WaPo: Russia paid for Facebook ads encouraging Bernie supporters not to vote last November

[Pugster]

The Bernie or Bust movement was (at least in part) fueled by Russian operatives in social media.
From today's Washington Post:

Watts said such efforts were most likely to have been effective in Midwestern swing states such as Wisconsin and Michigan, where Democratic primary rival Sen. Bernie Sanders had beaten Clinton. Watts said the disinformation pushed by the Russians included messages designed to reinforce the idea that Sanders had been mistreated by the Democratic Party and that his supporters shouldn’t bother to vote during the general election in November.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/russian-operatives-used-facebook-ads-to-exploit-divisions-over-black-political-activism-and-muslims/2017/09/25/4a011242-a21b-11e7-ade1-76d061d56efa_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_facebookads-519pm-winner%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.3ef862d75226

[Me.]

1. And There You Have It

+1

[Tom Rinaldo]

75. Have what? That the sun rises in the morning and sets at night?

What percentage of the total voting electorate do you believe are well informed on both the issues and the candidates? There were almost 130 million voters in the 2016 election. I would guess of those that perhaps 30 million could be considered highly informed voters. From what I know about how much good information the general public tends to absorb, I assume that there were more poorly informed voters than there were highly informed voters who participated.For the sake of discussion I'll guess 50 million of those.

Poorly informed voters come in every stripe, every age group, every race, every gender and with every ideological leaning. Some "don't trust men", some "don't trust women", some vote based on "gut feelings", some vote based on who "seems presidential" some on who "isn't part of the establishment" etc. etc. People are gullible when they are ill informed. There were millions of ill informed people who initially supported Trump, millions who supported Bernie, millions who supported Hillary etc.

Political parties, especially Republicans but not exclusively, try to manipulate ill informed voters by pushing their hot buttons. It goes on all the time. This time around the Russians took part in that too. That doesn't happen all the time, at least it didn't until now. So yeah Russia interfered in our election, and since they wanted to help Trump, they tried to disillusion voters who did not support Trump into staying home rather than voting against him. People who preferred Bernie to Hillary would of course be targeted. If the Russians had been active in our elections in 2008, and had they preferred McCain over Obama then, they would have been using the social media of that time to turn off disgruntled ill informed Clinton voters into staying home rather than voting for Obama. That was a subgroup of voters during the 2008 election that already existed with or without Russian interference.

During the primaries some of us were pointing out that Bernie was doing better with Independents than Hillary was. That included some pissed off people who didn't like the way things were going in their lives who blamed the establishment for every failing. Many of those viewed Hillary as the establishment. Not necessarily for her political views, but just because she has been a high profile political figure for decades. Of that group, some leaned toward Bernie for "change", others toward Trump for "change". I never considered the first group as real Bernie supporters, just votes that Bernie probably could win for Democrats in the general election that Hillary might have trouble with. She did as it turns out, and the Russians helped make sure that she did.

And you know what? I have no doubt that the Russians are still doing all that they can to destabilize our elections and Democratic system. One easy way for them to go about that is to now try to drive wedges into the Democratic coalition by inflaming tensions between those who are more drawn to Hillary than Bernie, or vice versa. I suggest that we all take no part in making that easier for them to accomplish.

[Me.]

80. Nice Try

[Blue_true]

132. I agree. Was going to say more, but. nt

[Eliot Rosewater]

105. Yep, I would say more but I dont DARE

[Me.]

109. Exactly

[applegrove]

2. So hard to guard against false flag trolls. Vibes to all the admins and moderators

of websites these days. Actually all the admins should get together across the internet and have a troll 'bad date' list.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

3. I'm in Wisconsin and voted for Sanders in the Primary (Clinton in the General)

I am active on Facebook and:
1. saw zero of that to the best of my recollection
2. realized, like every Sanders supporter I met, that not voting for Clinton in Wisconsin was idiocy
3. really would have liked to see Clinton actually come to this state in the General.

[bettyellen]

5. I saw a lot of it on the timelines of two friends- they're both prone to conspiracy theories,

Think of themselves as big "Anti-establishment" people and indulged in a lot of "both siderism". It was weird, they were both totally getting trolled and still don't get it.
They had basic facts wrong all the time.

[bettyellen]

21. I don't know you, but I did see the ads you're pretending didn't exist.

Do you think they're lying that Russia tried to turn Dems against Dems? We actually saw it happen here, for fucks sake.

[okieinpain]

32. +1

[byronius]

35. +2

[Hekate]

42. +3

[Achilleaze]

56. The russian-republican BETRAY AMERICA ads were poison

poison that helped lead to Comrade Casino, the republican's illegitimate Draft-Dodger-in-Chief, Serial Liar, and Money-grubbing pResidential Profiteer.

[musicblind]

58. +4

[yallerdawg]

73. +5

[Tarheel_Dem]

97. +5

[emulatorloo]

111. Well said. I refuse to be gaslighted and told "none of this ever happened"

[JCinNYC]

45. have you heard of the term Propaganda?

