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boston bean

(36,181 posts)
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:18 PM Sep 2017

I believe it is correct to criticize Bernie when he disrespects my party.

He is throwing bombs from the sidelines at a party he won't join.

Republicans do that. I don't like it when they do that.

I don't like it when greens do it.

I don't like it when libertarians do it.

I don't like it when an independent democratic socialist does it.

End of story.

318 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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I believe it is correct to criticize Bernie when he disrespects my party. (Original Post) boston bean Sep 2017 OP
Yep greeny2323 Sep 2017 #1
It's also simple to understand... FBaggins Sep 2017 #235
What "bombs" has he thrown? berni_mccoy Sep 2017 #2
Here is a sample. boston bean Sep 2017 #4
Sorry that's not a bomb. It's actually true. berni_mccoy Sep 2017 #6
Exactly who is he or you referring to?? boston bean Sep 2017 #9
There are three Democrats still in the House berni_mccoy Sep 2017 #10
Ummm. He said this in 2017 whem trump is president. boston bean Sep 2017 #12
You're free to look it up yourself but it is a fact berni_mccoy Sep 2017 #16
Yeah. So. you and think he meant three lowly house member who in 2017 are not voting boston bean Sep 2017 #18
It validates what he said. berni_mccoy Sep 2017 #20
Maybe for you and you alone. For me it validates NOTHING. boston bean Sep 2017 #28
Truth hurts berni_mccoy Sep 2017 #29
I'm not hurt,you?? boston bean Sep 2017 #36
Only the American people are hurt. LiberalLovinLug Sep 2017 #101
I think Sanders needs to stop the attacks on the party. That is what I think. boston bean Sep 2017 #103
There's a difference between Plucketeer Sep 2017 #214
These are criticisms that should be shared within the Democratic Party leadership. Fla Dem Sep 2017 #170
But maybe he is right? LiberalLovinLug Sep 2017 #220
His "leadership role" is just about in name only. George II Sep 2017 #290
But this is ridiculous, Bernie says that, attacks the D party and you say it is Eliot Rosewater Sep 2017 #211
Crap like this is the problem. Adrahil Sep 2017 #109
Yep. calimary Sep 2017 #198
Link to where he stated this please, where these are the people he is talking about. sheshe2 Sep 2017 #13
Can't tell if you're asking me or Boston bean berni_mccoy Sep 2017 #23
That is an article from 2 and a half years ago. sheshe2 Sep 2017 #40
And amazingly still relevant. berni_mccoy Sep 2017 #57
Lol sheshe2 Sep 2017 #74
I saw that. (nt) ehrnst Sep 2017 #315
Well, if we're picking issues, didn't he vote against gun control several times? George II Sep 2017 #209
Where are the three current democrats who voted against the ACA ehrnst Sep 2017 #316
A $700 billion defense spending bill passed today. HarmonyRockets Sep 2017 #37
Ok????? boston bean Sep 2017 #42
No, Democrats should not vote Rural_Progressive Sep 2017 #142
Prove your allegations. boston bean Sep 2017 #144
You need money for a Senatorial campaign...there is nothing wrong with it...if you can't show Demsrule86 Sep 2017 #237
What does that have to do with the OP? sheshe2 Sep 2017 #45
So.... you want to primary everyone? bettyellen Sep 2017 #51
No HarmonyRockets Sep 2017 #67
Everyone except those four? bettyellen Sep 2017 #73
No HarmonyRockets Sep 2017 #79
We need specifics. Not just broad brushed insinuations and attacks. boston bean Sep 2017 #83
Voting records are facts HarmonyRockets Sep 2017 #86
hmmmmm. Votes are recorded as facts. Almost evry single democrat votes the same way so boston bean Sep 2017 #88
American voters have huge support for the military and their representatives reflect that. bettyellen Sep 2017 #89
Ayup. People have very short memory. boston bean Sep 2017 #90
Bernie takes his F-16 money, same as the rest of them. Kuchinch of Dept of Peace fame.... bettyellen Sep 2017 #95
Look at polls from the last decade HarmonyRockets Sep 2017 #156
+1 Go Vols Sep 2017 #167
THIS hueymahl Sep 2017 #179
Yet Bernie takes his pork for his state for a reason.... you know that. What people want cut is .... bettyellen Sep 2017 #190
Oh yeah! Plucketeer Sep 2017 #226
I know people think this "15 Trilion Dollar Boondoggle" and waste of military spending is fine but.. bettyellen Sep 2017 #255
Spot. On. Arazi Sep 2017 #206
Indeed they are BainsBane Sep 2017 #307
That's quite an evolution BainsBane Sep 2017 #305
Lemme guess, gonna primary all the Democrats who voted for it? Eliot Rosewater Sep 2017 #317
Blue dogs in red states...your point? They all voted for it this year when it counted. Demsrule86 Sep 2017 #243
Bernie has his share of questionable votes BainsBane Sep 2017 #266
Bernie is the judge, Bernie is the jury... delisen Sep 2017 #306
Sorry, that is intentionally, unfairly trashing an entire party. Honeycombe8 Sep 2017 #191
What!!!!? sheshe2 Sep 2017 #7
Ayup. boston bean Sep 2017 #14
That's the TRUTH and smart people who are being honest and not in denial KNOW it. m-lekktor Sep 2017 #21
So who are you calling ummmmm....un-smart?? boston bean Sep 2017 #30
fyi reading is key shanny Sep 2017 #64
I read fine and I also have a real keen knack with comprehension. You?? boston bean Sep 2017 #71
whatevs, sweetie shanny Sep 2017 #80
Thanks kiddo. boston bean Sep 2017 #97
It's pretty clear. InAbLuEsTaTe Sep 2017 #153
whoaaa...how dare bernie.....nt mentalslavery Sep 2017 #218
also.... "The current model of the Democratic Party obviously is not working" lancelyons Sep 2017 #265
He said the democratic model isn't working. CrispyQ Sep 2017 #233
Bernie had one job to do and he succeeded. 4now Sep 2017 #3
KR Me. Sep 2017 #5
K&R sheshe2 Sep 2017 #8
Ok, what has Bernie said that you disagree with? CherokeeFiddle Sep 2017 #11
Well, just yesterday he said: George II Sep 2017 #38
Wait though CherokeeFiddle Sep 2017 #59
Don't forget DownriverDem Sep 2017 #87
So he can attack and attack but takes no responsibility? Eliot Rosewater Sep 2017 #210
It was a joke CherokeeFiddle Sep 2017 #229
An opinion column from April 23 proves your point? mcar Sep 2017 #247
Of a poll? CherokeeFiddle Sep 2017 #248
What a meanie HarmonyRockets Sep 2017 #15
I couldn't agree more. n/t Stand and Fight Sep 2017 #17
We've got a sociopath in the WH mcar Sep 2017 #19
Done and done: TCJ70 Sep 2017 #24
I knew I'd get this response mcar Sep 2017 #27
"Constant attacks"... guess that's why Gillibrand said he's a leader berni_mccoy Sep 2017 #31
She said in the interview there is no national leader until a president is elected. boston bean Sep 2017 #35
But if you cut out what she said before and what she said after that "leadership" quote... George II Sep 2017 #43
I did not hear "the" leader. delisen Sep 2017 #54
Neither did I, but some are now saying that she said it. George II Sep 2017 #60
Oh she said his name alright. Said it first when asked "Who's the leader of the Democratic party" berni_mccoy Sep 2017 #63
Give the exact verbatim response. Because she spoke with an emphasis on ideas. Not on the persons. boston bean Sep 2017 #65
I don't need to. I already posted on this earlier. berni_mccoy Sep 2017 #70
I just told you why i think you are wrong. Can you respond to that? It is not at odds with her boston bean Sep 2017 #72
You have ZERO facts to back up what you say berni_mccoy Sep 2017 #75
The video and transcript would back up what I said. Oh my. boston bean Sep 2017 #77
Only the land of alternative facts and fake news. berni_mccoy Sep 2017 #81
If you disagree, post the evidence for your stance. boston bean Sep 2017 #84
Whatever Gillibrand said she's not the arbiter of who is leader of our party. brush Sep 2017 #113
That doesn't mean she was right NastyRiffraff Sep 2017 #186
He's trying to help the party... thesquanderer Sep 2017 #25
He's trying to help the party by publicly trashing it? mcar Sep 2017 #32
I don't see the quote in question as "trashing the party." (n/t) thesquanderer Sep 2017 #50
K mcar Sep 2017 #78
Agreed, but you won't hear a peep on that truth. They'd rather ignore common sense... brush Sep 2017 #114
Other folks bother me when they disrespect the values Sienna86 Sep 2017 #22
+1000 to that berni_mccoy Sep 2017 #26
Exactly who is disrespecting the values of the Democratic Party? boston bean Sep 2017 #33
People who question the Independent Senator from Vermont apparantly. SaschaHM Sep 2017 #41
i think that may be the only bar to reach. boston bean Sep 2017 #46
I Agree hueymahl Sep 2017 #182
You're damn right it is! NurseJackie Sep 2017 #34
I believe your definition of "disrespect" is off. white_wolf Sep 2017 #39
He has not done much of that? I could come up with at least a dozen things he's said, but since.... George II Sep 2017 #49
If he's still doing it, why would you have to go back to last year? thesquanderer Sep 2017 #52
Yesterday: "The current model of the Democratic Party obviously is not working", and he didn't.... George II Sep 2017 #58
Truth... thesquanderer Sep 2017 #102
Well, we gained seats in the Senate and House AND we "won" the presidency in 2016. How... George II Sep 2017 #104
The answer to your question... thesquanderer Sep 2017 #148
Once again, in 2016 we gained seats in the House and Senate. Obama wasn't a candidate in 2016. George II Sep 2017 #261
Whoops, messed up my years, sorry! thesquanderer Sep 2017 #269
We didn't win the presidency Cuthbert Allgood Sep 2017 #256
How about this? First google hit: George II Sep 2017 #106
That's basically the same quote as your last one. thesquanderer Sep 2017 #146
Sure Warren and Brown COULD have....But they are Democrats who would rather build the party than MrsCoffee Sep 2017 #163
So whether the message is or is not legitimate depends on the messenger? (n/t) thesquanderer Sep 2017 #204
No. MrsCoffee Sep 2017 #216
Except he's not a Democrat. Which really actually pisses me off. moriah Sep 2017 #68
Yeah he has EVERY right to criticize white_wolf Sep 2017 #85
Ummmm. You have missed the point in its totality. boston bean Sep 2017 #93
Let me see if I can explain a little more of what I meant. moriah Sep 2017 #99
Sorry. Skinner disagrees. PDittie Sep 2017 #159
Is it then that I don't have the right to criticize Bernie? moriah Sep 2017 #161
I won't alert your posts. PDittie Sep 2017 #174
And you're right about the age of that post. moriah Sep 2017 #164
Indeed (as to your first graf). PDittie Sep 2017 #176
Eh, juries, I've not even been really thinking about them. moriah Sep 2017 #178
Perhaps then you could explain the many Kamela Harris, Nancy Pelosi and Dianne Feinstein posts... Demsrule86 Sep 2017 #244
I can assure you that this Democrat would never vote for Genghis Kahn leftofcool Sep 2017 #123
So if Sanders had won the primary Cuthbert Allgood Sep 2017 #257
Yep DownriverDem Sep 2017 #273
Agreed. End of story. PERIOD. democratisphere Sep 2017 #44
The funny thing is I actually agree with SOME of Bernie's criticisms. PragmaticLiberal Sep 2017 #47
Like it or not, many believe Bernie is currently among those in the front seats. thesquanderer Sep 2017 #56
That's how she feels and that's fine. PragmaticLiberal Sep 2017 #76
Like moths to a flame. RandySF Sep 2017 #48
Why ask people to just ignore his attacks? boston bean Sep 2017 #53
