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samnsara
(18,767 posts)... when I first heard about it I thought it was just kinda goofy but now I am realllllllly worried.
Demsrule86
(71,542 posts)and cruel.My fear is that he will use this issue to jump start a run for the president...running on single payer which is not the issue to run regardless of its merits. It opens the door for GOP demonetization. They can't do this with the ACA. I truly think Sen. Sander's future is at stake.... meaning a presidential run in 20.Should we lose the ACA, he will be blamed in the end...and one can come to their own conclusion if that is fair or not.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)This is a disaster in the making. I hope someone can talk him down.
karynnj
(60,949 posts)during the election.
Sanders worked wirh McCain to get a bill for the VA which passed the Senate. He also was one of the people who contributed to making ACA what it is.
Even going back to his days as mayor of Burlington, he was very good getting people involved and finding workable compromizes. He knows what ACA has done and will defend it.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)to the party, to the country, I will work until my dying breath to make sure he never gets a shot at representing our party. I'm furious at him for this and yes, he will be to blame for taking the spotlight OFF the republican bill.
Response to leftynyc (Reply #9)
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lillypaddle
(9,606 posts)"We" do not want him representing our party.
Response to lillypaddle (Reply #118)
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lillypaddle
(9,606 posts)Get over yourself. Bernie should do the same.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)And I'm sure plenty of other "true progressives" don't think you speak for them either.
You speak for yourself. Period.
And it sounds like you want to be in a cult, not a political party.
Response to EffieBlack (Reply #132)
Name removed Message auto-removed
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)MrsCoffee
(5,825 posts)The Democrats had their most progressive platform ever during Hillary Clinton's GE run. Here you are tossing out sound bytes like we're Faux News watchers or something.
stonecutter357
(13,045 posts)
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)MrsCoffee
(5,825 posts)What the fuck are you on about?
NBachers
(19,421 posts)
pangaia
(24,324 posts)I would lean more toward, oh, I don't know, how about republican freaks.
AlleganCarpenter
(25 posts)Here’s the deal: Let’s put the Bernie debate aside for a while. Conservative donors, nearly all them oil oligarchs, are threatening to cut off the money supply to the current congress critters who don’t repeal ObamaCare. Conservative, they are not. They have money but we have people.
I know you all called over the past couple of days. We need to keep phones ringing in Washington. Contact a friend. Maybe contact two and have a calling party. Have some tea. Have a cup of coffee. Be happy warriors as you go into another day’s battle. You know you are in the right defending the ACA. We can have the MediCare for all debate after next week.
Sen. Portman 202-224-3353 Ohio
Sen. Murkowski 202-224-6665 option 3 Alaska
Sen. Collins 202-224-2523 Maine
Sen. Capito 202-224-6472 West Virginia
Sen. McCain 202-224-2235 Arizona
Sen. Moran 202-224-6521 Kansas
Sen. Gardner 202-224- 5491 Colorado
CrispyQ
(40,936 posts)Quit all the hand wringing & get on the phone! And post these numbers on FB & every social site you go!
Thanks! You have 2 numbers I didn't have.
MuseRider
(35,176 posts)This is utterly ridiculous and makes us all look like fools.
Make calls. If our party feels the same way about him that people here seem to think they do then they will remove him from his leadership role and stop working with him and not sign on to co sponsor his bills.
If they signed it purely for politics because they want to run in 2020, as has been mentioned a few times, then they are the people you should be mad at. Call them up and call them the names you are calling Bernie. Oh yes, they have the (D) so they are not dirty for co-sponsoring this bill at the wrong time, just Bernie (I).
If he is such a joke and irritant (posted down thread with not one single support other than because I know) then why is he where he is right now? Horrid Bernie (I) could never get to such an important place in the Democratic party all by himself now could he? Did he threaten someone's cat? Hmmmm.
Apparently OUR PARTY (D) is not mad at Bernie. Apparently OUR PARTY (D) does not consider him such a spoiler and irritant.
So, given that we have a party (D) that allows Bernie (I) to be involved and Bernie (I) has gone out of his way to organize and run around 170 rallies to keep the ACA I think we should give up all the sour grapes and learn to live with him.
It feels like a neener neener grade school spat here and this really does make us look stupid. Make the calls. Forget about hating on Bernie (I). He is who he is and he is working for you. Be mad at the people who cosigned his bill if you think it is wrong. I guarantee he did not sit on them and promise not to let them up until they signed it. They wanted to, be mad at them. If he had no support he might not have brought it up yet. Personally I think it paints a pretty picture of what we (I) and (D) stand for against what the (R) are trying to do.
CALL, I did and I still found time to write my post. 
RandomAccess
(5,210 posts)Other than your post (and maybe one or two others), the ONLY good thing about this OP is that there are 315 posts but only 57 recommendations.
I want to quote Professor Plum w/re to the OP: This post helps Russia.
MuseRider
(35,176 posts)Great Professor Plum quote.
If you look down the thread you will find how Bernie himself is (maybe, probably, who knows?) helping Russia himself. Remember that Tad Devine used to work with Manafort and Bernie voted against the sanctions on Russia. Hmmmmmm
Looks like we are ALL helping Russia.
I am sorry, this may get removed but that IS down thread and it IS really, well I really should not have to say what that is.
Gothmog
(179,378 posts)Last edited Fri Sep 22, 2017, 03:17 PM - Edit history (1)
G_j
(40,568 posts)
oasis
(53,633 posts)
sprinkleeninow
(22,325 posts)I put call into Sen. Alexander's Chattanooga office yesterday. Was polite in asking him to consider a NO vote on repeal of ACA. I read on another thread about TN.
Next, an email to our 'R' Senator.
I'm gettin' dizzy....
Snackshack
(2,585 posts)Thank you for the number and your attempt at "cooler heads prevailing".
However this Bernie Sanders were talking about here and some will never be able to remove/control the emotion attached to Bernie after last year.
lamp_shade
(15,467 posts)jalan48
(14,914 posts)"Scarborough was previously a lawyer and a politician, and served in the United States House of Representatives from 1995 to 2001 as a Republican from the 1st district of Florida." -Wikipedia
Comcast, who Joe works for, is a media conglomerate with a value estimated at $193 Billion
Is this what DU has come to?
lamp_shade
(15,467 posts)
jalan48
(14,914 posts)lamp_shade
(15,467 posts)jalan48
(14,914 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Senator Sanders, from what I've seen on DU.
Then it's "trashing."
Demsrule86
(71,542 posts)
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)All television political talk show hosts (all of them) work for large corporations or conglomerates. Don't know what the worth of a conglomerate has to do with anything.
You work for someone. Does that mean you don't take political positions that your employer doesn't want you to?
That's just utter nonsense. Joe has enough power on HIS show to state any opinion he wants. MSNBC is glad to have him making them a ton of money. It's not the other way around.
I've watched him on tv for years, before the MJ show. He's been a moderate Repub, and fair (but he IS a Repub, so I accept that that's where he was coming from). He is no longer a Repub.
His sidekick Mica also works for the same corporation.
All the paid pundits on the show work for the same corporation.
Rachel Maddow works for the same corporation. So does Lawrence O'Donnell.
The Washington Post and NYT journalists and columnists work for large corporations. That really is irrelevant to the work of journalism and political talk shows, when there's an important host; it's written in the contracts that the hosts dictate the content, freedom of expression and views, etc.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Many good people work for corporations. This baseless crap has got to end.
No comment on Joe except - no one should be giving him ammo to make Dems look bad right now.
Gothmog
(179,378 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Gothmog
(179,378 posts)Rachel is must see TV for me
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)R B Garr
(17,980 posts)so arguing against them is just inane. Corporations are not people. I can't imagine how useless it sounds to the everyday people who have jobs. 
Get elected and impose regulations and taxes. Just uttering "corporations" is meaningless and really just sounds sophomoric.
Gothmog
(179,378 posts)Do you want us to stop watching Rachel or AMJOY because of Comcast? I am still planning on watching the Rachel Maddow Show and AMJOY.
