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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBernie Sanders supported the ACA. His support was crucial.
Bernie has long supported single payer. When the ACA was being debated in Congress, many single-payer supporters urged that it be voted down. Their argument (which has some merit to it) was that enactment of the ACA would further entrench the role of the big for-profit private insurance companies, and make getting to single payer that much harder.
If Bernie had agreed with them, he could easily have said, "I want single payer, I won't settle for anything less, and on that basis I'm voting Nay on invoking cloture to end the GOP filibuster of President Obama's bill."
On December 23, 2009, the vote on cloture was 60-39. Cloture requires a minimum of 60 affirmative votes. The bill just barely scraped by. If Bernie had voted Nay he would have strangled the ACA in its cradle.
This has been a message from the Department of Looking at the Actual Goddamn Record. We now return you to your regularly scheduled flame war.
JI7
(89,244 posts)do with the ACA.
Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)There is on DU a school of thought -- giving that word an extremely broad meaning -- according to which Bernie has covertly set out to sabotage the ACA, presumably because he wants single payer and thinks that will help.
My point was simply that Bernie Sanders voted for the ACA. He has also voted against every repeal bill.
My post did not concern the merits of single payer. If you want to go there, however, I'm quite content with the obvious comparison: There are different ways of implementing single payer, just as, among other industrialized countries, health care systems differ; but all of those other systems are better than the one we have now. That two states decided they couldn't implement single payer in one state does not convince me that the United States is for some unexplained reason incapable of achieving what every other industrialized country has done.
HarmonyRockets
(397 posts)It was not up for very long at all before getting taken down, but there were already quite a few people saying "I agree" and "K&R." I don't think it's most Clinton supporters on this board, it's a small group that have really gone off the deep end.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,109 posts)Or
...
Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #102)
Post removed
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)Turn on the news.
KPN
(15,641 posts)Why be angry at those who vocalize what is right and just? Where would we be without them? I really feel like you underestimate the socially beneficial role of so-called idealists, or perhaps you mistrust their motives. Hard for me to figure.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)If we had a chance, it would be one thing. We give up what we have for what? Nothing.
KPN
(15,641 posts)at least from my perspective, strongly.
"Risking the ACA" my ass. It does the opposite. Pushing Medicare for All right now is exactly what we need to do in order to get any workable universal health care system. The ACA is economically unsustainable as is and you know it. In the face of a self-centered, greedy, bigoted majority, starting where we are currently will only put us further back in the fight for universal health care.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)KPN
(15,641 posts)If it were truly sustainable, the GOP wouldn't be on the verge of actually being able to repeal it.
The real problem is greed. The trend in and current costs of health care in America are unsustainable over time. There aren't enough rich people to sustain the present level of profiteering. The ACA has been woefully inadequate in addressing that fact. Access is one thing, sustainability is another. Maybe it can be fixed if in fact it is saved, but campaigning on "incrementalism" is not a winning slogan by any stretch. Bold visions are.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)now, and we need a super majority to get single payer...and even then I have my doubts. We can build on the ACA and get to universal coverage in some form.
KPN
(15,641 posts)It is sustainable to a point, but at great and growing costs. Without significantly improved cost controls, it is not sustainable over the long term. For many folks, it has already reached that point, i.e. from the standpoint of their own pocketbooks.
The sustainability issue goes beyond health care in my view. The two party's have failed to address this. For the average American, the economic trend has been downward for going on 40-45 years. That's not sustainable. Continuing to do what we've done in the past (I call it ignoring the big picture while attending to window dressing) will only get us more of what we've already got. Saying we can't because ... Republicans, because we need a majority in order to make incremental improvements i.e., (what we've been doing over the 45 year downward trend period) is not a solution. It's the problem as I see it ... as do many voters and recent non-voters obviously.
I'm done with that. Lived through it. Time for change. Hope you will join me/us as we go for real change.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)KPN
(15,641 posts)Thanks for the post -- good to know we are not crazy.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)... and the one guy, Bernie, who can get us out of the proverbial "ditch" - practically OVERNIGHT in my opinion - is being treated like a heretic!!
Talk about crazy!!!
KPN
(15,641 posts)the right labeled liberals "elitists". Wonk-ability is favored over common sense and appealing to common people. I kind of feel like they (to be euphemistic, the "establishment" think that they are playing chess while we only play checkers, when in fact, they are not even in the game.
It's discouraging but I'm persistent and don't intend to go away.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)This may surprise you, but politic is quite often NOT about what is right and just. It's about the ugly, sloppy work of pushing forward and achieving what we can, when we can.
I am uninterested in noble defeats. I want actual progress for actual people.
Sometimes that means fighting for what we CAN do as work towards what we SHOULD do, and sometimes that means some strategic thinking and delayed gratification.
Must be nice to be go through life feeling certain about how righteous one is. What is it they say about people who question things including themselves?
You obviously don't have a clue about why we (the Ds) are in the shape we are in -- perhaps because you are too privileged and comfortable to see the forest for the trees. But I'm optimistic that someday the light will come on.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Not a smear, just stating the facts.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/jan/18/bernie-s/fact-checking-bernie-sanders-claim-he-helped-write/
Madam45for2923
(7,178 posts)WTF?
Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)Yes, it is a smear, and no, you are not just stating the facts.
You are lying. Be ashamed.
Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)who should be ashamed.
Accusing those presenting facts and links to back them up of "lying" is a smear, a denial of facts and something that deserves shame.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)Cary
(11,746 posts)You could phrase your point of view in a less confrontational way, if you don't want conflict. Bernie Sanders is one person. Democrats are more than 55 million strong if we can stop the nonsense and focus on policies rather than personalities.
We either coalesce or we get divided and conquered. We can't afford righteous indignation.
PatrickforO
(14,566 posts)and lots and lots and lots and lots of out of state money coming in from big pharma and insurance lobbies telling the same old bullshit story.
Single payer.
And you know, Bernie did support ACA in 09. And he will act now to save ACA from the axe. But he, like me and so many other Americans are for Medicare for all Americans.
KPN
(15,641 posts)Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)hasn't been passed in other places like Colorado. Does it occur to you, we simply don't have the numbers to pass single payer at the moment? What do you think will happen if we run on it in 18 or 20. The same demonetization will occur and we could lose. If we run on the ACA (hope we save it), we could win as people support and like it...a 'fixed' version would be difficult to demonize.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)And the obstacles that caused Green Mountain Care to fail?
I hear nothing on lessons learned about this from Sanders, and he brushes off any questions about this, especially about Green Mountain Care.
That is not productive for ensuring that those mistakes won't tank "Medicare for All."
CherokeeFiddle
(297 posts)failed because of many reasons. Lots of outside money poured in to defeat it which basically overwhelmed those of us who were on the ground here fighting for single payer. There was a campaign of disinformation which injected a lot fear and scare tactics into things.
It's not so cut & dry as you think.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)And who was pouring money into fighting ColoradoCare from out of state?
Also, can you point to the misinformation campaign?
I ask because if those things are successful obstacles to Single Payer, they need to be addressed.
You don't move forward without understanding what causes previous iterations of it to fail.
CherokeeFiddle
(297 posts)It was a response and outlined why it did. I'm new so it shouldn't be difficult to find but for whatever reason, I can't locate it. If you do, link me please
karynnj
(59,500 posts)The problem on the state level is that they need to work within the framework of the federal level and a system where many people currently have employer paid or subsidized insurance.
In the other industrialized countries, they did not start with a system where over half the people had insurance from their employer, who then could deduct the insurance payments from their profit meaning the government subsiized it. They created plans that were paid for by taxes. LBJ created Medicare for seniors as they did not have employer health care and created a pay roll tax which people would pay in their working years to pay for it. No one argued then for Medicare for all as the majority of workers had employer paid insurance.
I know Vermont had to work out things like how to treat people who already had as a benefit health insurance from their employer or former employer who might not be in Vermont.
Response to Jim Lane (Original post)
Post removed
Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)I'm less charitable than you. I think it's been downright insane for quite some time now.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)and maybe it isn't. I have my ideas, and you have yours. But this is and always was about saving the ACA and winning in 18 which we must do to save any progressive policy...one man is simply not important. Those who are upset about this realize, we may lose health care for decades after waiting a hundred years for it. We know single payer is not around the corner...maybe never. We could have worked with the ACA, offered a public option and lowered medicare to 55...but now we will have nothing unless we can save the ACA.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Last edited Wed Sep 20, 2017, 11:15 AM - Edit history (2)
... it's the "perfect storm" that will give the GOP the advantage they need to cripple and destroy the ACA. The voices of protest that would otherwise be calling and rising up are silent... confident in their belief that MFA is right around the corner, because a favorite politician said so (or because a respected politician "signed-on'').
