Morning Joe devoted to bashing Bernie this AM

[oberliner]

The entire team is going off on him, talking about how foolish (or worse) he is to push for this health care debate now and that he is playing into Republican hands.

What do folks here think?

[Honeycombe8]

1. "Bashing" is your term. They rightly point out that the Repubs are using Bernie's bill...

as a push-point to pass Graham-Cassidy, and that is a good argument for the Repubs. Sanders has not stepped back on it.

It's valid. It's not bashing to point out that Bernie's actions have helped the Repubs, and that some Dems have made statements about this not being the discussion the Dems want to have right now: Graham-Cassidy vs socialistic health care (Bernie's bill).

[oberliner]

4. Bashing means "severely criticizing"

Which is what they have been doing all morning.

Whether their criticism is justified or not is what I am asking for thoughts on from my fellow DU-ers.

[Honeycombe8]

14. "Bashing" is a derogatory verb meaning to hit hard, implying unjustly or intended to harm. Revile.

synonyms: criticize, censure, assail, attack, condemn, revile, denounce, rail against, cast aspersions on.

They aren't unjustly railing against, attacking, assailing him. This is a factual discussion pointing out that Bernie did something that may get the Repub bill passed, and that he hasn't stepped back on it. And that is something that shows up the difference between a member of the Democratic Party and one who is not, although has many issues in common.

Bernie doesn't always play with the Dem Party team, because he's not a Democrat. One Dem made the remark that he's not being a team player. Which is not bashing. It's pointing out what his actions show.

[brush]

17. I'll just say Sanders should have waited until Oct. 1 to pitch Medicare for all, which would...

have been after the time period where only 51 votes could repeal and replace the ACA.

Now the repugs are using it as an anti-socialism talking point to pass the horrible trumpcare bill.

[kstewart33]

80. Agree completely.

Bernie should have waited until after the vote. The Republicans have used his plan in their campaign to pass G-C.

Looks like it won't matter. Hoping that's the case.

[Demsrule86]

6. Many of us warned this could happen.

The GOP are completely ruthless and quite clever at making others the bad guy...

[Trust Buster]

2. We have been called "trolls" on DU the last few days for uttering the same common sense.

[Demsrule86]

3. It depends what is being debated. If it is single payer vs the GOP plan,

he is playing into their hands. If it is a defense of the ACA and an attack on murdercare, it could help. Time will tell.

[oberliner]

5. Bernie's Twitter feed has recently been focused on Graham-Cassidy

And why it is a horrendous bill that must be defeated.

[Ninsianna]

78. His organization has nont been, they've been cheering on the demise of the ACA

and encouraging people to call about his bill, as if the GC bill is merely an afterthought.

[leftynyc]

7. But he's NOT defending the ACA

or putting forth ideas that would help and strengthen it - that would be very helpful. No - he's using this time to take the spotlight off the putrid republican bill and pushing his own agenda.

[oberliner]

8. His tweets of late have focused on why Graham-Cassidy is awful

Link to tweet

There is a video on his feed picking apart the bill.

[leftynyc]

11. And for the tens of millions NOT on twitter?

The ONLY focus should be on the republican bill. Bringing up universal care at this time was stupidity beyond belief (I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he wasn't trying to purposely hurt the Democrats and was simply just being stupid). the MJ crew is 100% right about this one.

[Old Vet]

18. Fact is theres not a snowballs chance in hell Sanders bill will go anywhere, Everybody knows it.....

Iam very cool with Sanders helping to kill this terrible new healthcare repeal law, Helping to educate people about the harm of the new repeal law does help. And both Independents and Democrats can agree on.

[EffieBlack]

10. If it's a debate about ACA, we need a different front man

There are plenty of Democrats more knowledgeable and more articulate than Bernie. He's a terrible debater and when he starts shouting and starts wagging that finger, he's just going to drive away the very people we need to keep in the fold.

This is not about Bernie's support for ACA. This is about Bernie grandstanding for his own ends.

[leftynyc]

13. Graham baited him into that debate

and Sen Sanders' ego didn't allow him to see it for what it was.

[Demsrule86]

57. It is entrapment...you are giving the GOP a huge forum for their lies.

[leftynyc]

60. A less egotistical person

wouldn't have been fooled by this obvious stunt by Graham.

