I keep watching the Vietnam War and it just makes me angry

[question everything]

At the conclusion of today's installment, we are told that by the end of 1967, more than 20,000 Americans were killed in Vietnam. And I was thinking: and we have 38,000 more to go!

And if in the first years we did not know, yet, what we were getting into, to be charitable, by now Johnson and Westmoreland continued to send more troops, waiting for the balance of death - do not remember the term - when there are no more North Vietnamese and Vietcong to replace the ones being killed. And this "goal" never reaches, even though Westmorelnad continued to promise that we were almost there.

In today's installment - 1967 - he thinks that the war would continue for two more years.

And there are the delusional, idealistic troops there, including West Point graduates, one of them is shocked when two of his classmates were killed shortly after they arrived there.

The North Vietnamese figured that they should be as close as they could to the Americans, so that they could not get air cover.

Indeed, in a few seconds 42 were dead because some of the bombs fell on them.

And then, the stupidity, the vanity of taking control over stupid, insignificant hills close to Cambodia where so many of them were killed and wounded.

And American pilots get shot. One of the first one - don't remember his name, from yesterday installment - thought that he would be treated as POW and be released shortly. He did not think that it would take 8 and a half years.

And in October 1967 John McCain was shot. He broke several bones which were adjusted without even an aspirin. He was tortured after an interview by a French journalist because they thought he was not grateful enough.

But, hey, according to Whiny Donny McCain was not a hero

And in 1967 we are starting to see the protests in the streets against the war.

Next installment - on Sunday (I can use a break) is in 1968 which, of course, was in interesting year, to say the least.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. It is so well done. I feel a lot of sorrow, watching it.

I was a newlywed wife, and then a mom, during 1965 and 66...my brother went to Viet Nam as a second Lieutenant in 1966.

He came home a year later.

There's a lot in these episodes that I didn't know. The back stories about the planning, the history of the French and so on.

It is very intense, so we're recording it and watching it in smaller sections than those originally broadcast. It prolongs the agony but it's easier to take in smaller bits.

Ken Burns does excellent work.

[NRaleighLiberal]

2. we just started tonight (back from vacation) - through first episode and half of the second

already an incredibly tangled complex web. It is quite incredible - the years being covered in the second episode is when I was only 5-6 years old. One of those important productions that can't be called enjoyable - but clearly very relevant.

and clearly, from our misadventures in Afghanistan, we've learned nothing.

[TeeYiYi]

3. You can watch...

...the unedited (explicit language version) at pbs.org

TYY

[CountAllVotes]

5. Hey thanks!

I don't have the magic thingy to watch it but I do have PBS!

[Tanuki]

23. Thanks for the link! My cable is not working and I have been too busy to schedule repair.

I really wanted to watch the series ASAP., and now I can!

[gopiscrap]

42. thanks

[CountAllVotes]

4. Vietnam sucked so bad!

I guess that is how suck ass things had to get to get people out on the streets protesting.

I remember going to one of the big peace marches in S.F. w/my late father. Even he, the former Marine corps. sargent in WWII, was against it.

My brother enlisted having not a thing else to do in life. Such the fool he was.

It was not a good time but it sure hatched out a lot of great music!

[FuzzyRabbit]

20. The music!

When I think of the 1960s I think of the good - the music. I love the music of the 1960s.

I think we forget how intense the entire decade was. The Cold War, the civil rights movement, the Vietnam War, the riots, the anti-war demonstrations. Perhaps some things I have forgotten. Oh, yes, the hippies, the scariest thing of all to our parents.

Most adults were scared spitless by all the unrest - they didn't know what to make of it. How could blacks and young people turn against everything that was Christian, American, and good?

But out of all this came an explosion of creative popular music. From doo-wop to girl groups to folk to folk rock to psychedelic and blues and jazz and the British Invasion. The energy that drove the music was the events of the 1960s.

