i'm sorry, but i will say it again- we should be evacuating as many people

[mopinko]

from puerto rico as want to go.
the costs, not the price, but the cost, of taking care of vulnerable people vs the costs of resettling them temporarily elsewhere in their own fucking county, is minuscule, imho.

we should have transport down there, whether planes or ships, and get anyone out that wants to get out.
many wont want to go. hell, most wont want to go.
but many can plainly see that they have lost everything they have. they have to start over from scratch.
why not let them do it in a safe damn place if that is what they want?

it shouldnt be an option only for those w money.

[MontanaMama]

1. Don't be sorry for saying it again.

This is what we should be offering. And, we would be doing that, under a real president.

[WinkyDink]

2. Big ideas come with annoying details. For example, fly them WHERE? Florida?!

"I don't know but there must be somewhere!" is NOT an adequate reply.

[mopinko]

5. i suspect that most who want to get out have family elsewhere in the us.

but the answer is- wherever the hell they want. they are americans, they can go anywhere in america.

[gilbert sullivan]

37. You want to provide door to door transportation for milliions of people over thousands of miles?

It appears you don't know much about logistics. That would be pretty much like the old mythological Noah's Ark bullshit.

[mopinko]

42. fine. that does not negate the need to do what we can, for who we can.

millions? no. 1 million? not out of the question.
door to door? last i heard you can get a plane, train, or bus most anywhere once you get past that ocean thing.

ohare airport moves 200,000 people a day.
the cta moves 1.6 million.

that's what i know about logistics. i live in a big city. we have events that draw a half million people pretty regularly. 1m is not a big number to me.

[DK504]

54. We used to be able to pull off the Berlin Air Drops and save people from dying.

We used to be able to build bridges and interstates and even put a man on the moon. We have failed on such an epic level we should not only be ashamed, but madder than hell.

[TexasBushwhacker]

3. I agree

My boss' elderly parents are there, staying with his brother's family. They have a generator, but getting fuel is difficult. I imagine the same thing that was happening in Houston is happening there. Instead of just getting gas when your tank is low, people are going to the station daily to top off their tanks. This means that already long lines are even longer.

[Weekend Warrior]

4. This. Yes.

Food, water, experts and supplies over. People who want to come back.

[localroger]

6. It's not possible

The population of Puerto Rico is 3.5 million. This is roughly twice the population of the entire New Orleans metropolitan area, and it is an island, so you can't drive away to safety.

For reference, at 150 passengers per airplane that is about 23,000 flights. Before Maria, CR's international airport was able to field about 180 flights a day. That means if you could repair the airport and then get the planes it would take three months to get everyone out by air.

The largest cruise ships can carry 4,000 passengers, maybe 8,000 if you stretch it for not-pleasure reasons. That is 4,300 cruises. There are maybe a dozen boats in that class in service in this part of the world, and the port infrastructure makes the airports look almost workable by comparison at this point.

What has to happen is we have to get the sick and injured out, yes, and also get the infrastructure back up so that we can rebuild for everyone else. Getting everyone out is not an option. The means to do that do not exist. We have to restore PR's ability to sustain its own population, and we have to do it before people start starving and dying of cholera in the streets. Bringing in supplies is a much better use of air and sea power than evacuation in terms of the good a single shipment can do in that regard.

[bluepen]

7. Informative post. Thanks.

[mopinko]

8. ffs. just like the post i put up before the storm hit- no, you cant evacuate 3.5M.

i quite clearly said- those that want to go. and probably more wont want to than will.
reading comprehension is your friend.

[Ninsianna]

13. Well, you can evacuate the hospitals and nursing homes. Got to start somewhere.

[mopinko]

9. and- for everyone who stays

you have the far, far, far larger logistical problem of how many shipments of food, water, medicine and whatall.
do you really think that is a bigger logistical problem than getting one person off the island?

no, i am not recommending 727's. i am saying large scale military transport.
how many people can you fit in a huey? on a navy transport ship?

[Lurks Often]

17. Sigh, you really have no clue to the difficulty of what you want

Military cargo planes are designed primarily for the transport of cargo, not people. A civilian passenger aircraft is far more efficient at carrying people then it it's comparable military counterpart.

Please provide a link to the navy transport ships you are referring to, because the US Navy doesn't have ships that can carry more people then a civilian passenger liner.