[Demsrule86]

61. Right, Graham is not stupid...you should have been wary.

[leftynyc]

63. The only way Sanders can

redeem himself for the stupidity would be to spend that ENTIRE debate on Monday trashing the republican bill and saying it isn't the right time to discuss his bill while the healthcare of millions is in peril RIGHT NOW.

[Ninsianna]

79. It's not exactly subtle either.

[samnsara]

33. actually that shouting and finger wagging is what drove ME away..

...that sort of posturing may not sit well with others esp if theres an issue with authority ( or just another old white guy telling me what to do)

[Demsrule86]

56. My fear is it it will weaken our chances of saving the ACA if he goes all single payer.

[dogman]

40. How about the man who herded the ACA through congress?

“I just think the time has come,” Baucus told NBC News Friday, after stunning healthcare observers earlier in the day by seemingly coming around on single-payer at a public forum. “Back in ’09, we were not ready to address it. It would never have passed. Here we are nine years later, I think it’s time to hopefully have a very serious good faith look at it.”…

“I started out by saying everything is on the table,” Baucus recalled. “But I did make an exception and that was single-payer. I said, nope, we’re not going to put single-payer on the table. Why? In my judgement, America was just not there … It’s branded as socialistic by too many people.”…

Baucus compared the issue’s evolution to that of gay rights. “It’s anathema for a long time, and then suddenly — acceptance,” he said.


https://hotair.com/archives/2017/09/10/time-come-obamacare-architect-max-baucus-endorses-single-payer/

[Ninsianna]

81. FYI, hotair is a Right Wing site.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_Air

[Demsrule86]

58. I agree...it is a lose lose situation.

[still_one]

39. That will be the test, and we should all know very shortly

[Demsrule86]

54. I have to say it is terrifying. Morning Joe ripped into Sen. Sanders this morning.

This is a dreadful situation which many of us saw coming.

[LexVegas]

9. They're right. nt

[TCJ70]

12. Depends who you ask?

The usual suspects will try to paint the GOP repeal effort as all Bernie’s fault and ignore the last 8 years of repeal efforts because the combination of the letters S, A, N, D, E, and R in a certain order throw them into a blind rage.

A smaller set of people realize that the GOP is going to do what they’re going to do regardless. The various quotes from GOP congresspeople clearly indicate that they’re only voting for this not because it’s a good idea, but because that was their war cry for 8 years are a clear indicator of that. One more talking point one way or the other isn’t going to change that vote.

For my part, I have no problem with what Sanders did or the timing of it. Keeping the message on point (healthcare as a right) and drawing a clear contrast is important as we wind up for 2018.

[dogman]

15. Just surrender and let the GOP tell us what our agenda should be.

That is the alternative. Fuck that, go Bernie.

[Demsrule86]

59. You do understand because of this...we are about to lose the ACA and Medicaid...a program in .

place for 50 years. Surely, there was a smarter way to play this...one where we gained something instead of losing healthcare that took 100 years to achieve and losing a longstanding program like Medicaid and for what? A single payer bill that Sen. Sanders himself acknowledged was going nowhere.- This political miscalculation has the potential to cause the deaths of thousands-perhaps millions in the end..

[dogman]

68. No, I understand that we have to have an alternative in order to lead.

We cannot let them dictate to us. Should we have ignored DACA? Should we let them pass T-Rump tax reform? We are on the edge of nuclear war, how many will that affect? I realize many here will not check out Bernie's sites, but he has been attacking GOP care for some time. Spreading GOP memes and misinformation are a much greater danger.

[brooklynite]

16. I think they're absolutely right...

Promoting Single Payer has no greater or lesser chance of passing a month from now. For the moment anything that distracts from the self-immolation of the Republican health care bill is either idiocy or self-serving.

[Vinca]

19. You'd think citizens of the United States didn't deserve what every other civilized nation has.

Even the ACA, which was a massive improvement, left millions of people out in the cold. The one and only way to cover every single person is to cover every single person. They can bash all they want, but they'd better not veer to one of the heart-wrenching stories of a person dying for lack of medical care and leaving a half dozen children behind.

[brooklynite]

21. One again...supporting Universal Health Care is not inconsistent with not wanting to debate it NOW..

[Vinca]

24. Actually, it might be a stroke of genius. Bernie's megaphone is going to bring the message to

Republicans as well as Democrats. GOP legislators may start to realize keeping the ACA is their best option. If you're a poor, GOP voter in the south would you rather have private insurance with large premiums or the same kind of Medicare Grandma has?