Do you know why it's still used?
Cause it still works
And no Berniebros dont have magic armor that shields them even tho they are just so awesome all the time and have the most awesomeest thoughts ever

[Eko]

6. Well, since you didnt see it

it must not have happened.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

64. Nowhere did I claim that

I fully realize n=1

[Agschmid]

7. She absolutely should have gone more often, that was a big tactical mistake.

[Ninsianna]

46. Hindsight is 20/20

[NanceGreggs]

51. Yes, it is.

Had Hillary won, "skipping Wisconsin" would have been lauded as tactical genius - along with everything else she did "wrong" that would have been been considered absolute perfection had she won.

[Ninsianna]

52. Had WI been hand counted, same result :-)

[mcar]

60. This!

The "Hillary should have gone to WI" meme is just silly. The vote was so close and recent reports point to Russian tampering of voter registrations.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

66. It was so close.

So you think her actually campaigning here couldn't have pushed her over? So campaigning has changed drastically in the past couple of years. Why do they make any appearances?

[delisen]

74. I is hard for people to accept they were

successfully propagandized by Putin.

[bettyellen]

83. I've yet to see one person who posted or retweeted RT or Guccifer admit regret.

[mcar]

77. She campaigned a lot here in FL

Also in PA and NC. Why would her going to WI have changed things? Seems like the Russian propaganda and cheating did the job (not to mention MSM, Comey and sexism). Just note how the MSM is reporting on Jared and Ivanka using a private email account for WH business and compare it to the 600 days of EMAILS!!11 hysteria we were subjected to.

I believe that sometime in the near future, the hacking of this election will come out. The American people will realize that they were robbed of their vote and the service of a woman who would have been a wonderful President. All this nit-picking about # of campaign appearances will seem silly.

[ehrnst]

90. Yes, that would totally have overcome this

https://www.thenation.com/article/wisconsins-voter-id-law-suppressed-200000-votes-trump-won-by-23000/

and it would have saved Rus Feingold's chances, and probably cured cancer.

Anything is possible in the imagination, isn't it?

[mcar]

130. Trump won" by less than 30,000 votes

Hundreds of thousands of voters suppressed, 31,000votes for Putin's favorite Green.

But Hillary didn't go to WI so that's the only thing.

[Ninsianna]

143. Considering what was going on in WI

no.

Since you don't seem to know, here are a few articles to bring you up to speed. Her visiting wouldn't have fixed the VRA thing, the voter suppression, the deliberate shennaigans with IDs that Walker was refusing to issue, the failure to count provisional ballots etc. etc. etc etc.

So the answer is that there has been a drastic change in the VRA in the past couple of years, when one chooses to ignore facts, or willfully deny them, one make silly absurdist fallacies and pretends they carry weight. They do not.

Here is your reading list, if you choose to ignore it, we'll know it's a deliberate choice to deny facts and attack Democrats, because why else would someone overlook what happened?

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/09/a-new-study-shows-just-how-many-americans-were-blocked-from-voting-in-wisconsin-last-year/

http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/09/26/study-wisconsin-voter-id-law-impacted-thousands/

https://www.thenation.com/article/wisconsins-voter-id-law-suppressed-200000-votes-trump-won-by-23000/

https://www.thenation.com/article/a-black-man-brought-3-forms-of-id-to-the-polls-in-wisconsin-he-still-couldnt-vote/

https://www.thenation.com/article/the-gops-attack-on-voting-rights-was-the-most-under-covered-story-of-2016/

https://www.brennancenter.org/new-voting-restrictions-america

https://www.thenation.com/article/wisconsin-is-systematically-failing-to-provide-the-photo-ids-required-to-vote-in-november/

https://www.thenation.com/article/this-99-year-old-man-rode-his-bike-to-the-polls-republicans-turned-him-away/


So yeah, I think her campaigning was not the problem, attacking Hillary seems to be a pass time for some, but when you ignore the reality of what was happening in Wisconsin to focus on personally faulting HRC, it's not hard to see what that tunnel vision is all about.

[LisaM]

151. They can't get rid of Scott Walker in Wisconsin, and Russ Feingold lost, too.

But if Hillary had showed up at the Brat Stop on November 7th, everything would have been perfect.

[Ninsianna]

122. It's amazing how many people mindlessly repeat that Republican talking point

it's like they're just pretending what Scott Walker and his corrupt administration did in that state with regard to voter ID.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/09/a-new-study-shows-just-how-many-americans-were-blocked-from-voting-in-wisconsin-last-year/

[lapucelle]

152. There are many people

looking for a way to absolve themselves for their part in what happened last November. So far, the only person I've seen taking any responsibility is HRC.

Journalists, third party voters, and the lazy no shows have all seized on the "she didn't go to WI" meme in an effort to exonerate themselves. (Back in December, it was the "flawed candidate' talking point.)

I don't buy it, and I don't think future historians will either.

[Agschmid]

54. Sure, but its not 100% hindsight.

People involved in the campaign on the ground were saying this for a few weeks, seems it didn’t matter.

[Ninsianna]

124. Yeah, actually it is 100% hindisight.

That's when you look back at something. People involved in the campaign were saying all sorts of things, and on the ground, but people involved in the campaign and on the ground in many areas were saying different things.

Also this was going on, and people on the ground and all over the internet were trying to draw attention to this, but we were shouted down and silence, and swarmed and lectured to by "purists" pasting things they were fed by the right and RT and their agents online.

So, how about finally engaging in some hindsight and paying attention to what was actually going on in WI?

