attacks on Sanders.

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Response to leftofcool (Reply #125)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 10:17 PM

131. Are you kidding?!

No one on DU had a problem attacking Hilary and her emails??? Are you serious or joking? I had a problem with it like most people, including Bernie supporters. They had no problem calling her vile names???...What are you talking about? The only people that had no problem were right wingers. You can try and connect it to Bernie Sanders supporters, but that is simply false.

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Response to Catch2.2 (Reply #131)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 11:01 PM

147. Do search of the archives

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Response to boston bean (Original post)


Response to Name removed (Reply #128)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 10:16 PM

130. What inconvenient truth? Please be precise.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #130)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 10:22 PM

137. Ya, cuz truth is so mysterious and destructive it can't be said.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #130)


Response to Name removed (Reply #138)


Response to boston bean (Reply #130)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 11:17 PM

152. Some serious cray-cray there.

Disappeared in the middle of a jury. Let's just say it was an easy decision.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 10:17 PM

132. K&R

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 10:18 PM

133. Take a chill pill

 

You're overreacting, Bb.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 10:20 PM

135. Why should anyone object? Fair is fair, right?

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 10:20 PM

136. What do they fear?

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Mon Sep 18, 2017, 11:11 PM

151. It's not a bash, and it's an important point.

The ACA is in serious jeopardy and his everything-and-nothing plan is a deceptive distraction. We need to keep focused on the real issue and MFA isn't that. It's not like we haven't been down this road before and where has it left us? No TPP, no Paris agreement, nuclear brinkmanship with tiny NK, you name it. And if the ACA goes Social Security and Medicare will soon follow.

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #151)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 06:49 AM

158. We can't win elections based solely on reactionary politics

 

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:48 AM

155. K&R

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 08:34 AM

160. I am not OK with this..

 

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Response to disillusioned73 (Reply #160)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 06:05 PM

284. Apparently we are doing nothing wrong.

It is a really sad chart.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)


Response to Post removed (Reply #162)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 10:02 AM

183. Goose-stepping? So you're saying Democrats are Nazis and fascists.

This is a forum for Democrats. You're kidding, right?

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Response to Post removed (Reply #162)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:12 AM

194. Good grief. Comparing the Democratic Party (and its leadership) to goose-stepping Nazis?

That's offensive. Stop it!

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:02 AM

165. Did I Miss The Loyalty Oath, Or Something?

Criticism of "the party"? Tell me you're kidding.

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #165)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:02 AM

166. Yes you missed something alright.

No where in the OP does it state "the party"... LOL

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Response to boston bean (Reply #166)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:06 AM

168. "My Party"/"The Party"

You see a distinction. I don't.

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #168)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:06 AM

169. when something is put in quotes, that usually mean someone said it.

In this case it was not said.

LOL...

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Response to boston bean (Reply #169)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:22 AM

172. Please re-read my post

I quoted "party".......NOT "the party"

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Response to roomtomove (Reply #172)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:34 AM

175. are you professor GAC? that is who I am responding to roomtomove..

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:08 AM

171. I agree with the OP

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:29 AM

173. The term "Lemming" comes to mind.

Republicans have the House, Senate, White House, SCOTUS, media advantage (radio talk), Citizen United, majority of state Governorships and legislative bodies.

Maybe the party needs a direction change.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:47 AM

177. Been warned

I like Bernie's ideas. I want him to join the Dem Party sooner rather than later to avoid the mess of the 2016 election, if he wants to run again. That's pretty much it. For this I got a warning email that I broke the rules. I will never understand this thinking.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:56 AM

180. It's correct to defend your party, where it is defensible.

Criticizing Sanders requires no permission.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:56 AM

181. And I believe it is correct to criticize the Clintons for destroying my Party.

They were outmaneuvered by the lowest of the low.
End of story.

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Response to dogman (Reply #181)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 10:04 AM

184. This, unfortunately, is the painful truth. NT

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Response to dogman (Reply #181)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 05:19 PM

272. The Clintons did not destroy anything,

certainly not what you call "your" party.

Hillary won the popular vote. There is more activism and more Democrats are running for office than ever.