[SergeStorms]

22. That's how I put the 60s in perspective.

I grew up in a small, rural town, and if you think things were confusing for city folk? Wow! You should have grown up in the sticks. I was the first in our town to crave the changes the 60s were bringing. My father was the local Town Justice, and his son turned into a hippie counter-culture weirdo! If my Dad had not been an influential Town Official, I think I may have had a very tough time living there. I brought so much "shame" to my family (their words, not mine), but I was their introduction to the coming events that would frame a nation, and they were grateful later in life that I was the "avant-garde" member of the family. I certainly opened their eyes to a "brave new world".

Weird times, and the chronological musicology of the times are the soundtrack of my life. My iPod testifies to that, with about 42 straight hours of classic Rock, R&B, MoTown, Acid-Rock, Blues..... everything that music had to offer from the times. I can remember where I was, and what I was doing to every one of those tunes. Talk about flashbacks! Vietnam and Civil Rights were the over-riding backdrop to these turbulent times.

I received educational deferments (Trump's were for "bone spurs" ) until the early 70s, and just lucked out that I was never drafted after that. I'd already been for my "pre-induction physical', and my lottery number was 126. By any standard I should have been drafted. I'll never know why I wasn't, although I suspect my Dad had something to do with it. He was friends with all the men on our County Draft Board, and I always wondered if they pulled some strings to keep me safe stateside. My Dad, a staunch Republican, was ready to send me to Canada rather than go fight in an unjust war. Another "Do as I say, not as I do" GOP hypocrite.

I could go on forever about the 60s and 70s, but for the sake of brevity and an aversion to "vanity" posts, I'll stop here. Peace!

[dogman]

6. This was McNamara's war at this point.

The successful private sector provided us with a man who could get things done. The production line opened and the conveyor fed troops to the area. Mass production designed buy our corporate benefactors. Notice any similarities to today? This was my biggest frustration with W's war. Doomed to repeat history and all.

[dalton99a]

7. And McNamara knew he was full of shit, but hey, his business charts looked great

[mountain grammy]

8. We made it to 3 and taking a break.

Husband was there in 1970..got a long way to go. don't think he'll go there.

[spanone]

9. it made me angry then, it makes me angry now

[LeftInTX]

10. The helicopter was ubiquitous in Vietnam due to lack of runway space.

My dad flew in Korea (B29s), but in Vietnam, he flew a De Havilland Caribou (prop-job, small transport) He was too old to be a B52 bomber anyway. They would create these makeshift runways. He was shot trying to get out of a spot, fortunately his gun was hit and he wasn't. He managed to fly his plane out of there. I assume he was not in VC territory when he was shot.

[Xolodno]

11. Why stop there?

If MacArthur obeyed command, heeded the Chinese Government we refused to recognize...and to some extent, realize the Soviets were curious how things would go "metal to metal". North Korea would either not exist..or be a Chinese "protectorate".

Then we could look at World War One, where some historians exclaim World War Two was still World War One...just put on pause. You had monarchies fight each other, monarchies who were fighting each other, but were still family....

Of course back then, family was "relative". Marriage was for the purpose of status/politics/money/etc. I could go on how family wasn't wasn't family and more a friendship..but that gets beyond this discussion. Plus, WW2 had plenty of economic consequences due to WW1....well, that gets long.

[NobodyHere]

27. I've watched documentaries and read books about WWI

But I still can't figure out why anyone thought that was a good idea.

[Xolodno]

37. Real estate grab, resource plunder, prestige.....

The war was fought primarily in Europe, but it was all about territory everywhere else in Asia, Africa, etc. plus territory they felt entitled to. Both sides thought they would win rather quickly, thinking they would have the upper hand.

For example, if the Russian Revolution never happened and stayed in the war, Russia was going to get Istanbul...rename it back to Constantinople and pretty much the Russian Patriarch of the Orthodox Church would become the "First Among Equals". Plus it would bolster Russia's claim to being the inheritor of the Roman Empire. They were also going to get a big chunk, if not all of, Korea. Which would set them up in a good spot for Russo-Japan war part 2....which did eventually happen in WW2.

