General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSo let me get this straight, an employer can FORCE you to be subjected to the National
Anthem and you MUST be patriotic (in their minds) in your response, but you are simultaneously by employment contract NOT allowed to dissent from being FORCED into showing some sort of phony baloney patriotism?
So the employment rule is politics is only allowed on THEIR terms? Such a contract can exist like that and a good attorney cant fight that ?
Any attorneys here?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)When they play the Mickey Mouse Club theme at Disney World, the employees have to act enthusiastically too.
"Any attorneys here?"
Yes.
As an employer, you can fire any at-will employee at any time for any reason, provided it is not a specifically unlawful reason (race, sex, religion (except religious organizations), handicap). Any other reason is fine.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,097 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Do you think every one of these employees thought this song was fantastic?
Eliot Rosewater
(31,097 posts)Right, I am assuming a union has the right once they exist in a workplace to make it a condition their members not have to be forced to participate in non work related patriotism?
All participation in patriotism would be non work related for 99% of employers.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,147 posts)So can employers. That's why it's called a collective bargaining agreement.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)onenote
(42,383 posts)during work hours. State laws vary in terms of protection of political activity outside work hours (most don't protect it).
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,280 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)And my answer excludes union members, or indeed anyone with an employment contract.
This question evolved from another thread, and was intended as a general proposition.
No, you don't have to employ Nazis, KKK members, etc.
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)(NFL Players Association - https://www.nflpa.com/ ) and I'm sure have attorneys they can consult.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)I don't know why you started a new post because you didn't like the answers you were getting in the first one, but the answer is the same.
If they deem it part of the job, then yes.
For example a NASCAR event, what your post was about, is a public exhibition and entertainment event. Part of that entertainment event is the ceremony that includes the playing of the National Anthem. If the employer determines that you need to conduct yourself in a certain fashion during that part of the event, then you have to.
Given that it is a public exhibition and conduct that the fans don't like can hurt the employers brand and ability to make money they would have every cause to fire an employee who conducts themselves in a way they feel harms their team or brand.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)...until he gets the answers he wants.
Spot on.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,097 posts)poster so I started a new thread hoping you and other board lawyers would notice and respond.
You are the poster I linked to the new thread for that reason.
Personally, being wrong is an opportunity, I always see it that way. Many dont, but I do.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)But can I ask you a question?
I am self employed and run my own business. If I hire somebody insists on singing the national anthem upon arriving at the office and just before work starts, would you have a problem with me deciding I didn't want that person in my office every morning?
Not that I'd actually care in that scenario, but do you believe that I have to hire and retain someone that I find annoying for whatever personal definition of "annoying" that might be? (And, again, that excludes any of the legally prohibited reasons)
Like, let's say I hire someone and find out they love telling knock-knock jokes. Every day they have a different knock-knock joke and insist on telling it. Are you telling me there is some law where I have to listen to knock-knock jokes every day, because otherwise I'd be interfering with that person's freedom of speech?
Eliot Rosewater
(31,097 posts)Last edited Tue Sep 26, 2017, 02:06 PM - Edit history (2)
That is the crux.
What I dont like is an employer can demand you sing a patriotic song and fire you if you dont when the song has zip to do with your job, or PREVENT you from singing the same song.
But, as you have all explained, any employer can do any horrible thing they want in this country as long as it isnt legal discrimination of the main reasons like race, gender, national origin, disability, religion, genetic information, or age (if the person is at least 40 years old).
All the more reason every single American should have the ability to join a union at the job. Now this will never happen, of course, but that is how it should be.
I will go one further, I would love to see federal laws that apply to ALL employers that provide far more protection that what now exists. But we will go in the opposite direction of that and soon. First I suspect OSHA will be gone, and if not stopped (changing subjects) all consumer protection gone too, like nutritional labeling, cars that have to meet certain safety standards, etc.
Everything that costs corp America money that they dont want to do, gone.
Hell if it were up to me our tax structure would be that there are NO billionaires, at all.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)There are certain state exemptions but very much the exception.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,097 posts)my employees and if I was fired for not standing no attorney would bother taking my case were I to sue.
got it
Just asking.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)The edge case here is whether you are refusing to stand on the basis of a religious belief. At that point, you could claim you were fired because of your religious belief, for which the employer refused to provide a reasonable accommodation.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Showing evidence of your religious affiliation and why that particular act was in conflict.
Let's say he's Amish or JW.
But if it is "My particular religion, which consists of however I'm feeling on any given day", then, no.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Took a promotion to a job he knew required working Saturdays. Worked them for a few months and then suddenly declared he was a Seventh Day Adventust and demanded to be moved to the weekday only shift in his new higher position.
It didn't work out for him.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Supreme Court Rules For Woman Denied Abercrombie & Fitch Job Over Headscarf
----
But that's much more clearly a case of religious discrimination, as it would be if one had an employee who was a Jehovah's Witness and didn't want to say the Pledge of Allegiance.
samnsara
(17,570 posts)..whatever it took to get out of it?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)...then you might be let go for other reasons, unless this was a medically confirmed disability.