The lowest of the low? The election was stolen by the Russians, gerrymandering, stolen votes, the biased media, Comey and a variety of other factors.

HRC was up against a barrage of barriers to her victory. I am sure you would be here criticizing her even if she had taken office.

BTW, this is MY party. I will criticize anyone who disparages it, uses it for personal gain or says unjustified things ... ESPECIALLY if they are an outsider to the party.

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Response to murielm99 (Reply #272)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 05:33 PM

277. Your Party, not mine?

I am a retired Union member who watched the Clintons push Unions out the door with their centrism and third way DLC bullshit. You can disparage whomever you want, my point is, so will I. BTW, in spite of my dissatisfaction with their methods, I have voted for them in all national general elections.

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Response to dogman (Reply #277)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 07:16 PM

292. All the usual propaganda words I expect

to hear from the fringe left. Centrism. Third way. DLC. I am glad that though you make a lot of noise online, there are actually very few of you IRL.

LOL.

Hillary was not involved in any third way activities,. This is a bullshit accusation. The DLC has not existed for years.

Yes, it is my party. It is a big tent. You can try to shove your credentials down our throats all you want. You are still unjustified in your criticisms of the Clintons.

BS is the one trying to tear our party apart, and it is not the first time. He wanted to primary Obama. He is not a Democrat, and he is divisive.

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Response to murielm99 (Reply #292)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 07:55 PM

293. Study the history of Bill Clinton as Gov of Arkansas and Hillary's role there.

Reject voters at our peril, that is how we ended up with T-rump. Arrogance was a key to her loss, keep it up.

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Response to dogman (Reply #293)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:06 PM

299. I have.

Goodbye.

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Response to murielm99 (Reply #292)

Wed Sep 20, 2017, 01:06 AM

308. My credentials v. Hillary's.

I was handbilling for Democrats in my county at the age of 10, before Hillary was even a young Republican. She is an interloper in my Party. She helped Bill, after he was failing as a politician in Arkansas, by building a bridge to the GOP. She may be a successful politician but to me she is a newcomer and helped surrender our Party to 3rd way schemes. Bernie has brought a new generation to activism in politics. Bernie is more of a Democrat in his views than she could ever be. That being said, she is not my enemy, I will not surrender to the GOP to advance my career, nor has Bernie.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 10:26 AM

185. I agree. Bernie is welccome to make proposals and work towards passage of bills he supports.

But cut the negative stuff. The GOP handles that quite well already.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 10:32 AM

187. A general view of the Democratic Party should be in order

 

A general view of the party itself would indicate where we go not just as a party as it exists today, but what the Democratic Party should do to advance society in the future. To that end, the Democratic Party represents to me the following:

1. Transformation of oppressive capitalism to progressive socialism
2. Transformation from restrictive states rights to national progressive policies
3. Transfer of wealth from mostly white elites to all people on an equal basis
4. Elimination of private property to that of progressive community control and allocation
5. Elimination of all fossil, thermal, and nuclear fuels
6. Universal health care
7. Elevation of women and minorities in all areas, including the demotion of men and whites to accommodate this necessary process
8. Acknowledgement of all wrongs with appropriate reparations in perpetuity as mandated

THIS is the way I see the Democratic Party advancing.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 10:32 AM

188. Stirring the pot

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 10:33 AM

189. without his help in current media/news Republicans would have got rid of ACA by now.

unfortunately he's only one person spend most time on health care.

other Ds currently elected work hard too on several issues like the give away of Americans public lands. unfortunately several bills Republicans just won by a very slim 20 votes?

midterms most are up for re-election, Republicans will love any help from "Ds" to get rid of Bernie. He always votes with D-party.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 10:45 AM

192. Theres enough DINOs in the party.

So when we have a Democrat in all but name come along...

Then the Democratic Party needs to take note and act according to Democratic party values.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 10:58 AM

193. Oh brother! Disrespects?

End of story.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:15 AM

195. I don't goose step.

Republicans do it. I don't like when they do that.

I don't like it when greens do it.

I don't like it when libertarians do it.

I don't like it when independent democratic socialists do it.

End of story.


Growing up in the Bush years, what most visibly separated Democrats from Republicans was the capacity for critical self-reflection. So, I guess we're done with that now?