-----
ETA: Typo correction. Wording.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)KPN
(15,641 posts)Sigh.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)There are similar ideas presented in sound bites. Most people think "emails" were both her private server, missing and they he DNC wrapped in one. Three no big deals became huge because people prefer things to be simple.
KPN
(15,641 posts)against Cassidy-Graham? ... Gee, and I thought I was a glass is half empty person.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Public, I certainly think it confuses a lot of voters for the same politicians to be supporting two different things. Amd of course people might think they should pick one.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... and they can't give 100% of their time and effort to everything simultaneously.
I have the least confidence in the ability of the "public" to remain focused on the more important issues. They are easily deceived and distracted by shiny objects and grand promises. Many are gullible and will believe whatever is told to them. Others are unrealistically optimistic and see the world through rose-colored glasses.
KPN
(15,641 posts)Cassidy-Graham/GOP health bill news. Who'd a figured?
Come on.
This stuff is really getting disingenuous.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)There's nothing disingenuous at all about the fact that MFA will NOT happen in my lifetime, NOR will it happen without a strong ACA. Pollyannaish claims to the contrary are what can be accurately labeled as being disingenuous.
CherokeeFiddle
(297 posts)Probably a lot sooner than you think and hopefully you'll be rejoicing with us when it does!
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... if the ACA is destroyed, it will be even longer. Either way, I'll be dead. But in the meantime, the "let it burn" mentality exhibited by some (with the misguided notion that it will bring about the desired results sooner) will only cause more suffering. It's a vain and selfish strategy that will fail, and it comes at the expense of the most vulnerable among us.
CherokeeFiddle
(297 posts)and I'm unsure why you think it would take 25 years until we have single payer in this country. It is a wildly popular issue on both sides of the aisle. Within 8 years we'll have it.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)CherokeeFiddle
(297 posts)I would counter with "nope" enables the deaths of people.
The ACA was done in a shorter time frame than 8 years. Single payer is even more popular and will be a massive campaign issue come 2018 & 2020
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)I'll go ahead and give you a heads-up and advance warning: my response will be the same no matter how many different ways you try to reword your question or arguments. Enjoy the rosy pictures... I agree with you, it would be nice. But the road to get there isn't as smooth or easy or short as you imagine.
CherokeeFiddle
(297 posts)A fantasy? Nope, it is reality. It will be a huge campaign issue and look at all the names already behind Conyers & Bernie's bills. It is 100% realistic and the time to begin the entire argument is now. It is a lightning rod that will bring people to the polls in 2018, and we need that desperately as voting turnout is always low for us in midterms. It will be also be a major campaign issue come 2020 and a defining factor in who we elect to represent us.
I'll go ahead and give you a heads-up and advance warning: my response will be the same no matter how many different ways you try to reword your question or arguments. Enjoy the rosy pictures... I agree with you, it would be nice. But the road to get there isn't as smooth or easy or short as you imagine.
No I am 100% correct. Under the ACA 28 million plus are sill uninsured and millions more are underinsured. Red states right now lead the death count and it is due to not expanding Medicaid under the ACA. It is time we quit enabling death in this country period and insure EVERYBODY.
That's fine then we will agree to disagree. The road isn't easy, it never has been but the majority of America is now behind it and they vote!
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)CherokeeFiddle
(297 posts)As was written today in the Daily Beast
lapucelle
(18,229 posts)That's the headline for the story at your link.
The Republican talking points are specific to the Senate proposal rather than to single payer itself. (The talking points say nothing about the House Medicare for All bill introduced for the 8th time last January by John Conyers.) It's probably easier to go after the proposal because we still don't have the actual text of an actual bill.
It's been a week since the Senate proposal was announced. I wish that the Library of Congress would hurry up and publish the actual legislation.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/1804/text
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/676
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)= GOP talking points.....
Because it's not like there is any valid criticism of his bill anywhere outside the smoke filled GOP lair...
https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/9/8/16271888/health-care-single-payer-aca-democratic-agenda
http://khn.org/news/democrats-unite-but-what-happened-to-medicare-for-all/
https://www.thenation.com/article/medicare-for-all-isnt-the-solution-for-universal-health-care/
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/single-payer-healthcare-pluses-minuses-means-201606279835
That GOP must have mind control rays.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,109 posts)Wow, I knew I didnt want to do this anymore, I was right.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... and a departure from reality. I'm a little surprised that "Death Panels" weren't tossed in for good measure.
Hang in there Eliot... I love ya!
Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)I believe that he would know if it was realistic...
http://www.npr.org/2017/08/11/542676994/bernie-sanders-knows-his-medicare-for-all-bill-wont-pass-thats-not-the-point
George II
(67,782 posts)...of decades of work to get there. Remember, Ted Kennedy was pushing for it years before the ACA was passed and Hillary Clinton herself worked on healthcare when she was First Lady in the 1990s. As a matter of fact the first iteration of universal healthcare was introduced in the House way back in 1943. If we use that as the benchmark, it took 63 years to get to the ACA.
CherokeeFiddle
(297 posts)but at the same time single payer has been decades too, nobody will deny that. The end goal is to have everyone insured, correct? I don't care of it's multipayer, single payer, whatever, everyone should be insured as health care is a human right in my eyes.
George II
(67,782 posts)....for decades (like 74 years?) If you don't care if it's multipayer, single payer, whatever, why is everyone frothing about this new plan that will be introduced in the Senate (I don't think it has been yet, by the way) that we all know won't go anywhere?
The current ACA, if all the states were to cooperate and embrace it, would result in everyone being insured,correct? And, unlike the proposed plan, we all know how it would be funded.
CherokeeFiddle
(297 posts)Because for the first time it is actually getting traction and getting co-sponsors. It is now at the forefront of the conversation, something which has never happened before. This is important for a few reasons;
At our local meetings we have on Thursday evenings, people are very excited. We have had numerous new people show up since the election and many of these people are quite young. Last week we had over a dozen new members and the one thing they were all talking about? Single payer.
See, it goes beyond just making it a reality within the new few months. We know it won't be. However what it does is energize people, it is a lightning rod to get GOTV and the timing is dead on the money because in another 6-8 weeks time, midterm campaigning will be in full swing. And the more that single payer is at the forefront of the conversation, the better.
People want something to vote FOR, not simply AGAINST and messaging is an integral part of how you motivate people to get out & vote.
If all states co-operated, yes mostly however it still leaves insurance companies largely in charge, something which I have a huge problem with. This is one reason why our cost is so high, among many. How would you address the cost of premiums under the ACA? That is something which has to be tackled if we decide to completely ditch single payer and go only ACA route. Many can not afford their premiums, that is a reality and many don't qualify for subsidies.
You have to recall what Harry Reid said; "The ACA is absolutely a stepping stone to single payer".
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)thing that John Dingell (who is 83) and his father who held the seat before him have been trying to make happen, it's 2017 and it's still not looking like it's going to happen.
So, perhaps "popularity" isn't how we should be making laws in this country? How about one with the details worked out, a CBO score and some specifics?
We're not having anything within 8 or even 25 years unless people get beyond the slogans, learn about health care reform and come up with a plan that will work and get the people who will vote that in, into office.
What we have now are slogans and people who are "wild" about "popularity" and don't seen to understand how government works and why solid policy details have to be put into a bill, including funding planks. Also, the repeated attacks on the people who have been favorable towards Universal health care, single payer is only one of many methods to achieve it, is not going to do anything to help achieve it.
Perhaps more homework and less repetition of attacks on Democrats that sound more like Republican attacks rather than allies who actually wish t achieve Democratic ideals, like Universal healthcare coverage and Single Payer?
All this punching left is unproductive and it's leading to dangerous times when people's healthcare coverage is being threatened. Destroying the ACA does nothing to bring about Single Payer, but it does threaten to kill a lot of people who are already dealing with pre-existing conditions, who have been putting off going to the doctor to get diagnosed and who cannot wait for some fantasy of a plan that its creator won't flesh out.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)it gets used as ammunition against everything else in that promise...
"You can keep your doctor."
Sigh.
When people are promised something, and it turns out not to be true, they lose confidence in other things you might say.
sigh.
KPN
(15,641 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)That became ammunition that allowed a lot of people to say he lied, and that the ACA was not what he said it was.
KPN
(15,641 posts)Bernie and those who share his views for something that hasn't even happened. Geesh!
The sky is falling!