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/09/a-new-study-shows-just-how-many-americans-were-blocked-from-voting-in-wisconsin-last-year/

Count the damned votes and learn why the data they based their decisions were on was not bad.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

65. It's not hindsight when people were telling you DURING the campaign

Bill, you know--the guy who won a couple elections, told her she needed to go. Feingold told her things were falling apart. That's not hindsight. That's bad decision making in the face of good advice from good people.

[Ninsianna]

123. Know what people were also telling you during the campaign?

That you had a solid lead in the polls. So again, hindsight.

Also, know what else was going on in Wisconsin that people were talking about DURING the campaign, and afterwards? The whole voter ID situation.

Yeah, it's pretty piss poor decision making to ignore the actual things that were going on that people in Wisconsin were telling everyone, just to make truly silly attacks on Hillary Clinton.

It's pretty poor judgement to ignore all of that during the campaign and to continue doing so now to keep beating up a woman who was dealing with the data at the time and ALL of the OTHER people besides these two men who also had valid arguments to make, and good advice from good people that outweighed these two men.

So hindsight.

Also, in hindsight, all of this was going on, but you know, emails and Comey and and how harsh and grating her voice was, and emails and loads of lies from the "left" and the right and emails.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/09/a-new-study-shows-just-how-many-americans-were-blocked-from-voting-in-wisconsin-last-year/

Care to pay attention now to what so many good people were saying at the time about WI while people were busy lying their rears off about her health situation, her pneumonia, her rather packed schedule etc. etc. etc. etc.

[ehrnst]

144. OMG you mean that a visit from HRC would have saved Feingold, too!

Maybe cured cancer?

Anything's possible in fanfiction.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

145. It certainly couldn't have hurt Clinton

Or are we now pretending that campaign visits do nothing to help the candidate? Because why do they visit anywhere?

[ehrnst]

146. Find another sale on strawmen?

[Cuthbert Allgood]

147. Stop trying to point out fallacies--you might hurt yourself.

Based on what you wrote, it seems you think that campaigning in a state does nothing to help that person get votes in that state. That is evidenced by your statement that it wouldn't have helped and hyperbole of "It would have saved Feingold" (which I never claimed, just that he knew he was in trouble--i.e. you are the one creating strawmen).

So, if campaigning in a state the size of Wisconsin would not have done anything toward getting a candidate the 20,000 votes needed to win the state (which, by the way, is 0.35% of the population), then what good does campaigning ever do and why do they do it? 0.35%. That's all she needed. And you aren't willing to say that her ACTUALLY coming to the state a couple times might not have helped her in that?

And again on Feingold. When he said that things were looking shitty here, I knew there would be trouble. He knows this state. He's won in the is state multiple times. Wisconsin was salvageable, contrary to what you are trying to imply.

[frazzled]

88. See, that's still pushing a misconception

and a well-devised excuse for why she lost by less than 1% there. Facts are facts, and the facts are in the demographic shifts: the number of non-college-educated white voters.

There are several major problems with the idea that Clinton’s Electoral College tactics cost her the election. For one thing, winning Wisconsin and Michigan — states that Clinton is rightly accused of ignoring — would not have sufficed to win her the Electoral College. She’d also have needed Pennsylvania, Florida or another state where she campaigned extensively. ...

But most importantly, the changes in the vote from 2012 to 2016 are much better explained by demographics than by where the campaigns spent their time and money. Let me start with a couple of simple comparisons that I think pretty convincingly demonstrate this, and then we’ll attempt a more rigorous approach.

Comparison No. 1: Clinton spent literally no time in Wisconsin, whereas Trump repeatedly campaigned in the state. Wisconsin turned red. But so did Pennsylvania, where both candidates campaigned extensively. Trump’s margin of victory in each state was almost identical, in fact — 0.8 percentage points in Wisconsin and 0.7 percentage points in Pennsylvania. That strongly implies that the demographic commonalities between Wisconsin and Pennsylvania — both of them have lots of white voters without college degrees — mattered a lot more than the difference in campaign tactics.

Comparison No. 2: As I mentioned, Trump campaigned a lot more than Clinton in Wisconsin, and it turned red. But Trump also campaigned a lot more than Clinton in Colorado — it actually had the largest gap of any state in where the candidates spent their time. Colorado remained blue, however, with Clinton winning it by about the same margin that Obama won it by in 2012. The difference is that Colorado has relatively few white voters without college degrees, while Wisconsin has lots of them. Again, that strongly implies that demographics rather than campaign tactics drove the shift in the results.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/clintons-ground-game-didnt-cost-her-the-election/

Silver sums it up with hard analysis and charts (at link):

Another, more rigorous way to address the question is by regression analysis. Accounting for where the candidates spent their resources makes almost no difference, it turns out, once you’ve controlled for one or two major demographic categories and the 2012 vote.

[Blue_true]

133. Like I have said and will say till I am blue in the face.

Hillary had to outwork Trump by 50% to be sure of victory. She had real policy proposals, he had bullshit. But he was on the campaign trail every day doing 2-4 stops and Hillary was doing 2-3 events a week and fundraisers. I think Hillary sort of demoralized her base some, I love her as a politician, voted for her v Obama and Sanders, but her not campaigning more and going to many small places made me uneasy.