But that didn't happen, so France and Britain pretty much got everything they wanted and then some...which would ironically overextend them. Arab revolts in the Mid-East really taxed the British and French Armies at times, so much so, they had to leave some areas in open revolt until they quelled one, so they could move on to the other.

The economic reasons, resources. Maintaining and empire requires resources the home country doesn't have or can't continue to appropriate. Even if you don't need the resources immediately, having them in reserve was important for future use. Remember, Europe had just went through the industrial revolution and manufacturing was key to their economic success. For example, they didn't have the ability to find oil easily yet, but the logic was, if there was oil in one place, there might be more nearby.

But yes, real estate grab, resource plunder, prestige, "empire penis size", etc. is what led to it. You could say, they were planning it the entire time....but assumed the other guy wasn't, which led to the shit storm that it was.

[CanonRay]

12. We taped it and just watched the first one

My wife found it depressing.

[Elwood P Dowd]

13. The balance of death thing you mention is called the "crossover point".

I was drafted during that shit, but thanks to the luck of the draw was given a permanent duty station for my 2 year stint in the States. Lots of friends and Army basic training buddies went over there, and a couple of them didn't make it back alive. The ones exposed to the really bad shit didn't want to talk about it and still don't to this day. Some of them came back really messed up mentally, and drugs/alcohol did them in before they made 60.

[wasupaloopa]

38. I was drafted in 1966. Came home from the war in March 68 right after Tet.

I wasn't sure I would make it during Tet

[Not Ruth]

14. America was racist

They thought that the little yellow people were not smart enough or tough enough.

[CountAllVotes]

16. WAS?

I think it is just as bad now but many live in the closet and embrace their racism to the very core of their existence sadly.

[Not Ruth]

19. Racism-It was an explanation of why America lost to Vietnam and may still lose to North Korea

[raven mad]

15. ......

[Laffy Kat]

17. That's what I'm afraid of!

I wanted to see it but I know I'll just get upset.

[LeftInTX]

28. I'm upset over South Vietnam's leadership.

Diem was South Vietnam's corrupt president from 1954-1963. Just awful.

Why were we helping them? They never wanted us. It wasn't a case of them getting tired of us. They never wanted us there in the first place. The S Vietnamese would alert the N Vietnamese when Americans were in the area. This was way back in 1963.

Then they overthrew Diem in a coup and installed a new regime every month or so. I have no idea if there was any leadership at all in that country by 1966.

[BigmanPigman]

18. I wonder if they will mention the massacre at My Lai in 1969.

Last edited Sat Sep 23, 2017, 04:21 PM - Edit history (2)

I have studied Vietnam for over 35 years and even though I am familiar with much that I see on the series so far, all I can say while I watch it is "Oh shit", "then don't do it" and "that is really fucked up".

The only good that came out of that war is some of the best rock and roll songs ever.

Thanks for letting me know it wouldn't be on again until Sunday.

[MrPurple]

31. I'm sure Burns will spend plenty of time on My Lai, William Calley et al.

It was a major event that was thought emblematic of the war and Burns definitely won't shy away from it. Calley was the only one convicted and then had his sentence overturned. And the "love it or leave it" future Trump supporters took the side of the murderers.

[BigmanPigman]

32. I wonder if they interviewed him for the series since he is still alive.

I am surprised they didn't interview Daniel Ellsburg when they covered the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. But I did read a few articles and Burns wanted to show the Vietnamese point of view and the Vietnamese survivors and citizens who are usually overlooked when reflecting on the history of the war.

[MrPurple]

46. Interesting, Ellsburg has gotten a lot of coverage,Calley & the other soldiers from hisunit haven't

I hope Burns goes into My Lai episode and the US reaction around it. I've read reports that there were other smaller incidents, like My Lai that were covered up.

[Snackshack]

35. They are going into such

Great detail I don't see how they could not spend some time on that event. Listening to a Joe Rogan podcast with Ken Burns an Lynn Novick they discuss the actions of Nixon and his campaign during 68 in the peace talks that LBJ called treasonous.

[kentuck]

47. I think My Lai was in 1968?

Just a few weeks after the Tet Offensive.