You know, one of the big reasons the Democratic Party has been losing membership and votes is its penchant for treading carefully around the fringes of issues that are important to people. People want leaders who stand for something other than just getting elected. The public is with us on universal health care and we already have nearly a majority with us on single payer. We need to represent the people.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)Use twitter and Facebook...everything.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Democrats believe that health care is a right, not a privilege, and our health care system should put people before profits. Thanks to the hard work of President Obama and Democrats in Congress, we took a critically important step toward the goal of universal health care by passing the Affordable Care Act, which has covered 20 million more Americans and ensured millions more will never be denied coverage because of a pre-existing condition. Democrats will never falter in our generations-long fight to guarantee health care as a fundamental right for every American. As part of that guarantee, Americans should be able to access public coverage through a public option, and those over 55 should be able to opt in to Medicare. Democrats will empower the states, which are the true laboratories of democracy, to use innovation waivers under the ACA to develop unique locally tailored approaches to health coverage. This will include removing barriers to states which seek to experiment with plans to ensure universal health care to every person in their state. By contrast, Donald Trump wants to repeal the ACA, leaving tens of millions of Americans without coverage.
For too many of us, health care costs are still too high, even for those with insurance. And medical debt is a problem for far too many working families, with one-quarter of Americans reporting that they or someone in their household had problems or an inability to pay medical bills in the past year. Democrats will also work to end surprise billing and other practices that lead to out-of-control medical debt that place an unconscionable economic strain on American households. We will repeal the excise tax on high-cost health insurance and find revenue to offset it because we need to contain the long-term growth of health care costs, but should not risk passing on too much of the burden to workers. Democrats will keep costs down by making premiums more affordable, reducing out-of-pocket expenses, and capping prescription drug costs. And we will fight against insurers trying to impose excessive premium increases.
Democrats will fight any attempts by Republicans in Congress to privatize, voucherize, or phase out Medicare as we know it. And we will oppose Republican plans to slash funding and block grant Medicaid and SNAP, which would harm millions of Americans.
We will keep fighting until the ACAs Medicaid expansion has been adopted in every state. Nineteen states have not yet expanded Medicaid. This means that millions of low-income Americans still lack health insurance and are not getting the care they need. Additionally, health care providers, clinics, hospitals, and taxpayers are footing a higher bill when people without insurance visit expensive emergency rooms.
Democrats believe your zip code or census tract should not be a predictor of your health, which is why we will make health equity a central part of our commitment to revitalizing communities left behind. Democrats believe that all health care services should be culturally and linguistically appropriate, and that neither fear nor immigration status should be barriers that impede health care access.
https://www.democrats.org/party-platform#universal-health
KPN
(15,641 posts)It's what we said we'd do. Some are actually keeping their word by proposing something as opposed to just putting fingers in the dikes to slow the backflow.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)You said:
and I pointed out that we do represent the people on universal health care. Already. In the platform.
KPN
(15,641 posts)primarily by platforms?
Platforms mean squat in comparison to actual action and follow through. Plans are meaningless without implementation -- people get that.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Because the ACA is as far down the road as we have ever gotten to UHC.
And the ACA got passed.
Can you show me where that's not implementation of what people want in the way of getting actual things done towards universal health care coverage?
KPN
(15,641 posts)repeatedly in the past, and has leaned on the "but there's the GOP" argument for too long now ... and voters have moved away from the party because of that.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)The ACA was a followthrough on the promise to work towards secure Universal Health Care coverage.
A successful one. That bill got passed - so that's not something you are talking about.
Now if they were to have offered up that bill for years and years, and it never got anywhere, would you call that failing to follow through?
Are you saying that when a politician or party says "but the GOP..." they are just giving a lame excuse for failure to follow through on their promises or platform?
Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)the actual actions, the "follow through" and the voting record is mentioned for some people who don't bother to actually inform themselves. They get awfully touchy about facts, even when fact checking websites are evoked, evidence, facts, reality etc, doesn't matter to some people who choose to be as uninformed as possible.
You actually have to have a plan in order to implement anything, most adults with functional brains who are not being actively ratfucked by nefarious actors get that. I think the vote totals in the past election made that clear. The majority went with the person with the plans, not the vague slogans that had literally no meaning whatsoever.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)"Sigh."
KPN
(15,641 posts)You do realize, I hope, that change is coming -- in fact, has already come to the Democratic Party. Can't turn back that clock on this one.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)What purpose does it serve to take personal swipes at me?
R B Garr
(16,950 posts)the GOP to submit this new bill. It's obvious to anyone that it did, and you make complete sense. It's all about the poor timing.
Stephanie Miller's show this morning had a call from someone whining about "Bernie bashing", and they let him have it by saying the cult of personality has to stop.
This has gone on too long with "issues" being cast as nothing more than personality and beauty contests. The majority who reliably vote are getting sick and tired, completely fed up with this charade anymore. Enough. This is all about changing reality, and it's just petty, juvenile and useless.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Looks like her podcasts are available for free streaming on my Amazon Echo (via Tune In) ... I'll have to give her a listen.
R B Garr
(16,950 posts)out that showed both Hillary and Bernie are popular. She then addressed the caller about the cult of personality. It sounded like she was tired of the accusations about anyone who questions him and that's why she brought that up. I usually don't get to listen to a whole show in the morning drive, but yes, there are those podcasts I forget about.
ProfessorPlum
(11,254 posts)and the inmates are running the asylum.
thanks for this post
left-of-center2012
(34,195 posts)Amen !
I've begun to think the Bernie haters may be GOP or Russian trolls
set out to weaken us in 2018 and 2020.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)among DEMOCRATS (and Independents) no less, help your cause? I don't get it.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)I am even not sure it is true now.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)I see where you're coming from, I do... I just honestly believe you're underestimating the intelligence and the WILL of the American people to provide accessible, affordable healthcare to all.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)We may have slight differences in terms of policy, but we are all on the same side. I would crawl across broken glass to vote for Sen. Sanders if he was the Democratic nominee in 20...and work my heart out for his campaign.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)And if that will sinks below 50%?
Will that be the basis for giving up on M4A bill?
brush
(53,758 posts)repeal Obamacare with just 51 votes?
This roll out of a bill with no chance of passing now takes the focus off of defending the ACA and gives repugs a lever and talking point which repug Lindsay Graham jumped on, saying something to the effect, and I'm paraphrasing: "We'd better pass this new bill now or will have socialized medicine."
Timing, as they say, is everything. Why wasn't that simple, strategic detail thought of? Do not give the repugs any ammo to repeal the ACA.
This roll out could've waited a couple of weeks.
KPN
(15,641 posts)Kamala Harris, Jeff Merkley, Tammy Baldwin, Kirsten Gillibrand and the other 9 Senators who co-sponsored the bill. Okay, got it.
brush
(53,758 posts)I see you didn't address the question.
Why couldn't this wait until Oct. 1 when all the focus could be on it and not on the repugs using this Medicare for all roll out as a talking point to try to repeal the ACA?
You do know that after Sept. 30 the repugs need 60 votes to repeal, not the 51 they need now, right?
This could've waited.
KPN
(15,641 posts)to push it now in contrast to the Republican effort to repeal. What better way to show how ridiculous the GOP position is?
Here's how I hear your argument: The GOP wants to roll back/repeal the ACA. Oh, that means we better not propose anything that actually would be better than the ACA, that would actually achieve everything we say we want to achieve regarding health care in our platform. .... Silly ... and directly or indirectly (depending upon the issue/circumstances) why we get rolled all the time.
brush
(53,758 posts)The focus should be saving the ACA from the repugs getting rid of it.
Medicare for all is a worthy goal but let's get real, it's not going anywhere with the repug-controlled Congress.
The ACA is in place. Let's focus our efforts on trying to save it, then take back Congress if we can then pass Medicare for all.
We all know the repugs won't, at least we should all know that.
KPN
(15,641 posts)I think I'll just leave it there and do something more productive.
brush
(53,758 posts)KPN
(15,641 posts)Fair enough?
brush
(53,758 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)...maybe they would have done so themselves.
Once introduced, they supported it.
But if the issue hadn't been raised now, republicans might have snoozed through the end of the month. That's not going to happen now.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)are not that swift when it comes to political strategy? Could they not have waited too?
Actually, I think they're very wise in seeing the value in lending their support to Bernie's push for Medicare for all now. Kamala made the argument very well in the recent presentation she made to supporters. Did you see it?
brush
(53,758 posts)(60 votes instead of 51 needed after Sept. 30) but felt compelled to sign on to Sanders' bill to appeal to his supporters.
Who isn't in favor of Medicare for all but why muddy the ACA repeal issue with this when Oct. 1 is so close?
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)to appeal to Bernie's supporters? Maybe they know it was the smart and RIGHT thing to do?
brush
(53,758 posts)instead of after Sept 30?
Believe me, if the repugs are successful in repealing the ACA (Lindsay Graham hinted at this roll out by sayiing "if we don't appeal this now we'll have socialized medicine." there's going to be blow back at this distraction away from the fight to save the ACA.
This could've waited until Oct. 1.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)to wait a few weeks before signing on to Bernie's excellent bill? Come on, give our future candidates a LITTLE credit.
brush
(53,758 posts)before the 2020 campaign even gets started.
The "corporate whore" and "crooked and corrupt Hillary" bashings are still fresh in the memory.