[Pugster]

8. Let's count the number of fallacies in your post

By saying that you recall "zero" of those ads, you remind me of those who say, "I have never been polled, therefore polls are made-up".
By saying that you were not swayed, you imply that nobody else was.
You accuse the researchers who uncovered the Russian Facebook infiltration of making up the Sanders bit.

Remember, you are not the only person on Facebook. And neither do you know whether your zip code was targetted.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

68. Those would be fallacies if I made that claim.

My experience stands as my experience. I very clearly said it was my experience and did not claim to represent everyone.

[greyl]

10. Your Internet browser history may have been missing key cookies, or

you didn't have a dirty enough circle of FB friends.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

84. My FB friends will be happy to hear that

[Tobin S.]

11. I don't think there's any need to get defensive here, Cuthbert.

I also voted for Bernie in the primary and Hillary in the general. I'm more interested at this point in getting to the truth of the matter regarding all of this Russian interference in the election.

I'm sure there will be some finger pointing and fighting in this thread. Just let it go by. Everyone interested in the truth, no matter your political views, should be coming together right now in the name of humanity.

[brush]

34. And to get to the bottom of it so it doesn't happen again. Head-in-the-sand denial is foolish.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

110. I want that, too; I really do.

But the tone here which is frustrating that seems to be made by some (and a pretty "loud" some) that if you supported Sanders
1. you did it because you were tricked by the Russians; and/or
2. you caused Clinton to lose.

A lot of threads and responses don't seem to be "gee, let's figure out what happened" but instead are "fuck anyone who supported Sanders." That latter attitude doesn't do much for unity. I would agree that my push back may not help, either, but I'm not just going to let people push the metric that it was because of Sanders that Clinton lost. That's just nonsense.

[standingtall]

12. We know that this kind of thing happened rather you

noticed or not. They had partial recounts in Wisconsin and Michigan and discovered plenty of Bernie write-in ballots. There were probably enough write-ins in Michigan alone to flip the state.

[bettyellen]

30. I remember seeing so many reposts about writing in on ballots and there were only something

Like seven states that wouldn't throw out your whole ballot. Whenever I posted links to the rules about it, it got deleted and I was attacked. People wanted to spoil votes.

[Ninsianna]

47. I volunteered in MI during the recount, and there were enough to be pissing off

the Stein and HRC observers, and make the Trumpers gleeful. Not only Bernie write ins, but people who left the entire rest of the ballot blank. Or people who voted Stein and left everything else blank.

[emulatorloo]

115. Thanks for the eyewitness report, really appreciate it.

[Ninsianna]

129. To be fair, I only witenessed the couple of precincts my table counted.

My mom was at another. I did peep over a few shoulders when I was circulating around gathering data and making sure other volunteers were doing okay. Well, before they threw out anyone who wasn't a lawyer.

Thankfully one of the organizers was one, and naturally ALL of the Trump team's lawyers dominating that room. But I interacted with all the people storming out of that room. They were pissed.

Many HRC supporters chose to volunteer with the Greens because they were empowered to do more to challenge the ballots. The HRC people asked us to just observe and make sure there was no funny business.

Many were people who I had worked with during the GE, and they all stopped by to make sure we got the data for our counts too

The greens were very nice to us, but those Trumpers were absolute jerks. Never got so many dirty looks from people in my life!

[Jakes Progress]

14. So how many times

was Sanders in the state campaigning for Clinton?

[Autumn]

63. Twice that I know of. nt

[Jakes Progress]

71. Hmm. Love to hear the text of those speeches.

Bernie, like comey, the msnbc crowd, the president, and the whole world thought there wasn't really a need to campaign hard for Hillary. I mean, who would think this country would put that ass in the white house.

I think a lot of people are a little embarrassed by how lightly they took the ass and did not push harder.

[Autumn]

72. You can probably find them. Russ Feingold joined Bernie at the one in Madison.nt

[Jakes Progress]

101. I'll keep looking.

I just gave it about a half hour's effort. If you can find the transcripts somewhere, I would love to see the links. You can PM me with them if you see them. If you are there in WI, you would have a better chance than I, but I will give it another go later. Thanks for any help you can offer.

[Autumn]

104. I don't know where the transcripts are but here are links to a couple that Bernie did for her

http://fox6now.com/2016/10/05/bernie-sanders-holds-campaign-rallies-for-hillary-clinton-in-madison-green-bay/

http://fox6now.com/2016/10/31/bernie-sanders-to-campaign-for-hillary-clinton-russ-feingold-in-milwaukee/

[Jakes Progress]

107. Thanks for those. But ouch.

Fox seems to say that Bernie is doing his best, but then their poll shows over 30% of Bernie supporters plan to vote in ways that will put trump in white house. If she lost by only a few points, that would be the difference. All the posts here on DU about how the Bernie people really turned out for Hillary are not supported by this poll.

Of course it was Fox. But 32%! That would be over 15% of the Democratic vote. One could wish that Bernie were a better persuader if that poll held true.

I will keep looking for the transcripts and will let you know if I find them. I guess though, that if you were in WI, you heard the rally with Feingold.