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #195)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:25 AM

197. I completely agree with you.

 

In fact, I believe it is correct to criticize ******* when she *********** *** *****, although this is not a forum where I can state that view.

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #197)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:33 AM

200. This primary has exposed fundamental confusion over what "THE PARTY" is.

The party is not Hillary Clinton. It's not Elizabeth Warren. It's not Chuck Schumer or Nancy Pelosi. The party is us. You. Me. Every registered Democrat. The people sitting in office are not our leaders. They're our employees. And like any good employer we should be constantly evaluating their performance.

Lately, though, things have been hunky dory. People don't want efficacious politicians. They want celebrities, surrogate parents, and saints. And none of them seem to realize this obsession with media figures is partly what put Trump in the White House to begin with.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #200)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 01:28 PM

219. "Every registered Democrat"

I agree.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #200)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 01:29 PM

221. Please keep that in mind, every REGISTERED Democrat.

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Response to George II (Reply #221)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 05:44 PM

279. Will do, George!

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Response to George II (Reply #221)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 05:54 PM

283. I am not a registered Democrat. My state does not register voters by party.

I consider myself a Democrat because I support the party's platform and I vote for Democrats. My state is not the only state that does not have party-based voter registration. Are all the people in those states - there are 22 of them, in fact - who consider themselves Democrats and vote for them not really Democrats because they aren't registered Democrats?

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #195)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 01:26 PM

215. So democrats goose step? sick

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #195)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 01:32 PM

222. What's the meaning of your expression "goose step", that's the second time it's been used...

...in this discussion.

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Response to George II (Reply #222)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 01:33 PM

224. You are on the internet.

You ipso facto have a dictionary at your disposal.

Use it.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #224)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 01:38 PM

225. Using your suggestion, the first hit I get on google is this video. So can I safely conclude....

....that by you saying "I don't goose step" you're equating the Democratic Party with the National Socialist Party of 1930s Germany?

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Response to George II (Reply #225)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 01:45 PM

227. The only thing you can safely conclude is you don't know what a dictionary is.

Hint: Google is not a dictionary.

Additional hint: Dictionary.com is a dictionary. It's easy to remember because its name is what it is. Neat, right?

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #227)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:02 PM

230. Sorry, that's not the "only" thing that I can safely conclude.

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Response to George II (Reply #230)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:09 PM

234. OH SNAP.

Witty retort.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #234)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:21 PM

238. .

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Response to George II (Reply #225)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 03:28 PM

259. Funny. When I Google "goose step"

the first thing I get is a definition. The link right under that is the Wikipedia link. Weird that yours is so different.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #195)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 03:33 PM

260. What part of calling Dems "goose steppers" is "critical self-reflection"?

Your reference is pure disrespect to Dems. It is not constructive criticism. It is shameful. Calling Dems who do not want others disrespecting their party Nazis is outrageous. EVERYONE deserves respect. That is very difference from saying you can't criticize someone. Nowhere in the OP is she saying no one should criticize the Democratic Party.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #260)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 05:50 PM

282. The part where I recognize my peers are not as awesome as I once thought they were.

That they treat their political party like it's a fucking social club instead of a means to an end. As is enshrined perfectly by your insipid response.

I mean, really. Nazis? Where in the galloping fuck do the Nazis come into this?

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #282)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 06:45 PM

286. You saw the first hit I got on google earlier today for "goose step", didn't you?

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Response to George II (Reply #286)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 08:38 PM

294. That wasn't the first hit you got

Since that claim is DEMONSTRABLY false, how much weight does anything else you write merit?

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Response to tkmorris (Reply #294)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 08:51 PM

296. You calling me a liar?

God bless you.

3.....2.....1.....

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Response to George II (Reply #296)

Wed Sep 20, 2017, 09:24 AM

309. Why would anyone say that?

Google results for "goose step".

Result #1: A dictionary definition of the term.

Result #2: A Wikipedia article describing goose stepping, its history, and a long list of not-Nazi countries currently employing it.

Result #3: A video of the SS marching.


So, yeah. Nazis are the first thing that pops up... if you ignore the other two items that pop up first.