Because he should be attacking lying, cheating repugs instead of his allies. brush Sep 2017 #117
Especially when that ... NanceGreggs Sep 2017 #55
Bernie could heal the sick, end starvation and poverty and yet CherokeeFiddle Sep 2017 #61
That sounds exactly like what happened here sheshe2 Sep 2017 #126
That is sad :( CherokeeFiddle Sep 2017 #139
It is sad. sheshe2 Sep 2017 #145
He was vilified all over this board, she mcar Sep 2017 #249
Yes he was mcar. sheshe2 Sep 2017 #271
I've been here since 2002 mcar Sep 2017 #280
Not really leftofcool Sep 2017 #127
All polls indicate otherwise CherokeeFiddle Sep 2017 #141
Example please? George II Sep 2017 #205
You know the polls. You've seen them CherokeeFiddle Sep 2017 #231
I didn't make a sweeping proclamation about polls, you did. George II Sep 2017 #236
And you've seen the polls CherokeeFiddle Sep 2017 #240
Some of the ones I've seen don't reach your conclusion. Ergo, not "all". George II Sep 2017 #241
I have not seen any who say that. Not a single one. CherokeeFiddle Sep 2017 #242
You clearly haven't seen them "all". George II Sep 2017 #312
Oh but I have! CherokeeFiddle Sep 2017 #314
Sorry, sheshe2 Sep 2017 #143
This is what I know: I know i James48 Sep 2017 #62
K&R! Tarheel_Dem Sep 2017 #66
Republicans are the party of non-dissent. marked50 Sep 2017 #69
Agree Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Sep 2017 #82
NO more Birnie unless it is current and newsworthy, PLEASE! BigmanPigman Sep 2017 #91
Me too shenmue Sep 2017 #92
Post removed Post removed Sep 2017 #94
My party is the Democratic Party. You? boston bean Sep 2017 #96
LOL, this thread backfired. KTM Sep 2017 #98
Is that your take?? It takes all kinds to make the workd go round they say. boston bean Sep 2017 #100
100+ recs, 200+ responses. Nice "backfire" BB. It think you made your point fairly strongly. George II Sep 2017 #208
LOL KTM Sep 2017 #252
Focus on common goals please. That's what we need common goals and hard work. mucifer Sep 2017 #105
When don't you believe it is correct to critisize Bernie Sanders ? CentralMass Sep 2017 #107
what??? boston bean Sep 2017 #110
You seem to find that it is correct to critize Sanders under any circumstances. CentralMass Sep 2017 #111
I do? boston bean Sep 2017 #112
Yes in my humble opinion you do. I'll say on my behalf that CentralMass Sep 2017 #118
Please let this stop. zentrum Sep 2017 #108
It's a strange place to be in ... NanceGreggs Sep 2017 #115
We had a real stolen election. You remember the reason this website was founded? boston bean Sep 2017 #119
Ah, yes ... NanceGreggs Sep 2017 #124
++++ sheshe2 Sep 2017 #129
"but you can't say a word against the NON-Democrat". And yet... TCJ70 Sep 2017 #134
Post removed Post removed Sep 2017 #157
You mean like the time he said the DNC was "worthless" under Debbie Wasserman Schultz? Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #116
Harry Reid is a democrat. boston bean Sep 2017 #121
One idea of criticism is that it should be judged on merit. dgauss Sep 2017 #149
isnt judging on merit itself, a form of criticism? Warren DeMontague Sep 2017 #150
Nah, it's as simple as this dgauss Sep 2017 #154
These attacks on Bernie.... Catch2.2 Sep 2017 #120
You really feel I bashed Bernie with this OP?? boston bean Sep 2017 #122
Fuuny, no one on DU had a problem attacking Hillary and her emails leftofcool Sep 2017 #125
Are you kidding?! Catch2.2 Sep 2017 #131
Do search of the archives leftofcool Sep 2017 #147
Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2017 #128
What inconvenient truth? Please be precise. boston bean Sep 2017 #130
Ya, cuz truth is so mysterious and destructive it can't be said. fleabiscuit Sep 2017 #137
Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2017 #138
This message was self-deleted by its author DesertRat Sep 2017 #140
Some serious cray-cray there. ucrdem Sep 2017 #152
K&R brer cat Sep 2017 #132
Take a chill pill Wordilocks Sep 2017 #133
Why should anyone object? Fair is fair, right? NurseJackie Sep 2017 #135
What do they fear? NurseJackie Sep 2017 #136
It's not a bash, and it's an important point. ucrdem Sep 2017 #151
We can't win elections based solely on reactionary politics CherokeeFiddle Sep 2017 #158
K&R Jamaal510 Sep 2017 #155
I am not OK with this.. disillusioned73 Sep 2017 #160
Apparently we are doing nothing wrong. Voltaire2 Sep 2017 #284
Post removed Post removed Sep 2017 #162
Goose-stepping? So you're saying Democrats are Nazis and fascists. betsuni Sep 2017 #183
Good grief. Comparing the Democratic Party (and its leadership) to goose-stepping Nazis? NurseJackie Sep 2017 #194
Did I Miss The Loyalty Oath, Or Something? ProfessorGAC Sep 2017 #165
Yes you missed something alright. boston bean Sep 2017 #166
"My Party"/"The Party" ProfessorGAC Sep 2017 #168
when something is put in quotes, that usually mean someone said it. boston bean Sep 2017 #169
Please re-read my post roomtomove Sep 2017 #172
are you professor GAC? that is who I am responding to roomtomove.. boston bean Sep 2017 #175
I agree with the OP Gothmog Sep 2017 #171
The term "Lemming" comes to mind. usaf-vet Sep 2017 #173
Been warned DownriverDem Sep 2017 #177
It's correct to defend your party, where it is defensible. Orsino Sep 2017 #180
And I believe it is correct to criticize the Clintons for destroying my Party. dogman Sep 2017 #181
This, unfortunately, is the painful truth. NT hueymahl Sep 2017 #184
The Clintons did not destroy anything, murielm99 Sep 2017 #272
Your Party, not mine? dogman Sep 2017 #277
All the usual propaganda words I expect murielm99 Sep 2017 #292
Study the history of Bill Clinton as Gov of Arkansas and Hillary's role there. dogman Sep 2017 #293
I have. murielm99 Sep 2017 #299
My credentials v. Hillary's. dogman Sep 2017 #308
I agree. Bernie is welccome to make proposals and work towards passage of bills he supports. Nitram Sep 2017 #185
A general view of the Democratic Party should be in order Fluke a Snooker Sep 2017 #187
Stirring the pot left-of-center2012 Sep 2017 #188
without his help in current media/news Republicans would have got rid of ACA by now. Sunlei Sep 2017 #189
Theres enough DINOs in the party. mwooldri Sep 2017 #192
Oh brother! Disrespects? KPN Sep 2017 #193
I don't goose step. Act_of_Reparation Sep 2017 #195
I completely agree with you. Jim Lane Sep 2017 #197
This primary has exposed fundamental confusion over what "THE PARTY" is. Act_of_Reparation Sep 2017 #200
"Every registered Democrat" More_Cowbell Sep 2017 #219
Please keep that in mind, every REGISTERED Democrat. George II Sep 2017 #221
Will do, George! Act_of_Reparation Sep 2017 #279
I am not a registered Democrat. My state does not register voters by party. The Velveteen Ocelot Sep 2017 #283
So democrats goose step? sick Eliot Rosewater Sep 2017 #215
What's the meaning of your expression "goose step", that's the second time it's been used... George II Sep 2017 #222
You are on the internet. Act_of_Reparation Sep 2017 #224
Using your suggestion, the first hit I get on google is this video. So can I safely conclude.... George II Sep 2017 #225
The only thing you can safely conclude is you don't know what a dictionary is. Act_of_Reparation Sep 2017 #227
Sorry, that's not the "only" thing that I can safely conclude. George II Sep 2017 #230
OH SNAP. Act_of_Reparation Sep 2017 #234
. George II Sep 2017 #238
Funny. When I Google "goose step" Cuthbert Allgood Sep 2017 #259
What part of calling Dems "goose steppers" is "critical self-reflection"? SunSeeker Sep 2017 #260
The part where I recognize my peers are not as awesome as I once thought they were. Act_of_Reparation Sep 2017 #282
You saw the first hit I got on google earlier today for "goose step", didn't you? George II Sep 2017 #286
That wasn't the first hit you got tkmorris Sep 2017 #294
You calling me a liar? George II Sep 2017 #296
Why would anyone say that? Act_of_Reparation Sep 2017 #309
So, in backing down from claiming I wasn't truthful you say I'm lazy, inept, or dishonest... George II Sep 2017 #310
You mean to say... Act_of_Reparation Sep 2017 #311
No, I mean to say what I said, thank you. George II Sep 2017 #313
Constructive criticism of the party is not the same as disrespect. n/t backscatter712 Sep 2017 #196
There is no such thing as constructive criticism ...all it does it drive voters away...especially Demsrule86 Sep 2017 #232
well at least you are honest about how you think the party ought to operate. Voltaire2 Sep 2017 #285
Go ahead. People who agree with support you and those who disagree won't. aikoaiko Sep 2017 #199
amen to you!! samnsara Sep 2017 #201
correct is a little strong, and if you never ever have harsh words for your party, then you aren't JCanete Sep 2017 #202
Some of his comments would violate DU guidelines. ehrnst Sep 2017 #203
This is why I think it needs to be looked into again. However, I would not like to see threads Demsrule86 Sep 2017 #245
wahhhhhhhhhhhhh snort Sep 2017 #207
Same back too you! Pauldg47 Sep 2017 #212
How does this post help DEMS win in 2018? RiverStone Sep 2017 #213
Damn Straight! Mountain Mule Sep 2017 #217
How does calling the party an absolute failure help unite us for 2018? MrsCoffee Sep 2017 #223
Maybe you haven't been paying attention tkmorris Sep 2017 #295
When people are not open to suggestion without getting defensive, chwaliszewski Sep 2017 #228
Great cartoon. Tobin S. Sep 2017 #239
I think that goes both ways. haveahart Sep 2017 #288
If the Dem establishment wants Bernie and progressives to get on board . . FairWinds Sep 2017 #246
Don't know how many elections it will take for them to figure this out. harun Sep 2017 #270
I am a progressive DownriverDem Sep 2017 #274
i'm on board with them too . .. FairWinds Sep 2017 #304
We need *ALL* the support we can get right now. Initech Sep 2017 #250
Did you say the same bout Hillary when she dissed the DNC under the guise of constructive criticism? InAbLuEsTaTe Sep 2017 #251
K & R SunSeeker Sep 2017 #253
I realize I'm new here, but how long is this going to go on? Cuthbert Allgood Sep 2017 #254
It seems like for some the primary never ended. lovemydogs Sep 2017 #263
That's pretty much where I stand, as well. hamsterjill Sep 2017 #258
I believe it is correct to criticize my party when it is being stupid lovemydogs Sep 2017 #262
Agreed. lancelyons Sep 2017 #264
K&R stonecutter357 Sep 2017 #267
Yes it is Progressive dog Sep 2017 #268
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD UT_democrat Sep 2017 #275
It is never going to end. Voltaire2 Sep 2017 #287
It's always okay to criticize Sanders here on the DU. nt hughee99 Sep 2017 #276
Agree 100% nt lillypaddle Sep 2017 #278
K&R. Well said, BB lunamagica Sep 2017 #281
It's my party too and most Democrats are with him on this. There is room for improvement. Quixote1818 Sep 2017 #289
The country has passed the party by... mudstump Sep 2017 #291
this view feeds the false progressive vs establishment dichotomy. JHan Sep 2017 #297
She was called "establishment" because her husband was once president. StevieM Sep 2017 #298
Yes and Stevie, I'll never get over it... JHan Sep 2017 #300
HRC was not actually someone who had long been liked by the establishment, whatever exactly that StevieM Sep 2017 #301
+++++++++ JHan Sep 2017 #302
That's very fair. egduj Sep 2017 #303
I'm with you. nt cwydro Sep 2017 #318