[Autumn]

108. Fox is always full of shit because Fox news pulls those numbers out of their ass.

[lapucelle]

154. The numbers are from a poll conducted by Marquette Law School.

[bettyellen]

85. He has a difficult time saying just her name. I think the propaganda worked on him too....

All that crap about we will see what happens with the FBI investigation. I think it for his narrative and it wanted to believe it.

[RandomAccess]

94. That's not true at all

Bernie, like comey, the msnbc crowd, the president, and the whole world thought there wasn't really a need to campaign hard for Hillary.

My observation of Bernie was that he was scared witless Trump might win.

But hey, even in the face of pro-Bernie FACTS (e.g., he went twice to WI), it's still important to find fault with him -- speculate that his speeches were limp, imply that his heart wasn't in it because he thought Hillary would win.

I think a lot of people are a little embarrassed by how lightly they took the ass and did not push harder.

I can't think of ANYONE -- elected or rank and file voter -- who feels that way other than those who refused to vote for Hillary, and a good big bunch of them weren't Democrats to start with.

What kinds of Sanders voters supported Trump?

Perhaps the most important feature of Sanders-Trump voters is this: They weren’t really Democrats to begin with.

Of course, we know that many Sanders voters did not readily identify with the Democratic Party as of 2016, and Schaffner found that Sanders-Trump voters were even less likely to identify as Democrats. Sanders-Trump voters didn’t much approve of Obama either.

In fact, this was true well before 2016. In the VOTER Survey, we know how Sanders-Trump voters voted in 2012, based on an earlier interview in November 2012. Only 35 percent of them reported voting for Obama, compared with 95 percent of Sanders-Clinton voters. In other words, Sanders-Trump voters were predisposed to support Republicans in presidential general elections well before Trump’s candidacy.

Schaffner found that what distinguished Sanders-Trump voters from Sanders-Clinton voters wasn’t their attitudes about trade, but their attitudes about race. When asked whether whites are advantaged, Sanders-Trump voters were much more likely to disagree than were Sanders-Clinton voters.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/08/24/did-enough-bernie-sanders-supporters-vote-for-trump-to-cost-clinton-the-election/

[Jakes Progress]

100. You voted for Hillary. Good on you.

And you were careful not to complain about her at work or the pub where those idiots we call undecided voters were hanging out. But I heard people who voted for Hillary, who actually campaigned for her bemoan her "email situation" and "worry" about the Clinton Foundation. They bought the lies - not the whole lie, but enough to actually question the character of one of the most honest and people-dedicated politicians who ever drew breath. And the idiots listened. I heard more than one say that they didn't know about trump but that they knew of lifelong Democrats who questioned Hillary.

The russian social media blitz and the right wing attack and the media ratings gambit actually reached decent Democrats who let the "general common knowledge" lie affect their speech. Sure, they voted for Hillary. But they were the ones who loved to stand at the bar or in the break room and talk about having to "hold their nose" to vote".

[RandomAccess]

116. All of which has nothing to do with Bernie

which is what I was addressing.

[Jakes Progress]

119. Well, you can't read people's minds.

But one could surmise that more from Bernie in WI might have helped if, as posted above, WI Democrats preferred him over Hillary. If he were "scared witless", perhaps more than two visits would have helped. Someone here cited a poll that said over 30% of the WI Bernie supporters said they were not going to vote for Hillary. If those polls are true, her going would only have inflamed Bernie's supporters more. Others in the thread cite his popularity in WI. Everything is hindsight, but I listened to a couple of his speeches and they seemed tame. I wish she had Elizabeth Warren there; she gave firecracker speeches. Actually, I wish she had picked Elizabeth for her VP. I liked Tim, but I don't think he really added anything to her ticket.

All in all, I see about a dozen things that did this to us. It was the perfect shit storm. She could have weathered 9 or 10 of them, but the culmination did us in.

(Please. I hope you're not one of those who sees a Bernie slight in every comment. I started the primaries backing him. I like his ideas, but came to believe that he hasn't the slightest idea of how to make any of them happen. Good man. Just not this job. I still support his ideas.)

[RandomAccess]

120. Yeah, like I said

No matter what the facts are, you've got to find ways to bash Bernie and make it his fault.

Un-effing-believable.

[Jakes Progress]

148. Oh. So you are one of those.

Facts don't seem to matter to you.

No matter what the facts are, you've got to find a ways to turn almost any comment into a bash Bernie post.

That is non unbelievable. But, it is pathetic.

[RandomAccess]

149. Facts DON'T matter when they're non sequitur and off-topic

You can't seem to follow a train of thought, and then want to blame me when called on it.

Funny.

[Jakes Progress]

153. Could be funny.

If your train of thought wasn't one way.

I try to initiate a conversation, and find I have tripped over year-old, smoldering resentment. Move on.

[RandomAccess]

155. LOL -- And then whadja dream?

No smoldering resentments HERE and you've seen no evidence or even hint of same. Yes,I think I will move on. Lost causes aren't my thing.

[Jakes Progress]

156. Conversation eludes you.

Lots of shortcuts and misdirection. Lots of avoidance.

You leave giant footprints and say there is no evidence.

If you aren't smoldering, why wouldn't you discuss the problems with interference in the election? I understand that the conclusions of such a discussion might cross up the one way track you ride on.

Moving on would be best since you don't like lost causes, and your eternal avoidance of reality is a lost one. In a year of two, you can do it all over again. You have to learn history in order to avoid repeating it.