Why is Morning Joe being a lawyer bad? There are a number of lawyers who are strong Democrats who post on this board?
LexVegas
(6,959 posts)
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)and by presenting the extreme of single payer will get the republicans to admit that the ACA is a good middle ground.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)That's not going to happen. Nuance is lost on those people. They're binary thinkers. If they think Sanders sounds nuts, they are going to support the only other alternative they're looking at right now – the Republicans and Trumpcare.
yardwork
(69,303 posts)I don't understand why the push for single payer didn't wait until after October 1.
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)The Graham-Cassidy bill was in the works before that MFA bill was brought out. What makes you think it was the cause of the latest repeal bill?
yardwork
(69,303 posts)Republicans stated that the single payer initiative scared their stakeholders and prompted this last-ditch effort to repeal ACA.
NickB79
(20,329 posts)I dont.
Demsrule86
(71,542 posts)
Fresh_Start
(11,365 posts)it requires deep insight into the other players possible and probable actions.
Bernie makes no attempt to think about consequences of his actions.
Demit
(11,238 posts)Demsrule86
(71,542 posts)We wont get MFA and may lose the ACA and Medicaid. This is called losing for those of us who embrace reality.
KPN
(17,351 posts)By the latest news, i'd say quite the opposite.
Just because you don't agree with Bernie, his supporters or the 16 or so co-sponsors doesn't mean you are right. You are quite likely wrong on this one. And maybe you are even in the minority.
Demsrule86
(71,542 posts)KPN
(17,351 posts)You are overthinking this thing. Repealing isn't going to happen, especially when juxtaposed to Medicare for All.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)And I believe that he attracts those who have a "my way or the highway" point of view.
It makes for a very dynamic protest, and allows for banning any dissenters, but that kind of movement doesn't last, precisely because of all those it excludes.
BLM will do far better, because they are far more inclusive, and have far fewer purity tests.
greatauntoftriplets
(178,945 posts)
The Wizard
(13,717 posts)For the rest of the world single payer is normal. We have the world's most expensive healthcare because of the way it's structured. Healthcare for profit (our system) is both immoral and predatory. Don't fall into the Republican trap of framing the normal as extreme. It's about time we stop extorting the American people for the benefit of the Insurance lobby and its Congressional handmaidens who see all legislation as a means to send bribe money to their off shore money laundry accounts.
brer cat
(27,559 posts)but single-payer is not the only option, and further, I think you are wrong that it is "normal" in the rest of the world. This is from an NPR article from last year on single-payer.
Which Countries Have Single-Payer Health Systems?
There are fewer than many people might think. Most European countries either never had or no longer have single-payer systems. "Most are basically what we call social insurance systems," says Gerard Anderson, a professor at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health who has studied international health systems. Social insurance programs ensure that almost everyone is covered. They are taxpayer-funded but aren't necessarily run by the government.
Germany, for example, has 135 "sickness funds," which are essentially private, nonprofit insurance plans that negotiate prices with health care providers. "So you have 135 funds to choose from," said Anderson.
Nearby, Switzerland and the Netherlands require their residents to have private insurance (just like the Affordable Care Act does), with subsidies to help those who cannot otherwise afford coverage.
And while conservatives in the United States often use Great Britain's National Health Service as the poster child for a socialized system, there are many private insurance options available to residents there, too.
As far as countries that have true single-payer systems, Anderson lists only two: Canada and Taiwan.
http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/01/22/463976098/debate-sharpens-over-single-payer-health-care-but-what-is-it-exactly
NastyRiffraff
(12,448 posts)I mean, you have to be. Surely you know that the Republicans have been trying to repeal the ACA ever since it was passed. That's repeal; they've never cared about replace. You can't seriously think that they'll say "oh, never mind, it's better than single payer" when this whole thing is about giving their donors tax cuts.
They don't give a shit about the replace part; it's a tax cut bill that also fulfills their years-long dream of repealing the ACA.
global1
(26,507 posts)and settling for less right from the start. Bernie is taking to the extreme here and I'm sure he'll take a compromise to fix ACA as that solves the immediate problem and also moves us closer to a Medicare For All system in the future.
Please get off of Bernie's back cause I know of no Dem out there that is doing more to discuss the real issues on a very simple - common sense basis than him.
Please read his new book "Bernie Sanders Guide To Political Revolution" and maybe you'll understand him better.
He's not making excuses for why he lost. He's actually discussing the issues and attempting to move the ball down the field. More so than many Dems that call themselves Dems.
We can wallow in the past - or we can set our sights on a better future. I'm with setting our sights on a better future.
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)when he brought the medicare for all bill up. How much more evidence do people need to see Sen Sanders has no loyalty to the Democratic party - which makes perfect sense when you remember he's not a Democrat. I'm furious at him for taking the spotlight off the putrid republican bill that may very well get passed this time because of Sanders.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)He doesn't care about the Democrats. He doesn't care about the people who will be grievously harmed if ACA is repealed. He's just interested in Bernie and his "movement."
CherokeeFiddle
(297 posts)that he is trying to insure everybody in America. Pretty much the exact opposite of being selfish.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)If he didn't hold everyone else to a higher standard than he holds himself.
CherokeeFiddle
(297 posts)And we're Democrats, we SHOULD have ideals. That is what makes us, well us.
RandiFan1290
(6,710 posts)brooklynite
(96,882 posts)AFTER NEXT WEEK, the Republicans can't use reconciliation, and therefore won't be able to pass anything. THEN we can have a debate on better health care.
themaguffin
(5,206 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)And he has cultivated that brand, "Our Revolution," with a PAC and a book. It makes sense he would seize the opportunity to call attention to his branded health care "Medicare for All" at a moment when it would get the most traction for the least effort.
And I think he believes what benefits his particular agenda as a career politician = good for the country, so when anyone disagrees with him, they are opposing what is "good for the country."
It has been said of Bernie for decades that he rebuffs anyone who doesn't agree with him as being corrupt. I think he doesn't believe that would have any negative consequences, and anything that he decides to do is by definition, ethical and good for the country.
I just wish he had more self-awareness about it.
Demsrule86
(71,542 posts)You wont get single payer for years.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Demsrule86
(71,542 posts)
Donkees
(33,677 posts)Link to tweet
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Yes, Bernie likes rallies…but it when it comes down to actually doing real, unsexy work, he's useless - in fact, counterproductive.
Hell, if he likes rallies so much, why isn't he out this week doing more rallies supporting ACA and railing against Trumpcare instead of launching a full on distraction that could very likely lead to the repeal of Obamacare. Why didn't he just wait a couple of weeks to do the Bernie show? I suspect it's because, once the GOP's last ditch attempt to repeal Obamacare failed, the spotlight would shift and Bernie would no longer be the center of attention.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)It's very hard to give it up. Especially for someone who feels that they have been not been given the kudos that they feel they deserve.
As we've seen with DT, too.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)Really?
I think he wishes he would never HAVE to do what he is doing. It is exhausting for him, I am sure.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)pangaia
(24,324 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)pangaia
(24,324 posts)
ProfessorPlum
(11,461 posts)one of his nicknames is the "amendment king" because he is constantly fighting to alter legislation to make it less shitty.
Read Matt Taibbi's profile of him sometime.
Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #34)
Post removed
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts).....right?
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)16 co-sponsors doesn't mean the sponsor is an effective leader.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)That no matter what else they may accomplish in the way of progressive accomplishments, if they don't support this bill, no matter how futile its chances, they will be tarred with the term "corporatist."
It's become dogma. They would end up like any GOP rep who doesn't support defunding of PP....
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)16 co-sponsors us not all that impressive.
ProfessorPlum
(11,461 posts)and is a false lie against an important progressive ally.
SalviaBlue
(3,108 posts)These daily anti-Bernie posts are tiresome.
Some people really want to keep the progressives divided.
Bernie is on our side.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)"Useless" and "an annoyance".
I'm sure there's a Senator or two who dislike him (nobody likes every colleague), your assertion that he is universally seen as a joke, useless and annoying, if true, should be easy to back up.