And not that it is especially relevant. Goose stepping originated nearly two centuries before Nazis, was in common use by the German military before the Nazis took over, and remains in common use today by non-Nazi countries. The order in which Google results appear does not change that. To search for this term and conclude by virtue of a 30 second YouTube clip that goose stepping is the purview of Nazis is evidence only of one's failure to verify this conclusion with other, perhaps more in depth references. Whether this failure is due to laziness, ineptitude, or dishonesty is immaterial.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #309)

Wed Sep 20, 2017, 09:38 AM

310. So, in backing down from claiming I wasn't truthful you say I'm lazy, inept, or dishonest...

....how sweet of you.

Do you understand how google works? Go to another computer somewhere and do the same search. Chances are good that you'll get a different search result.

Have a blessed day.

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Response to George II (Reply #310)

Wed Sep 20, 2017, 10:37 AM

311. You mean to say...

..."Do you understand Google employs a ranking system to determine the order in which search results are displayed, with that system being based on 1) how many times a site is linked to by other sites, 2) categorization tags, 3) PageRank, 4) number of subscriptions, and 4) number of times the result is clicked"?

No, I obviously don't.

But I'm glad you're now in agreement that maybe you shouldn't draw conclusions purely from Google's ranking system.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #311)

Wed Sep 20, 2017, 10:48 AM

313. No, I mean to say what I said, thank you.

I'm still trying to figure out if I'm "lazy, inept, or dishonest..."

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:24 AM

196. Constructive criticism of the party is not the same as disrespect. n/t

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #196)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:05 PM

232. There is no such thing as constructive criticism ...all it does it drive voters away...especially

if the one criticizing is not even a member of the party.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #232)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 06:44 PM

285. well at least you are honest about how you think the party ought to operate.

stunning, but thanks for sharing.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:28 AM

199. Go ahead. People who agree with support you and those who disagree won't.



I like it when Bernie criticizes the Democratic party even when he says things that people like you think are disrespectful.

It makes you and people like you listen.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:37 AM

201. amen to you!!

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:39 AM

202. correct is a little strong, and if you never ever have harsh words for your party, then you aren't

 

taking any ownership yourself, but it is certainly your right to criticize Sanders for things you disagree with him on. But it isn't just YOUR party. It's our party. I want OUR party to be better. What Sanders is saying about where we've gone wrong and what we should be doing, is in my opinion, pretty damn accurate.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:40 AM

203. Some of his comments would violate DU guidelines.

about Supporting the Democratic Party and not bashing Democrats.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #203)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:28 PM

245. This is why I think it needs to be looked into again. However, I would not like to see threads

trashing him either because he does caucus with Democrats...above my pay grade

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 12:07 PM

207. wahhhhhhhhhhhhh

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 12:56 PM

212. Same back too you!

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 01:07 PM

213. How does this post help DEMS win in 2018?

Bash Bernie! Then let's bash Hillary!

We need to laser focus on uniting to win in 2018.

So sick of this divisive bullshit!

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Response to RiverStone (Reply #213)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 01:27 PM

217. Damn Straight!

I believe it is correct to be upset when Trump disrespects my country and uses his high office to commit treason, destroy the social fabric of our country while enriching himself and his family and cronies, dismantle vital agencies like HUD, the EPA, NOAA, etc., and is doing his best to get us into a nuclear shoot-out with N. Korea.

I believe that my time and my energy are precious, and I choose to use what I have to fight to get my country back. I don't give a damn what Bernie said or Hillary said or Alfred E. Newman said. I want actions - not quarrels over supposed or even real insults that occurred in the past.

Keep on with the championing of your PAST candidate of choice and just see what happens in the midterms and 2020. Do you really think the average voter will give a damn about what Bernie said in 2016 or 2017? Will the average voter have memorized Hillary's book and make their votes based upon something she wrote 3 years before the 2020 election. They will not.

If you want to fill the repugs with glee and give them an edge in the upcoming elections, just keep this crap up, people.

Just tell me this: What viable candidates can the democratic party field in the 2020 presidential election and what can we do to ensure that the dems win big time in all the elections? Screw Bernie and screw Hillary. Bottom line.