They know how that works.
KPN
(15,641 posts)it's definitely close minded and self absorbed.
leftstreet
(36,102 posts)This is a really good point
Response to Jim Lane (Original post)
TexasTowelie This message was self-deleted by its author.
Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)You're free to call it "the most progressive piece of legislation regarding healthcare in over forty years" but that opinion was not universal on the left. If Bernie really were against the ACA, he could have justified a vote against it as being a vote for more progressive health care.
In 2012, Bernie won re-election with 71% of the vote. That is not a typo. Seventy-one percent. He could have afforded to lose a few votes over health care.
Here, the most plausible explanation for his record on the ACA is the simplest: While continuing to advocate for single payer, he sincerely concluded that the ACA, flawed though it was, was still better than what it replaced.
SaschaHM
(2,897 posts)If he scuttled a Democratic president's major legislative achievement, he would have seen some actual opposition and backlash that could have easily cost him his chairmanships/ranking member status.
He might win a 3 person race, but the Democratic caucus is under no obligation to give him ranking member status or a chairmanship on any committee and the influence that comes with setting the agenda. It's the price of admission. He gets an oversized role for a junior senator from a small solid blue state and the Democrats get a reliable vote on must pass legislation.
CherokeeFiddle
(297 posts)He isn't going anywhere nor would he have
SaschaHM
(2,897 posts)Nor if the VT Democratic establishment actually treated him like an outsider and challenged him. He isn't widely popular because he has a history of sticking it to the Democrats legislatively. He's not Lisa Murkowski. He's widely popular because he's a reliable vote for Democrats.
CherokeeFiddle
(297 posts)KPN
(15,641 posts)Sounds to me like you assume that Bernie would not have supported the ACA in 2010 if he thought he might pay a price for that.
If so, I would guess you haven't paid much attention to Bernie. I really don't think you would assume that had you.
Response to KPN (Reply #129)
TexasTowelie This message was self-deleted by its author.
zentrum
(9,865 posts)...for the actual Goddamn record.
pnwmom
(108,973 posts)And introducing his single-payer bill on the same day he knew they were introducing their ACA repeal wasn't the greatest idea. It provided a distraction at a time when we need everyone to be focusing on saving the ACA. And I've heard more than one person right here say they don't care about what happens to the ACA -- they just want single payer.
sheshe2
(83,708 posts)That breaks my heart.
Here is one group that will suffer and die without ACA.
And the others
Now, Donald Trump, Mike Pence and Mitch McConnell are hell-bent on repealing this life-saving law and undoing the eight years of progress we have seen in ending health disparities for communities of color, women, children, seniors and LGBTQ people. Hatched in secret and with no public hearings of committee debate, their plans to repeal the ACA would strip key patient protections, slash Medicaid by hundreds of billions of dollars, and defund Planned Parenthood -- one of the countrys largest providers of transgender-inclusive health care and a primary site for HIV testing.
MORE:https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/opinion-repealing-affordable-care-act-direct-threat-millions-lgbtq-americans-n786341
At this crucial time ACA should be front and forward. It is the law of the land, the healthcare of millions is at stake. The GOP is planning to take it away, a healthcare plan that exists and is functioning. That SHOULD BE OUR SOLE FOCUS. Next week...next Wednesday, they say they will vote. This is where the focus should be and it pains me that it is not.
pnwmom
(108,973 posts)Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)pnwmom
(108,973 posts)LostOne4Ever
(9,287 posts)Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)and not saving the ACA.
So perhaps he could do more than pay lip service and get his peeps on message?
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)And, yes very hard to get them on message... almost impossible once you've eaten them.
Weekend Warrior
(1,301 posts)Is spot on. Solid analogy.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)of the ACA are equivalent to marshmallows and should be disposed of, since they cannot do anything productive?
What an interesting commentary Our Revolution.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Nice strawman argument though! My positions, as stated here for YEARS, are just the OPPOSITE of the way you misconstrued them.
Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)That's not what a strawman argument is, please go learn what things mean before you start using words you don't understand.
You might want to read over what you wrote about the Revolution and their IQs, chocolate covered marshmallows who can't do anything on message?
Harsh. Especially the "chocolate covered" thing, twitter people consider that to be racist, they say so when they see the only donut icon on twitter has chocolate frosting. Apparently that's a racist attack on Nina Turner.
Chocolate covered marshmallows who won't do anything useful because they're unmanageable, that's literally what you said. That was your analogy. The person who wrote that didn't get his own analogy. The Revolution people will be quite upset, they enjoy throwing tantrums at people who say such things.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)under the bus that goes on around here on a daily basis. Has nothing to do with the complexion of his supporters btw - ironically accused of being chromatically monolithic - I actually just happen to like a particular variety of peeps.
Hope you get it now.
Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)You were the one who threw them under the bus, with your comments. If it was meant to be a joke, um ... keep your day job.
I think you're not getting the irony, nor do you seem to be getting the reference, which ironically was all about frosting, just as you used it.
Peeps are just superficially dyed, non substantial chemical filled stuff that has no flavor, bland as heck.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)No need to be rude... you have yourself a good evening.
Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)I'm never rude, and there never is a need to be rude, but some people cannot seem to help themselves.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)the health care bill to stop 'Bernie's socialist healthcare plan'...and the implication was out there that Dems don't like the ACA. I hear commentators talk about how unwise it was to put out single payer before the ACA was secured.If we lose the ACA, it will be in part because we put out the single payer bill. It was a bad idea as many warned (including me). However, that is not important Sen. Sanders is not important...none of the Dems who signed on are important...the thousands who will loses healthcare are what is important. We have to fight for them and stop the GOP now. Also, do not run on single payer in 18. This is but a taste of the shit coming our way if we do. I would like to win this time.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)for all Americans. Grab the pitchforks and go after The Monster!!
Autumn
(45,012 posts)contrast to what the Gop is trying to pass off as healthcare. It was a smart move.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Autumn
(45,012 posts)But Bernie is all on it.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)to get any sort of healthcare again. The ACA is all we have, and if it goes there will be hell to pay...before it was the GOP who would be held accountable that may no longer be true. It was a mistake to introduce single payer before the ACA was safe...but it is what is ...please call Congress and help save millions of lives.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)And it looks like Bernie has most if not ALL the potential Democratic candidates for 2020 signed on as co-sponsors of his healthcare bill - you gonna blame them too? - which will be the defining issue that wins us back the White House... guaranteed healthcare as a human right being favored by an overwhelming majority of Americans.
You can thank Bernie later.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)I don't think we will have the numbers anytime soon. Are you one of those who think the ACA's demise will usher in single payer? If so, you are wrong.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)I've read on DU, and I've been here a long time. The lack of compassion for those who are fragile and need ongoing care as part of a political ploy does little to recommend this conscious choice or those who are making this crap shoot to me. No, I won't be thanking Sanders later. I will hold him responsible for every bit of suffering and each death he helps Republicans cause by destroying healthcare in a highly risky bit of grandstanding. It's my opinion. That anyone on the left who claims to hold caring for the sick and poor could hold the thought of using them as pawns is mindboggling to me. Nothing progressive about it.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)I've NEVER advocated for repeal of the ACA... just the opposite... so why use that strawman argument?... talk about cynical!
I'd laugh if the situation wasn't so serious due to a madman in the White House trying to destroy this country and undo ALL that Obama accomplished. IF (note the word "IF" that happens - and I hope that DOES NOT happen!!! - and that leads to the Fuhrer-in-Chief's downfall, I for one will not shed a tear!!
Anyway, no apology is necessary Skidmore for misconstruing my words... this is what I've come to expect in the fight to make universal healthcare a human right.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)there is a clear majority of Republicans in both houses of Congress who have nothing to show for their efforts this year. I have seen several trot out Sander's bill as the bogey man to sell GC against. Why pick now, when ACA has achieved support by the majority of Americans to muddy the water and risk it all? You don't gamble with crazy. Ill conceived and untimely.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)....we're concerned with keeping the ACA the law of the land, legislating in 2017, and saving our country so we'll have an opportunity to vote for a president in 2020.
I'm certainly not rooting for repeal of the ACA so we can get a leg up on elections in 2018 or 2020.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)I never said that! I said if the GOP were to do that, they would surely hang themselves in the upcoming 2018 and 2020 elections... that's all.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)I watched CNN and MSNBC last night.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)... that's a novel argument, I must say.
Furthermore, you do realize that, without Bernie's leadership, it's doubtful that the ACA would ever have been passed? Maybe it's time to give the Bernie bashing a rest.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Can't stand CNN and the right-leaning bullshit they spew... so I never watch it anymore. And I missed Rachel's show last night, so I can't comment on whether she mentioned Bernie's defense of the ACA, sorry.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)I want to know. This is why I asked. I also googled and found nothing recent.