FBaggins

(26,681 posts)
235. It's also simple to understand...
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:10 PM
Sep 2017

That it's exactly the response that Republicans want us to have. One would have hoped that the OPer would feel constrained by that... but I guess not.

Goodness... they can't wait for us to have a dozen+ candidates with their own variations of this debate.

boston bean

(36,181 posts)
4. Here is a sample.
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:39 PM
Sep 2017

"Certainly there are some people in the Democratic Party who want to maintain the status quo, they would rather go down with the Titanic so long as they have first-class seats".

Exactly who is he referring to. And that was from this year 2017.

 

berni_mccoy

(23,018 posts)
10. There are three Democrats still in the House
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:45 PM
Sep 2017

Who voted against the original ACA and who have voted with the GOP to weaken or repeal it while Obama was in office.

boston bean

(36,181 posts)
12. Ummm. He said this in 2017 whem trump is president.
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:49 PM
Sep 2017

Who is he and you referring to be explicit/exact please.

 

berni_mccoy

(23,018 posts)
16. You're free to look it up yourself but it is a fact
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:50 PM
Sep 2017

There are still Dems in Congress who voted against Obamacare

boston bean

(36,181 posts)
18. Yeah. So. you and think he meant three lowly house member who in 2017 are not voting
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:52 PM
Sep 2017

Along with republicans to repeal aca???

LiberalLovinLug

(14,144 posts)
101. Only the American people are hurt.
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:20 PM
Sep 2017

So do you think that Sanders, who votes with the Democrats overwhelmingly, and takes leadership roles, and gets out the youth vote, is less valuable to the Democratic party than the Blue Dog DINOs that vote disturbingly often with the GOP? Who is a better Democrat party platform promoter?

Fla Dem

(23,239 posts)
170. These are criticisms that should be shared within the Democratic Party leadership.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:07 AM
Sep 2017

Not on national news/ talk shows or forums and speeches. When he does that he doesn't come across as a team player, but rather as someone who is saying look at me, look at how smart and insightful I am, the Dems are losers.

LiberalLovinLug

(14,144 posts)
220. But maybe he is right?
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 01:29 PM
Sep 2017

The thing is, he is valuable to them precisely because he is not beholden to the hive mentality. Someone that can see the forest for the trees. IMO Sanders IS smart and insightful. And as a prominent independent that votes with Democrats, he is in a unique position. And the fact is, Democrats have been 'losers' a lot lately. And the pattern of shutting out the left wing of the party and trying to out Republican the Republicans has been a colossal failure. So its only natural that his voice would be listened to now. That criticism is deserved and needed to find new ways to win.

The only time I hear accusations that its all about him and he is only interested in promoting himself to show "how smart and insightful" he is, is from those that don't like him and are projecting that onto him. Because you can say that about any leader throughout history. We only know about those leaders because they stepped up so the public could find out how "smart and insightful" they were. How else do they operate? If his exposure and what he says makes him popular....instead of criticizing that popularity, maybe, just maybe, what he is saying is important?

George II

(67,782 posts)
290. His "leadership role" is just about in name only.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 07:08 PM
Sep 2017

His function as Chairman of Committee Outreach is to communicate the views of the various Senate Democratic Committees to the other members of the Senate Democratic Caucus.

Eliot Rosewater

(31,087 posts)
211. But this is ridiculous, Bernie says that, attacks the D party and you say it is
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 12:52 PM
Sep 2017

OK to launch that attack because ONE PERCENT of the party thinks that way?

Absurd.

Ridiculous.

You really believe a couple of rogue democrats is why Bernie says these things? It is worth attacking the entire party as he has done here and with the recent attack about it being a failure, because two or three are wrong?

 

HarmonyRockets

(397 posts)
37. A $700 billion defense spending bill passed today.
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:11 PM
Sep 2017

90-7.

Only 4 Democrats voted no. And one independent.

Rural_Progressive

(1,105 posts)
142. No, Democrats should not vote
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 10:39 PM
Sep 2017

to line the pockets of the military industrial complex.

Shall we examine how Feinstein and her husband have become millionaires?

http://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=Richard_C._Blum_and_Dianne_Feinstein:_The_Power_Couple_of_California

I suspect that's the kind of thing Sanders was talking about.

Demsrule86

(68,217 posts)
237. You need money for a Senatorial campaign...there is nothing wrong with it...if you can't show
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:19 PM
Sep 2017

quid pro quo...it is meaningless...Consider this. The link is below. I am not saying Sen. Sander's did anything wrong; one needs money to run an election, but you are wrong to attack Sen. Feinstein in this manner for essentially the same thing...taking money in order to win election.

"A lavish Martha’s Vineyard Democratic fundraiser that Bernie Sanders attended in 2007 featured lobbyists for many of the industries he now rails against on the presidential campaign trail, according to a guest list obtained by MSNBC."

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/sanders-campaign-finance-purity-not-always-possible

boston bean

(36,181 posts)
83. We need specifics. Not just broad brushed insinuations and attacks.
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:42 PM
Sep 2017

I think this is a big part of the issue. None of this is backed up with facts or a valid reasoning. This stuff like the party is status quo, the party is corrupt etc and no one can back it up with FACTS.

People need to stop accepting these attacks as truth unless a true fact can be articulated in support of the attack.

boston bean

(36,181 posts)
88. hmmmmm. Votes are recorded as facts. Almost evry single democrat votes the same way so
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:50 PM
Sep 2017

They are corrupt?? Establishment?? Not real dems?? Please explain exactly how this works.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
89. American voters have huge support for the military and their representatives reflect that.
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:52 PM
Sep 2017

It's called getting elected, and Obamacare hurt the house and senate worse than any other issue. Yet you never hear about that part of what "Dems are doing wrong".

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
95. Bernie takes his F-16 money, same as the rest of them. Kuchinch of Dept of Peace fame....
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:03 PM
Sep 2017

Has turned out to be a nutter. And so it goes....

 

HarmonyRockets

(397 posts)
156. Look at polls from the last decade
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 03:31 AM
Sep 2017

A CNN poll just came out that said 58% of people are against an increase in military spending.