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Response to RiverStone (Reply #213)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 01:32 PM

223. How does calling the party an absolute failure help unite us for 2018?

Many of us are sick of the divisive bullshit.

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Response to MrsCoffee (Reply #223)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 08:44 PM

295. Maybe you haven't been paying attention

The party has been getting it's ass kicked with some regularity of late. Our last presidential candidate lost to a caricature cross of Pee Wee Herman and the Pharma Bro, brought somehow to life, one assumes with a magic ball cap or the equivalent. Figuring out WHY we are failing is the task at hand, not dickering over whether we are. That ship sailed some time ago.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 01:54 PM

228. When people are not open to suggestion without getting defensive,

then it does no good for everyone. This may help.

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe

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Response to chwaliszewski (Reply #228)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:21 PM

239. Great cartoon.

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Response to chwaliszewski (Reply #228)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 06:45 PM

288. I think that goes both ways.

 

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:38 PM

246. If the Dem establishment wants Bernie and progressives to get on board . .

 

it will have to shift its position on a number of issues . .

The Dem establishment backs the TPP (still!), won't challenge Big Pharma,
doesn't do much about predatory student loans, or other "extractive" non-industries
like pay-day lenders, they back the militarists' policies in Syria and brag about
wrecking Libya, they look for ways to oppose universal health care and the
Fight for $15, they have no interest in taking on the banksters or the ONE
PERCENT, they are fine with the party taking in tons of corporate cash. I could go on . .

It's not about loyalty, it is that Bernie is right on these (and other) issues.

So please stop demanding unquestioning loyalty - it does not work, and never has.

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Response to FairWinds (Reply #246)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 04:36 PM

270. Don't know how many elections it will take for them to figure this out.

I'm guessing many more.

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Response to FairWinds (Reply #246)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 05:24 PM

274. I am a progressive

I'm a proud member of the Dem Party too. I am very on board with the Dem Party.

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Response to DownriverDem (Reply #274)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:33 PM

304. i'm on board with them too . ..

 

but I want them to change - both for my sake and my
kids and grandkids.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:50 PM

250. We need *ALL* the support we can get right now.

*EVERYONE* is attacking the democrats, and it's getting quite revolting honestly. We aren't the ones who elected the fat jerk in the White House now.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:52 PM

251. Did you say the same bout Hillary when she dissed the DNC under the guise of constructive criticism?

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 03:14 PM

253. K & R

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 03:16 PM

254. I realize I'm new here, but how long is this going to go on?

Comparing Sanders to Republicans and libertarians and Greens is not going to help the Democratic party move on.

I mean, sure, if he's wrong about what he's saying, then don't change those things. But, is he wrong? Seems to me like there is a fundamental problem with a party that has lost control of the presidency, the House, the Senate, SCOTUS, and a majority of governorships. SOMETHING has to change. If we just do what we did in 2016, nothing will be different.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #254)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 04:06 PM

263. It seems like for some the primary never ended.

I always thought people had a right to run for office. But, some are holding this anger because Bernie dared to run against Hillary for President.
Even though it is perfectly within rights to run for office.
And they never forgave him for doing so

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 03:23 PM

258. That's pretty much where I stand, as well.

To me, if he wants to be a Democrat, he needs to be a Democrat. It gave me no grief that Hillary was awarded the "Democratic" nomination with her having been a lifelong Democrat.

To date, independent candidates have not done well in a Presidential election; therefore, Bernie felt his best chance was by having one of the major parties' candidacy. He tried and failed to achieve that, and I actually thought that Bernie (himself) was okay with that.

At this point in time, he needs to either become a Democrat or else understand that NOT being one is going to have limitations as with any other independent. Accept the limitations of being an independent if that is his choice.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 04:04 PM

262. I believe it is correct to criticize my party when it is being stupid

I am a lifelong democrat. I have been supporting democrats for over 40 years.
And frankly, the party took a wrong turn in the 90s and keeps hitting dead ends ever since.
For the party to fix itself and get better it needs some tough love, some honest talk and a good shaking to snap it out of its current nonsense.
It needs a good kick in the pants.
To just go along, or say you are not going to say anything when your party is being dumb, to think being a loyal democrat means walking in lockstep, being a stepford wife, is harmful and does it no good. It will just keep making dumb choices and mistakes until people tell it the truth.
Just like being a good friend is to be honest when that friend screws up, its the same with the party.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 04:16 PM

264. Agreed.

 

Bernie keeps criticizing the team he says he is part of. He is doing this on purpose to push his base of supporters like he did with the anti-Hillary push.