CherokeeFiddle
(297 posts)What the heck is all this then? I think your blind hatred for Bernie may be getting in the way there some. He's been fighting for the ACA for YEARS.
From 2013
To this week on twitter.
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)we fix the ACA because it is all we have for years. But I am glad he is on twitter.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)I will allay believe and so will others that the single payer bill being introduced on the same day impacted our fight to save the ACA in a negative fashion. It would be great to get guaranteed healthcare. But it is not possible right now. I believe in getting what you can and going back for more when the time is right. I will never understand why this bill was introduced before the ACA was secured. In my opinion, it was madness.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)to single payer in my opinion.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)if it happens, would lead to its demise in the 2018 mid-term and 2020 presidential election. Guess we'll soon find out if these Nazi Rethugs pull it off.
If they do, in the end, you'll be singing Bernie's praises.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)we still need a 60 vote majority...and people will die in the meantime. I won't be singing Sen. Sanders praises in any case because I disagree completely about introducing single payer now...if the ACA survives, it will be in spite of this. Listen, I respect your views as well and truly hope you are right...but I just don't think you are...the GOP is willing to risk losing office to stop healthcare...they know this is their chance to kill it for decades.
yodermon
(6,143 posts)where am i.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)It might be more now, but he really didn't have much choice but to vote for ACA in 2009.
But, I don't think he introduced his Single Payer Bill to hurt chances of ACA. He's probably been working on it for some time and the last ditch effort to repeal the ACA came up rather suddenly. But, I'm sure GOPers will advance the argument that if they don't stop ACA, Single Payer will be next. If the Graham-Cassidy Bill had not come up, Sanders' Single Payer Bill did produce a lot of good debate.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)All that great talk for a bill that is years from happening is not worth one life that will be lost if the ACA goes down...the bill gave the GOP cover...it just did. if we lose healthcare now, it could be decades before we have anything. And some who post here think that if the ACA goes down...why single payer will happen. It won't. There are serious issue with single payer in this country...our work insurance system to name one... I think we could have ended up with a non-profit universal system like Germany or Switzerland by building on the ACA...with nothing to build on... all healthcare goes away...who knows how long.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)best way to get us close to Single Payer without having to cram it down throats of stupid right wingers opposed to a government plan. If the PO was any near as good as we think, people would have taken it. Within a few years, we'd have at least an 80% public plan, with 20% sticking it out because they detest the government.
But here we are.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)if we made it so even people with work coverage could use the public option, it would help also...we have a catastrophic policy from work that pays little...but it is all we have.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)GaryCnf
(1,399 posts)where the OP is reasonable and fact-based is not the best place to ask, but are there actually DU members claiming that the introduction of Medicare for All bill lessens the chance of preserving the ACA because a handful of INSANE right wing senators from blood red States who face ZERO threat of losing their seats are telling their Trump-loving constituents that MFA is "proof" that the ACA is the first step toward godless Communism?
I hate to dismiss anyone's opinion, but get back to me when the Republicans who actually have a chance of losing start talking like that. The introduction of MFA, as its co-sponsors, including some who are facing tough re-election battles, know, tells reasonable voters how much Democrats care about health care. The Republicans whose votes we need to save the ACA and can actually get know that too.
The MFA will SAVE the Affordable Care Act, if it can be saved. If it can't, THAT is on a national electoral strategy of appeasement that handed the House and Senate over to Republicans.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)and to put out a replacement bill during the fight to save the ACA was foolish. It helped those blood red GOP Senators you refer to...turn on the TV if you don't think what I am saying is true. Listen to what was said yesterday. Today will be worse.
GaryCnf
(1,399 posts)John Barrasso's (or any other RWNJ's) vote and we are not taking their seat. They don't count and their opinions don't count.
The only Republican senators we care about are the one's whose votes we CAN get and those senators are not repeating Barrasso's Red-baiting. In fact, the ONLY place you see it repeated is . . .
That is why our rising stars are behind it. It's brilliant politics.
These is a sad attempt to shift the blame for a predicament created by the politics of appeasement's electoral disaster to the backs of Booker, Harris, Sanders and Gillebrand.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)and unlike some, I place people's live above ideology. Also, single payer has a fatal flaw...and it has to do with workplace insurance...the same forces that killed Hillarycare will destroy any single payer bill.
GaryCnf
(1,399 posts)is that it cements Democrats as the party that wants health care for all and moderate Republicans looking for cover as part of the party that wants to take it away.
What's more, it does so without having to explain the complex set of shenanigans the GOP has used (Supreme Court, Rubio killing the pools, refusal to expand Medicaid, etc.) to create the very issues with the ACA they are using to justify ditching it.
With the introduction of MFA, it's good guys (except to a handful of anti-communists who can't get past the Cold War) versus bad guys.
Harris, Booker, Sanders, and Gillebrand did not become the early favorites for our 2020 presidential nomination by being as venal or banal as some people seem to accuse them of being.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)ride it into taking the house and maybe even the Senate. But if you turn on your television...you will see the beginning of the demonetization of single payer...it will work just as it did in the 90's. It is being used as a reason to pass the GOP murderbill to save the country from 'socialized medicine'. It will only get worse. This is not smart politics and will not help us in 18 or 20. And even if it did, I am unwilling to sentence thousands of people to death because they have no health care in order to improve our electoral chances; of course I think just the opposite happens. We could lose the ACA and Medicaid. This is a disaster.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)There has been a single payer de facto litmus test for presidential candidates. Purity politics will be the end of progressives if we are not careful. I understand the Dem's motivation...if there had been no single payer bill, we could have all rallied behind the ACA...and that is what should have happened.
GaryCnf
(1,399 posts)which includes the very people I mentioned of creating a distraction that will cost us the ACA.
Not only are you wrong . . .
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)We're all being polite.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)don't blame them...purity politics are destructive.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)post. However, it was his bill, and I believe it endangers the ACA because essentially it is a repeal bill put forth during a time when we are desperately trying to save the ACA. It should never have been attempted until the ACA was safe. I will also say that if we run on single payer, the GOP will demonize it and we lose 18...it has already begun. The Democrats won't be blamed nor should they.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)the case. I have heard Lindsey Graham make the case that murdercare has to pass because the alternative is 'Bernie's socialized medicine single payer bill". Turn on the TV...the single payer bill is hurting the ACA. The GOP uses it as an excuse to not reach a compromise with Democrats to save the ACA as well (no compromise is possible why look the Dems introduce a socialized medicine bill-untrue of course but it gives the GOP cover and an excuse.) They could not make any of these claims if the bill had not been introduced until after the ACA was safe.
They have repeatedly claimed the new murdercare bill is all that stands between them and horror or horrors ...socialized medicine....the last conservative stand. Say what you want but in my opinion, there is no doubt the single payer bill is hurting our attempt to save the ACA and if we lose it most definitely will be part of the reason.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)He rarely mentions it and if one relied on Sanders one wouldn't know the ACA existed. Instead he refers vaguely to "health insurance" and that infrequently. And introducing competing legislation at a moment when the ACA is in peril can under no circumstances be considered support. And all the memes in the world can't rewrite history.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)ucrdem
(15,512 posts)But at times it's essential so don't go changin'!
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)seem indifferent that we may lose the ACA and any chance at universal coverage because a single payer bill was introduced prematurely.
aikoaiko
(34,165 posts)When the choice is ACA over nothing or a Republican plan, he vigorously defends the ACA.
But he also says we can do better than the ACA.
I've not seen him say otherwise.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)Last edited Wed Sep 20, 2017, 11:20 AM - Edit history (1)
It just doesn't work that way.
GaryCnf
(1,399 posts)You're entire argument rests upon your characterization of MFA as a "repeal bill" and/or the incorrect premise that the fear of "creeping socialism" is a meaningful force with reachable voters in those pink/purple states where we have a shot of taking a Republican seat OR in the minds of the Republican currently holding that seat.
NOT ONE REPUBLICAN is calling it a "repeal bill" or trying to argue that it "proves" they are right about there being problems with the ACA (other than those created by Republican sabotage). That pejorative is ENTIRELY the product of Democrats (who are so opposed to single payer, or are so opposed to . . ., that they are willing to sink the political futures of our best and brightest) trying to turn DEMOCRATS against it.