Many GI's were still bummed from the attacks on Tet that killed many of our friends.

It was not uncommon to hear, "Kill the little gooks...they will just grow up to be big gooks"...

[BigmanPigman]

49. You're right , it did. The word started to get out by the end of 68

and in 1969 the shit hit the fan after Meadlo finally told the real story to a reporter.

[zentrum]

21. War is a racket.nt

[Ken Burch]

24. Good song for this thread:

[LeftInTX]

25. I watched the second episode was really upset by the Diem regime

I did not know it was that bad and I did not know that South Vietnam was such a mess. Diem's sister-in-law reminded me of Imelda Marcos. And then after the coup, they had a regime change every month or so. Good God, we had no business being there.

Fast forward to Iraq...the neocons just had to repeat Vietnam to prove that they could "get it right". Cheney was very bitter over Vietnam and blamed the loss in Vietnam on the liberals in DC.

I hope Cheney and Rumsfeld are watching this series.

[elleng]

26. stupidity and vanity

[Kath2]

29. Watching it too.

What a tragedy.

[Snackshack]

30. It is a...

Remarkable series evoking a wide range of emotions...anger being just one them.

[Binkie The Clown]

33. Like the Civil War, it is of the past.

Get educated, by all means, but getting angry is a waste of energy. The people you're angry at are mostly out of the picture; dead or retired, so your anger serves no purpose.

On Edit: Full Disclosure: I really got angry when two of my favorite characters were brutally murdered on Game of Thrones, so take my advice with a large grain of salt. In other words, do as I say, not as I do.

[wasupaloopa]

39. To us who were in the war the past is hard to forget

[Binkie The Clown]

40. I spent my share of the Vietnam war in the Air Force...

...in Texas, patching tires and cleaning spark plugs. I served less than a year before getting a medical discharge and going back to civilian computer programming. I sort of expected that with prior computer experience I'd end up doing that in the service, but in their infinite wisdom they saw fit to put me in the motor pool. Got very sick, went to the hospital for a while, and got sent back home. Two of my high school buddies died over there. I guess getting sick and flunking out was lucky in its own twisted way.

[Warren DeMontague]

34. It is making me sick to my stomach as we speak.

I'm almost done with #3, that's bad enough.

[wasupaloopa]

36. I was there in 1967 and 68. We were really stunned to see fighting

at the US embassy in Saigon. It was Tet 1968. We watched it on TV

[Upthevibe]

41. As expected, Ken Burns has out done himself.....It's excellent. And yes,

it's kind of mind blowing that it all happened.....A lot of really bad decisions were made....And 58,000 or our guys were killed

[Beringia]

43. And 3,000,000 Vietnamese were killed

The last episode, they said a tiger special force was brought in and all of the men except one raped a Vietnamese woman and then killed her. That really stayed with me. How could they be so heroic and brave and so depraved at the same time. And they were reported on, but never were convicted of it.

[Baclava]

44. To start - LBJ was a lying sack of shit, and the fucking French started it and made it worse

JFK had it right, in the beginning it was a scenario of us protecting French colonialism or letting the people of Vietnam decide how to run their county.

They could have ended the escalation in '64 but neither side was giving in, Uncle Ho lost control of the North to his generals or they could have won it just by waiting for the South's govt. to collapse on it's own, instead of attacking and forcing the US to get more involved. Both sides badly misjudged the other.

Body count was no measure of "winning" when you didn't hold territory, escalation of bombing when they knew there wasn't a winning strategy by '67. It only gets worse.

[MariaCSR]

45. Yo, that POW footage of McCain was HARD TO WATCH

When he was lying on that bed talking to the French reporter and he choked up, I lost it. I know he's a Republican, but I respect him for what he went through.

[Paladin]

48. Piece-of-shit war. So glad I actively protested against it.

I hadn't intended on watching Burns' series, but I got hooked after the first episode. It's as good as anything he's ever done. The worst part of the Vietnam War? This big dumb country didn't learn much of anything from it.