TIA.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)And I don't care if you don't believe me or don't want to take my word for it.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)But funny thing about actual firsthand knowledge. It's not on the internet and you can't link to it. And people who have it leave it at what I left it at and do 't go around saying "I know so and so and they told me this and that and I saw and heard what's i saw and heard there and then."
But I don't expect you to necessarily take my word since you don't know me or anything about me or how I know what I do. But I do know what I know and one of things I know is that Bernie Sanders is mostly talk and the people who work with him are fully aware of that - one of the reasons so few of them supported his candidacy.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)lunamagica
(9,967 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)In a way that indicates that they don't think he's effective, and feel that he doesn't work well with others, that would likely get alerted.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Plus there's been a plethora of derogatory posts about Senator Sanders since on this thread, utterly fact free, that are hanging out there, no problem.
If you have the evidence, bring it.
This thread is example #1 of how Bernie Sanders smears are allowed here on DU with impunity. Bookmarking it in fact for the future.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Because it would be considered by many to a. re-fighting the primary b. bashing Democrats and leaders (of which Bernie has been defined by DU admin.)
R B Garr
(17,980 posts)considered "smears" if they don't exalt him personally. Enough of this. Feel free to go watch Graham himself introducing his bill and gleefully stating that the "Democrats want this" (referencing single payer) and then smearing socialism,. Those are the words of a United States Senator, not some fabricated internet hooey. This exercise gave the GOP the perfect vehicle to drive the ACA off the cliff.
Enough of promoting one Senator over ALL others just because of personality and beauty contest "issues". Sanders is not a victim, so quit with the accusations.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)When asked to substantiate those, uhm, "facts", they could not.
Are you willing to provide links or proof to substantiate her "facts"?
If not then I reserve the right to call them unsubstantiated smears.
R B Garr
(17,980 posts)have any meaning. Smiles and smirks can also have meaning, which is why I noted Graham's smirks and smiles and happiness when referencing the introduction of single payer which he promptly demonized as socialism. People everywhere seem to understand what was being ridiculed -- even the show Morning Joe was able to see that it was the timing of single payer.
I like how you insist someone place themselves in jeopardy by posting links that you can then dismiss. That seems to be the default position -- if someone hasn't used the word "joke" in a public setting about Bernie, then it's not a possibility that they think his proposals are ridiculous.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)And frankly, I consider Graham to be pond scum. If he hates Bernie, then double plus good imo.
Feel free to have the last word. I'm finished kicking this bullshit.
R B Garr
(17,980 posts)as if joke doesn't also mean things like, "ridiculous". 
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)What G R is saying is that Graham is LOVING Sanders... More specifically, he is loving that Sanders is offering him (in a silver platter) ammunition that will help him reinvigorate and even pass his bill
melman
(7,681 posts)Well there you go. Lindsey Graham smirked! 
R B Garr
(17,980 posts)He was clearly energized with the direction the single payer was allowing him to go. U betcha.
melman
(7,681 posts)Lindsey Graham to do? How else would he behave? I mean ffs!
R B Garr
(17,980 posts)of course he will be smiling and happy.
because the way a politician acts always reflects how they really feel. That's how politics works. They're all totally straightforward.
Especially Lindsey F'ing Graham!
R B Garr
(17,980 posts)mean sadness and dejection over the fact that his political opponents just handed him a gift
Plus his words -- they also said that he was using single payer as a means to lump the ACA together so he could dismiss it as socialism. This was all covered on the cable networks, so if you didn't watch it, you can just say so.
Reality is a thing. Trying to redefine it or deny it is just a waste of time. The GOP is against the Democrats' health care plans, and that is just a simple fact.
melman
(7,681 posts)I couldn't care less about Lindsey Graham's facial expressions one way or the other.
And as far as. "political opponents just handed him a gift" - Yeah, no shit he'd act like that. That's what they do!
R B Garr
(17,980 posts)are really sadness and unhappiness, which is a total waste of time. If you didn't watch Graham and what he said, then just say so. His body language was evident. It wasn't opposite day like you are glibly trying to insinuate.
melman
(7,681 posts)I just don't take Lindsey Graham's statements at face value, nor do I find him the slightest bit credible...about anything. Why anyone would is beyond me. But hey, different strokes I guess.
R B Garr
(17,980 posts)Badgering someone with uninformed comments about something you didn't watch is absurd. It's also a joke that you are now trying to imply that Graham is sad and dejected because he can use socialism as a weapon against Democrats. LOL. And now I magically think Graham is "credible" just because I saw him giddy, happy, smiling and gleeful about using socialism against Democrats.
melman
(7,681 posts)I absolutely never did that. No matter how many times you insist otherwise.
And yes, you are the one giving a lot of weight to Lindsey Graham's words and smirks. I didn't invent that. It's here for anyone to see.
R B Garr
(17,980 posts)he didn't really mean it is a colossal waste of time. He looked and acted happy to screw over Democrats.
R B Garr
(17,980 posts)announcing his bill and the swipes he took at Democrats in Bernie's name and it was clear this move was a gift to them.
Raster
(21,010 posts)...you're just parroting the same ol' toxic anti-Bernie crap that gets slung around DU like toxic waste.
Prove it... cite one Dem that calls Senator Sanders "a joke" or "virtually useless."
lapucelle
(21,049 posts)his rate of success in actually passing those amendments is well below the mean for senators.
ProfessorPlum
(11,461 posts)something our government seems more and more opposed to.
Amendments that screw us over fly through
lapucelle
(21,049 posts)with better records of successfully shepherding their amendments through the process and getting them enacted than the "Amendment King".
It's not how many times you swing the bat; it's how many times you hit the ball.
ProfessorPlum
(11,461 posts)because if so it was an utter failure
lapucelle
(21,049 posts)Ninsianna
(1,354 posts)legislation at inopportune times and he can't persuade his people to defend the ACA when it's under attack, endangering lives, because he has spent too much time attacking it.
He's got lots of nicknames, but not a great track record of proposing effective amendments.
Reading profiles written by people who have not evinced much tendency to unbiased, balanced journalism towards politicians isn't going to educate anyone. Only reading positive things written by fans is a good way to find oneself out of touch with reality.
He's not as advertised, that's not to say he's a bad person, but calling him the "most effective senator" or even one of them is hyperbole that's not substantiated by reality.
Read a more balanced view of him sometime, from local papers, and his voting record, he's not as perfect as his fans believe, no politician is.
ProfessorPlum
(11,461 posts)And while, like all politicians, he has his plusses and minuses, his heart is in the right place and his grasp of policy is strong. He is also a terrific communicator if progressive values and goals, and sees clearly what the kleptocrats areally doing.
Republicans are the actual problem, not Sanders
doc03
(39,067 posts)got elected, look at the f---g mess we have now. That is what lost the election for us IMO.
safeinOhio
(37,590 posts)you were talking about Obama at first.
doc03
(39,067 posts)refight the primary here but how many Bernie
people here said they would never vote for Hillary.
Well they got their wish and now we have a madman in office.
safeinOhio
(37,590 posts)and Hil in the general like most people I know. Those those that voted for Hil in the primary got their wish and we got the idiot for our leader. The blame is equal and I think everyone needs to drop the blame game.
So who do you support for the next election?
doc03
(39,067 posts)total mess, everyone thought Clinton would be a sure thing. We have nobody that stands out
today because of that.
Dustlawyer
(10,539 posts)they say some negative stuff about Bernie all of the sudden they are all members of Mensa.
Bernie will of course defend the ACA and crucify the Republican's Bill. Getting more American's to hear what is in this Bill that they are trying to rush through will only help to put pressure on the 3 key votes.
It will also give some people information they sorely lack about the benefits of Single Payer. Where are the other Democratic leaders on the issue? None of them have stepped up in any where the frequency and consistency on the issue of health care that Bernie has.
Haters gonna hate!
pangaia
(24,324 posts)brooklynite
(96,882 posts)Strategy 1
Dems: Graham-Cassidy is terrible.