Furthermore, in my humble opinion, these arguments are also being raised to divert from the inescapable fact that the ONLY reason we are even close to losing the ACA are the devastating losses suffered by "moderate" Democrats in both houses of Congress who were swept into office by the greatest president of all time, Barack Obama, and then ran away from him and his accomplishments when they came up for re-election.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)support it in a heartbeat. I don't care what the GOP says...The single payer bill is an alternative to the ACA; thus, it is inherently understood to be better than the ACA and is in fact a replacement bill. Single payer may be the best thing since slice bread, but we can't achieve it right now. There was no compelling reason to introduce any single payer bill now. The timing was disastrous for the fight to save the ACA. And some are now convinced that single payer is achievable so they won't call Congress. I have seen people say it right here. If we lose the ACA and medicaid...we are looking at decades without any national healthcare...it was damn tough to pass the ACA. It is ironic that those who are passionate about single payer, may have cost us the only path forward in order to attain this...I always thought a public option and a lowering of Medicare for those over 55 was possible and would have eventually lead to single payer or some form of universal coverage...if the ACA goes with get nothing.
mythology
(9,527 posts)Yes he'd prefer single payer, but he votes no on every crappy replacement the Republicans come up with.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)Democratic allies will do so. We are talking about introducing single payer the same day the GOP introduced another version of murdercare...it was bad timing. The bill should not have been introduced (if at all, I am against making yourself a target by introducing bills that can't pass) after the ACA was safe.
LexVegas
(6,041 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Bettie
(16,083 posts)but there are a few who don't care about the Actual Goddamn Record, they only care about their hatred of one particular man.
Doesn't matter what he does or says, those few will follow everywhere his name is mentioned to sow division.
LonePirate
(13,412 posts)He was no different than any other senator in the Dem caucus at the time.
GaryCnf
(1,399 posts)Every vote is critical.
I think the point is that it was "moderates" who held the ACA ransom to get rid of the single-payer option.
It was liberals, including but not limited to Senator Sanders, who compromised on this issue.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)what we could...and it sure is a hell of a lot better than the nothing that we ill get if the ACA is repealed. And it also gives the GOP a chance to get rid of medicaid...this is a disaster. To introduce a single payer bill during the fight to save the ACA and as it turned out Medicaid was foolish since we have no chance of achieving single payer at this time. This bill hurt our efforts to save the ACA...and if you doubt my words, turn on the news.
LonePirate
(13,412 posts)Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)should not have been offered at this time...a valid point.
LonePirate
(13,412 posts)Still, that was not the topic of the OP.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)least those who are Democrats...so I wouldn't twist myself in knots to defend what I consider indefensible. Actions speak louder than words. I know how tough it was to pass the ACA and it won't happen easily again. And there will blame because it is a disaster if we lose the ACA and medicaid.
LonePirate
(13,412 posts)There's little to dispute in saying Sanders has a cult of followers who support him no matter what, much in the same way the deplorables blindly support and follow 45.
I share your view, though. I vote for candidates who share my views, or at least most of my views. If they stop supporting me or start voting against me and my views, I start voting for new candidates.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)But he could not do what needed to be done by himself ...no one can. We don't need a 'savior' ...we need a majority. And I can't see how the cult you describe has helps in that endeavor.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)forum by those who are supporters saying they don't care about the ACA but only single payer. While some Dems running for the presidency most likely co-sponsored the single payer bill...it was his bill. He sponsored it and introduced it. Trying to use Democrats to provide cover won't work. The bill was a bad idea at this time.
LonePirate
(13,412 posts)He had very little influence in the 2009 Senate. Any claims otherwise are revisionist history.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)timing. He has influence now and by introducing this bill, I believe many think there is some sort of a chance and there isn't. We would need a super majority...and that could be decades away. We also lose Medicaid. It was a foolish thing to introduce a bill for single payer during the fight to save the ACA.
LonePirate
(13,412 posts)As long as it does not increase the deficit (i.e., fully fund it) or violate the Byrd rule (which a Dem VP could do).
Everything the Repubs are doing now can be done by Dems once we regain the majority and the WH (hopefully no later than January 20, 2021)
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)estimates show a large price tag. Enacting a stand alone healthcare bill is very difficult and we would need 60 votes...it will cost way to much to do in reconciliation. And please note there are things even now the GOP can not do during reconciliation. No, if we lose healthcare, it will be decades before we have the votes for anything...we could have used the ACA to introduce a public option under reconciliation adding it to the existing bill...maybe even Medicare for those over 55...if it was done carefully...but not a full on bill. The ACA could not be passed under reconciliation...no healthcare bill could.
LonePirate
(13,412 posts)Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)be passed in reconciliation...Medicare for all needs 60 votes in the Senate.
LonePirate
(13,412 posts)Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)killing Medicaid. This is how it works...we won't have anything to work with. By the time we have majority...it will be too late.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,109 posts)and there is money to be had by killing Medicaid and the people who rely on Medicaid.
I hope the nation either storms the castle or goes on a GENERAL STRIKE
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_strike
if Graham kill the poor bill passes.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)TCJ70
(4,387 posts)...Eternal Underminer of Democratic values, who's not REALLY with the Dems on anything. I would think they'd be the first to acknowledge how vital his support was. He certainly didn't HAVE to vote for it. He's not a Democrat...remember?
LonePirate
(13,412 posts)He's not a hero to be worshipped or a misbehaving child to be punished. Reality and context need to be introduced to the discussion here.
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)...from what I've observed the Satan view is still firmly embedded in a few loud posters minds so deep they can't see anything past it. I see very little hero worship in comparison.
LonePirate
(13,412 posts)Most of the posts I see on DU about him are of the hero worship type. A lesser but still noticeable amount of what I see are critical of him. I typically stay on the first page of the Latest Threads section so ymmv, of course.
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)...but I would submit into evidence Demsrule86 as a prime example of what Im talking about. The narrative theyve built in their own mind that it will be Sanders fault if the ACA is repealed is...specious at best.
You dont see anything at that level on the savior side.
LonePirate
(13,412 posts)So, it is certainly not specious to say that Sanders' M4A announcement hasn't motivated Repubs to pass the GC bill.
irisblue
(32,950 posts)of Demsrule86?
I am asking for clarity.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)I have not heard much about it only single payer. I am sick of hearing about a bill that does not have a snowball's chance in hell of passing while the ACA and Medicaid are about to be repealed. I don't give a damn about one guy. I care about the thousands who will die over the many years we don't have health care if the ACA and Medicaid are gone.
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)...your posts are all the same anymore. If it has Sanders name on it, you hate it.
Yes, it will be very bad if the ACA is repealed. Literally no one here doesn't agree with that. At this point, however, there is nothing anyone can do to stop the Republicans from doing it if they decide to. If they do, it's no ones fault except their own. They've only been trying for 8 years.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)get single payer for decades...the public option combined with lowering the age of Medicare over time was always the way forward...now we have to get a super majority and push a new bill through (if God forbids the ACA goes down). I don't see that happening anytime soon... We have had two chances in the last 20 years for enough votes to pass a healthcare bill and that was after almost 100 years of trying. And of course the cherry on top is we also lose Medicaid. It was a disastrous move to introduce a single payer bill during our fight for the ACA.
Weekend Warrior
(1,301 posts)It was clearly the right move. Not sure why he should get special thanks. Seems that is what it's about these days.
Wish he would have joined Democrats in '07 in the fight for a pathway to citizenship. As you say, "from the Department of Looking at the Actual Goddamn Record."
Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)There is a theory floating around that Bernie is covertly working to destroy the ACA, that he knew that supporting single payer (which covers more people) would somehow strengthen the case for Graham-Cassidy (which covers fewer people), and that he also cunningly realized that the choice of specific date on which to introduce his Medicare for All bill would cause some (unnamed) Senator(s) to vote to repeal the ACA.
My point is that this theory is utter bullshit.
So it's not that he should get special thanks, but neither should he get special condemnation for supporting Medicare for All as a change for the better compared with the ACA, while of course continuing to oppose the changes for the worse offered by the Republicans.
The people who should get thanks are all the elected officials working to improve health care -- including Booker (whom I generally dislike but credit where it's due), Gillibrand, Harris, and over in the House Conyers and his 117 co-sponsors.
Weekend Warrior
(1,301 posts)I believe Sanders is not a strategist in any way. Therefore, I could not believe said theory to be accurate. I believe many of Sanders actions are damaging. I also believe it has to do with his inability to coalition build and lack of understanding when it comes to sound strategy. Over his career I believe his desires bern strong to make this country a better place. I do think he is now a full blown politician so his motives are a bit different than they have been. I still think in his mind his goals are righteous and thoughts are based in my best interests. He just doesn't know how to get from point a to point b in a constructive manner. Overall, what motivates him is something I take zero issue with over the span of his career as a politician. IOW, I do believe his track record is strong enough for me to not question his motives.
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
(107,837 posts)A cookie?
Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)For my part, however, I lack his breadth of vision. I want the silliness to stop.
This thread has not been complete flame war, though. It's been instructive. We can now see that, if the Graham-Cassidy bill passes the Senate, the "We aren't refighting the primary but we still hate Bernie" brigade will blame him.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)I don't think it is an attack to say that it was unwise in the extreme to do this. But yes, I will consider the single payer bill as contributing to the loss of the ACA and of course medicaid...should that happen. I don't "follow" any politician so I truly don't understand your point of view. I am a Democrat... I like most of them and would vote for all of them.