You have posted this on more then one occasion and people have repeatedly pointed out that what you want is not feasible or even possible.

[mopinko]

18. the navy transports the marines.

look, i have also said for the umpteenth time that i am not talking about evacuating the entire population. just doing our best to get out as many people as we can, IF they want to go.

and send in the civilian passenger liners. fine. i got dinged for that suggestion, too. any damn thing that floats or flies should be there saving lives.

i am truly baffled why this is such a controversial subject. i really am.

[FLPanhandle]

22. It's not controversial, its just a really poorly thought out knee-jerk idea.

Planes and ships are better used to haul in supplies and equipment to get Puerto Rico back up and running.

Evacuations would put an entirely new and more complex logistical layer on top of a problem that doesn't need more issues.

[Lurks Often]

27. So how many people do you think want to leave PR?

Is there a limit on how many we should transport?
What's the criteria of who gets to go first?
Where do we put them when they arrive in the US?

Oh and a US Navy LHA can carry about 1900 Marines and a LPD can carry 900 Marines. It would take roughly 200 hours for both to embark, carry and unload some 3000-4000 people from PR to Florida.

One of each is currently offshore and helping with relief efforts and are far more useful there then ferrying people back and forth.

What's baffling is your apparent refusal to do even the most basic of research before postulating wild ideas that are unrealistic.

[mopinko]

41. if they are bringing supplies in, presumably they are going back empty.

people wont be going "back and forth", they will only be going one way, the opposite way the aid is going. why cant they accomplish both?

you take the sickest, oldest, most vulnerable first. duh.
we dont have to put them anywhere. this is their country. they can go where they please. where did we "put" people from katrina? yes, there was some support for resettlement, and i dont know what percentage of people needed that.
but it has to be cheaper than supporting them in a complete humanitarian crisis.

people have families, ya know. friends. people who are dying to help them, in fact.

[Lurks Often]

46. As always you have no real plan

Just vague ideas based on "We have to do something" that don't take into consideration any understanding of logistics, details or facts.

[mopinko]

50. i have to have a plan? i'm just calling for all available resources to help

u.s. citizens living a nightmare. ok.

i'm watching the news right now and they are showing the airport packed w people, crying, on the brink of rage.
i dont care what resources we bring to bear- military, civilian, whatever.
there are people there who want to get out, who should get out, and there is no way out.

[Lurks Often]

51. See post #48 for ANOTHER explanation of why what you want isn't realistic

Also things are being done: From an article dated 9/23/17 "Aid begins to flow to hurricane-hit Puerto Rico" Link: http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/23/puerto-rico-aid-hurricane-flooding-243061

[MineralMan]

21. The C-40 is basically a Boeing 737.

The USAF has 14 of them and the Navy has 15. Depending on seat configuration, they can carry up to 115 passengers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_C-40_Clipper

Other passenger transport aircraft are also used by the military, as well, mostly in the business jet size.

The C-17 can also be configured as a troop transport or medical evac transport aircraft.

[Lurks Often]

34. So how many people do you think want to leave PR?

Is there a limit on how many we should transport?

What's the criteria of who gets to go first?

Where do we put them when they arrive in the US?

Even if all 29 C-40's are available (unlikely), all of them together can carry can carry a bit over 3300 people. Figure 6 hours to load, fly to Miami, unload, refuel and return to San Juan. That means even if they fly all 29 non-stop for one full day (not feasible), only 10,000 people can be evacuated.

[MineralMan]

38. I have no idea, of course, how many want to leave.

If it were my decision, evacuations would begin with sick people who need hospital care or who rely on electrically-powered medical devices.

Then, I'd move to potentially vulnerable people who were are high risk from the situation.

And so on...It's called triage.

Or, I suppose, no effort at all could be made and the entire problem could be ignored. Which do you think would be a better course of action?

[Lurks Often]

40. From an article dated 9/23/17 "Aid begins to flow to hurricane-hit Puerto Rico"

Link: http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/23/puerto-rico-aid-hurricane-flooding-243061

[mopinko]

43. from your link-

Across Puerto Rico, more than 15,000 people are in shelters, including some 2,000 rescued from the north coastal town of Toa Baja. Many Puerto Ricans planned to head to the mainland to temporarily escape the devastation.

so start by getting people out of hospitals. then out of shelters. then whoever wants to go.
send the cruise ships. there ought to be pretty many of them idle.

again, how does the trouble of getting 1 person a flight out compare to supporting that person w food, water, medicine and safety for months?
times how many?

it is the people who think that people can and want to stay in this place who are being unrealistic.

