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Eliot Rosewater

(31,097 posts)
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 05:55 PM Sep 2017

So let me get this straight, an employer can FORCE you to be subjected to the National

Anthem and you MUST be patriotic (in their minds) in your response, but you are simultaneously by employment contract NOT allowed to dissent from being FORCED into showing some sort of phony baloney patriotism?

So the employment rule is politics is only allowed on THEIR terms? Such a contract can exist like that and a good attorney cant fight that ?

Any attorneys here?

45 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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So let me get this straight, an employer can FORCE you to be subjected to the National (Original Post) Eliot Rosewater Sep 2017 OP
Sure jberryhill Sep 2017 #1
So you can make it a job requirement to be patriotic during a song? Eliot Rosewater Sep 2017 #4
Sure, why not? jberryhill Sep 2017 #9
All the more reason for everyone to have the option of being in a union. Eliot Rosewater Sep 2017 #25
Unions can try to bargain anything they want. WhiskeyGrinder Sep 2017 #30
I don't think so . . . but they can make you stand and put your hand over your heart DrDan Sep 2017 #10
Not sure what it means to make you be patriotic, but yes they can make you stand at attention onenote Sep 2017 #22
But the NFL players have a union, so they aren't at-will employees. The Velveteen Ocelot Sep 2017 #26
The OP question is not about NFL employees jberryhill Sep 2017 #36
They are entertainers and do have to meet certain performance requirements. They are also union... PoliticAverse Sep 2017 #2
Yep Lee-Lee Sep 2017 #3
Now he's going to have to start another thread.... jberryhill Sep 2017 #19
Lol! cwydro Sep 2017 #21
No, I actually was looking for you to respond, I didnt really want to get my answer from a certain Eliot Rosewater Sep 2017 #28
I'm wrong often jberryhill Sep 2017 #44
Owners are demanding participation in one way , not the other. Eliot Rosewater Sep 2017 #45
Exactly right. I am a lawyer. Why do you want one? AngryAmish Sep 2017 #5
That was my question, as an employer who sells typewriters, i can force patriotic songs on Eliot Rosewater Sep 2017 #6
What you'd have to do... jberryhill Sep 2017 #12
But you would have to back that claim up Lee-Lee Sep 2017 #13
Yeah jberryhill Sep 2017 #15
We had a guy where I work try that Lee-Lee Sep 2017 #23
The case I had in mind was this one.... jberryhill Sep 2017 #20
but you could break into a coughing fit, sneeze, vomit... samnsara Sep 2017 #31
I believe if you had a daily vomit... jberryhill Sep 2017 #37
Yup. Eko Sep 2017 #7
It's like you've never heard of an employee code of conduct. WhiskeyGrinder Sep 2017 #8
Basically, yes . . . MousePlayingDaffodil Sep 2017 #11
They can even make you wear flair!... PoliticAverse Sep 2017 #14
Heh-heh MousePlayingDaffodil Sep 2017 #18
It's a great movie Lee-Lee Sep 2017 #24
One of my favorite movies ever! smirkymonkey Sep 2017 #32
This is ABSOLUTELY the reason companies are able to fire outed Nazi protesters we seen in the news. JoeStuckInOH Sep 2017 #16
Eliot apparently believes you are required to employ Nazis jberryhill Sep 2017 #17
Are you a federal employee? leftstreet Sep 2017 #27
i was tricked into going to a 'prayer meeting' ... samnsara Sep 2017 #29
That's interesting I had this same convo with a local at at a bar tonight. Volaris Sep 2017 #33
OK. I have some experience in this louis c Sep 2017 #34
OK, so as you and others have stated, you can be forced to show patriotism so to speak. Eliot Rosewater Sep 2017 #35
If you are an employee at will louis c Sep 2017 #38
"Offices, gas stations, fortune 500 companies, Wall Street, etc." jberryhill Sep 2017 #39
The First Amendment does not apply at work. guillaumeb Sep 2017 #40
Yep....I don't get why people don't know that. AncientGeezer Sep 2017 #41
Welcome to DU, and the discussion. guillaumeb Sep 2017 #42
I know that Jehovahs Witnesses don't participate in pledge of allegiance ecstatic Sep 2017 #43
 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
1. Sure
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 06:01 PM
Sep 2017

When they play the Mickey Mouse Club theme at Disney World, the employees have to act enthusiastically too.