[LiberalFighter]

33. I'm assuming they had algorithims based on a persons association

with other people and type of posts they liked, etc. They would then be able to target those people.

[bettyellen]

38. I had seen quite a few and then started clicking on "see less" like this. I just didn't want to

Spread the bullshit like a few people I knew were. People were saying crazy shit. I remember seeing that Hillary was sick and had to be wheelchaired right up to the debate podium! This, despite seeing her walk to it the night before. Weird.

[LiberalFighter]

44. I've done that too.

[bettyellen]

81. I explained to friends that those RT and Guccifer things were repackaged RW crap....

But they wanted to hate her.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

43. I will say the same thing.

A VERY strong Bernie supporter here, very disappointed he didn't get the nomination. But I voted for Hillary and saw NOTHING on FB encouraging me not to vote. And if I had, I'd have blown it off.

I don't want to minimize my support for Bernie, but I also don't want to minimize my vote for Hillary. I have a feeling I'm simply one of millions in these two regards.

[obamanut2012]

82. you just weren't looking, then

It was allll over, including on here.

[JHan]

93. I wish my FB Life were that cloistered last year...

In my experience..

BoBers were everywhere, you saw them commenting on Robert Reich's page, All the usual lefty-ish pages from HuffPo to Salon, to even NYTimes.

There's a reason Hillary Support Groups were often private or even secret.

And this discontent existed way before the whole "she didn't visit Wisconsin" meme became a thing.

But I think you know this because there's been enough articles written about this, and open hearings, for anyone to claim otherwise.

[elias7]

9. Instead of trolling, why not say something constructive?

Or do you not see how antagonistic your statement is?

[nycbos]

15. I belive my sense of humor was on point.

If the left didn't whine and sit on there ass we would have Donald Trump. I have worked on campaigns in five states. I have tasted victories and defeats.

I am a young white man who went to the University of Vermont who supported Hillary Clinton. I know exactly what I am talking about when I use the term Bernie Bro.

[m-lekktor]

18. yeah, you're not biased. nt

[Ninsianna]

48. Pot, meet Kettle.

[m-lekktor]

19. what would you like us to respond to?

Admit we didnt vote for her because of ADS we saw on facebook? That it's the berniebros fault that russia placed ADS on facebook? I dont get your point.

And I haven't seen ADS on facebook in years, there are APPS that hide ads such as FB Purity.

I voted for her, btw.

[eggplant]

36. If you have apps that block all facebook ads, then you should disqualify yourself from this convo.

Since the discussion is about the content of specific ads and who they were targeted at, you have zero basis to form an opinion about this. You aren't the subject of the discussion.

[MrsCoffee]

70. You just disqualified yourself from the conversation.

Thoroughly. And you have the gall to call others biased?

[emulatorloo]

117. I still don't understand why you seem get so defensive in threads about Busters?

Like every Sanders supporter here, you voted Clinton in the general. That describes you, me and every Sanders primary supporter I know on this site.

Yet every time some discussion comes up about the Busters and what might have influenced them, you act like you are being singled out for something? Or that Bernie or Busters need defending some how?

You aren't a Bernie or Buster. Nor am I. This discussion isn't about you or me or other DU'ers.

I personally am glad to know more about how Russia worked w Facebook.

[CentralMass]

13. While only one is from the midwest I can count 5 family members and 4 friends who voted for Bernie

in the primary and they did not hesitate voting for Hillary when Bernie dropped out.

[Pugster]

16. Irrelevant

Nobody has claimed that zero Bernie supporters voted for Clinton. it is inexplicable why you have to certify that 9 people you know were not influenced by the Russian ads.

[Tobin S.]

22. Actually, it is explicable.

There is division and bitterness right now in the Democratic party. People are still very sensitive about possibly being criticized, even though it's been almost a year now. There is a lot of finger pointing going on. I can understand feeling defensive at this point.

I'm interested in getting to the truth of the matter regarding all this Russia stuff no matter where it leads. I think that's the position that every American should take right now. We should be feeling compassion for each other right now and coming together.

[lovemydogs]

25. Same in my family

My brothers and sisters, my daughter and I were all Bernie supporters. All voted Clinton.

[musicblind]

61. And three of my friends who voted for Bernie in the primaries opted not to vote for Hillary.

Out of the four of us, I was the lone friend who voted for Bernie in the primaries and Hillary in the General. I tried hard to convince my friends to please vote for Hillary, but I was not able to convince them not to vote for Stein (in two cases) and Johnson (the third case).

They kept insisting that Sanders was "robbed" by the DNC. They watched The Young Turks, or at least two of them did, and they felt very passionately about the whole issue. One of them stopped watching John Oliver because of his segment on Jill Stein... and still won't watch him to this day.

Another one of them, the one who went on to vote for Johnson, tagged me in over 70 anti-Hillary ads and memes on facebook. I ended up having to block him. That ended a friendship. I am still friends with the other two and hope to be friends with them for years to come. I hope they will vote Democratic in future elections, though you cannot force anyone to vote a particular way.

But to say this stuff didn't happen because that isn't your personal experience, that doesn't mean it's true.