[Lurks Often]

47. Get back to me when you can supply a plan that addresses all the issues

that a number of posters have mentioned in this thread and that you choose to ignore because you have no real answers.

[mopinko]

36. so all available c-17s should be there.

troops in, patients out.
supplies in, evacuees out.

[gilbert sullivan]

39. Im sorry but that idea is simply batshit nuts.

...

[snooper2]

23. A navy ship can probably pull 40 or 50 barges, how many people per a barge?

Would work fine right as long as the Ocean wasn't too choppy

[Orrex]

24. Maybe we would deploy a fleet of blimps

They have that whole big balloon on top, just taking up space. Fill it full of people, and we could have Puerto Rico evacuated before morning.

Logistically, my suggestion isn't much less realistic that what's been suggested.

[Locrian]

16. thanks you saved from pulling out my calculator...

This is the reality of what is / will happen with climate change.

The numbers are hard to comprehend for a lot of people - hence the tendency to delay any action, until it's to late.
At that point - the math of logistics wins. It always wins...

[FLPanhandle]

19. +1

Logic doesn't always work on these emergency response "experts" who probably have never been through a major hurricane and it's aftermath. Thanks for the facts though.

[LanternWaste]

25. No more and no less than their "expert" critics.

"Logic doesn't always work on these emergency response "experts""

No more and no less than their "expert" critics.

[FLPanhandle]

29. Post one good example

I'll be waiting....

[mopinko]

44. katrina

[FLPanhandle]

45. That's a storm name

That's not an example of a post where critics of wild ass ideas were not accepting of factual and logical data.

You still can't comprehend that your idea isn't feasible despite facts showing otherwise. You are a good example of my post. Logic doesn't work on knee-jerk "experts".

The best way to help PR is focusing resources on getting supplies and materials to the island to get it up and running. Evacuations are another huge level of complexity this situation doesn't need.

[pangaia]

53. Just for discussion -

And being a frequent international traveler but no expert other than I used to have a PPL, and I know how to get around a lot of the airlines 'roadblocks,' cancelled flights, etc..when FLIGHTAWARE tells me to change flights RIGHT NOW before the gate attendents and everybody else realized the scheduled flight ain't gonna make it..... which airports to avoid when, (LHR always if possible !!!). when NOT to arrive at EWR terminal A from AMS when I have a connecting flight from terminal C in less than 90 minutes EVEN with my GLOBAL ENTRY card (although I once did make it in about 35 minutes, now known as The Miracle in Newark !!!!!!)..., stuff like that... :&gt

1- given the two runways at Luis Munoz Marin airport, they could easily handle more flights than 180/day, and do frequently get flights in and out at a much faster rate than that.... In 20 hours of operation, that is only 9/hour.. say 4 arrivals and 5 departures -- one in each direction every 12-15 minutes.. Many international airports can zip them in and out 1/minute in each direction, even with only 2 runways.. Now SJU isn't up to that, of course. But I would certainly think one each way every 3 minutes would be certainly doable given the RUNWAY situation.

2- The problem there, the damage to the airport aside for now, is the the terribly inefficient terminal..lines everywhere.. women can't get in the restrooms, check-in lines are long. It's hot even when the AC IS working...Security lines can be. loooooooooong....

3- There are about 32-33 gates. BUT, a lot of flights even now board and deplane at stands on the tarmac.. so add at least another 10....

4- Other air traffic in the area is a non-issue.

5- There are also 4 other airports at least in PR that can handle international flights ..two of which have 11,000' foot runways, a third with 8,000' runway and the fourth with a 5500' runway. So the three bigger airports can handle 747's.

So I would think the real problem now is the infrastructure at the airport and getting to and from it... all that organizational headache.

And yes, That IS a huge rock in da shoe.

What do you think.

[mopinko]

10. .

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029640361

[mopinko]

11. .

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10141875656

[mopinko]

12. .