"Any attorneys here?"

Yes.

As an employer, you can fire any at-will employee at any time for any reason, provided it is not a specifically unlawful reason (race, sex, religion (except religious organizations), handicap). Any other reason is fine.

Eliot Rosewater

(31,097 posts)
25. All the more reason for everyone to have the option of being in a union.
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 06:58 PM
Sep 2017

Right, I am assuming a union has the right once they exist in a workplace to make it a condition their members not have to be forced to participate in non work related patriotism?

All participation in patriotism would be non work related for 99% of employers.

WhiskeyGrinder

(22,147 posts)
30. Unions can try to bargain anything they want.
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 07:04 PM
Sep 2017

So can employers. That's why it's called a collective bargaining agreement.

onenote

(42,383 posts)
22. Not sure what it means to make you be patriotic, but yes they can make you stand at attention
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 06:32 PM
Sep 2017

during work hours. State laws vary in terms of protection of political activity outside work hours (most don't protect it).

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
36. The OP question is not about NFL employees
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 07:39 PM
Sep 2017

And my answer excludes union members, or indeed anyone with an employment contract.

This question evolved from another thread, and was intended as a general proposition.

No, you don't have to employ Nazis, KKK members, etc.

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
2. They are entertainers and do have to meet certain performance requirements. They are also union...
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 06:02 PM
Sep 2017

(NFL Players Association - https://www.nflpa.com/ ) and I'm sure have attorneys they can consult.


 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
3. Yep
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 06:03 PM
Sep 2017

I don't know why you started a new post because you didn't like the answers you were getting in the first one, but the answer is the same.

If they deem it part of the job, then yes.

For example a NASCAR event, what your post was about, is a public exhibition and entertainment event. Part of that entertainment event is the ceremony that includes the playing of the National Anthem. If the employer determines that you need to conduct yourself in a certain fashion during that part of the event, then you have to.

Given that it is a public exhibition and conduct that the fans don't like can hurt the employers brand and ability to make money they would have every cause to fire an employee who conducts themselves in a way they feel harms their team or brand.

Eliot Rosewater

(31,097 posts)
28. No, I actually was looking for you to respond, I didnt really want to get my answer from a certain
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 07:01 PM
Sep 2017

poster so I started a new thread hoping you and other board lawyers would notice and respond.

You are the poster I linked to the new thread for that reason.

Personally, being wrong is an opportunity, I always see it that way. Many dont, but I do.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
44. I'm wrong often
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 10:43 PM
Sep 2017

But can I ask you a question?

I am self employed and run my own business. If I hire somebody insists on singing the national anthem upon arriving at the office and just before work starts, would you have a problem with me deciding I didn't want that person in my office every morning?

Not that I'd actually care in that scenario, but do you believe that I have to hire and retain someone that I find annoying for whatever personal definition of "annoying" that might be? (And, again, that excludes any of the legally prohibited reasons)

Like, let's say I hire someone and find out they love telling knock-knock jokes. Every day they have a different knock-knock joke and insist on telling it. Are you telling me there is some law where I have to listen to knock-knock jokes every day, because otherwise I'd be interfering with that person's freedom of speech?

Eliot Rosewater

(31,097 posts)
45. Owners are demanding participation in one way , not the other.
Tue Sep 26, 2017, 12:01 PM
Sep 2017

Last edited Tue Sep 26, 2017, 02:06 PM - Edit history (2)

That is the crux.




What I dont like is an employer can demand you sing a patriotic song and fire you if you dont when the song has zip to do with your job, or PREVENT you from singing the same song.

But, as you have all explained, any employer can do any horrible thing they want in this country as long as it isnt legal discrimination of the main reasons like race, gender, national origin, disability, religion, genetic information, or age (if the person is at least 40 years old).

All the more reason every single American should have the ability to join a union at the job. Now this will never happen, of course, but that is how it should be.

I will go one further, I would love to see federal laws that apply to ALL employers that provide far more protection that what now exists. But we will go in the opposite direction of that and soon. First I suspect OSHA will be gone, and if not stopped (changing subjects) all consumer protection gone too, like nutritional labeling, cars that have to meet certain safety standards, etc.