Reps: Yes it is, but we promised to vote to repeal ACA, so we have no choice
Strategy 2
Dems: Graham-Cassidy is terrible.
(Sanders promotes Single-Payer)
Reps: Bernie Sanders wants to force you to take Socialized Medicine!
Which is the more effective strategy on a national level?
Dustlawyer
(10,539 posts)It is MEDICARE!!! People know what Medicare is! Bringing attention to their Bill, the ACA which has grown in popularity, and the next step, Single Payer is a good thing.
I suffer from a serious disease and have a lot riding on the outcome of all of this. The more it is talked about the better. The problem has been the Republicans controlling the narrative. Their last attempt had only 12% approval, this Bill is even worse but not many even know it exists and coming up for a vote. Some will find out during this debate and it has been shown that the more people know the more they want what Democrats are talking about.
brooklynite
(96,882 posts)shanny
(6,709 posts)works for me. Better than platitudes like "a better deal".
lapucelle
(21,049 posts)in every session of Congress since 2003. Conyers is a founding member of the Congressional Black Caucus and the Dean of the House of Representatives. He introduced HR 676 for the 8th time last January. It has 117 co-sponsors.
That's leadership.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)CherokeeFiddle
(297 posts)and started introducing single payer in 1991. https://www.congress.gov/bill/102nd-congress/house-bill/2530
Your point?
Ninsianna
(1,354 posts)as did his son who held the seat after him.
I think the point is that Single Payer is a very old idea and not invented by Bernie and shouldn't be included in this cult of personality that's developing.
CherokeeFiddle
(297 posts)Perhaps a bit of projection there based in dislike of Bernie, eh?
Ninsianna
(1,354 posts)Nope. The projection, I find is in all those people who harbor a great dislike themselves and project it onto anyone mentioning simple facts.
Anyone correcting misrepresentations about Bernie isn't doing out of dislike, but going there every single time really does speak to a great deal of projection, projecting the projection also fails as a defense mechanism, since it clearly identifies just who has some issues with dislike and why.
CherokeeFiddle
(297 posts)and none of the cheerleading has even eluded to that. People are excited that the topic of single payer is FINALLY being spoken of in the United States and many have waited the better part of their lifetimes for it to brought front and center in the political discussion of things.
As far as projection goes; I think it is rather evident with some of the content we've seen served up daily. The time for scraping the bottom of the barrel is on its last life line for an excuse of we can't we have single payer in this country. It is going to happen and the sooner we talk about it, the sooner it does. There is never a better time than the present.
Ninsianna
(1,354 posts)It's not just allusions, it's outright stated that it's *his* plan and no one ever has thought of implementing it in the US EVAH!!!
See, people are deeply ignorant about the actual conversation about Single payer that went on in the 90's with Hillary's push on healthcare, and all the other decades. They were erasing John Conyers as well. Utterly ignorant about the actual conversations we've been having.
Less "excited cheerleading" and more learning about history. The only ones who have been waiting their entire "lifetimes" for this to be talked about are, well literally no one. Some younger people who are still unaware of the political discussion of the 90's I guess. Who were too busy during the healthcare discussion that Obama engaged in etc.
Yes, we do see exactly what people are doing, since the people doing all that cheerleading and all that projecting don't seem to know how badly they're concealing themselves.
And then there is this whole lie about the actual impediments to single payer, I guess when one chooses to never learn what political discussion has ever been in this country or what Democrats had been discussing since the 30's, one could make this silly argument. Once again, one needs to be profoundly ignorant about the topic, US political discussion and pretty much anything about single payer in particular and politics in the US in general. This form of projection is indeed scraping the very bottom of the barrel, since one literally has to have been living in a cave and unaware of literally anything at all before a bird landed on a podium somewhere.
As I've explained, it's been talked about for most of the last century and all of this century, but the people doing the talking are doing no listening, no homework, not figuring out the details, they're too bush projecting their own ignorance, their own emotional baggage and their own failure ot understand anything that's being said.
Denying something is fine, but it's kinda silly to deny the denial by posting a whole lot of things that were not true and which make the point that one is trying to refute.
At present, we're dealing with a dangerous bill that seeks to harm and kill people, RIGHT now. For someone to state that there has been "nevera a better time than the present" shows a callous disregard for actual people and what they're facing in the present. All based on generally and willfully ignoring the reality that Single Payer is not new, it was been talked about, and it's not the brain child of a single man who *finally* brought his brilliant idea to the forefront using his own burly hands and sheer will.
That's just silly. It's also demonstrably a load of BS. People need to stop being so "excited" and go learn some facts, some history and figure out why people who are feeding them these lies are probably not doing so with pure intentions, no matter how pure they claim to be.
People are in jeopardy right now, and if people advancing this bill which is not even well written or thought out don't even know that this isn't the first conversation we've had about this, then they should sit down and correct their ignorance. Lives are at take RIGHT NOW.
CherokeeFiddle
(297 posts)Hillary's plan was not single payer in the 90s and it allowed health insurers to remain in charge. It was "managed care". Also, Jesse Jackson in 1988 ran on universal health care which Democrats dismissed as being "too radical". When "Hillarycare" was called “universal” health care but the model was through an employer and individual mandate, not a government-provided program that Sanders backed then and now.
It began in the presidential primary campaigns of 1988, when Jesse Jackson (for whom I was senior health advisor), running for the Democratic nomination, made a commitment to universal, comprehensive health care benefits coverage a central component of his platform. This proposal was dismissed by the Democratic Party establishment as "too radical," but it had already mobilized large sectors of the party's grassroots (especially labor unions and social movements) to support Jackson, with more than 40% of the delegates at the Democratic Party Convention in Atlanta. This shook the Democratic establishment and stimulated responses from Governor Clinton, Senator Al Gore, and Congressman Richard Gephardt to block this rise of the left in the Democratic Party, which they did by establishing the Democratic Leadership Council, among other interventions. (Gore and Gephardt have changed since then; Bill Clinton hasn't.) (I describe these effects of Jackson's health proposals on the Democratic Party in "The 1988 Presidential Election," in The Politics of Health Policy: The U.S. Reforms 1980--1998, Blackwell, 1994. pp. 99-110.) To control this growth of the left, something had to be done. And as liberals always have done when faced with the left, they recycled its progressive proposals, adopting much of their narrative but emptying them of their content. This is what Clinton did in his 1992 campaign. He used the title, narrative, and symbols of Jesse Jackson's campaign, calling his platform "Putting People First" (the title used by Jackson in 1988) and including the call for universal health care benefits. As the perceptive Financial Times wrote, "Clinton [has borrowed] extensively from Jesse Jackson 1988. He sounds like a Swedish social democrat." While borrowing the language and the symbols, however, Clinton changed the content dramatically.
http://www.pnhp.org/news/2007/november/getting-the-facts-right-why-hillarycare-failed
There is never a better time than the present and the reason is simple; people are still dying in this country from not having health insurance. This is a factual reality and the sooner we begin the discussion on single, the sooner we start saving lives. This a moral issue. People are in jeopardy right now and people have been in jeopardy for years, look at all those in red states who didn't expand Medicaid, like Texas, who leads the nation in deaths due to people not having health insurance.
You say lives are at stake right now. I hate to tell you' lives have been at stake for ages and only single payer fixes this.
Ninsianna
(1,354 posts)I never stated that her plan was Single Payer. You stated falsely that no one has ever EVAH brought this topic into the political discussion. I proved you wrong. I'm glad that you have finally learned all the errors in your previous message even if admitting the mistake was a little too hard to do.
So my point still stands.
Again, you're literally saying that people are dying right now from the loss of the ACA, this will somehow make this the perfect time to push through an ill thought out plan that won't do anything for years, has no details fleshed out etc.
People are actually not dying due to lack of health insurance, people will be dying from lack of the ACA if this current bill is allowed to pass, which it might before September 30th, with 50 votes. THIS is why people are saying it was moronic to put this bill forth before 0ctober1st.