I live in North Carolina. We were a swing state and I saw this stuff plenty. It made me frustrated and sad. As someone who voted for Sanders, I was already sad that he lost the primary and seeing false information didn't make that easier. One of the biggest things that solidified me back around Clinton was her book Stronger Together which laid out a detailed plan for our country and revisiting passages from her book Living History. But not everyone has that kind of interest or time. A lot of people just see some random meme on Facebook and go, "Whelp, looks right to me."

Confirmation bias is a powerful thing.

[4now]

20. The Russians were trying to destroy Clinton

Why would they not support people who were also trying to destroy her?

[Tobin S.]

26. The Russians are trying to destroy America...right now.

During the election, they simply supported the candidate who knew would cause America great damage and that of course was Donald Trump. Everything that they did during the campaign and the election was aimed at putting Trump in the White House.

That propaganda war and psyops campaign Russia has been engaging in has been here since the earliest days of the Cold War and is still ongoing. We really need to focus on that and how to fix it.

[KPN]

39. Well, don't count on the GOP for help

with that. So it's left to all the rest of us, no?

Casting blame seems idiotic and self defeating in that light. Get with the program folks.

[Tobin S.]

41. "Casting blame seems idiotic and self defeating in that light. Get with the program folks."

Yes, that's the point, only I'm trying to be a little more diplomatic than that.

One of the most effective tools we have right now in raising awareness on this issue and effectively dealing with the problem is the Democratic party. We should be trying to bring liberals together and not create more dissension among ourselves. Infighting right now is not helpful at all.

[PubliusEnigma]

23. They found fertile ground among the disenchanted.

[lovemydogs]

24. I supported Bernie but, I never read Facebook ads nor

do I do what ads, sites ect., tell me to. I make up my own mind and make my own decisions.

[Tobin S.]

28. There is no need to feel defensive.

Let's get down to the truth of the matter with this Russia shit. Stay open to the possibilities and implications.

If campaign ads were not effective, then politicians would not spend hundreds of millions of dollars on them. They do influence a great many people, and most people are affected by advertising to some degree or another.

[fallout87]

27. There were plenty of people

who were bernie or bust regardless of Facebook ads.

[Tobin S.]

29. Yep, but I'm sure the Facebook ads didn't help matters any.

[Ninsianna]

49. FB was only one platform that was pushing that.

Remember all those twitter trolls, I recall one that was pretending to be mixed race woman, but turned out to be a right wing, half white Australian based in Singapore. It was the source of quite a few of those pasted talking points that so many people online believed and spread. I think there was an actual document they posted to one of those public drives with some nasty videos etc. put together for easy dissemination.

Its followers turned on a dime the day of the convention and immediately used those same anti-Hillary smears to push Stein.

People are upset about ads, but it wasn't just ads, it was a targeted, organized campaign that spanned many media platforms, from TV (RT for one), Twitter, FB, online discussion boards and forums, Youtube. I have ads blocked in most places and what I saw were the faugressive sites, like "common dreams", The Intercept, USuncut, sites with "truth" in the title and none in the content etc., Zerohedge, Salon and other sites where questionable, biased and outright dishonest articles were posted and bandied around. There was a time when people were retweeting and sharing HA HA Goodman as if that poor unhinged right winger wasn't a total joke.

I had thought that Bernie or Bust was an Observer creation, since it was being pushed by kushner's paper, via Michael Sainato, who seems to be their HA HA, and who is still spreading verifiable false lies and propaganda.

That's how that ratfucking (not being rude, referring to the term for political dirty tricks) worked and people are embarrassed about it. It worked on top of 25 years of attacks that many people didn't understand but had been tainted by, and then these attacks seemingly from the left really messed up some people.

It really wasn't just an ad thing, it was a comprehensive assault from all sides.

[dlk]

31. Well, well, well...

[Hell Hath No Fury]

37. I don't know a single Bernie voter --

who didn't make it to the polls here in SF, nor any Sanders voter I know on FB from around the country.

[Ninsianna]

50. I've run into several who proudly announced they were staying home.

Others who touted their purity by voting for Jill Stein and making some misogynistic comments about why.

I also saw the ballots in MI. Those who "made it to the polls" didn't necessarily do their duty.

[Agschmid]

55. I know a few who didnt, but I know some ardent Sanders supporters.

I’m related to one who went to Jill over Hill...

[Hekate]

40. As Hillary said in her interview with Chris Hayes, Propaganda works. She is not blaming...

...voters for being taken in. Her concern is for the future of our democracy.

It was a great interview, btw.

[Ezior]

53. Wonder what Komrade Kyle (Secular Talk) etc have to say about this

I can't stand his face anymore, so I'm not checking. Probably something like "Fake News! This is just a hoax invented by the establishment democrats to bad-mouth my green hero and Sanders!" Or he simply refuses to talk about it.

Or maybe he says "Thanks Pootie, the check has cleared!".

[beachbum bob]

57. we saw that line here in DU daily in the lead up to the election

so its no surprise to most of us...

[mcar]

59. I hope people have learned something from this debacle

[FSogol]

62. Sadly, I don't think they have.

[Blue_true]

136. Same here. They have learned NOTHING and will learn NOTHING.

Putin can come visit Trump in the Oval Office and take a crap on the carpet while bragging about stealing our Presidency on national tv and in 2018 and 2020, it will be like nothing happened.