[brooklynite]

25. And WHY can't that brilliant strategy wait until THERE'S NO WAY FOR REPUBLICANS TO PASS SOMETHING?

We're not talking about next year. We're not talking about three months. We're talking about NEXT SUNDAY.

[samnsara]

28. i agree.. i hope this doesnt screw us over bigtime but i fear..

...it will.

[samnsara]

30. the first thing that will come up is how are we gonna pay..

...for it and if the answer is to tax the rich.. we're toast..

[Vinca]

34. Ridiculous. Raise taxes on everyone. Would you rather pay $12,000 in insurance premiums or

a tax increase of $5,000? Republicans have made taxation the ultimate evil and that's the problem. If we had taxes similar to countries with socialized medicine and free college, we'd be a whole lot better off as a nation. Democrats need to stop being intimidated by Republicans.

[dogman]

36. Don't you know we must bow before GOP talking points?

If you don't you're not a real Democrat.

[Vinca]

73. I know what you mean. It drives me out of my mind.

Democrats seem to tippy toe around Republicans, fearful of upsetting them, and then are surprised when our message isn't heard by the masses. The sorry part is, when asked about particulars the vast majority of voters side with Democrats. Yet . . . here we are. GOP House, GOP Senate and Raving Fucking Lunatic in the White House.

[melman]

75. Yep

That seems to be the popular message lately. Very odd indeed.

[brooklynite]

20. Which specific criticism of Sanders do you dispute?

[oberliner]

46. I think he will do a good job of pointing out how awful Graham-Cassidy is

He and Amy K will tear it apart.

[Arazi]

22. I think this debate is happening with Dem leadership approval

With Bernie Sanders and Amy Klobuchar being handpicked to participate

[dogman]

23. Were they bashing John Conyers too?

He supports it, is he not Democratic enough?

[oberliner]

45. They focused only on Bernie

Mika sort of tried to bring up Amy K also but no one really engaged.

[dogman]

52. Shocking!

Almost like there is an agenda.

[GaryCnf]

26. We think that Joe is a REPUBLICAN

And the people who are parroting what he says are helping him.

[samnsara]

27. i always thought the debate was a terrible idea.. this show just..

...validated my fear...

[OKNancy]

29. not bashing. and they are correct. this debate is really stupid

right now. Sanders needs to wait until after they vote to push his plan.
Right now his goal should be to save the ACA

[oberliner]

44. Bashing means "severely criticizing"

Which is what they are doing.

Whether or not that criticism is justified is what I am asking for thoughts on.

[scheming daemons]

31. theyre absolutely right. 100% of focus has to be on defeating GC and saving ACA

any talk of single payer at THIS debate helps Republicans and their chances to get GC passed.

Bernie is absolutely the wrong person for this debate next week.

AFTER we kill GC, THEN turn the focus to SP.

[dogman]

38. Of course.

Absolutely no one listens to Bernie. Right? Can Amy Klobuchar still participate?

[scheming daemons]

66. The point is that, with Bernie there, the questions will turn to SP... and allow GC to be

...framed as the "sensible alternative" to SP.

We're a defcon 5 here..... GC needs to be killed next week, on its OWN lack of merits.

Allowing Graham to frame the debate as GC vs SP will give cover to Murkowski, McCain, and other Republicans to vote for GC.


This debate has to be GC vs keeping ACA... not GC vs SP.

[dogman]

67. Should we abandon DACA and ignore the tax bill too?

We have to be muti-functional, the GOP are.

[scheming daemons]

70. Those things aren't part of the CNN debate next week.

This thread, and myself, are talking specifically about the CNN debate about Obamacare repeal.

[dogman]

72. And you don't think they will be asked about a fix for ACA?

What would their answer be?

[brush]

83. Spot on. Way to zero right in on what matters.

[riderinthestorm]

32. Hilarious that nobody will touch the fact that Klobuchar is also participating

Or that Conyers is hammering daily for single payer.

[TCJ70]

35. Those folks have a (D) after their names...

...and speaking of names, they don’t have the letters S, A, N, D, E, and R in the right order to inspire outrage. The pattern here is clear.