This is factual reality No one is saving lives by allowing ACA to be undermined the way this bill doing. This is a moral issue, and it's immoral to be playing with esoteric debates of ill thought out bills and introducing them at such a precarious time. It is politically moronic, it's sadistic, it's insane and profoundly callous.
Look at all those consequences of a bill that cannot be defended, and which is what we should all be laser focused on because it has a chance of passing with 50 votes RIGHT FREAKING NOW? Yeah look at them. And then examine how utterly stupid it is to play into the GOP talking points right now where instead of defending their murderous bill, now they can whine and complain about Bernie and his bill.
I hate to tell you, but actual people are endangered by this political stunt, and waiting for "single payer" when no rational plan for it has been put forward in any workable way, is just callously and sadistically saying that it's fine for people to die while people rant on ignorantly about how pure their quaint notions about a plan they don't understand are.
It's a shame the pure won't do their homework, cling to their delusions and are fine with causing millions upon millions of people to lose their ACA protections because of a slogan.
I hate to tell you but real people are suffering right now and dying and they may not be real to you, but they can't wait til people learn the basics.
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)
lapucelle
(21,049 posts)It's a bill whose goal was to contain insurance costs by giving block grants to states that opted into the program by fulfilling a set of criteria. It neither covered the costs of essential healthcare for all citizens nor guaranteed universal coverage.
Its stated purpose is
"To assist and encourage the development through the States of a system of
universal comprehensive health care."
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Divide and conquer is in full effect on DU like it's still primary season before the last election.
These obvious divisive threads over and over and over, day in and day out make me lose all hope for this country.
Somewhere the koch bros are laughing their collective asses off.
safeinOhio
(37,590 posts)Thanks.
concreteblue
(626 posts)Apparently CONservatism respects no ideology.
DLevine
(1,791 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)I am heartsick over this divisive war on the left in the face of ACA repeal just days away.
Raster
(21,010 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)see the manipulation going on here daily?
Who benefits from this never ending Bernie vs democratic party war?
Only one group, the damn republicans and their stinking fuhrer.
Mistakes were made and feelings hurt in the last election but my God, how long until we can stop shooting ourselves in the face and unite against the great evil that threatens to overtake this country for good?
I just want to throw up my hands and walk away from this stuff at times.
Atticus
(15,124 posts)against our supposed common goals.
Hang in there.
Demsrule86
(71,542 posts)This single payer stuff is hurting our efforts to save the ACA.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)It's a good argument...nothing strikes fear into the hearts of Repubs more than "socialistic" health care. For that reason alone, some might vote for Graham-Cassidy.
Bernie has not stepped back on it.
MoonRiver
(36,975 posts)that military personnel and everybody 65 and over, has access to "socialized" medicine. The stupid is very strong in this country.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)As for military, that's employment insurance.
MoonRiver
(36,975 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)nt
MoonRiver
(36,975 posts)We taxpayers pay for their care. I am just fine with that.
MoonRiver
(36,975 posts)Repukes are always hypocritical and inconsistent scum. They do whatever is to their advantage and screw everybody else.
Loubee
(173 posts)they refuse to stand for anything.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)So what appeals to their fears and hopes, is what is relevant. Not how Dems or others feel about that.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)Strategy to see the ACA killed in order to see healthcare devolve to such a dire situation that he thinks he will have the political leverage for Medicare for all. Remember folks, there is a reason that Susan "blow it all up" Sarandon loves this guy. Just sayin'.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)So what if some people die in the process – all about service to the "revolution.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)pangaia
(24,324 posts)That is the last thing he wants to be.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)Repeal bill. Every state Medicaid director has come out against this bill. Jimmy Kimmell is skewering this bill every night on his show. Republican Governors have come out against this bill. I could go on and on. But Bernie is special. He is going to debate the authors of this bill on Monday night and make it a choice between Repeal and Medicare for all. THE ONE THING THAT COULD SCARE A COUPLE MORE 'YES' VOTES OUT OF THE REPUBLICANS. HE IS A SHAMELESS AND SELFISH GRANDSTANDER IMO.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Fresh_Start
(11,365 posts)I'm absolutely going to introduce single payer regular announcements months before he did...
Atticus
(15,124 posts)in your unsupported speculation.
"Just sayin'"
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)brooklynite
(96,882 posts)Pugster
(229 posts)He is fighting for a good cause. His supporters are the problem.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Maybe his supporters are egging him on but this is all Bernie.
Response to Pugster (Reply #20)
pangaia This message was self-deleted by its author.
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)ProfessorPlum
(11,461 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Long before Bernie introduced his. So why didn't Bernie support him by introducing companion bill then instead of waiting until last week to do something?
And, yes, Conyers is talking about it at the Congressional Black Caucus annual legislative conference this week. That's what CBC members do at ALC – they talk about A broad range of issues, including their legislation That's very different than rolling out a bill in the middle of this important Obamacare debate, running around all over town and showing up all across the airwaves talking about it and doing a nationally televised debate.
Oh, and by the way – Conyers is a congressman, not a senator. The ACA repeal effort is happening in the Senate, where Bernie and his bill or sucking all the oxygen out of the opposition.
BannonsLiver
(20,544 posts)Bernie is not what you call a team player.
pnwmom
(110,254 posts)instead of debating the ACA vs. its repeal, they will bait him into a debate about single payer. This isn't the time for that debate.
Response to Post removed (Original post)
MrsCoffee This message was self-deleted by its author.
shanny
(6,709 posts)Last edited Fri Sep 22, 2017, 10:29 AM - Edit history (2)
The mind, it boggles
Yes we should always base our actions on how mean repukes are to us.
edited to correct spell-check spelling
Vinca
(53,926 posts)
Bernie is not evil. He appeals to the left leaning side of the Democratic Party. Alienate them and re-elect Trump. There is nothing wrong with being idealistic and aspirational.
boston bean
(36,929 posts)to hold the party hostage.
Vinca
(53,926 posts)boston bean
(36,929 posts)Yeah.
Response to boston bean (Reply #50)
Name removed Message auto-removed
boston bean
(36,929 posts)
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Well, at least you've found a hill to die on.
boston bean
(36,929 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)boston bean
(36,929 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)boston bean
(36,929 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Or is this normal for you?
boston bean
(36,929 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Does that disappoint you?
boston bean
(36,929 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)And Democrats must become the people they want them to be
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Bullshit.
Vinca
(53,926 posts)on this site, I will be surprised if we don't have a 2 term Trump presidency. Divide and conquer doesn't work in this instance.
DownriverDem
(7,010 posts)Why do I feel that many Bernie supporters alienate me? I am a proud member of the Democratic Party. We have a two party system. Denying that means repubs win.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)why do I feel that many Hillary supporters alienate me?
Vinca
(53,926 posts)Bernie supporters and mainstream Democrats have a heck of a lot more in common than we have differences. If we don't unite we get Trump. It's not rocket science.
ProfessorPlum
(11,461 posts)I'm sure Sanders coordinates with his Democratic senate colleagues all of the time about messaging, policy, and legislation.
Just because you don't get it, don't assume that Sanders and the Democrats don't.
MrsCoffee
(5,825 posts) boston bean
(36,929 posts)
Tarheel_Dem
(31,454 posts)
lunamagica
(9,967 posts) Tom Rinaldo
(23,187 posts)Klobuchar is taking part in the same debate. Conyers is tweeting out stuff like this:
John Conyers, Jr.
✔
@RepJohnConyers
Happening Now: #MedicareforAll: Because #Obamacare Alone Isn’t Enough.
Obamacare is now positioned as the middle ground. It should become easier for more moderate Republicans to oppose repealing it because of that. They know that if Graham - Cassidy passes we will have Medicare for all within six years because of the backlash that will grow to the Republican "solution". If instead they agree to "repair" Obamacare that model may hold for a generation.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)
iwannaknow
(213 posts)Continued infighting is the surest way to continue our minority rule situation.
Demit
(11,238 posts)concreteblue
(626 posts)Do we not all agree that Republicans are destroying our country? Do not all agree that they must be stopped?