Yet it passes 90-7. An increase of $80 billion. To put that in perspective, that's almost twice as much as Bernie's free college program. Yet if he were to introduce that bill tomorrow, there would be 10 threads on this board by so called liberals going all out asking about how it would be funded.

And guess what they're going to be cutting to make up for the increase?

hueymahl

(2,403 posts)
179. THIS
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:54 AM
Sep 2017

Cuts to the heart of the issue.

Yet it passes 90-7. An increase of $80 billion. To put that in perspective, that's almost twice as much as Bernie's free college program. Yet if he were to introduce that bill tomorrow, there would be 10 threads on this board by so called liberals going all out asking about how it would be funded.


I'm all for party, but when you are party first, second and third, and then principles somewhere down the line, you have some serious soul searching to do.
 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
190. Yet Bernie takes his pork for his state for a reason.... you know that. What people want cut is ....
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 10:38 AM
Sep 2017

Other people's pork- not there own.

 

Plucketeer

(12,882 posts)
226. Oh yeah!
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 01:40 PM
Sep 2017

Bernie takes HIS pork. And we all know he fought for it with fervent fury. Damned Bernie - out there beating the drums for MORE military waste!
His constituents took the money because it's there - not because their senator fought for it. Now if his constituents had all protested their portion of the pork pie, they'd have petitioned Bernie to bring in some cash to support the maple syrup industry.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
255. I know people think this "15 Trilion Dollar Boondoggle" and waste of military spending is fine but..
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 03:17 PM
Sep 2017

You can't convince me they're not full of shut when theycall HRC a hawk and talk about cutting miltary spending. Leaf peeping and ice cream aren't enough to keep the lights on in Vt.

BainsBane

(52,999 posts)
307. Indeed they are
Wed Sep 20, 2017, 12:10 AM
Sep 2017

And so is Sander's, yet you speak as though his record is somehow superior. Does that mean you oppose the Brady Bill, waiting periods for gun purchases, and believe gun corporations must have civil liability so as to not have a their profits encumbered by pesky citizens concerned about their lives? Do you also approve of Sanders four votes opposing closing Gitmo, his votes against every immigration reform bill since the 90s, except the one the year before he announced for president? Do you support the Minutemen and the f-35? How about subsidies for big sugar? Your comment above about the defense bill today make me wonder if you have actually ever looked at Sanders voting record.
https://votesmart.org/candidate/key-votes/27110/bernie-sanders/22/defense#.WcHjVtFOmhA

I myself don't happen to agree than the profits of gun corporations should take precedence over human life, and I view gun policy in America as a form of genocide on urban populations. I dont believe that affluent white communities should send their toxic waste to poor brown communities, and I certainly don't think it appropriate to profit from such dumps.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eoin-higgins/what-about-sierra-blanca-bernie_b_9233818.html
I also don't think it appropriate for politicians to have off-shore trusts. https://vtdigger.org/2017/09/18/investigation-underway-police-stop-rabbi-gunpoint/#.WcEgINN97-Y
I happen to think govt officials should be transparent about their financial holdings so voters can be informed of any potential conflict of interest.

Voting records are indeed public. What is unfortunate is how few citizens look at or care about them, particularly those who put the careers of certain politics before principle, citizens, and intellectual integrity.

BainsBane

(52,999 posts)
305. That's quite an evolution
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:45 PM
Sep 2017

If by Independent you mean Sanders rather than King. It is fascinating what presidential aspirations do to one's voting record. https://votesmart.org/candidate/key-votes/27110/bernie-sanders/22/defense#.WcHjVtFOmhA

Does that mean he's going to stop backing the F-35? https://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/12/why-bernie-sanders-is-backing-a-15-trillion-military-boondoggle.html
If the govt could get some of those trillions of dollars back, we might be able to pay for some healthcare.

BainsBane

(52,999 posts)
266. Bernie has his share of questionable votes
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 04:23 PM
Sep 2017

on guns, the F-35, Gitmo, immigration, Gitmo, and a host of other things. Why is he exempt from the criticisms he hurls at others?

And how do votes by three Democrats justify attacks on the entirety of the party AND its voters?



delisen

(6,036 posts)
306. Bernie is the judge, Bernie is the jury...
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:54 PM
Sep 2017

He must not be questioned, his statement must not be discussed or evaluated, at least according to some of his presenter/followers.

To the extent that I consider myself a Democrat, when I listen to Senator Sanders on the Democratic Party, I am reminded of the time I put in at a particularly authoritarian religious school, and almost reflexively feel the urge lower my head and atone for my sins I am bad, bad, bad, and must mend my ways.

I never responded well to that approach as a child, and am unlikely to do so as I adult.

I actually don't think Sanders can help making his negative comments. I have begun to see him as a type of revivalist preacher.

I think it would have been great if he had warned us about McConnell's machinations in his latest attempt to destroy heath care coverage for millions. Instead he focused on rolling out his Medicare for All plan.

I really should not expect Senator Sanders to alert me. He marches to his own drummer, has his own priorities and ambitions. I think I need to keep my attention focused on the Republican attempts to harm us.










Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
191. Sorry, that is intentionally, unfairly trashing an entire party.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 10:42 AM
Sep 2017

A fair statement would be that in both major parties, some people would let the ship go down, as long as they had 1st class seats.

But he targeted it to only one side, and unfairly accused everyone in that party of doing that or being complicit. That's not a fair statement. That's an attack, no matter how you look at it. There's only one reason to make such a general attack against a party: to harm that party, the entire party, and only that party.

m-lekktor

(3,675 posts)
21. That's the TRUTH and smart people who are being honest and not in denial KNOW it.
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:56 PM
Sep 2017

The DEMS have suffered massive electoral losses in all aspects of government, nationally and locally and to claim everything is just fine is laughable!

 

lancelyons

(988 posts)
265. also.... "The current model of the Democratic Party obviously is not working"
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 04:19 PM
Sep 2017

that is another insult to the democratic party.

I just read that he isnt going to run as a democrat in his 2018 senate run....He is going back to running as independent.

CrispyQ

(36,112 posts)
233. He said the democratic model isn't working.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:07 PM
Sep 2017

Even though the repubs control all three branches of the federal govt & a majority of state govts, they are POd at his statement. Sure, the GOP lied and cheated and stole their way into power, but for being the supposed smart party, the dems sure got played.

George II

(67,782 posts)
38. Well, just yesterday he said:
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:12 PM
Sep 2017

"The Current Model of the Democratic Party Obviously Is Not Working".

The "current model" is based on the most recent Party Platform, written last year. He lays claim to helping to change the platform to include his ideas and policies.

So, he helped form the "current model", and now he's claiming it's not working. So why doesn't HE take at least partial responsibility for the model that's not working?

 

CherokeeFiddle

(297 posts)
59. Wait though
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:27 PM
Sep 2017

why should Bernie take responsibility? I thought he wasn't a Democrat?

In all honesty though, is the model working? We have lost over 1100 seats, under what model of anything is that considered a success?

DownriverDem

(6,187 posts)
87. Don't forget
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:47 PM
Sep 2017

Gerrymandered districts helped those losses. Remember 2010? Many repubs won control of many states that election. They drew the lines. The Dems got screwed.

Eliot Rosewater

(31,087 posts)
210. So he can attack and attack but takes no responsibility?
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 12:31 PM
Sep 2017

Why we lost seats has more to do with gerrymandering than anything else, I shouldnt have to say that on a LIBERAL or DEMOCRATIC site, I shouldnt be reading something here that makes me say that...

 

CherokeeFiddle

(297 posts)
229. It was a joke
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:02 PM
Sep 2017

and as far as gerrymandering having to do with it more than than anything else, I will disagree and I will cite you this as my source why I say this. Does gerrymandering play a part? Sure but there is a lot more to it than that.

mcar

(42,179 posts)
19. We've got a sociopath in the WH
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 07:52 PM
Sep 2017

And a majority in Congress that is about to vote, again, to kill people.

I really wish Senator Sanders would direct his ire in their direction and actually work to help the party with which he caucuses, rather then tearing it down.

TCJ70

(4,387 posts)
24. Done and done:
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:02 PM
Sep 2017



https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/7/16069112/bernie-sanders-obamacare-trumpcare

“Bernie has repeated to us over and over and over again, ‘Our top priority is doing everything in our power to make sure 20 million people don’t lose their health care,’” said Ari Rabin-Havt, a senior adviser to Sanders.


As the debate over the Senate Republican bill stretched from one month to four, and then from four months to seven, Sanders resisted the temptation to make his whirlwind tour across the country primarily about single-payer health care.

“Throughout this whole thing, there was always the temptation to pivot to make a stronger case for Medicare-for-all, rather than keeping the ACA at the center of our focus,” one aide recalled. “Bernie always insisted to us: ‘No, no, no.’”


Sanders has been a team player.

mcar

(42,179 posts)
27. I knew I'd get this response
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:06 PM
Sep 2017

Yes, he said this and good on him. But what gets the most attention? His constant attacks on the Democratic Party.

My suggestion is he ease off on that and focus more on his good criticism of the current regime.

George II

(67,782 posts)
43. But if you cut out what she said before and what she said after that "leadership" quote...
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:15 PM
Sep 2017

...and just look at the selected 30 seconds, she said he's the leader.

 

berni_mccoy

(23,018 posts)
63. Oh she said his name alright. Said it first when asked "Who's the leader of the Democratic party"
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:30 PM
Sep 2017

And she talked about him the most. Like it or not, he's the heart of the party.

 

berni_mccoy

(23,018 posts)
70. I don't need to. I already posted on this earlier.
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:33 PM
Sep 2017

Tell me if you think I'm wrong, whose name did she say before his?

boston bean

(36,181 posts)
72. I just told you why i think you are wrong. Can you respond to that? It is not at odds with her
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:36 PM
Sep 2017

saying a name or what name was said first.

 

berni_mccoy

(23,018 posts)
75. You have ZERO facts to back up what you say
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:37 PM
Sep 2017

And when presented with facts that counter what you say you ignore them.

