General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMorning Joe devoted to bashing Bernie this AM
The entire team is going off on him, talking about how foolish (or worse) he is to push for this health care debate now and that he is playing into Republican hands.
What do folks here think?
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)as a push-point to pass Graham-Cassidy, and that is a good argument for the Repubs. Sanders has not stepped back on it.
It's valid. It's not bashing to point out that Bernie's actions have helped the Repubs, and that some Dems have made statements about this not being the discussion the Dems want to have right now: Graham-Cassidy vs socialistic health care (Bernie's bill).
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Which is what they have been doing all morning.
Whether their criticism is justified or not is what I am asking for thoughts on from my fellow DU-ers.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)synonyms: criticize, censure, assail, attack, condemn, revile, denounce, rail against, cast aspersions on.
They aren't unjustly railing against, attacking, assailing him. This is a factual discussion pointing out that Bernie did something that may get the Repub bill passed, and that he hasn't stepped back on it. And that is something that shows up the difference between a member of the Democratic Party and one who is not, although has many issues in common.
Bernie doesn't always play with the Dem Party team, because he's not a Democrat. One Dem made the remark that he's not being a team player. Which is not bashing. It's pointing out what his actions show.
brush
(53,728 posts)have been after the time period where only 51 votes could repeal and replace the ACA.
Now the repugs are using it as an anti-socialism talking point to pass the horrible trumpcare bill.
kstewart33
(6,551 posts)Bernie should have waited until after the vote. The Republicans have used his plan in their campaign to pass G-C.
Looks like it won't matter. Hoping that's the case.
Demsrule86
(68,455 posts)The GOP are completely ruthless and quite clever at making others the bad guy...
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)Demsrule86
(68,455 posts)he is playing into their hands. If it is a defense of the ACA and an attack on murdercare, it could help. Time will tell.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)And why it is a horrendous bill that must be defeated.
Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)and encouraging people to call about his bill, as if the GC bill is merely an afterthought.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)or putting forth ideas that would help and strengthen it - that would be very helpful. No - he's using this time to take the spotlight off the putrid republican bill and pushing his own agenda.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)The ONLY focus should be on the republican bill. Bringing up universal care at this time was stupidity beyond belief (I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he wasn't trying to purposely hurt the Democrats and was simply just being stupid). the MJ crew is 100% right about this one.
Old Vet
(2,001 posts)Iam very cool with Sanders helping to kill this terrible new healthcare repeal law, Helping to educate people about the harm of the new repeal law does help. And both Independents and Democrats can agree on.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)There are plenty of Democrats more knowledgeable and more articulate than Bernie. He's a terrible debater and when he starts shouting and starts wagging that finger, he's just going to drive away the very people we need to keep in the fold.
This is not about Bernie's support for ACA. This is about Bernie grandstanding for his own ends.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)and Sen Sanders' ego didn't allow him to see it for what it was.
Demsrule86
(68,455 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)wouldn't have been fooled by this obvious stunt by Graham.
Demsrule86
(68,455 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)redeem himself for the stupidity would be to spend that ENTIRE debate on Monday trashing the republican bill and saying it isn't the right time to discuss his bill while the healthcare of millions is in peril RIGHT NOW.
Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)samnsara
(17,604 posts)...that sort of posturing may not sit well with others esp if theres an issue with authority ( or just another old white guy telling me what to do)
Demsrule86
(68,455 posts)dogman
(6,073 posts)I just think the time has come, Baucus told NBC News Friday, after stunning healthcare observers earlier in the day by seemingly coming around on single-payer at a public forum. Back in 09, we were not ready to address it. It would never have passed. Here we are nine years later, I think its time to hopefully have a very serious good faith look at it.
I started out by saying everything is on the table, Baucus recalled. But I did make an exception and that was single-payer. I said, nope, were not going to put single-payer on the table. Why? In my judgement, America was just not there
Its branded as socialistic by too many people.
Baucus compared the issues evolution to that of gay rights. Its anathema for a long time, and then suddenly acceptance, he said.
https://hotair.com/archives/2017/09/10/time-come-obamacare-architect-max-baucus-endorses-single-payer/
Ninsianna
(1,349 posts)Demsrule86
(68,455 posts)still_one
(92,060 posts)Demsrule86
(68,455 posts)This is a dreadful situation which many of us saw coming.