If he is going to be a democrat he needs to work for the democratic party not insult it.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 04:24 PM

267. K&R

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 04:25 PM

268. Yes it is

and that should be obvious to all Democrats. In the age of T-party and Trump, we have to support our friends.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 05:26 PM

275. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD

stop. already.

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Response to UT_democrat (Reply #275)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 06:45 PM

287. It is never going to end.

I have no idea what the intent of the OP is, although "a strong and unified party going into the 2018 election" would seem far-fetched.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 05:31 PM

276. It's always okay to criticize Sanders here on the DU. nt

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 05:38 PM

278. Agree 100% nt

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 05:49 PM

281. K&R. Well said, BB

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 07:07 PM

289. It's my party too and most Democrats are with him on this. There is room for improvement.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 07:14 PM

291. The country has passed the party by...

running a deeply entrenched establishment candidate in the most anti-establishment election in our history was a strategic mistake that cost us. The party needs to be able to feel the pulse of the country and stop being tone deaf.

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Response to mudstump (Reply #291)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 10:45 PM

297. this view feeds the false progressive vs establishment dichotomy.

I've never seen "establishment" used like an albatross round the neck of a politician the way it was used last year. Any organization that endorsed her became "establishment" by dint, the height of absurdity - these were advocacy groups who toil for the most vulnerable in America.

The only candidate who actually cared was the so called "establishment" one .

Anti-establishment arguments work well for Republicans because of their loathing for government. A woman who wanted to defend Obama's legacy and make more progress for Americans was demonized, even though it was Republicans who made Obama's terms in office a nightmare because of their constant obstruction.

Hillary is no more "establishment" than Biden, for example, or Senators who have been in Congress for decades and"Tone deafness" - did you read the Democratic Platform?

Also, it seems you have an issue with the 4 million who favored the Democratic Nominee over her opponent?

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Response to JHan (Reply #297)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:01 PM

298. She was called "establishment" because her husband was once president.

Both times HRC ran people treated her like she was Bill Clinton's wife running for president.

There was no basis for it. She was no more establishment than Joe Biden or John Kerry or Barack Obama.

And she certainly never ran on the message "it's my turn."

It is disgusting how she was treated.

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Response to StevieM (Reply #298)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:07 PM

300. Yes and Stevie, I'll never get over it...

I have NEVER seen "establishment" thrown around so carelessly against a candidate, over and over. It was a sly political hit job.

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Response to mudstump (Reply #291)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:09 PM

301. HRC was not actually someone who had long been liked by the establishment, whatever exactly that

means. And the reason why most party regulars did or did not like her at various points is because they followed the sentiments of the American people.

Hillary had fantastic poll numbers for many years. Politicians followed the polls, as they often do. It wasn't imaginable that the damage from the fake email scandal would be as bad as it was. And they certainly couldn't allow themselves to believe that Benghazi could be legitimately used to cause lasting damage.

2016 was not as much an anti-establishment year as 2008, or even 2012 when the Great Recession was dragging on. If it was then Trump would not have been facing such a major defeat had it not been for repeated efforts by the FBI to destroy the Democratic candidate.

When the state of the election flipped after the Comey intervention people took advantage of it to act like Trump had been racking up support all along and we just didn't see it until Election Day. The evidence clearly contradicts that IMO.



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Response to StevieM (Reply #301)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:17 PM

302. +++++++++

hell and just for one example: she's so establishment, the media loved her ( OH wait........)

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:23 PM

303. That's very fair.

It's the whole "I'm going to criticize Bernie because Hillary lost the general election to Trump" stance that comes off a bit askew.

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Response to boston bean (Original post)

Thu Sep 21, 2017, 12:36 PM

318. I'm with you. nt

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