Everything that costs corp America money that they dont want to do, gone.

Hell if it were up to me our tax structure would be that there are NO billionaires, at all.

 

AngryAmish

(25,704 posts)
5. Exactly right. I am a lawyer. Why do you want one?
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 06:04 PM
Sep 2017

There are certain state exemptions but very much the exception.

Eliot Rosewater

(31,097 posts)
6. That was my question, as an employer who sells typewriters, i can force patriotic songs on
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 06:06 PM
Sep 2017

my employees and if I was fired for not standing no attorney would bother taking my case were I to sue.

got it

Just asking.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
12. What you'd have to do...
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 06:10 PM
Sep 2017

The edge case here is whether you are refusing to stand on the basis of a religious belief. At that point, you could claim you were fired because of your religious belief, for which the employer refused to provide a reasonable accommodation.
 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
13. But you would have to back that claim up
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 06:12 PM
Sep 2017

Showing evidence of your religious affiliation and why that particular act was in conflict.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
15. Yeah
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 06:13 PM
Sep 2017

Let's say he's Amish or JW.

But if it is "My particular religion, which consists of however I'm feeling on any given day", then, no.

 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
23. We had a guy where I work try that
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 06:37 PM
Sep 2017

Took a promotion to a job he knew required working Saturdays. Worked them for a few months and then suddenly declared he was a Seventh Day Adventust and demanded to be moved to the weekday only shift in his new higher position.

It didn't work out for him.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
20. The case I had in mind was this one....
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 06:24 PM
Sep 2017
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/06/01/411213623/supreme-court-rules-for-woman-denied-abercrombie-fitch-job-over-headscarf

Supreme Court Rules For Woman Denied Abercrombie & Fitch Job Over Headscarf

----

But that's much more clearly a case of religious discrimination, as it would be if one had an employee who was a Jehovah's Witness and didn't want to say the Pledge of Allegiance.
 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
37. I believe if you had a daily vomit...
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 07:40 PM
Sep 2017

...then you might be let go for other reasons, unless this was a medically confirmed disability.

WhiskeyGrinder

(22,147 posts)
8. It's like you've never heard of an employee code of conduct.
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 06:06 PM
Sep 2017

Or understand why it exists. You might want to reread your employee handbook and any other employment papers you signed when you started your current job.

11. Basically, yes . . .
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 06:08 PM
Sep 2017

Subject to particular state laws that may preclude it, such a contract would be permissible. If you were opposed to such conditions, you would, of course, be perfectly within your rights to decline to enter into such a contract and seek employment elsewhere.

And there need not be any "contract" at all. If you are an "at will" employee, your employer could terminate you for failing to stand for the National Anthem if he or she felt like it (unless, again, there were some state law that precluded job discrimination on the basis of, I don't even know how it would be expressed . . . ideological outlook or political views or whatever.)

Look it at this way: your employer can tell you what to wear, no? I mean, if you're working at a restaurant or fast-food joint and there's a uniform, your employer can tell you "no political buttons," no? He or she can tell you "while at work, wear this American flag pin on your collar," too, no?

18. Heh-heh
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 06:20 PM
Sep 2017

I never saw this movie, so thanks for the clip. It reminded me that, many, many years ago, before I went to law school, I worked for a while as a barback at a T.G.I. Friday's. It was a good job. I liked it. Never did wear any silly buttons, though, like my bartender colleagues. Nobody held it against me, though.

 

JoeStuckInOH

(544 posts)
16. This is ABSOLUTELY the reason companies are able to fire outed Nazi protesters we seen in the news.
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 06:15 PM
Sep 2017

Employee gets outed as a Racist Nazi via twitter/facebook because of a media photo showing them front and center at political rallys. Then people complain to the employer and the employer wants nothing to do with that employee anymore. Maintining that employee is bad for PR Optics so they are quickly fired.

And on the flip side of the coin, NASCAR is now giving an ultimatum that they will fire any NASCAR employees visibly protesting the National Anthem in support of equal rights political movements.

The sword cuts both ways.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
17. Eliot apparently believes you are required to employ Nazis
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 06:17 PM
Sep 2017

Why? I don't know.