LexVegas
(6,024 posts)TCJ70
(4,387 posts)The usual suspects will try to paint the GOP repeal effort as all Bernies fault and ignore the last 8 years of repeal efforts because the combination of the letters S, A, N, D, E, and R in a certain order throw them into a blind rage.
A smaller set of people realize that the GOP is going to do what theyre going to do regardless. The various quotes from GOP congresspeople clearly indicate that theyre only voting for this not because its a good idea, but because that was their war cry for 8 years are a clear indicator of that. One more talking point one way or the other isnt going to change that vote.
For my part, I have no problem with what Sanders did or the timing of it. Keeping the message on point (healthcare as a right) and drawing a clear contrast is important as we wind up for 2018.
dogman
(6,073 posts)That is the alternative. Fuck that, go Bernie.
Demsrule86
(68,455 posts)place for 50 years. Surely, there was a smarter way to play this...one where we gained something instead of losing healthcare that took 100 years to achieve and losing a longstanding program like Medicaid and for what? A single payer bill that Sen. Sanders himself acknowledged was going nowhere.- This political miscalculation has the potential to cause the deaths of thousands-perhaps millions in the end..
dogman
(6,073 posts)We cannot let them dictate to us. Should we have ignored DACA? Should we let them pass T-Rump tax reform? We are on the edge of nuclear war, how many will that affect? I realize many here will not check out Bernie's sites, but he has been attacking GOP care for some time. Spreading GOP memes and misinformation are a much greater danger.
brooklynite
(94,302 posts)Promoting Single Payer has no greater or lesser chance of passing a month from now. For the moment anything that distracts from the self-immolation of the Republican health care bill is either idiocy or self-serving.
Vinca
(50,236 posts)Even the ACA, which was a massive improvement, left millions of people out in the cold. The one and only way to cover every single person is to cover every single person. They can bash all they want, but they'd better not veer to one of the heart-wrenching stories of a person dying for lack of medical care and leaving a half dozen children behind.
brooklynite
(94,302 posts)Vinca
(50,236 posts)Republicans as well as Democrats. GOP legislators may start to realize keeping the ACA is their best option. If you're a poor, GOP voter in the south would you rather have private insurance with large premiums or the same kind of Medicare Grandma has?
brooklynite
(94,302 posts)We're not talking about next year. We're not talking about three months. We're talking about NEXT SUNDAY.
samnsara
(17,604 posts)...it will.
samnsara
(17,604 posts)...for it and if the answer is to tax the rich.. we're toast..
Vinca
(50,236 posts)a tax increase of $5,000? Republicans have made taxation the ultimate evil and that's the problem. If we had taxes similar to countries with socialized medicine and free college, we'd be a whole lot better off as a nation. Democrats need to stop being intimidated by Republicans.
dogman
(6,073 posts)If you don't you're not a real Democrat.
Vinca
(50,236 posts)Democrats seem to tippy toe around Republicans, fearful of upsetting them, and then are surprised when our message isn't heard by the masses. The sorry part is, when asked about particulars the vast majority of voters side with Democrats. Yet . . . here we are. GOP House, GOP Senate and Raving Fucking Lunatic in the White House.
That seems to be the popular message lately. Very odd indeed.
brooklynite
(94,302 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)He and Amy K will tear it apart.
Arazi
(6,829 posts)With Bernie Sanders and Amy Klobuchar being handpicked to participate
dogman
(6,073 posts)He supports it, is he not Democratic enough?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Mika sort of tried to bring up Amy K also but no one really engaged.
dogman
(6,073 posts)Almost like there is an agenda.
GaryCnf
(1,399 posts)And the people who are parroting what he says are helping him.
samnsara
(17,604 posts)...validated my fear...
OKNancy
(41,832 posts)right now. Sanders needs to wait until after they vote to push his plan.
Right now his goal should be to save the ACA
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Which is what they are doing.
Whether or not that criticism is justified is what I am asking for thoughts on.
scheming daemons
(25,487 posts)any talk of single payer at THIS debate helps Republicans and their chances to get GC passed.
Bernie is absolutely the wrong person for this debate next week.