Demit
(11,238 posts)Something has to give. Someone has to yield. Someone has to go silent. What is your proposal?
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)who will tolerate no dissent, and will call anyone who does "corrupt."
THAT is what will undermine any chance of progress.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)His panel has been planned for months and is based on the legislation he introduced back in January. Unlike Bernie, Conyers didn't jump into the parade last week and act like he's the grand marshal. He's not all over television distracting from the Trumpcare debate.
And he's a Congressman, not a Senator. He's not part of the Trumpcare debate and doesn't have a vote.
So don't try to use John Conyers as a shield for Bernie. Nice try, though.
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)After all, ALL our efforts need to be focused on protecting the ACA, right?
See how that sounds? You probably don’t think that’s valid criticism, right?
Also, convenient that you ignored the text of the tweet which was put out yesterday. Are you OK with Conyers speaking out against the ACA?
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)It's a discussion with an audience of maybe 200 people.
No one is saying that Single Payer can't be discussed - it's an important issue. But if you don't understand the difference between a congressman hosting a long-planned panel discussion about his legislation with experts at a large conference featuring hundreds of other panel discussions on scores of other topics and Senator rolling out a major piece of legislation on a topic right before the deadline for Senate passage of a major piece of dangerous legislation and then going on national television for a debate with the opposition before the vote, well ...
Oh, never mind ...
Response to EffieBlack (Reply #66)
Post removed
Demit
(11,238 posts)And take your own advice (reject the tribal urges) as you defend Bernie Sanders.
JCanete
(5,272 posts)It doesn't make any sense. They still have no actual plan except to damage people's current coverage. Nobody, Sanders or any of the other dems who cosponsored Medicare for all, has stopped defending the ACA from the republican attack, and I'd argue that pushing further makes obamacare the middle-ground plan to the public.
There's just no case to make here as to how this gets in the way of anything. And do you really think the Medicare for all got a lot of TV coverage anyway? Of course it didn't. MSM isn't going to distract from their regular vapid bullshit to present dramatic progressivism to the masses. The outrage is silly and depressing, because again, its people in our party saying why we can't even ask for nice things.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)If Grahmercracker/Hopalong goes through it will be the fault of republican human freaks.
dogman
(6,073 posts)on abortion rights. Of course that doesn't fit your meme, so ignore it.
dogman
(6,073 posts)"These red flags mark all the restrictions on abortions in the Republicans' "health care" bill. This is not really a health care bill. This is a major rollback of women’s rights. And we are not going to take away women's right to make decisions about their own bodies."
ProfessorPlum
(11,461 posts)it is gullible to believe them on this issue. They are just grasping for straws.
Javaman
(65,668 posts) Arazi
(8,878 posts)No way is anyone being allowed to go rogue at this time.
Klobuchar and Sanders were selected to be the reps for this. I can't wait
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)I can post other recent/daily Sanders quotes if you like or post Sanders record of voting with D party but it probably won't change your mind anyway.
GaryCnf
(1,399 posts)Has been passed along to Kamala Harris, Corey Booker, and Kirsten Harris.
I have not spoken to them personally, but I am sure they will take it under advisement.
mwooldri
(10,817 posts)But really wants the ACA to survive.
He will vote to block this GOP monstrosity. As will the other independent senator and all the Democrats.
Why can't he grandstand in order to push better healthcare? Coming from the UK I'm used to the National Health Service way of doing things.
The GOP has been put on notice. They destroy the ACA at their own peril, lest they get Medicare for All when a Democratic administration comes to office in 2018/2020
NJCher
(43,090 posts)
safeinOhio
(37,590 posts)Lets not bring up voting for war with Iraq. Lets not bring up small donations and not taking money from those now in the new admin., lets not bring up lots of other stuff because, well because...
DFW
(60,139 posts)It's not our place to tell him he "needs to just be quiet." He is not a member of our party, so we shouldn't be telling him what he "needs" to do any more than he should be telling Democrats what they "need" to do.
I would encourage him when he stands with us. I draw the line at enabling him when he tells us and our leadership what they're doing wrong. Reform for ANY party has to come from within, not from outside. The Republicans are learning how awful they can be from actions by their own president and Congresscritters. No pointing that out by us will have the slightest effect on them. Republicans will rise and say "no more!" when they hear it on Fox Noise, not when Rachel Maddow lays it out for them, no matter how much more in synch with reality she is than they are.
DownriverDem
(7,010 posts)IMO Bernie should join the Dem Party. I am a proud member of the Democratic Party (Michigan 12th District -Debbie Dingell is my rep.). We have a two party system no matter what some folks think. I worry that Bernie supporters don't understand how our elections work. I like Bernie's ideas, but if we don't unite, the repubs will win again. All I care about is beating the repubs.
CousinIT
(12,514 posts)on an otherwise losing issue.
GaryCnf
(1,399 posts)I will also pass along your thoughts to Kamala Harris, Corey Booker, Kirsten Gillebrand and the other co-sponsors of MFA that they are not "proper Democrats." Oh, yeah, since you are talking about "the debate," I will let Amy Klobuchar know that you feel the same about her as well.
The future leaders of the party appreciate your support.
CousinIT
(12,514 posts)If you misinterpreted my intent to communicate with them - it's your issue. Here - or anywhere - there is NO winning any argument re: Sanders vs Hillary and who did or did not do what/when/why/how or who is or isn't a Dem.
And THAT (evidenced by YOUR snark and others here on DU) is going to BURN the Democrats in 2018 and 2020 because people just CAN NOT get over themselves.
Jesus Christmas.
My question was and IS - why any other Democrats are not in the debate. I don't mind Sanders being there - but why is he alone, save Klobuchar? Were others not invited? If that's the case it would indicate that Repigs wish to use Sanders to "win" the otherwise unwinnable debate.
You were so busy being snarky, you didn't answer my damn question.
Pfft.
chopper050
(43 posts)While everyone is pissing and moaning about Bernie the GOP continues to ransack America.. I think it's time the Democrats quit being so polite . it's time the Democrats start calling these people out on their shit . And it needs to be Non-Stop , because those jerkoffs in the GOP are doing things Non-Stop against the people . Keep in mind those politicians have good health care , why can't we. I don't see anybody talking about that ,well maybe Bernie . I've been working a lot and I'm having a hard time keeping up but this Burning and criticizing Bernie because he's not a Democrat , I call it bullshit . maybe it's time the Democrats Embrace him and we all work in defeating the nasty GOP , cuz they're not doing any of us any good or this whole nation for that matter...
safeinOhio
(37,590 posts)Thats the real reason for the problems with the ACA, i.e. Koch and friends. Only one person ran against big money and didn't take it. Life long Democrat, but I will fight the real fight which getting power away from big money. I will fight the neocons of both parties that push war and the military.
If the Kochs were for single payer, repubs would be too.Period.
emulatorloo
(46,155 posts)there are few limits on how much you can give.
I have no doubt they will do good work.
Until we can get rid of Citizens United, Democrats including Bernie are not going to just surrender to folks like the Koch Bros.
Additionally Citizens United will never go away if we allow Republicans to win. They have 0 interest in getting rid of Citizens United.
So we are in a place right now where we have to think in terms of "good PACs" vs "bad PACs". Yes I know that isn't how it should be. But that's the world we live in right now until we get enough political power to get campaign finance reform done.
As to the ACA you can hang the blame on one man: Joe Lieberman. We needed his vote to pass it. He held us hostage and killed the Public Option. When an alternActive was suggested, opening up Medicare to 55 y/o, Lieberman killed that too.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)right after it got started.
The announcement of the group, which was live streamed on Wednesday night, also came as a majority of its staff resigned after the appointment last Monday of Jeff Weaver, Mr. Sanders’s former campaign manager, to lead the organization.