It is useless to argue with you so fare thee well friend.

brush

(53,331 posts)
113. Whatever Gillibrand said she's not the arbiter of who is leader of our party.
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:44 PM
Sep 2017

Our members decide that, along with congresspersons (all of them not just her) and party officials.

It's ridiculous and absurd to be arguing that a non-Democrat is "the" leader of the Democratic Party.

He caucuses with us and that's fine. He's given some leadership responsibilities to, frankly, keep him and his supporters happy.

It's sorta of a "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" deal. (we get to use you like you used us to run under the Democratic Party banner}.

NastyRiffraff

(12,448 posts)
186. That doesn't mean she was right
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 10:28 AM
Sep 2017

I know what she said and I strongly disagree with her. Bernie is no leader of anything, especially the Democratic Party. (Yes, I know that's heresy and I should be burned at the stake!)

thesquanderer

(11,937 posts)
25. He's trying to help the party...
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:03 PM
Sep 2017

...by telling them to stop doing the same thing that has already cost them the House, the Senate, the Presidency, and a bunch of Governorships.

mcar

(42,179 posts)
32. He's trying to help the party by publicly trashing it?
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:08 PM
Sep 2017

Surely, he's more media savvy than that. MSM likes nothing more than their silly "Democrats in Disarray" meme. Surely, Sanders knows better than to perpetuate it.

There are ways to improve the party that don't involve publicly trashing it. Again, the good senator surely knows that.

brush

(53,331 posts)
114. Agreed, but you won't hear a peep on that truth. They'd rather ignore common sense...
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:48 PM
Sep 2017

and keep on saying he's trying to help the party — helping the party by trashing it is certainly a "different" approach.

white_wolf

(6,238 posts)
39. I believe your definition of "disrespect" is off.
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:12 PM
Sep 2017

Sanders, like all of us, has every right to criticize the Democratic Party not that he has done much of that. I swear I'm so sick of these posts here. Keep fighting Sanders. The GOP and Trump appreciate it.

George II

(67,782 posts)
49. He has not done much of that? I could come up with at least a dozen things he's said, but since....
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:19 PM
Sep 2017

....they occurred last year, in order to comply with the TOS, I can't. And he's still doing it.

thesquanderer

(11,937 posts)
52. If he's still doing it, why would you have to go back to last year?
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:23 PM
Sep 2017

Do you have an example from 2017, i.e. that "he's still doing it"?

George II

(67,782 posts)
58. Yesterday: "The current model of the Democratic Party obviously is not working", and he didn't....
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:26 PM
Sep 2017

....stop at that.

Plus, Nina Turner said this summer that she and he would be open to endorsing republicans in future elections.

thesquanderer

(11,937 posts)
102. Truth...
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:20 PM
Sep 2017

If we've lost the House, Senate, Presidency, and so many Governorships, then I think "The current model of the Democratic Party obviously is not working" is a fair criticism. I know, you say he didn't stop there, but maybe you stopped too soon, because you didn't include anything objectionable, at least IMO.

As for Nina Turner, last I checked, she was not Bernie Sanders. If you have to reach to other people to "prove" that Sanders is saying he shouldn't, then I guess it wasn't so easy to actually find Sanders saying things he shouldn't.

George II

(67,782 posts)
104. Well, we gained seats in the Senate and House AND we "won" the presidency in 2016. How...
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:31 PM
Sep 2017

...did that happen?

I won't get too deeply into what Sanders has said, even during the general election campaign. Don't need alerts and removed posts.

Fact is, he DID criticize the party yesterday despite us GAINING seats in 2016.

Nina Turner is his chosen President of "Our Revolution", his organization, and she claims to speak for him.

thesquanderer

(11,937 posts)
148. The answer to your question...
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 11:02 PM
Sep 2017

...is that Obama was a transformational candidate. You can't count on always having that. I think the DNC was stronger under Dean than under Obama's Wasserman, though.

thesquanderer

(11,937 posts)
269. Whoops, messed up my years, sorry!
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 04:25 PM
Sep 2017

2016 congress is a complicated conversation. Yes, we picked up seats, though I would not say that we did well. So in a classic glass half empty vs half full scenario, you could either say our gains in 2016 are evidence that the Dem party is on the right track or that our limited gains in 2016 (considering what was available in competitive races) are evidence that we need some changes. I guess I would just suggest this question: Looking at the bigger picture, are you happy with the progress of the Democratic party over the last 20 years?

Cuthbert Allgood

(4,839 posts)
256. We didn't win the presidency
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 03:19 PM
Sep 2017

You may not like the electoral college, but thems the rules. We knew that going in.

thesquanderer

(11,937 posts)
146. That's basically the same quote as your last one.
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 10:59 PM
Sep 2017

The newspaper gave it a sensationalistic headline, but it's the same thing he said before. Let's just stick with Sanders' words. Not someone editorializing about what he said (in a headline or otherwise). Not the words of someone else who claims to speak for him (if indeed Nina Turner has claimed that as you suggest, I don't know). Just *his* words. And this article had basically the same thing you already provided i.e.:

“The current model and the current strategy of the Democratic party is an absolute failure,” Sanders said.

“The Democratic party needs fundamental change. What it needs is to open up its doors to working people, and young people, and older people who are prepared to fight for social and economic justice.

“The Democratic party must understand what side it is on. And that cannot be the side of Wall Street, or the fossil fuel industry, or the drug companies.”


Dems like Elizabeth Warren and Sherrod Brown could have given very much the same speech, IMO. Certainly that last paragraph. Sanders may be more dramatic in his delivery, but the point is the same.

MrsCoffee

(5,801 posts)
163. Sure Warren and Brown COULD have....But they are Democrats who would rather build the party than
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 08:53 AM
Sep 2017

divide it. I guess that's why they joined the party.

MrsCoffee

(5,801 posts)
216. No.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 01:26 PM
Sep 2017

I'm saying that neither Warren nor Brown are going to go with a message of attacking the Democratic Party right now. They have similar messages about wall street etc, but they aren't engaged in circular firing squads.

moriah

(8,311 posts)
68. Except he's not a Democrat. Which really actually pisses me off.
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:33 PM
Sep 2017

He shouldn't have run in our fucking primary if he wasn't going to keep his word to work from within it to change it.

Instead, he's continuing to tout his "Independent" label and use it to divide the Party further, when it's the last thing we need right now. You can be a vocal voice for change within the Party, and that's what he said he was going to do. He's not taken even the token step of putting a D beside his name. He only did it when it was convenient, when he wanted to make a Presidential bid.

Until he does that, no, he isn't like "all of us", nor does he have the same right to criticize.

white_wolf

(6,238 posts)
85. Yeah he has EVERY right to criticize
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:45 PM
Sep 2017

By your logic, no one but Republicans have the right to criticize the GOP. Sorry, but the Democratic Party is FAR from perfect and frankly some of the posts on here are creepy. I've come to suspect that some DUers would vote for Genghis Khan over Sanders provided Khan made sure to run as Dem.

moriah

(8,311 posts)
99. Let me see if I can explain a little more of what I meant.
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:11 PM
Sep 2017

This forum is called Democratic Underground.

When you say, "All of us", that suggests internal criticism, which is extremely healthy indeed. It's why we have primaries, why we work to build a platform. We have flaws and must find ways to work with everyone in our big tent. We will have our squabbles, because it is a big tent. But the ideal is unity and trying to get the best for everyone in our big tent, including the little groups within it.

If that's what I truly perceived Bernie to be doing -- making the criticisms, but from inside, with the goal to strengthen the party -- I would have few issues. But he sadly is pushing a division in the party of addressing economic vs social justice, when we should be focusing on both. And even if it wasn't his intent to do so, that's what his candidacy did.

And we can't make the false assumption that social justice will come when we have economic justice. (If we all drove the same car maybe, but we know that's not what Bernie or anyone supporting him means by economic justice) But since rich black men are still pulled over and harassed on the presumption they stole the nice vehicle, obviously just having the trappings of wealth doesn't negate the social paradigm we have to address as well.

They both must be worked for together, and we must work together as a Party to get the best for everyone.

----

There's a big difference between the right "all of us" have to criticize our Democratic candidates -- where our criticism is for the health of the party -- and the rights of outsiders to trash it and cause division.

We of course are all Americans and can say whatever the hell we want. But that's what I meant by "the same right as all of us". Us Democrats.

If you really can't see the distinction, perhaps this isn't your home. And I'm sorry for that, because you've been with us awhile.

PDittie

(8,322 posts)
159. Sorry. Skinner disagrees.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 08:31 AM
Sep 2017
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1251774376#post3

Long exchange there, two years old. I can't find a revision to the founder's thinking anywhere, so if you can, please post it and I'll sit corrected.

Until that time ... it seems clear that you are misinterpreting the terms of service.

moriah

(8,311 posts)
161. Is it then that I don't have the right to criticize Bernie?
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 08:38 AM
Sep 2017

Because if TOS says I'm not allowed to say I really AM pissed that Bernie let people lie for him to say hed'd be putting the I aside, then you better alert on both of my posts.

And fast.

PDittie

(8,322 posts)
174. I won't alert your posts.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:31 AM
Sep 2017

I think that would contribute to the ongoing disruption of this forum.

moriah

(8,311 posts)
164. And you're right about the age of that post.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:00 AM
Sep 2017

For more history, you'll understand I hope that DU has had several long-standing rules that could get posts removed if you posted supporting independents OTHER than Bernie when a Democratic candidate was running in the same election, because he effectively had made it where no Democratic candidate could win VT but caucused with us.

You could promote a Green running against a Republican only, but not if the Democratic Party was also fielding a candidate in that election.

And also, we are supposed to be reasonably respectful when speaking of him, as we would of others we perceive to be "on the same side". And I do think Bernie is on the same side -- I just strongly disagree with his tactics being what we need when we have a divided Party and Republican majorities in government.