AFTER we kill GC, THEN turn the focus to SP.
dogman
(6,073 posts)Absolutely no one listens to Bernie. Right? Can Amy Klobuchar still participate?
scheming daemons
(25,487 posts)...framed as the "sensible alternative" to SP.
We're a defcon 5 here..... GC needs to be killed next week, on its OWN lack of merits.
Allowing Graham to frame the debate as GC vs SP will give cover to Murkowski, McCain, and other Republicans to vote for GC.
This debate has to be GC vs keeping ACA... not GC vs SP.
dogman
(6,073 posts)We have to be muti-functional, the GOP are.
scheming daemons
(25,487 posts)This thread, and myself, are talking specifically about the CNN debate about Obamacare repeal.
dogman
(6,073 posts)What would their answer be?
brush
(53,728 posts)riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Or that Conyers is hammering daily for single payer.
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)...and speaking of names, they dont have the letters S, A, N, D, E, and R in the right order to inspire outrage. The pattern here is clear.
WhiteTara
(29,692 posts)R B Garr
(16,950 posts)doc03
(35,293 posts)for single payer he will kill Obamacare. The Republicans had given up on repeal and replace until Bernie
injected his Medicare for all into the argument. If it is a debate on socialized medicine we have already
lost ACA.
dogman
(6,073 posts)Let the GOP spin dominate the MSM and see what we get.
doc03
(35,293 posts)the Republicans have called it Socialism and won the argument. The only way we got the ACA was
the fact we had a majority in congress. Well we don't now and with Bernie's help we are going
to lose again.
dogman
(6,073 posts)I know what my choice is.
samnsara
(17,604 posts)..bad bad bad and now I am scared..
dogman
(6,073 posts)Odd we follow the guy who enabled T-Rump's takeover of his Party and then declared himself an Independent.
Nanjeanne
(4,915 posts)the horrible effects of this Graham Cassidy bill. He has been talking about killing the bill constantly on FB and on Twitter. This assumption that Sanders will be using this platform solely to push MFA is being viewed through the decided already glasses of some.
Sanders will go after the bill with facts. But he will also bring a sense of moral outrage that all people should have about it. If he mentions MFA in the debate, it will be in the context of other countries have solved their healthcare problems with systems that are more cost effective, more universal and with better outcomes and the US citizens deserve the same. Not a bad thing to say, and one that most Americans can get behind But I'm sure he will focus on the disaster of the Rs bill. I, for one, am happy he and Klobuchar will give information and facts to the US audience who need to be energized to call their Senators and express their outrage.
That CNN and MSNBC - and other mainstream media - will try to drum up ratings or peddle this as a gimmick or reality tv fight night - is not surprising. Nor is the reaction here by some surprising. Only sad.
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,905 posts)if the Republicans can get the votes to actually do what they have been saying they would do for seven years.
Yeah, this is Sanders' fault.
GaryCnf
(1,399 posts)the FACT that the only reason we don't have a solid majority in both chambers of Congress (in other words, the ONLY reason the ACA is at risk today) is because the people who support running away from MFA now instead of defending it are the EXACT SAME people who supported the centrist "blue dog" when they ran away from Obamacare instead of defending it in 2010 and got beat as a result.
The thing about surrendering instead of fighting is . . . you lose.
Kaleva
(36,240 posts)Nothing like the opinion of a Republican on TV to get the troops excited.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)I think we need to kill this last attempt to destroy the ACA and THEN he can engage in his pir-in-the-sky promotion.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I think he would be wise to focus on Graham-Cassidy.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)... even introducing his bill before closing the door on the reconciliation efforts to repeal ACA was jumping the gun, IMO.
JI7
(89,239 posts)And bring the focus on saving ACA and how bad graham/cassidy is.
jalan48
(13,839 posts)redstatebluegirl
(12,265 posts)Now is not the time to push single payer, try to keep ACA before we end up with Trumpcare and can't get rid of it. This nonsense of "blowing up the system" by letting Trump win is nonsense.
left-of-center2012
(34,195 posts)No quotes?
No links?
No nothing?
Just another bash Bernie post.
Pathetic.
In my humble opinion.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I'm not bashing Bernie. I was frustrated that Morning Joe was.
I think Bernie and Amy will do well - showing the audience how awful Graham-Cassidy is.