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029640267

[Binkie The Clown]

14. Until Trump tries to put a travel ban on refugees from Puerto Rico.

Yah, I know, they are U.S. citizens, but I wonder if Dotard Trump knows that.

[mopinko]

15. i have to wonder if that is not the whole problem.

we should have gotten people out of there before the storm hit. i guess if they were lily white english speakers we couldnt have had more ships there to pick them up.

[Adrahil]

20. Not necessarily against, but take them where?

In general, I think we should be launching a MAJOR relief operation. THAT should be the focus, not the bogus tax "reform."

[jberryhill]

28. Drop them off at a cruise ship dock in Miami apparently

"Have a nice day!"

[mopinko]

31. where ever the hell they want to go. they are americans, not refugees.

many of them have family in the u.s. i assume that most who would want to leave have somewhere they want to go. otherwise they would want to stay.

[redstatebluegirl]

26. I have seen requests for private planes to help evacuate seriously ill patients from the hospitals.

I think it will be up to the citizens who care to help them. Trump will not help "brown people".

[mopinko]

33. just not right.

this should be job one.

[redstatebluegirl]

35. Absolutely, if this were Houston it would be.

[yallerdawg]

30. Well, it's not like the odds are good...

they will get hit by another major hurricane like Maria so soon: they said a couple weeks before when Irma hit Puerto Rico.

If you want to live on an "island paradise" I reckon you have to pay the price.

[mopinko]

32. and i reckon that price just went way the fuck up.

the big thing is- jobs were washed away, too.
how long is it going to take to rebuild infrastructure not just for residents, but for tourists? it's gonna be years, if ever. ask new orleans.

[Lee-Lee]

48. I've actually done military logistics

Is not as easy as "get them out".

First, you need a defined destination. "Out" isn't a defined destination. If you take a plane load of sick people with medical needs out and have no clue where they are headed now they are dropped off at a flight line somewhere with nobody to care for them or anywhere to go. You haven't fixed a problem, just created new ones.

Second, you can't do "supplies in people out" fast on planes like C-17's. The C-17 configured for passengers can carry a lot of people very uncomfortably- imagine the worst airline seat ever set up so you have way less legroom than the worst civilian airline. But you have to understand that when cargo comes in a C-130 or C-17 it's all loaded on special aluminum pallets- A 463L pallet if you want to Google and see one- that lock into the floor and get rolled out. Your problem is that your seats for carrying passengers are aso set up on these same type pallets so they can set them up for passengers by just locking the seats into the floor. So if you are carrying cargo you don't have the passenger seat pallets. The same goes for configured to medical flights, it is all on pallets.

So if a flight is to carry people off it has to arrive configured for passengers, because there is not a huge stock of extra seat pallets there.

So every flight in to move people can't move in supplies. You can't do supplies in-people out. It's either cargo in, empty back (maybe a few people) or empty seats over and people back.

More people are helped by a flight full of cargo on than are helped by a flight of people out.

Same goes for ships hauling people- we don't have "troop transports" for moving bulk people, and the ships there do far more good moving people and goods ashore than trying to get people off the island- and once again, where do they go if you do? Drop them off at the beach in Florida and wave goodbye?

[FLPanhandle]

49. Good post

However, it'll be ignored because the self proclaimed "expert" will ignore it. It's "simple" because they don't understand and don't care to understand.

[mopinko]

52. dang du. who woulda thunk that aiding americans in distress could

turn into a trollfest.
amazing.

[mopinko]

55. gee

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029643386

[Not Ruth]

56. Stage 1 would be setting up the dreaded FEMA camp for 2 million people and arranging to process them

Food, funds, housing, clothing, sponsors, final transport, etc

[mopinko]

57. much easier to do here than in pr.

but sponsors? they dont need sponsors. they are citizens.
many of them have people here. people go back and forth quite a bit.
i assume those that would go would tend to have somewhere to go.

[Not Ruth]

58. Of course they need sponsors

To help them get settled wherever they ultimately reside. How do you find a school, a house, a hospital, a book group, a church, a date for Saturday, who do your kids talk to about relocation anxiety, etc.

[mopinko]

59. it would be nice but these are americans.

i can move to a new place w/o a big brother.
and again, people go back and forth to puerto rico, they have family and friends here. there are large pr communities in most big cities.
most who wish to come will be coming because they have ties that they can depend on. we dont need to treat them like refugees or children.