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
(107,837 posts)We're just baffled by the Bernie Worship.
He was one of 60 Senators who voted for the ACA. I'm glad he did but he doesn't deserve anymore credit than the rest.
In addition he's not the first person to sponsor a single payer bill. I believe John Conyers has done so every years since 2003.
Me.
(35,454 posts)vi5
(13,305 posts)...love to fall all over themselves to tell us how much we have to support and tolerate folks like Manchin or any other conservadem because "they vote with us 75% of the time!!!!!" but many of those same folks spend as much if not more time bitching about Bernie Sanders who votes with Dems way more than that and also votes for a Dem majority leader.
So a guy who votes with Dems 90+% of the time and votes for a Dem majority leader is somehow "less" than a guy who votes maybe with Dems 75% of the time and votes for a Dem majority leader simply because of some letter after their name. O.K. sure.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)ACA.
kstewart33
(6,551 posts)So tired of this. Just stop.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)KPN
(15,641 posts)This is disheartening to say the least. What will come of this if it continues is fewer democratic party voters in the end. Either we become more inclusive or less inclusive.
I happen to be in strong agreement with Bernie's view about our party ... as are many others. The party has moved way too far right on economic policy issues over the past 35 years. Some here think we should shut up (or Bernie at least should). How is the party more inclusive/stronger by telling others in effect to shut up about this? How is the party going to recover from its losses?
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Really?
Fact checking is "telling Bernie to shut up?"
Are you aware of the implications in those points of view?
KPN
(15,641 posts)Especially since we all know that all politicians embellish if not outright lie. Bernie did not lie.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Are you saying that Bernie shouldn't be expected to hold up to a fact check of his statements?
I mean, I know that you seem to equate Bernie with all that is good and right, and to be shown otherwise is difficult...
But your implication isn't complimentary to Bernie at all.
KPN
(15,641 posts)was YES.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Because Bernie should not be expected to hold up under a fact check, if it's not something you want to hear?
I mean confirmation bias is one thing, but to savage the messenger is something else....
He's human, and he's a career politician. A long time career politician.
KPN
(15,641 posts)Bernie at just about every opportunity here at DU and have gone above and beyond in finding and posting articles/blurbs/etc. that in any way reflect negatively on Bernie.
In my experience -- and I've been here for almost 67 years -- that pretty closely aligns with "having it in for" someone or something.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)"Are you saying that Bernie shouldn't be expected to hold up to a fact check of his statements? " to NO? After you said one post up that it was YES?
I'm getting whiplash here.
Or are you saying that whenever EHRNST presents a fact check on Bernie, it needs to be shot down?
Is Politifact "out to get Bernie" by "fact checking" him too?
My experience here has shown that when people don't want to hear something about someone they idolize, they will double down.
I see it with DT's supporters.... When you view facts as "an attack" on someone, it's time to take a look at what your confirmation biases are.
You do Bernie no favors by trying to quash any and all dissent and facts that aren't complimentary to him. He can take it...he's been in politics a very long time now.
KPN
(15,641 posts)Stop putting words in my mouth. My answer is YES -- I believe that you have it in for Bernie. It's that simple. Clear enough?
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Your words, not mine.
Look at the thread if you don't believe me.
I know that it sounds bad when it's said back to you, but you should own your confirmation biases, not try to scurry away from them when pointed out to you.
And do you think that Politifact has it out for Bernie? It was their factchecking. I was just the messenger...
KPN
(15,641 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Because it's easier that acknowledging that Politifact knows their fact checking.... and is considered a very reliable source on DU.
But just keep on trying to deflect, and dance away from your claim that fact checking Bernie is "going after him," because you don't like the messenger.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)to trot out that Politifact gave him a mostly false on that statement rather than go into the reasons they gave. They admit he added not insignificantly to the bill including $11 billion in funding for community health centers, but won't allow that he helped write it because they don't feel he was involved enough with crafting the core elements of the bill. That isn't an unfair analyses you just skip the analyses, which is much more positive to Senator Sanders, and trumpet the much more sensational mostly false rating. What you say is true as far as it goes, but it ignores parts of the Politifact article that give a different impression than you have presented here.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)sum up Politifact's conclusion.
"Bernie Sanders exaggerates with claim that he helped write Obamacare"
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/jan/18/bernie-s/fact-checking-bernie-sanders-claim-he-helped-write/
He also said that factchecking Bernie = "having it in for Bernie," and doubled down before he then said that was not the case, decided to post some non-sequiturs, and left...
But it's nice of you to come in and stick up for KBN when he's not doing so well.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)not sound bites.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)and not the kind that Fact Checking presents.
OK....
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)and ignored the explanation in the article that accompanied. That is some severe editing.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Last edited Wed Sep 20, 2017, 07:45 PM - Edit history (1)
Is that clearer?
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)you pointed to a headline and it summarizes the content. That summarization is necessarily editing so it is you who is proffering edited truth. I am just pointing out there is a lot more in the article than the phrase mostly false.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)tonedevil
(3,022 posts)the headline is true, but it is not the full story. Leaving out the part where Politifact does acknowledge Senator Sanders had significant input to the bill ignores critical facts that would give a different impression.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Last edited Thu Sep 21, 2017, 07:57 AM - Edit history (1)
and read it prior to firing off a rant, wouldn't it?
The OP also implies that he never opposed it, or threatened to hold his vote if he couldn't get what he wanted into it.
"If Bernie had agreed with them, he could easily have said, "I want single payer, I won't settle for anything less, and on that basis I'm voting Nay on invoking cloture to end the GOP filibuster of President Obama's bill."
That is directly refuted in Politifact analysis:
That's why I provided the link.
Is that clearer?
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Eliot Rosewater
(31,109 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)ucrdem
(15,512 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Fact checking is "telling Bernie to shut up?"
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)I don't understand how this is different than the right wing refusing to listen to DT get fact checked....
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)As for where the party is, apparently it "is" where most it's members want it to be, otherwise it wouldn't be there.
In 2016 we lost to candidates to the right. So what would moving even further left accomplish other than suffering greater defeats?
How can the party "recover from its losses" by candidates who lost to those on their right by moving even further from them?
Response to ehrnst (Reply #158)
Post removed
GaryCnf
(1,399 posts)But it was so much fun watching folks knocking down the straw man they had created that I just let it go.
I apologize.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)GaryCnf
(1,399 posts)called Bernie's claim that he helped w-r-i-t-e the ACA "mostly false." It is materially incorrect that Politifact said that it was "mostly false" that Bernie's vote was critical to ACA passage or that he supported the ACA. Because the OP said only that Bernie's vote was critical to ACA passage or that he supported the ACA and not that he had helped write the ACA, the reply stating that Politifact had determined that the substance of the OP was mostly false was likewise materially incorrect.
Might I suggest that next time you use crawdads or cheese.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)to the passing of the ACA.
The post also implies that he never opposed it, or threatened to hold his vote if he couldn't get what he wanted into it.
"If Bernie had agreed with them, he could easily have said, "I want single payer, I won't settle for anything less, and on that basis I'm voting Nay on invoking cloture to end the GOP filibuster of President Obama's bill."
That is directly refuted in Politifact analysis:
And on Dec. 18, the New York Times quoted Sanders saying, ''I don't sleep well. I am struggling with this issue very hard, trying to sort out what is positive in this bill, what is negative in the bill, what it means for our country if there is no health insurance legislation, when we will come back to it. And I have to combine that with the fact that I absolutely know that the insurance companies and the drug companies will be laughing all the way to the bank the day after this is passed.''
And I pointed out that Sanders' own statement on his involvement was fact checked by Politifact.
The article also included the fact that he used witholding his support as a threat in order to get what he wanted into the bill.
I included the link so that people could read the full text.
All relevant to the claim made by the OP.
Might I suggest that next time you want to flame a post that includes fact checking of Sanders, use crawdads or cheese.
GaryCnf
(1,399 posts)It stated correctly that Sanders' vote was critical to the passage of the ACA, a fact no one denies, nor could deny.
Politifact neither "checked" nor found "mostly false" the statement of the OP that Sanders' vote was critical or that, in the end, he supported the bill. Your reply was materially false.
Your current post is also inaccurate by way of omission. You state:
While Sanders, as would any erudite politician, used his critical vote as a bargaining chip for the addition of provisions which would have dramatically improved the bill AS THE BILL WAS BEING NEGOTIATED (making your statement accurate, but at the same time merely describing actions which are unremarkable in the context of the legislative process), it omits the fact that it was Sanders and other liberal politicians who sacrificed their personal goals for the bill and the centrists who did not.
Still not rising.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)"If Bernie had agreed with them, he could easily have said, "I want single payer, I won't settle for anything less, and on that basis I'm voting Nay on invoking cloture to end the GOP filibuster of President Obama's bill."