Several people familiar with the organization said eight core staff members had stepped down. The group’s entire organizing department quit this week, along with people working in digital and data positions.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/25/us/politics/bernie-sanders-our-revolution-group.html?_r=0
WhiteTara
(31,257 posts)(Bernie's campaign chair) worked with Paul Manafort in Ukraine for Russia?
delisen
(7,348 posts)the Manafort-related and Russia-related people who were involved in the 2016 election cycle -for whatever candidates.
MrsCoffee
(5,825 posts)Needless to say, Meuller's investigation will no doubt answer many of the questions being raised.
MrsCoffee
(5,825 posts)Whether the guy that told him to run as a Dem, attack Hillary and seek his own debates with Trump is behind the latest debate distraction or not, Devine's influence seems to have stuck.
WhiteTara
(31,257 posts)thanks for the reminder.
LiberalLovinLug
(14,674 posts)"only in it for himself"?
"push his own agenda"?
He's not trying to sell an album or push a movie FFS. He is tirelessly working hard to work with other Dems to give his fellow citizens the best health care possible.
And this is the best possible time to do this.
garybeck
(10,085 posts)Last edited Fri Sep 22, 2017, 09:24 AM - Edit history (1)
Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #61)
garybeck This message was self-deleted by its author.
garybeck
(10,085 posts)He speaks for me on this one.
Gothmog
(179,378 posts)
Nanjeanne
(6,567 posts)things that have caused the Dems to lose so many elections.
ProfessorPlum
(11,461 posts)as we are reminded a million times a day.
HughBeaumont
(24,461 posts)Sorry, Bernie isn't to blame for 10 lost Ohio Obama counties or turning a state Obama won twice into one as deep-red as Texas.
66 million votes should have won this election. Republicans should not have majorities in anything in 2017.
There were and are outside factors. But a bad ground game and a poor state strategy cannot be ignored.
Nanjeanne
(6,567 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)After all, he lost to her ...
When is Bernie going to "shoulder the blame" for HIS loss?
Demsrule86
(71,542 posts)Gore1FL
(22,942 posts)She's debating on the same side as Bernie, afterall.
classykaren
(769 posts)garybeck
(10,085 posts)
IronLionZion
(51,201 posts) pwb
(12,636 posts)
democratisphere
(17,235 posts)
Magoo48
(6,720 posts)is open debate not desirable around the issue of healthcare; are we Democrats before we're citizens of the US; do we now denounce a man who is working hard to acquire the best healthcare system that he possibly can for working folks? Because we collect here on DU as party members doesn't mean that there aren't those outside of the party doing good works.... I say attack those who are willfully disregarding our common welfare while, at the same time, we support those who are attempting to protect it...even if they are not Democrats...
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)And that's somehow proof of how much he loved and cares for us, but if anyone so much as breathes a word of criticism of Bernie's tactics or motives, we're off-base.
Response to EffieBlack (Reply #87)
Post removed
Blue_Tires
(57,596 posts)I will say the party needs to stop looking at him as some kind of fix-all savior and see him for what he really is -- A wildcard liberal independent with the capacity to help us or hurt us on any given day, and even though his star power is peaking right now, the party was stupid to cede so much power and influence to his people...
R B Garr
(17,980 posts)The reality still remains that he was defeated by MILLIONS of votes.
Everything you said!
George II
(67,782 posts)....for his bill, which has no chance of getting out of committee much less a floor vote.
I feel bad for Amy Kobouchar, hopefully she'll be able to get as much time to speak as the other three debaters.
PubliusEnigma
(1,583 posts)alarimer
(17,146 posts)While it is true that he is not a Democrat, the rest is bullshit.
Fuck this shit.
HughBeaumont
(24,461 posts). . . how there was NEVER this much venom thrown at Republicans and Democrats who actually DID vote against having a multi-payer system in the United States?
A multi-payer system which, if put into law, likely WOULDN'T have lost us a shit-ton of House and Senate seats, governorships or the Presidency . . . all now firmly held by the worst fuckers humanity has ever shat out?
Every complaint with the PPACA is directly rooted in the fact that Big Insurance, Big Pharma and hospital Chargemasters still have a stranglehold on it's direction. IOW, Capitalism, not Government, is its problem.
Yet so many here think a government lawmaker should just shut up about a much-needed expansion of our awful social safety net.
StevieM
(10,578 posts)Last edited Sat Sep 23, 2017, 01:45 PM - Edit history (1)
from playing out the way it did.
2010 was a backlash to health care reform, something that would have happened with or without a public option. It also involved many Americans blaming Obama for not ending the Bush recession sooner.
In 2012 we won most of the Senate seats, including many in deep red states. And we would have won the House if not for gerrymandering.
2014 was looking fairly competitive but then it turned out to be a referendum on Barack Obama's supposed plans to let the ebola virus into the United States.
In 2015 Barack Obama turned a corner and started to become popular again. He was pretty well-like by Election Day 2016.
The 2016 election was all about the fake email scandal. Comey rigged the whole damn thing from beginning to end. If the election had turned on the issues we would have won.
The GOP's ability to steal elections has nothing to do with how liberal we are or are not. That doesn't mean that we should not look to establish a more liberal country. It simply means that the diabolical GOP tactics have historically had a lot of success and our stance on the issues were not going to change that IMO.
CherokeeFiddle
(297 posts)and there isn't much left for excuses after this.
jalan48
(14,914 posts)
ornotna
(11,462 posts)vi5
(13,305 posts)Just like many (maybe you....maybe not) said we don't need his supporters and voters in 2016?
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)But nice try.
vi5
(13,305 posts)..to post inflamatory statements regarding someone who we need on our side. At the very least, a less than productive use of one's time and effort.
lillypaddle
(9,606 posts)mentalslavery
(463 posts)feel the bern
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)mentalslavery
(463 posts)feel the bern
Chakaconcarne
(2,783 posts)Awesome!
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)is dismissed for not bringing the party together.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)dlk
(13,241 posts)John Conyers has been working on this same proposal for years, yet receives little to no recognition for it. Coupled with the latest Republican last-minute ACA repeal attempt, this was extremely poor timing on Bernie's part--introducing a bill that sucks up media and public attention from the critical ACA repeal vote at hand. Couldn't Bernie have waited a week or two to introduce his bill? What is really best for our country in this instance?
world wide wally
(21,836 posts)The task at hand right now is stopping this rediculous Republican replace and repeal bullshit.
After that we have all the time in the world to debate where we go next.
Get a fucking grip.
Nanjeanne
(6,567 posts)Im at a loss why Dems on DU insist this CNN event is purely an excuse for Sanders to push his Medicare For All bill.
https://www.facebook.com/senatorsanders/videos/10156344594987908/
mentalslavery
(463 posts)
MadLinguist
(905 posts)to go for Medicare for All.
Ace Rothstein
(3,373 posts)
m-lekktor
(3,675 posts) 
CrispyQ
(40,936 posts)And then there's this:
Dems Not Backing Medicare for All Get Twice as Much Industry Cash as Co-Sponsors
New analysis shows that while Sanders himself gets zero from health insurance industry, co-sponsors of his bill receive half as much as those who remain on the sideline
But hey, lets bash Bernie & send the message to his supporters that they aren't welcome in the party cuz they aren't real dems. Sounds like a winning strategy to me.
left-of-center2012
(34,195 posts)People have been attacking Bernie Sanders since 2016,
when he dared compete for the Democratic nomination,
and doubled down when Hillary Clinton lost the Fall election to Trump.
ucrdem
(15,720 posts)and winning 13 million votes. That's the first sentence of his latest book:
https://www.amazon.com/Bernie-Sanders-Guide-Political-Revolution/dp/1250138906/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1506090349&sr=1-1&refinements=p_27%3ABernie+Sanders
Boasting that his greatest accomplishment is "taking on" the party he supposedly caucuses with does not suggest to me that he's a team player.
MrsCoffee
(5,825 posts)He has benefited from the "establishment" for over 25 years, including the party not running actual Democrats against him.
R B Garr
(17,980 posts)that his opposition/degrading of Democrats provides his self-defined status. The hostility is essential to that image and why it will always be at Democrat's expense.