PDittie

(8,322 posts)
176. Indeed (as to your first graf).
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:39 AM
Sep 2017

But several members have the same sincere misunderstanding as you re: Sanders being a Democrat or not, and have applied same in the jury system.

That's probably all I can say without having this post hidden because of this, from the TOS:


Don't interfere with forum moderation
Don't post messages about site rules, enforcement, juries, hosts, administration, alerts, alerters, removed posts, appeals, locked threads, or anything else related to how this website is moderated (except in the Ask the Administrators forum).

Why we have this rule: The purpose of Democratic Underground is to discuss politics, issues, and current events. Open discussion of how the website is run tends to distract from our core purpose.



moriah

(8,311 posts)
178. Eh, juries, I've not even been really thinking about them.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:50 AM
Sep 2017

But I do still misunderstand why YOU seem to think I have a "sincere misunderstanding" of Sander's party status.

Despite letting Weaver promise for him that he would remain part of the Democratic party even if he lost, he continues to self-identify with the Independent label -- even on the "DNC Unity Tour".

For posts on this forum, supporting his efforts is allowed and making attacks vs criticism is not.

That's not because of his official Party affiliation, but was a special rule for him long before he made a bid for the Presidency because even though Dems still ran in VT, their candidate was likely to lose. And remains because he accepted money from the DNC for his Senate bid and has, for the most part, caucused with the Democratic Party.

I think I have a very clear understanding of both his actual party affiliation and how he has been treated by DU TOS since practically the beginning of time.

Demsrule86

(68,217 posts)
244. Perhaps then you could explain the many Kamela Harris, Nancy Pelosi and Dianne Feinstein posts...
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:26 PM
Sep 2017

some criticism is permitted apparently of Democrats...Sen. Sanders is not subject to different rules.

leftofcool

(19,460 posts)
123. I can assure you that this Democrat would never vote for Genghis Kahn
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:59 PM
Sep 2017

I can also assure you that I would never vote for anyone who was not a registered Democrat.

PragmaticLiberal

(904 posts)
47. The funny thing is I actually agree with SOME of Bernie's criticisms.
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:18 PM
Sep 2017

But with that being said, I agree with you as well.

I'm not a fan of "backseat drivers".


RandySF

(57,194 posts)
48. Like moths to a flame.
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:18 PM
Sep 2017

The earth would open up and swallow Pittsburg but we'd be too busy swarming over Bernie threads.

boston bean

(36,181 posts)
53. Why ask people to just ignore his attacks?
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:25 PM
Sep 2017

Why are people more offended about the response to the attack than they are offended by the attack?

brush

(53,331 posts)
117. Because he should be attacking lying, cheating repugs instead of his allies.
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:53 PM
Sep 2017

If he wants to critique the party there's a way of doing it interally instead whenever someone sticks a mic in his face.

A certain independent senator is too fucking eager to do that.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
55. Especially when that ...
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:26 PM
Sep 2017

... independent democratic socialist only ran as a Democrat in order to use the Party's resources to further his personal political ambitions, and then dropped the (D) designation the minute it no longer served his purposes.

 

CherokeeFiddle

(297 posts)
61. Bernie could heal the sick, end starvation and poverty and yet
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:29 PM
Sep 2017

somebody somewhere will be upset about something about Bernie. Sigh...

sheshe2

(83,138 posts)
126. That sounds exactly like what happened here
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 10:06 PM
Sep 2017

to President Barack Hussein Obama our Democratic President that was loved by many, yet hated by a few. He was vilified.

mcar

(42,179 posts)
249. He was vilified all over this board, she
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:49 PM
Sep 2017

And those of us who supported him were mocked and ridiculed. I won't forget.

sheshe2

(83,138 posts)
271. Yes he was mcar.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 04:49 PM
Sep 2017

I arrived here a month before the 2012 election.

I am grateful that we had the BOG back then...never would have survived without it.

 

CherokeeFiddle

(297 posts)
240. And you've seen the polls
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:21 PM
Sep 2017

I'm not going to get into a dance with people who refuse to believe things, and no matter what, nothing will be good enough for them.

sheshe2

(83,138 posts)
143. Sorry,
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 10:40 PM
Sep 2017

My opinion, he was vilified and many that did that are long gone. Willy and Manny come to mind along with the POSUCS, Pitt.

James48

(4,412 posts)
62. This is what I know: I know i
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:29 PM
Sep 2017

I know that Bernie inspires me, as he also inspires millions of Americans to think big.

I know that he is correct is saying that Dems need to welcome people with diverse views into the party.

I am a gun owning, pro-life Union leader Democrat. I voted for Bernie, and then I voted for Hillary.

I WANT my country to be better- and it is going to take millions to become inspired to make it happen.

It's going to take Bernie types, and Hillary types, and young people, and old people, and a wide range of Americans in order to make change happen.

God bless all leaders in OUR party.

marked50

(1,348 posts)
69. Republicans are the party of non-dissent.
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 08:33 PM
Sep 2017

I am glad that the Democrats are known for their ability to look at all sides and inputs from all sources-painful as it may be. Intolerance is Republican- Tolerance is Democrat

Response to boston bean (Original post)

 

KTM

(1,823 posts)
98. LOL, this thread backfired.
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:10 PM
Sep 2017

"My party right or wrong" works for one party but it's not ours, and I am happy about that.

mucifer

(23,324 posts)
105. Focus on common goals please. That's what we need common goals and hard work.
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:32 PM
Sep 2017

it's not about the party. It's about the people. It's about everyone.

They want us attacking each other and it seems to be working.

CentralMass

(15,265 posts)
118. Yes in my humble opinion you do. I'll say on my behalf that
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:53 PM
Sep 2017

there ave been many things that I have disagreed with the party on or with individual politicians on. I voice my opinion and vote accordingly. Not doing so would make me (imo) a sycophant.

If you don't stand for what you believe in then get what you deserve.

I think many of Bernie's ideas are very popular among Democrats and I think thst some of his criticisms are well founded.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
115. It's a strange place to be in ...
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:49 PM
Sep 2017

... a "Democratic-supporting website" where you're free to criticize ANY Democrat, but you can't say a word against the NON-Democrat who thinks he should be running the party he refuses to be a member of.

Posting ad nauseam about how Hillary screwed-up her campaign and lost the election is fine - but mentioning what Bernie has said after the election is "re-fighting the primaries".

I've been here so long, I still remember when supporting Democrats was what DU was all about. Who knew that it would devolve into a site where a self-proclaimed non-Democrat would be given special status, immune from any criticism whatsoever - forever and ever, amen - no matter much he denigrates the Democratic Party - the very party this site was founded to support, and defend against all outsiders who disparaged it.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
124. Ah, yes ...
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:59 PM
Sep 2017

... I remember it well.

Seems like a million years ago now, when you realize how far this site has strayed from its original purpose.

Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #115)

boston bean

(36,181 posts)
121. Harry Reid is a democrat.
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:58 PM
Sep 2017

And he didn't and hasn't gone on a book tour tearing the party apart with insults and attacks.

dgauss

(878 posts)
149. One idea of criticism is that it should be judged on merit.
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 11:04 PM
Sep 2017

If the criticism is uncomfortable, another idea is to judge the legitimacy of that criticism based on a lettering system.

Catch2.2

(629 posts)
120. These attacks on Bernie....
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 09:58 PM
Sep 2017

are starting to be like the attacks about Hilary's emails!

Enough with the Bernie bashing!!!

leftofcool

(19,460 posts)
125. Fuuny, no one on DU had a problem attacking Hillary and her emails
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 10:02 PM
Sep 2017

They had no problem attacking the Clinton Foundation. They had no problem attacking Hillary for her speeches to bankers which by the way were all about her experiences as SoS. They had no problem calling her vile names, so you might want to think again about what you see as attacks on Sanders.

Catch2.2

(629 posts)
131. Are you kidding?!
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 10:17 PM
Sep 2017

No one on DU had a problem attacking Hilary and her emails??? Are you serious or joking? I had a problem with it like most people, including Bernie supporters. They had no problem calling her vile names???...What are you talking about? The only people that had no problem were right wingers. You can try and connect it to Bernie Sanders supporters, but that is simply false.

Response to boston bean (Original post)

Response to boston bean (Reply #130)

Response to Name removed (Reply #138)

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
152. Some serious cray-cray there.
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 11:17 PM
Sep 2017

Disappeared in the middle of a jury. Let's just say it was an easy decision.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
151. It's not a bash, and it's an important point.
Mon Sep 18, 2017, 11:11 PM
Sep 2017

The ACA is in serious jeopardy and his everything-and-nothing plan is a deceptive distraction. We need to keep focused on the real issue and MFA isn't that. It's not like we haven't been down this road before and where has it left us? No TPP, no Paris agreement, nuclear brinkmanship with tiny NK, you name it. And if the ACA goes Social Security and Medicare will soon follow.

Response to boston bean (Original post)

betsuni

(25,062 posts)
183. Goose-stepping? So you're saying Democrats are Nazis and fascists.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 10:02 AM
Sep 2017

This is a forum for Democrats. You're kidding, right?

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
194. Good grief. Comparing the Democratic Party (and its leadership) to goose-stepping Nazis?
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:12 AM
Sep 2017

That's offensive. Stop it!

boston bean

(36,181 posts)
169. when something is put in quotes, that usually mean someone said it.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:06 AM
Sep 2017

In this case it was not said.

LOL...

usaf-vet

(6,070 posts)
173. The term "Lemming" comes to mind.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:29 AM
Sep 2017

Republicans have the House, Senate, White House, SCOTUS, media advantage (radio talk), Citizen United, majority of state Governorships and legislative bodies.

Maybe the party needs a direction change.

DownriverDem

(6,187 posts)
177. Been warned
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:47 AM
Sep 2017

I like Bernie's ideas. I want him to join the Dem Party sooner rather than later to avoid the mess of the 2016 election, if he wants to run again. That's pretty much it. For this I got a warning email that I broke the rules. I will never understand this thinking.