Personally, if I found out an employee was a Nazi, I'd be looking to get rid of him or her.

samnsara

(17,570 posts)
29. i was tricked into going to a 'prayer meeting' ...
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 07:03 PM
Sep 2017

.....by a friend and everyone in the room held hands and individually said a little prayer. She KNOWS I'm atheist.. I just stood there silent when it came to my turn. Everyone looked at me waiting for my I love god speech. NO ONE tells me what to say or when.

Volaris

(10,260 posts)
33. That's interesting I had this same convo with a local at at a bar tonight.
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 07:21 PM
Sep 2017

He asked me about it (a perfect stranger, mind you).
My response was that as long as they are private sector employees and their employer doesn't care, they can behave however the fuck they want...If we're going to embrace the tenants of corporate-capital Private Sector as an avenue of legitimate employment opportunity and tax dollars, we don't GET to have an opinion on what those PRIVATE SECTOR employees are allowed and what they aren't, even IF those sporting events are broadcast to the General Public via MORE private-sector corporations.

He started to protest because he seemed unsure if I was on his side or not (he clearly didn't approve of the players actions) but he shut the fuck up when I told him that NFL games were NOT broadcast on PBS, right? Since that's the case, it doesn't matter what we think of it, IT'S UP TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR EMPLOYER.
He promptly shut the fuck up about it and left me to my salad and scotch lol

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
34. OK. I have some experience in this
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 07:31 PM
Sep 2017

If you are an employee at will, meaning an employee without a contract, your employer can discipline or terminate you "without cause" (meaning for any reason or no reason or explanation).

The exceptions are that an employer can not fire you exclusively for gender, age, race, sexual preference (not all states, but in my state of Mass.), disability, religion or being in any other "protected class". The burden of proof is on the employee to prove that they got fired illegally. Speech is not protected.

If you work in a union, you have a collective bargaining agreement (CBA) or, in other words, a contract. In that contract is a management rights clause which entitles the company to discipline or discharge only for "just cause". Most (If not all) CBA's give the company the right to make "reasonable work rules". Unless it is stated that the employee must stand at attention for the national anthem, the company must make that a work rule, with the consultation with the union (and in some cases of a strong CBA, the approval of the union).

I worked at a race track which started the day with the National Anthem. We had no such rule. Later, we added simulcasting racing from as many as 25 other tracks in a 6 hour day. The National Anthem was playing all the time. We had to work right through it, otherwise people couldn't get their bets in from tracks already active.

Eliot Rosewater

(31,097 posts)
35. OK, so as you and others have stated, you can be forced to show patriotism so to speak.
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 07:37 PM
Sep 2017

In fact you can be forced to do almost anything (unless it runs afoul of OSHA or what you pointed out), which is ridiculous, isnt it.

All the more reason for the moral of this story to be how every American should have the right to join a union if they so choose to do that and this would include every single non management position in America.

Offices, gas stations, fortune 500 companies, Wall Street, etc.

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
38. If you are an employee at will
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 08:00 PM
Sep 2017

you can be fired by the employer without being given a reason.

But even if you are fired for "political speech", your employer is protected.

During Charlottesville, Nazis were outed through social media, and they were fired for just being there. Everyone of them was an employee at will.

However, an IBEW electrician from San Francisco was "outed" as a participant at that march, but the union protected his job.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
39. "Offices, gas stations, fortune 500 companies, Wall Street, etc."
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 08:01 PM
Sep 2017

Does this sort of thing occur with any great frequency in ordinary places of employment?

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
40. The First Amendment does not apply at work.
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 08:02 PM
Sep 2017

It applies only to the government violating free speech protections.

I worked for 37 years for a unionized Federal government agency. There are limitations on what any employee can say at work.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
42. Welcome to DU, and the discussion.
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 09:11 PM
Sep 2017

I was a union representative for over 30 years, and I would say that the majority of the people whom I represented had no idea of the limits on free speech in any workplace.

ecstatic

(32,567 posts)
43. I know that Jehovahs Witnesses don't participate in pledge of allegiance
Mon Sep 25, 2017, 09:17 PM
Sep 2017

So that employer would also be violating freedom of religion laws. smh

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