Eliot Rosewater
(34,284 posts)ucrdem
(15,720 posts)Scratch Sanders' oft-asserted "support" for Clinton mister or madame, the Obama PPACA, the Obama presidency, the Obamas, Congressional Democrats, their traditional constituencies, Democratic voters and the Democratic party, and you quickly pass through a micron-thin veneer of bonhomie to a solid bedrock of contempt. Likewise in his fiercer supporters. It isn't hard to detect.
Eyeball_Kid
(7,604 posts)We're in a political crisis much larger than this minor spat. Russia engineered a coup. Got that? Russia is operating out of the White House. And here we have an argument going about whether Sanders is or isn't a loyal Democrat. I don't give a rat's ass about whether Sanders is a loyal Democrat. How about focusing on the fact that Russia is taking over the nation? The GOP is responsible for laundering Russian money! GOP Congressmen have received money from Russian oligarchs! Russians are moving into southern Florida in droves. Facebook and Twitter are flooded with Russian agents of influence, both human and robotic.
chopper050
(43 posts)I'm with you regarding this post . same old same old we need to focus in on the real issues , the Russians an orange 45 and the rest of the GOP and now it seems our own... I don't see the leaders of the democratic party coming up with any other plans . Bernie is the only one because he's not a Democrat the Dem party is all over his shit and unfortunately some of the people on the DU .what a shame..
Expecting Rain
(811 posts)RhodeIslandOne
(5,042 posts)There are several Democrats getting behind this including most of the ones seemingly getting ready to run for President.
You are letting Republicans tell you what to think. America has been ready to move on to other ideas, and the GOP is continually serving the same shit sandwich.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)I'M behind Bernie's bill - just as I was behind John Conyers' bill months ago. This is about timing and prioritization.
And it's pretty rich to be lectured that I'm "letting Republicans tell {me} what to think" - by someone who doesn't know me or jack squat about me telling me how I determine my opinions.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)If the ACA is repealed, it will be repealed along party lines. Republicans that previously held out will be swayed and the measure will pass without a single Democrat or independent supporting it.
So you're saying Bernie Sanders talking about single payer will make Collins, Murkowski, and McCain flip? Because, wow. That's fascinating.
RhodeIslandOne
(5,042 posts)With threats of some other zombie bill?
You realize September 30th might still not be the end, right? This is going to continue on with more shitty bills that favor the wealthy.
Why aren't you ripping Patty Murray for working on a bi-partisan bill with Lamar Alexander? Isn't that another distraction?
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Last edited Fri Sep 22, 2017, 12:26 PM - Edit history (1)
Thank you for speaking out.
Me.
(35,454 posts)You are correct
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)And you were of course free to say so prior to this. As long as you realize that you speak for yourself.
LexVegas
(6,959 posts)Raster
(21,010 posts)...and you can't prove otherwise.
R B Garr
(17,980 posts)most Democrats. That is a fact.
m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)Gee when was that vote held?! 
R B Garr
(17,980 posts)lunamagica
(9,967 posts)melman
(7,681 posts)This is now.
Demsrule86
(71,542 posts)Hint Turn on your tv.
Response to Post removed (Original post)
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oasis
(53,633 posts)
disillusioned73
(2,872 posts)
LostOne4Ever
(9,749 posts)ProfessorPlum
(11,461 posts)onecaliberal
(36,594 posts)Theft of democracy is small potatos compared to Bernie sanders to you guys. It's time to look around and understand once and for all that A MADMAN HAS HIS FINGER ON THE NUKES. This isn't a Fucking game. In case you all failed to notice we lost and we damn well better get over the fucking primary.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)And his eventual, reluctant vote doesn't make him any more vital than anyone else who voted for it.
That wasn't some fucking game to those of us who needed the ACA to keep our health insurance.
George II
(67,782 posts)Tarheel_Dem
(31,454 posts) CherokeeFiddle
(297 posts)when Bernie kicks the living shit of out Republicans and puts them in their place. If anybody can spank the GOP it's Bernie!
Ms. Toad
(38,575 posts)Do not post disrespectful nicknames, insults, or highly inflammatory attacks against any Democratic public figures. Do not post anything that could be construed as bashing, trashing, undermining, or depressing turnout for any Democratic general election candidate, and do not compare any Democratic general election candidate unfavorably to their general election opponent(s).
Why we have this rule: Our forum members support and admire a wide variety of Democratic politicians and public figures. Constructive criticism is always welcome, but our members don't expect to see Democrats viciously denigrated on this website. This rule also applies to Independents who align themselves with Democrats (eg: Bernie Sanders).
Emphasis added, since it seems to need to be put in flashing neon lights for the benefit of posts like this one, and jurors who chose to let it stay.
ProfessorPlum
(11,461 posts)Expecting Rain
(811 posts)and no Democrat* has been viciously denigrated in this thread.
*or the uniquely protected non-Democrat.
Ms. Toad
(38,575 posts)*doesn't care about Dems and is only out for himself
*Bernie is using the issue and the spotlight to push his own agenda, even though it undermines our efforts.
*He is not a Democrat, he's not a team player, and we need to stop encouraging and enabling him.
*And he needs to just be quiet.
BTW: Unique means the only one. He is an expressly named individual example (e.g. Bernie Sanders) of a class of protected non-Democrats (Independents who align themselves with Democrats).
Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #331)
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Ms. Toad
(38,575 posts)but I expect we think it has gone haywire in opposite directions.
Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #334)
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chillfactor
(7,694 posts)it would be nice to have bernie quiet while the debate is going on.....we need to save Obamacare first BEFORE other plans are forwarded.
KPN
(17,351 posts)and can't tolerate others' opinions.
Nanjeanne
(6,567 posts)"The idea that you can only fight for one thing at a time, for #MedicareForAll or against the #ACA repeal, is insulting." - @GavinNewsom
The empressof all
(29,106 posts)The party has been brilliant in using Bernie's Independent status. He gains us the folks like me on the left while maintaining plausible deniability for his positions they can't move towards yet without political risk. The American people need a clear idea of what we can move forward to in regards to healthcare for this country. The ACA is damaged goods right now and no one really has a clear notion of what making it better looks like. Who is really speaking to that who has a clearer voice and media recognition. Single Payer is a simple concept and right now Bernie is the clearest spokesman. If not him...WHO? He is a brand that got a CNN invitation and one that many will watch.
Corvo Bianco
(1,148 posts)A PUNCH when it's backed by fact.
Warpy
(114,580 posts)Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)If you mean the ToS as written, no.
If you mean the ToS as applied by many juries, yes.
I know this because I alerted your post as a violation of the rule against not bashing Democratic public figures, yet here it still is.
This raises the logical follow-up question: Are we allowed to post similar personal attacks on Hillary Clinton? After all, there are people in this country who despise her as intensely as some DUers despise Bernie. If those people came to DU and gave vent to their emotions, would the posts stand?
My guess is No, the posts would not stand.
I personally don't despise Hillary Clinton, but even comments about her that are milder than yours about Bernie's have been removed.
Quixote1818
(31,154 posts)as he fights FOR Democrats like all of us and all Americans!
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)I'm not saying you don't fully believe what you say - I'm guessing you do. But remember who's on your side.
And play this video and listen to how compelling Bernie's big ideas are. I don't want him to run again, but he's a hell of a seller of big ideas.
JCanete
(5,272 posts)Last edited Sat Sep 23, 2017, 01:41 AM - Edit history (1)
of just where we are. I assure you, these kinds of posts are not convincing to those of us who don't see eye to eye with you, just as other posts lauding Sanders or his efforts are not convincing to you. if you just want adulation from the people who already agree with you, for saying the same shit that people have said already over and over, I guess this is the kind of post to deliver. If you just want to rile up those who disagree with you, this is the kind of post to deliver.
On the other hand, if you want to have an actual discussion or make any headway on any subject under the sun, whether across this progressive divide or even with your own philosophical allies, well this gets you nowhere at all.
Response to Post removed (Original post)
liberalnarb This message was self-deleted by its author.