Actually he did say that if he didn't get his plan to implement single payer into the bill, he wouldn't settle for anything less, and would vote nay.
From the Politifact analysis:
Sanders backed down after Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., used a procedural move to force a full reading of Sanders bill, a move that would have taken hours of floor time and imperiled passage of a more moderate bill backed by Obama and his allies.
.......................................................................
"Public-option proponents, including Sanders and Sen. Sherrod Brown, D-Ohio, say they already have given up enough," Politico reported in late November 2009. "They agreed to forgo a single-payer system. They decided not to push a government plan tied to Medicare rates. And they accepted (Harry) Reid's proposal to include the opt-out provision. That's it, they say."
Politico went on to quote Sanders saying, "I have made it clear to the administration and Democratic leadership that my vote for the final bill is by no means guaranteed."
A few weeks later, Washington Post columnist Dana Milbank reported that Sanders was still undecided on supporting the primary Democratic bill. "I am talking to the Democratic leadership, trying my best to salvage some positive things in this bill, so I am not on board yet."
So Sanders' actions were 'remarkable.' I don't recall reading about any other politician that usually caucused with Dems threatening to tank the bill with a no vote if they didn't get their way - other than Lieberman, who threatened to filibuster if the Public Option was included.
Perhaps you have some information on others that did so? Please share.
Erudite does not = "my way or the highway."
GaryCnf
(1,399 posts)was not the only problem
http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/29/6/1117.full
"My way or the highway" is what centrists demanded and got in 2009. "For the good of the country" is what Sanders and other liberals gave in 2009.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)including those who fought for the public option in the ACA, including Pelosi (who got it in), Schumer and Reid are the "my way or the highway centrists" and not Liberals and Sanders - who threatened to hold his vote if he didn't get his way, then settled for less - was the "good of the country."
Because the post that I was responding to was saying that the only reason that the public option wasn't in was "key senators voted it down," as if every other dem just shrugged their shoulders and said, "OK."
So tell me - who are the other "liberals" that you are talking about?
George II
(67,782 posts)R B Garr
(16,950 posts)LOL
Voltaire2
(12,978 posts)Seems like some sort of personal attack on somebody, but who?
R B Garr
(16,950 posts)Voltaire2
(12,978 posts)But what? Perhaps a link would help.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)And yeah, you called me a liar.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Last edited Thu Sep 21, 2017, 07:56 AM - Edit history (1)
on fire? Because if you are not saying they are lying, you are saying that my pants are on fire, are you not?
The Politifact analysis said that his statement that he "helped write" it was exaggerated.
"So theres a good case to be made that Sanders made an important contribution to the final legislation.
Still, when Sanders says he "helped write" the bill, it would be reasonable to imagine that Sanders was an integral player in the crafting of the bill over a long period of time -- an insider in the process. And thats not the reality."
The OP also implies that he never opposed it, or threatened to hold his vote if he couldn't get what he wanted into it.
"If Bernie had agreed with them, he could easily have said, "I want single payer, I won't settle for anything less, and on that basis I'm voting Nay on invoking cloture to end the GOP filibuster of President Obama's bill."
That is directly refuted in Politifact analysis:
"Politico went on to quote Sanders saying, "I have made it clear to the administration and Democratic leadership that my vote for the final bill is by no means guaranteed."
I would say that those who wrote the bill were vital, and those that threatened to pull support if they didn't get their way were not.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,294 posts)Politifact notes he voted for the ACA. And the vote was 60-39, so his vote, like every one for it, was crucial. That's what the OP said. And not what Politifact said was 'false'. So your post is a red herring.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)The post also implies that he never opposed it, or threatened to hold his vote if he couldn't get what he wanted into it.
"If Bernie had agreed with them, he could easily have said, "I want single payer, I won't settle for anything less, and on that basis I'm voting Nay on invoking cloture to end the GOP filibuster of President Obama's bill."
That is directly refuted in Politifact analysis:
muriel_volestrangler
(101,294 posts)You keep on reading into the OP things that aren't there. So much so that it seems all your posts are irrelevant in this thread.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)"Bernie has long supported single payer. When the ACA was being debated in Congress, many single-payer supporters urged that it be voted down. Their argument (which has some merit to it) was that enactment of the ACA would further entrench the role of the big for-profit private insurance companies, and make getting to single payer that much harder.
If Bernie had agreed with them, he could easily have said, "I want single payer, I won't settle for anything less, and on that basis I'm voting Nay on invoking cloture to end the GOP filibuster of President Obama's bill."
Actually, he did indeed do very similar to that...which him not doing is the basis for the claim in the OP headline.
He tried to make changes to the ACA that would transform it into single payer, and threatened to withold his vote if he didn't get his way.
From the Politifact analysis:
Sanders backed down after Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., used a procedural move to force a full reading of Sanders bill, a move that would have taken hours of floor time and imperiled passage of a more moderate bill backed by Obama and his allies.
However, as negotiations were in their final stage, Sanders successfully pushed for the inclusion of $11 billion in funding for community health centers, especially in rural areas. The insertion of this funding helped bring together both Democratic lawmakers on the left and Democrats representing more conservative, rural areas.
However, he once again threatened to pull support over the the lack of public option, which was being fought for very hard by Democrats (and which Pelosi had secured in the Congressional bill):
Politico went on to quote Sanders saying, "I have made it clear to the administration and Democratic leadership that my vote for the final bill is by no means guaranteed."
A few weeks later, Washington Post columnist Dana Milbank reported that Sanders was still undecided on supporting the primary Democratic bill. "I am talking to the Democratic leadership, trying my best to salvage some positive things in this bill, so I am not on board yet."
So, no. That part of the OP is not supported by the fact checking that Politifact did on Sanders' role in the ACA.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,294 posts)That's the basic fact you are desperately trying to ignore. Because of that, your whole outlook is slanted away from reality and into some neverending fight you want with people who like single payer. And your posts continue to be red herrings that aren't worth further analysis.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)The OP:
If Bernie had agreed with them, he could easily have said, "I want single payer, I won't settle for anything less, and on that basis I'm voting Nay on invoking cloture to end the GOP filibuster of President Obama's bill."
That implies that he didn't say anything like that, but he did demand single payer, and threatened to withold his yay vote.
Which is much closer than saying he didn't say something like that.
Rather self-righteous, but not quite right. The record actually showed:
Sanders backed down after Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., used a procedural move to force a full reading of Sanders bill, a move that would have taken hours of floor time and imperiled passage of a more moderate bill backed by Obama and his allies.
However, as negotiations were in their final stage, Sanders successfully pushed for the inclusion of $11 billion in funding for community health centers, especially in rural areas. The insertion of this funding helped bring together both Democratic lawmakers on the left and Democrats representing more conservative, rural areas.
However, he once again threatened to pull support over the the lack of public option, which was being fought for very hard by Democrats (and which Pelosi had secured in the Congressional bill):
Politico went on to quote Sanders saying, "I have made it clear to the administration and Democratic leadership that my vote for the final bill is by no means guaranteed."
A few weeks later, Washington Post columnist Dana Milbank reported that Sanders was still undecided on supporting the primary Democratic bill. "I am talking to the Democratic leadership, trying my best to salvage some positive things in this bill, so I am not on board yet."
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/jan/18/bernie-s/fact-checking-bernie-sanders-claim-he-helped-write/
People who proclaim that "the actual goddamned record shows" get more credibility when they provide the documentation, instead of simply posting an applause line.
Is that clearer?
muriel_volestrangler
(101,294 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)To quote you, "This has been a message from the Department of Looking at the Actual Goddamn Record. We now return you to your regularly scheduled flame war."
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Every one of those 60 votes was "crucial."
Bernie is not entitled to an ass-kissing for his vote.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)As long as it's been around has absolutely nothing to do with any success they have. If they succeed this time it is 100% Sanders fault!!!
George II
(67,782 posts)Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)and Republican votes are needed to stop repeal. Meanwhile, a single payer health care bill is introduced which has no chance of being anything other than a way for Republicans to rally their base against ACA.
MadDAsHell
(2,067 posts)The irony of the ACA will always astound me. You take the health insurance system that for decades you've been saying is terrible, and you pass a law that literally DOUBLES DOWN on that system.
When I learned that the ACA was not only going to preserve employment-based insurance but actually REQUIRE that employers provide it, I thought I was going crazy.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)An incremental approach shouldn't "drive you crazy" if it works....
MadDAsHell
(2,067 posts)Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
(107,837 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Response to Jim Lane (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Recommended.
TomCADem
(17,387 posts)It seems like once every two weeks, Bernie Sanders will say that the Democrats are failures as a party and blame whatever Republican atrocity on the Democrats failure to follow his lead on something or another.
Weekend Warrior
(1,301 posts)He whipped up support among Democrats and held them.
Guess it's about Sanders.