[WhiteTara]

62. I wonder if they will even let her talk.

[R B Garr]

69. Not so fast. You don't get to smear good elected Democrats over this. nt

[doc03]

37. I think they are right, if Bernie uses this debate to push

for single payer he will kill Obamacare. The Republicans had given up on repeal and replace until Bernie
injected his Medicare for all into the argument. If it is a debate on socialized medicine we have already
lost ACA.

[dogman]

42. An educated public is just to dangerous.

Let the GOP spin dominate the MSM and see what we get.

[doc03]

48. Every time Democrats have tried to do anything with health care

the Republicans have called it Socialism and won the argument. The only way we got the ACA was
the fact we had a majority in congress. Well we don't now and with Bernie's help we are going
to lose again.

[dogman]

50. Surrender or resist?

I know what my choice is.

[samnsara]

41. its not just morning joe..its everywhere...all agree its a bad idea.

..bad bad bad and now I am scared..

[dogman]

43. Everyone knows Morning Joe stands for the Democratic Party's interests at heart.

Odd we follow the guy who enabled T-Rump's takeover of his Party and then declared himself an Independent.

[Nanjeanne]

47. Well I watched an excellent video on Sanders FB yesterday with his policy experts all about

the horrible effects of this Graham Cassidy bill. He has been talking about killing the bill constantly on FB and on Twitter. This assumption that Sanders will be using this platform solely to push MFA is being viewed through the decided already glasses of some.

Sanders will go after the bill with facts. But he will also bring a sense of moral outrage that all people should have about it. If he mentions MFA in the debate, it will be in the context of other countries have solved their healthcare problems with systems that are more cost effective, more universal and with better outcomes and the US citizens deserve the same. Not a bad thing to say, and one that most Americans can get behind But I'm sure he will focus on the disaster of the Rs bill. I, for one, am happy he and Klobuchar will give information and facts to the US audience who need to be energized to call their Senators and express their outrage.

That CNN and MSNBC - and other mainstream media - will try to drum up ratings or peddle this as a gimmick or reality tv fight night - is not surprising. Nor is the reaction here by some surprising. Only sad.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

49. How awesome that so many here are getting ready to blame Sanders

if the Republicans can get the votes to actually do what they have been saying they would do for seven years.

Yeah, this is Sanders' fault.

[GaryCnf]

53. Perhaps it's because they don't want to talk about

the FACT that the only reason we don't have a solid majority in both chambers of Congress (in other words, the ONLY reason the ACA is at risk today) is because the people who support running away from MFA now instead of defending it are the EXACT SAME people who supported the centrist "blue dog" when they ran away from Obamacare instead of defending it in 2010 and got beat as a result.

The thing about surrendering instead of fighting is . . . you lose.

[Kaleva]

51. Why would any progressive spend time watching Morning Joe in the first place?

[jalan48]

64. +1

Nothing like the opinion of a Republican on TV to get the troops excited.

[Adrahil]

55. I think his push for his plan that will not get passed is unwise right now.

I think we need to kill this last attempt to destroy the ACA and THEN he can engage in his pir-in-the-sky promotion.

[oberliner]

71. Is he necessarily going to push for that in his debate?

I think he would be wise to focus on Graham-Cassidy.

[Adrahil]

74. I would hope so, but....

... even introducing his bill before closing the door on the reconciliation efforts to repeal ACA was jumping the gun, IMO.

[JI7]

86. They will bring it up don he needs to be prepared to respond

And bring the focus on saving ACA and how bad graham/cassidy is.

[jalan48]

65. Sounds like our corporate healthcare owners are concerned. Joe and Mika to the rescue.

[redstatebluegirl]

76. Bernie wants to be President more than he cares about the country right now.

Now is not the time to push single payer, try to keep ACA before we end up with Trumpcare and can't get rid of it. This nonsense of "blowing up the system" by letting Trump win is nonsense.

[left-of-center2012]

77. Stirring the pot?

No quotes?
No links?
No nothing?

Just another bash Bernie post.

Pathetic.

In my humble opinion.

[oberliner]

84. Huh?

I'm not bashing Bernie. I was frustrated that Morning Joe was.

I think Bernie and Amy will do well - showing the audience how awful Graham-Cassidy is.

[Demsrule86]

82. It will only get worse. If the ACA goes there will be hell to pay. NT

[Weekend Warrior]

85. That's how you know your playing big ball.