[Blue_true]

135. You think?

We got hurt in 2000 by the same people, the country almost got destroyed over 8 years. Obama gets it right again like Clinton did and the same far left assholes come out with their purity bs.

I don't think the people that are proned to blowing us fucking up have learned a damned thing. You only have to listen to the likes of Nina Turner to see that.

[mcar]

141. I said I hoped

I don't think. Some things don't change.

[Gothmog]

67. On JPR there is a ton of pro Russian material

jPR was full of Russain generated articles designed to dncourage sanders voter to support snd dlect trump. Many JPR posters are stupid snd fell for this material

[George II]

86. It was just reported on CNN that the Russians placed thousands of ads on Facebook....

....targeting blacks and Muslims.

[NurseJackie]

87. I remember seeing something where that site was flagged as a "Fake News" outlet AND/OR...

... had been listed by some organization (I can't remember which) as a "hate site" or something like that.

Many JPR posters are stupid snd fell for this material

I wonder if the site owners are aware. Do they not care, or are they in cahoots?

[SunSeeker]

96. Yes, I remember that too. I won't even go to that site.

Don't want to give it the clicks, nor do I want to get some kind of Russian computer virus.

[ehrnst]

98. You need Silkwood shower and a course of antibiotics afterwards. (nT)

[ehrnst]

89. Well if the posts there from RT, Cenk Uygur and the Intercept are any indication

You may be right.

[Gothmog]

95. Yep

[workinclasszero]

69. America is under attack from Putin's troll army

So far they have installed the worst piss poor excuse of a pResident in the 200 plus year history of this country who continues to daily tear this country apart with his racist hate and hostile militant stupidity.

These attacks are ongoing and we do nothing as a foreign hostile government slowly destroys us.

Maybe it's too late already? Trump will get us into a nuclear war with NK any day now and to the brink of WW3 or beyond.

Millions will die. Trump and the evil right wing want blood, violence, racial strife and death.

Their fuhrer will deliver.

[Blue_Tires]

76. This is the part where I give a glance in the direction

of leftbro hot take merchants like Michael Tracey and H.A. Goodman, who told their fringe followers to stay home last November.

[emulatorloo]

118. Yup n/t

[ecstatic]

78. They also wanted to control the narrative to explain crazy election results

Results which may have been due to hacking the voter rolls.

Meanwhile, we were told that Hillary lost because this or that group didn't vote.

[ehrnst]

91. Are you in the right thread?

[JHan]

92. ??????

[bettyellen]

99. No one said that. He had to have benefitted from it to some extent, and it hurt him as well

Among people who saw it for the divisive bullshit it was.

[Jakes Progress]

102. Take your fist out of the air.

Settle down. And read the thread.

No one said that Bernie was to blame. Stop stirring.

[CrispyQ]

103. How many were long time democrats & how many were new to the political process?

I don't know any long time dems who didn't get out & vote for HRC.

[Eliot Rosewater]

106. Most people under 30 who I have talked to who lean left were adamantly against Hillary

They didnt really know why, they repeated talking points that were bullshit and nonsense, but I was amazed at how many there were and how uninformed they were.

They all had ONE thing in common besides who they did NOT support and that was who they DID support.

[leftstreet]

112. Do you think they'd support him as a candidate in 2020? n/t

[Blue_true]

137. Will be interesting to see.

I was talking to my brother today about a local race. An underfunded Dem with a compelling message came less than 900 vote of victory. Our side turned out poorly.

People on our side need to become more strategic. You see repubs call those they don't like rinos, but if the rino wins the primary, all republicans fall in line for the General. Our people that lose the primary try to blow up our General candidate.

[arthritisR_US]

113. Well Nina Turner was an echo chamber of those

very same ads.

[Tarheel_Dem]

121. +1. I detest Nina as much as Susan Sarandon. n/t

[arthritisR_US]

126. They both bring bile to my mouth at the mere mention

of them! Nina blocked me on Twitter when I told her to stop with her DNC conspiracy BS. She told me to wake up, that it was all over FB and then she blocked me. I saw her on Jake Tappers show today and it was a very demurred performance.

[Tarheel_Dem]

127. The only reason Nina gets invited on these shows is that she and Donald Trump have several....

things in common, and they both LLLLLLOOOOOOVVVVVVEEEEE attention.

[arthritisR_US]

128. Nailed it!

[Blue_true]

139. I can't stand to look at her. nt

[arthritisR_US]

140. She was always so bombastic and confrontational but

today she was quiet in her demeanour, subdued. I really hope reality has bitten her in the ass.

[Blue_true]

138. That makes two of us. nt

[Bad Thoughts]

125. Apparently it wasn't effective

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/08/24/did-enough-bernie-sanders-supporters-vote-for-trump-to-cost-clinton-the-election/?utm_term=.1b4e848db5bc

[Nevernose]

131. I still place the main blame on Clinton voters

Not Clinton voters like us -- people who actually bothered to vote -- but all the people who said, "Oh, she's got a 99% chance of winning. I'll go ____ instead."

There were a thousand cuts, but I honestly believe that was the deepest one.

[JonLP24]

134. I still voted for Hillary Clinton

[Tarheel_Dem]

142. Didn't Assange and Greenwald suggest protest voting as well? n/t

[Weekend Warrior]

150. Shocking.