Orsino

(37,428 posts)
180. It's correct to defend your party, where it is defensible.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:56 AM
Sep 2017

Criticizing Sanders requires no permission.

dogman

(6,073 posts)
181. And I believe it is correct to criticize the Clintons for destroying my Party.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 09:56 AM
Sep 2017

They were outmaneuvered by the lowest of the low.
End of story.

murielm99

(30,617 posts)
272. The Clintons did not destroy anything,
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 05:19 PM
Sep 2017

certainly not what you call "your" party.

Hillary won the popular vote. There is more activism and more Democrats are running for office than ever.

The lowest of the low? The election was stolen by the Russians, gerrymandering, stolen votes, the biased media, Comey and a variety of other factors.

HRC was up against a barrage of barriers to her victory. I am sure you would be here criticizing her even if she had taken office.

BTW, this is MY party. I will criticize anyone who disparages it, uses it for personal gain or says unjustified things ... ESPECIALLY if they are an outsider to the party.

dogman

(6,073 posts)
277. Your Party, not mine?
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 05:33 PM
Sep 2017

I am a retired Union member who watched the Clintons push Unions out the door with their centrism and third way DLC bullshit. You can disparage whomever you want, my point is, so will I. BTW, in spite of my dissatisfaction with their methods, I have voted for them in all national general elections.

murielm99

(30,617 posts)
292. All the usual propaganda words I expect
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 07:16 PM
Sep 2017

to hear from the fringe left. Centrism. Third way. DLC. I am glad that though you make a lot of noise online, there are actually very few of you IRL.

LOL.

Hillary was not involved in any third way activities,. This is a bullshit accusation. The DLC has not existed for years.

Yes, it is my party. It is a big tent. You can try to shove your credentials down our throats all you want. You are still unjustified in your criticisms of the Clintons.

BS is the one trying to tear our party apart, and it is not the first time. He wanted to primary Obama. He is not a Democrat, and he is divisive.

dogman

(6,073 posts)
293. Study the history of Bill Clinton as Gov of Arkansas and Hillary's role there.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 07:55 PM
Sep 2017

Reject voters at our peril, that is how we ended up with T-rump. Arrogance was a key to her loss, keep it up.

dogman

(6,073 posts)
308. My credentials v. Hillary's.
Wed Sep 20, 2017, 01:06 AM
Sep 2017

I was handbilling for Democrats in my county at the age of 10, before Hillary was even a young Republican. She is an interloper in my Party. She helped Bill, after he was failing as a politician in Arkansas, by building a bridge to the GOP. She may be a successful politician but to me she is a newcomer and helped surrender our Party to 3rd way schemes. Bernie has brought a new generation to activism in politics. Bernie is more of a Democrat in his views than she could ever be. That being said, she is not my enemy, I will not surrender to the GOP to advance my career, nor has Bernie.

Nitram

(22,614 posts)
185. I agree. Bernie is welccome to make proposals and work towards passage of bills he supports.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 10:26 AM
Sep 2017

But cut the negative stuff. The GOP handles that quite well already.

 

Fluke a Snooker

(404 posts)
187. A general view of the Democratic Party should be in order
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 10:32 AM
Sep 2017

A general view of the party itself would indicate where we go not just as a party as it exists today, but what the Democratic Party should do to advance society in the future. To that end, the Democratic Party represents to me the following:

1. Transformation of oppressive capitalism to progressive socialism
2. Transformation from restrictive states rights to national progressive policies
3. Transfer of wealth from mostly white elites to all people on an equal basis
4. Elimination of private property to that of progressive community control and allocation
5. Elimination of all fossil, thermal, and nuclear fuels
6. Universal health care
7. Elevation of women and minorities in all areas, including the demotion of men and whites to accommodate this necessary process
8. Acknowledgement of all wrongs with appropriate reparations in perpetuity as mandated

THIS is the way I see the Democratic Party advancing.

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
189. without his help in current media/news Republicans would have got rid of ACA by now.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 10:33 AM
Sep 2017

unfortunately he's only one person spend most time on health care.

other Ds currently elected work hard too on several issues like the give away of Americans public lands. unfortunately several bills Republicans just won by a very slim 20 votes?

midterms most are up for re-election, Republicans will love any help from "Ds" to get rid of Bernie. He always votes with D-party.

mwooldri

(10,291 posts)
192. Theres enough DINOs in the party.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 10:45 AM
Sep 2017

So when we have a Democrat in all but name come along...

Then the Democratic Party needs to take note and act according to Democratic party values.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,104 posts)
195. I don't goose step.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:15 AM
Sep 2017

Republicans do it. I don't like when they do that.

I don't like it when greens do it.

I don't like it when libertarians do it.

I don't like it when independent democratic socialists do it.

End of story.


Growing up in the Bush years, what most visibly separated Democrats from Republicans was the capacity for critical self-reflection. So, I guess we're done with that now?

 

Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)
197. I completely agree with you.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:25 AM
Sep 2017

In fact, I believe it is correct to criticize ******* when she *********** *** *****, although this is not a forum where I can state that view.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,104 posts)
200. This primary has exposed fundamental confusion over what "THE PARTY" is.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:33 AM
Sep 2017

The party is not Hillary Clinton. It's not Elizabeth Warren. It's not Chuck Schumer or Nancy Pelosi. The party is us. You. Me. Every registered Democrat. The people sitting in office are not our leaders. They're our employees. And like any good employer we should be constantly evaluating their performance.

Lately, though, things have been hunky dory. People don't want efficacious politicians. They want celebrities, surrogate parents, and saints. And none of them seem to realize this obsession with media figures is partly what put Trump in the White House to begin with.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,070 posts)
283. I am not a registered Democrat. My state does not register voters by party.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 05:54 PM
Sep 2017

I consider myself a Democrat because I support the party's platform and I vote for Democrats. My state is not the only state that does not have party-based voter registration. Are all the people in those states - there are 22 of them, in fact - who consider themselves Democrats and vote for them not really Democrats because they aren't registered Democrats?

George II

(67,782 posts)
222. What's the meaning of your expression "goose step", that's the second time it's been used...
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 01:32 PM
Sep 2017

...in this discussion.

George II

(67,782 posts)
225. Using your suggestion, the first hit I get on google is this video. So can I safely conclude....
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 01:38 PM
Sep 2017

....that by you saying "I don't goose step" you're equating the Democratic Party with the National Socialist Party of 1930s Germany?

Act_of_Reparation

(9,104 posts)
227. The only thing you can safely conclude is you don't know what a dictionary is.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 01:45 PM
Sep 2017

Hint: Google is not a dictionary.

Additional hint: Dictionary.com is a dictionary. It's easy to remember because its name is what it is. Neat, right?

Cuthbert Allgood

(4,839 posts)
259. Funny. When I Google "goose step"
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 03:28 PM
Sep 2017

the first thing I get is a definition. The link right under that is the Wikipedia link. Weird that yours is so different.

SunSeeker

(51,302 posts)
260. What part of calling Dems "goose steppers" is "critical self-reflection"?
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 03:33 PM
Sep 2017

Your reference is pure disrespect to Dems. It is not constructive criticism. It is shameful. Calling Dems who do not want others disrespecting their party Nazis is outrageous. EVERYONE deserves respect. That is very difference from saying you can't criticize someone. Nowhere in the OP is she saying no one should criticize the Democratic Party.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,104 posts)
282. The part where I recognize my peers are not as awesome as I once thought they were.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 05:50 PM
Sep 2017

That they treat their political party like it's a fucking social club instead of a means to an end. As is enshrined perfectly by your insipid response.

I mean, really. Nazis? Where in the galloping fuck do the Nazis come into this?

tkmorris

(11,138 posts)
294. That wasn't the first hit you got
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 08:38 PM
Sep 2017

Since that claim is DEMONSTRABLY false, how much weight does anything else you write merit?

Act_of_Reparation

(9,104 posts)
309. Why would anyone say that?
Wed Sep 20, 2017, 09:24 AM
Sep 2017
Google results for "goose step".

Result #1: A dictionary definition of the term.

Result #2: A Wikipedia article describing goose stepping, its history, and a long list of not-Nazi countries currently employing it.

Result #3: A video of the SS marching.


So, yeah. Nazis are the first thing that pops up... if you ignore the other two items that pop up first.

And not that it is especially relevant. Goose stepping originated nearly two centuries before Nazis, was in common use by the German military before the Nazis took over, and remains in common use today by non-Nazi countries. The order in which Google results appear does not change that. To search for this term and conclude by virtue of a 30 second YouTube clip that goose stepping is the purview of Nazis is evidence only of one's failure to verify this conclusion with other, perhaps more in depth references. Whether this failure is due to laziness, ineptitude, or dishonesty is immaterial.

George II

(67,782 posts)
310. So, in backing down from claiming I wasn't truthful you say I'm lazy, inept, or dishonest...
Wed Sep 20, 2017, 09:38 AM
Sep 2017

....how sweet of you.

Do you understand how google works? Go to another computer somewhere and do the same search. Chances are good that you'll get a different search result.

Have a blessed day.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,104 posts)
311. You mean to say...
Wed Sep 20, 2017, 10:37 AM
Sep 2017

..."Do you understand Google employs a ranking system to determine the order in which search results are displayed, with that system being based on 1) how many times a site is linked to by other sites, 2) categorization tags, 3) PageRank, 4) number of subscriptions, and 4) number of times the result is clicked"?

No, I obviously don't.

But I'm glad you're now in agreement that maybe you shouldn't draw conclusions purely from Google's ranking system.

George II

(67,782 posts)
313. No, I mean to say what I said, thank you.
Wed Sep 20, 2017, 10:48 AM
Sep 2017

I'm still trying to figure out if I'm "lazy, inept, or dishonest..."

Demsrule86

(68,217 posts)
232. There is no such thing as constructive criticism ...all it does it drive voters away...especially
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:05 PM
Sep 2017

if the one criticizing is not even a member of the party.