Eko
(7,170 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(22,147 posts)Or understand why it exists. You might want to reread your employee handbook and any other employment papers you signed when you started your current job.
MousePlayingDaffodil
(748 posts)Subject to particular state laws that may preclude it, such a contract would be permissible. If you were opposed to such conditions, you would, of course, be perfectly within your rights to decline to enter into such a contract and seek employment elsewhere.
And there need not be any "contract" at all. If you are an "at will" employee, your employer could terminate you for failing to stand for the National Anthem if he or she felt like it (unless, again, there were some state law that precluded job discrimination on the basis of, I don't even know how it would be expressed . . . ideological outlook or political views or whatever.)
Look it at this way: your employer can tell you what to wear, no? I mean, if you're working at a restaurant or fast-food joint and there's a uniform, your employer can tell you "no political buttons," no? He or she can tell you "while at work, wear this American flag pin on your collar," too, no?
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)MousePlayingDaffodil
(748 posts)I never saw this movie, so thanks for the clip. It reminded me that, many, many years ago, before I went to law school, I worked for a while as a barback at a T.G.I. Friday's. It was a good job. I liked it. Never did wear any silly buttons, though, like my bartender colleagues. Nobody held it against me, though.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)You have to check it out
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)You should definitely check it out!
JoeStuckInOH
(544 posts)Employee gets outed as a Racist Nazi via twitter/facebook because of a media photo showing them front and center at political rallys. Then people complain to the employer and the employer wants nothing to do with that employee anymore. Maintining that employee is bad for PR Optics so they are quickly fired.
And on the flip side of the coin, NASCAR is now giving an ultimatum that they will fire any NASCAR employees visibly protesting the National Anthem in support of equal rights political movements.
The sword cuts both ways.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Why? I don't know.
Personally, if I found out an employee was a Nazi, I'd be looking to get rid of him or her.
leftstreet
(36,081 posts)Just wondering because private employment law is different from fed
samnsara
(17,570 posts).....by a friend and everyone in the room held hands and individually said a little prayer. She KNOWS I'm atheist.. I just stood there silent when it came to my turn. Everyone looked at me waiting for my I love god speech. NO ONE tells me what to say or when.
Volaris
(10,260 posts)He asked me about it (a perfect stranger, mind you).
My response was that as long as they are private sector employees and their employer doesn't care, they can behave however the fuck they want...If we're going to embrace the tenants of corporate-capital Private Sector as an avenue of legitimate employment opportunity and tax dollars, we don't GET to have an opinion on what those PRIVATE SECTOR employees are allowed and what they aren't, even IF those sporting events are broadcast to the General Public via MORE private-sector corporations.
He started to protest because he seemed unsure if I was on his side or not (he clearly didn't approve of the players actions) but he shut the fuck up when I told him that NFL games were NOT broadcast on PBS, right? Since that's the case, it doesn't matter what we think of it, IT'S UP TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR EMPLOYER.
He promptly shut the fuck up about it and left me to my salad and scotch lol
louis c
(8,652 posts)If you are an employee at will, meaning an employee without a contract, your employer can discipline or terminate you "without cause" (meaning for any reason or no reason or explanation).
The exceptions are that an employer can not fire you exclusively for gender, age, race, sexual preference (not all states, but in my state of Mass.), disability, religion or being in any other "protected class". The burden of proof is on the employee to prove that they got fired illegally. Speech is not protected.
If you work in a union, you have a collective bargaining agreement (CBA) or, in other words, a contract. In that contract is a management rights clause which entitles the company to discipline or discharge only for "just cause". Most (If not all) CBA's give the company the right to make "reasonable work rules". Unless it is stated that the employee must stand at attention for the national anthem, the company must make that a work rule, with the consultation with the union (and in some cases of a strong CBA, the approval of the union).
I worked at a race track which started the day with the National Anthem. We had no such rule. Later, we added simulcasting racing from as many as 25 other tracks in a 6 hour day. The National Anthem was playing all the time. We had to work right through it, otherwise people couldn't get their bets in from tracks already active.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,097 posts)In fact you can be forced to do almost anything (unless it runs afoul of OSHA or what you pointed out), which is ridiculous, isnt it.
All the more reason for the moral of this story to be how every American should have the right to join a union if they so choose to do that and this would include every single non management position in America.
Offices, gas stations, fortune 500 companies, Wall Street, etc.
louis c
(8,652 posts)you can be fired by the employer without being given a reason.
But even if you are fired for "political speech", your employer is protected.
During Charlottesville, Nazis were outed through social media, and they were fired for just being there. Everyone of them was an employee at will.
However, an IBEW electrician from San Francisco was "outed" as a participant at that march, but the union protected his job.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Does this sort of thing occur with any great frequency in ordinary places of employment?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)It applies only to the government violating free speech protections.
I worked for 37 years for a unionized Federal government agency. There are limitations on what any employee can say at work.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)I was a union representative for over 30 years, and I would say that the majority of the people whom I represented had no idea of the limits on free speech in any workplace.
ecstatic
(32,567 posts)So that employer would also be violating freedom of religion laws. smh