Voltaire2

(12,511 posts)
285. well at least you are honest about how you think the party ought to operate.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 06:44 PM
Sep 2017

stunning, but thanks for sharing.

aikoaiko

(34,113 posts)
199. Go ahead. People who agree with support you and those who disagree won't.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:28 AM
Sep 2017


I like it when Bernie criticizes the Democratic party even when he says things that people like you think are disrespectful.

It makes you and people like you listen.
 

JCanete

(5,272 posts)
202. correct is a little strong, and if you never ever have harsh words for your party, then you aren't
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:39 AM
Sep 2017

taking any ownership yourself, but it is certainly your right to criticize Sanders for things you disagree with him on. But it isn't just YOUR party. It's our party. I want OUR party to be better. What Sanders is saying about where we've gone wrong and what we should be doing, is in my opinion, pretty damn accurate.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
203. Some of his comments would violate DU guidelines.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:40 AM
Sep 2017

about Supporting the Democratic Party and not bashing Democrats.

Demsrule86

(68,217 posts)
245. This is why I think it needs to be looked into again. However, I would not like to see threads
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:28 PM
Sep 2017

trashing him either because he does caucus with Democrats...above my pay grade

RiverStone

(7,228 posts)
213. How does this post help DEMS win in 2018?
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 01:07 PM
Sep 2017

Bash Bernie! Then let's bash Hillary!

We need to laser focus on uniting to win in 2018.

So sick of this divisive bullshit!

Mountain Mule

(1,002 posts)
217. Damn Straight!
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 01:27 PM
Sep 2017

I believe it is correct to be upset when Trump disrespects my country and uses his high office to commit treason, destroy the social fabric of our country while enriching himself and his family and cronies, dismantle vital agencies like HUD, the EPA, NOAA, etc., and is doing his best to get us into a nuclear shoot-out with N. Korea.

I believe that my time and my energy are precious, and I choose to use what I have to fight to get my country back. I don't give a damn what Bernie said or Hillary said or Alfred E. Newman said. I want actions - not quarrels over supposed or even real insults that occurred in the past.

Keep on with the championing of your PAST candidate of choice and just see what happens in the midterms and 2020. Do you really think the average voter will give a damn about what Bernie said in 2016 or 2017? Will the average voter have memorized Hillary's book and make their votes based upon something she wrote 3 years before the 2020 election. They will not.

If you want to fill the repugs with glee and give them an edge in the upcoming elections, just keep this crap up, people.

Just tell me this: What viable candidates can the democratic party field in the 2020 presidential election and what can we do to ensure that the dems win big time in all the elections? Screw Bernie and screw Hillary. Bottom line.

MrsCoffee

(5,801 posts)
223. How does calling the party an absolute failure help unite us for 2018?
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 01:32 PM
Sep 2017

Many of us are sick of the divisive bullshit.

tkmorris

(11,138 posts)
295. Maybe you haven't been paying attention
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 08:44 PM
Sep 2017

The party has been getting it's ass kicked with some regularity of late. Our last presidential candidate lost to a caricature cross of Pee Wee Herman and the Pharma Bro, brought somehow to life, one assumes with a magic ball cap or the equivalent. Figuring out WHY we are failing is the task at hand, not dickering over whether we are. That ship sailed some time ago.

 

FairWinds

(1,717 posts)
246. If the Dem establishment wants Bernie and progressives to get on board . .
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:38 PM
Sep 2017

it will have to shift its position on a number of issues . .

The Dem establishment backs the TPP (still!), won't challenge Big Pharma,
doesn't do much about predatory student loans, or other "extractive" non-industries
like pay-day lenders, they back the militarists' policies in Syria and brag about
wrecking Libya, they look for ways to oppose universal health care and the
Fight for $15, they have no interest in taking on the banksters or the ONE
PERCENT, they are fine with the party taking in tons of corporate cash. I could go on . .

It's not about loyalty, it is that Bernie is right on these (and other) issues.

So please stop demanding unquestioning loyalty - it does not work, and never has.

 

FairWinds

(1,717 posts)
304. i'm on board with them too . ..
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:33 PM
Sep 2017

but I want them to change - both for my sake and my
kids and grandkids.

Initech

(99,881 posts)
250. We need *ALL* the support we can get right now.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 02:50 PM
Sep 2017

*EVERYONE* is attacking the democrats, and it's getting quite revolting honestly. We aren't the ones who elected the fat jerk in the White House now.

Cuthbert Allgood

(4,839 posts)
254. I realize I'm new here, but how long is this going to go on?
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 03:16 PM
Sep 2017

Comparing Sanders to Republicans and libertarians and Greens is not going to help the Democratic party move on.

I mean, sure, if he's wrong about what he's saying, then don't change those things. But, is he wrong? Seems to me like there is a fundamental problem with a party that has lost control of the presidency, the House, the Senate, SCOTUS, and a majority of governorships. SOMETHING has to change. If we just do what we did in 2016, nothing will be different.

lovemydogs

(575 posts)
263. It seems like for some the primary never ended.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 04:06 PM
Sep 2017

I always thought people had a right to run for office. But, some are holding this anger because Bernie dared to run against Hillary for President.
Even though it is perfectly within rights to run for office.
And they never forgave him for doing so

hamsterjill

(15,198 posts)
258. That's pretty much where I stand, as well.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 03:23 PM
Sep 2017

To me, if he wants to be a Democrat, he needs to be a Democrat. It gave me no grief that Hillary was awarded the "Democratic" nomination with her having been a lifelong Democrat.

To date, independent candidates have not done well in a Presidential election; therefore, Bernie felt his best chance was by having one of the major parties' candidacy. He tried and failed to achieve that, and I actually thought that Bernie (himself) was okay with that.

At this point in time, he needs to either become a Democrat or else understand that NOT being one is going to have limitations as with any other independent. Accept the limitations of being an independent if that is his choice.

lovemydogs

(575 posts)
262. I believe it is correct to criticize my party when it is being stupid
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 04:04 PM
Sep 2017

I am a lifelong democrat. I have been supporting democrats for over 40 years.
And frankly, the party took a wrong turn in the 90s and keeps hitting dead ends ever since.
For the party to fix itself and get better it needs some tough love, some honest talk and a good shaking to snap it out of its current nonsense.
It needs a good kick in the pants.
To just go along, or say you are not going to say anything when your party is being dumb, to think being a loyal democrat means walking in lockstep, being a stepford wife, is harmful and does it no good. It will just keep making dumb choices and mistakes until people tell it the truth.
Just like being a good friend is to be honest when that friend screws up, its the same with the party.

 

lancelyons

(988 posts)
264. Agreed.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 04:16 PM
Sep 2017

Bernie keeps criticizing the team he says he is part of. He is doing this on purpose to push his base of supporters like he did with the anti-Hillary push.

If he is going to be a democrat he needs to work for the democratic party not insult it.

Progressive dog

(6,854 posts)
268. Yes it is
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 04:25 PM
Sep 2017

and that should be obvious to all Democrats. In the age of T-party and Trump, we have to support our friends.

Voltaire2

(12,511 posts)
287. It is never going to end.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 06:45 PM
Sep 2017

I have no idea what the intent of the OP is, although "a strong and unified party going into the 2018 election" would seem far-fetched.

mudstump

(342 posts)
291. The country has passed the party by...
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 07:14 PM
Sep 2017

running a deeply entrenched establishment candidate in the most anti-establishment election in our history was a strategic mistake that cost us. The party needs to be able to feel the pulse of the country and stop being tone deaf.

JHan

(10,173 posts)
297. this view feeds the false progressive vs establishment dichotomy.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 10:45 PM
Sep 2017

I've never seen "establishment" used like an albatross round the neck of a politician the way it was used last year. Any organization that endorsed her became "establishment" by dint, the height of absurdity - these were advocacy groups who toil for the most vulnerable in America.

The only candidate who actually cared was the so called "establishment" one .

Anti-establishment arguments work well for Republicans because of their loathing for government. A woman who wanted to defend Obama's legacy and make more progress for Americans was demonized, even though it was Republicans who made Obama's terms in office a nightmare because of their constant obstruction.

Hillary is no more "establishment" than Biden, for example, or Senators who have been in Congress for decades and"Tone deafness" - did you read the Democratic Platform?

Also, it seems you have an issue with the 4 million who favored the Democratic Nominee over her opponent?

StevieM

(10,499 posts)
298. She was called "establishment" because her husband was once president.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:01 PM
Sep 2017

Both times HRC ran people treated her like she was Bill Clinton's wife running for president.

There was no basis for it. She was no more establishment than Joe Biden or John Kerry or Barack Obama.

And she certainly never ran on the message "it's my turn."

It is disgusting how she was treated.

JHan

(10,173 posts)
300. Yes and Stevie, I'll never get over it...
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:07 PM
Sep 2017

I have NEVER seen "establishment" thrown around so carelessly against a candidate, over and over. It was a sly political hit job.

StevieM

(10,499 posts)
301. HRC was not actually someone who had long been liked by the establishment, whatever exactly that
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:09 PM
Sep 2017

means. And the reason why most party regulars did or did not like her at various points is because they followed the sentiments of the American people.

Hillary had fantastic poll numbers for many years. Politicians followed the polls, as they often do. It wasn't imaginable that the damage from the fake email scandal would be as bad as it was. And they certainly couldn't allow themselves to believe that Benghazi could be legitimately used to cause lasting damage.

2016 was not as much an anti-establishment year as 2008, or even 2012 when the Great Recession was dragging on. If it was then Trump would not have been facing such a major defeat had it not been for repeated efforts by the FBI to destroy the Democratic candidate.

When the state of the election flipped after the Comey intervention people took advantage of it to act like Trump had been racking up support all along and we just didn't see it until Election Day. The evidence clearly contradicts that IMO.



JHan

(10,173 posts)
302. +++++++++
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:17 PM
Sep 2017

hell and just for one example: she's so establishment, the media loved her ( OH wait........)

egduj

(804 posts)
303. That's very fair.
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 11:23 PM
Sep 2017

It's the whole "I'm going to criticize Bernie because Hillary lost the general election to Trump" stance that comes off a bit askew.

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