"Why didn't she say something?"

[WhiskeyGrinder]

The thing is, she probably already did.

Maybe in kindergarten about the boy who wanted to show her his penis, but she was told to just look away.

Or it could have been in fifth grade about the kid who sat behind her and whispered things under his breath over and over again, she was told it's because he likes her and doesn't know how to show it. Did she try talking to him?

She might have said something in junior high about the boys who tried to grope her in the hallway, but was told she was trouble. There's a dress code, after all!

When she said something in high school about that one guy on the football team, she may have been told she was a slut or a bitch. Probably both.

In college, she might have mentioned the dropout who shows up at parties and hits on the freshman girls, at which point everyone wondered why she had to be such a fucking downer or so uptight.

At work she may have had the courage to ask about that guy in accounting who offers backrubs in the break room, at which point she was told he does that to everyone.

When she asked her guy friends for to do something about their friend who says the most inappropriate things when he comes over to watch football, they may have said it's hard for him since his dad died and they want to be there for him, you know?

It goes on and on. This is what rape culture looks like: disbelief of women's experiences. Putting men's feelings above women's safety. There are women who speak out. There are women who speak until they're heard -- and supported, and advocated for, and understood. But it can be hard.

I was thinking about this after reading this (long) advice column. It was so, so familiar to me and probably will be to many of you as well. Women need men to hear them the first time they say things about other men in their midst.

https://captainawkward.com/2012/08/07/322-323-my-friend-group-has-a-case-of-the-creepy-dude-how-do-we-clear-that-up/

[Darlene Johnston]

1. real bad

thats awful who is this girl. we have a rape culture for sure they just always rape us. now insurance pays for there pills to make there peckers hard and we cant even get a abortion in most places

[Hekate]

3. I Don't know how to classify this, your first post, Darlene Johnston

But enjoy your stay.

[ehrnst]

9. Seriously... (nt)

[nature-lover]

2. Thank you!

[spanone]

4. i've heard the same bullshit about Obama

[WhiskeyGrinder]

5. In what context?

[Stonepounder]

6. K & R +100

I think you nailed it. And adult role models have a responsibility to actually BE role models!

[LittleGirl]

7. Story of my life

I was one of those cute girls and I can’t count how many times I’ve been hit on. I have had 3 creeps try to friend me in the past week. Who are these guys? I’m too old for that shit and I am sick of it. Leave us alone. Talk to your sons, brothers and uncles that they are gross if they continue to bother women. Yes, I have been drugged and raped when I was much younger so I feel I have a right to hate lots of creeps. My husband is a saint.

[lindysalsagal]

8. Don't forget the girlie posters in the auto repair shop.

Pisses me right off.

[Bluepinky]

62. Yea, that's gross and also very unprofessional.

[concreteblue]

10. Sorry....

"In college, she might have mentioned the dropout who shows up at parties and hits on the freshman girls, at which point everyone wondered why she had to be such a fucking downer or so uptight. "
Did said dropout attempt to rape her? Or did he just hit on her?
Sorry, being hit on is not "Rape culture".
It is this type of unfathomable hysteria that discredits legitimate complaints.
Let the flaming begin.......

[WhiskeyGrinder]

11. Sorry I wasn't clearer.

I meant to make it more along the lines of the guy we've all met, someone like...

In college, she might have mentioned the 25-year-old dropout who shows up at parties and hits on the freshman girls, at which point everyone wondered why she had to be such a fucking downer or so uptight. He buys the beer, after all."

Would you find it helpful if I edited the OP? I'd hate to think it looks hysterical -- but if you found a dent in an otherwise watertight OP, I'd love to address it.

[Honeycombe8]

14. It's the culture of doing what you do in your post: focusing on the female doing something wrong.

Instead of on the male, who really has done something wrong.

You: Well, why would she even mention it, since a dropout hitting on her is normal? (It's not.) But the point is not that she is confusing normal behavior with rape. It's that it's a precursor to what will be said if HIS behavior is more egregious. At what point would you agree? If she says she was raped, you will ask "Did you report it?" You may also ask, "What evidence is there of it?" You may also ask, "Why were you hanging around a drunk guy?" You may also ask, "How were you dressed?" or "Did you come on to him, or behave in a way that he thought you were coming on to him?"

Focus is repeatedly on HER behavior and incorrect viewpoint, since it is ASSUMED that the guy is in the right, up until there's a conviction of rape. Even then, some men will continue with their support of the male.

I supposed it's understandable. Men can place themselves in that man's position, and see themselves as being railroaded. They identify with the perp and see the perp as "normal."

The point is..it's almost pointless to report offenses, because of the attitude. The female is blamed or said to be lying. I understand why they wouldn't report it. But I don't understand reporting it years later. There's really no point in that, unless it's to support a current accuser, to point out that it's an old M.O. the perp has been using for a long time (like the Bill Cosby situation).

[concreteblue]

15. How nice of you to read my mind.

Last edited Wed Oct 11, 2017, 02:36 AM - Edit history (1)

My wife is a Sexual abuse conselor. What you are saying is as ridiculous as the OP.
"But the point is not that she is confusing normal behavior with rape. It's that it's a precursor to what will be said if HIS behavior is more egregious. "
Key word:"IF"
Also, being hit on at a college party, regardless of who is being hit on and by whom, IS COMPLETELY F#(&ing NORMAL!
It's what people at parties do.
My point in my first post stands.

[Mariana]

16. This is fascinating.

Why are you so angry about the OP and the poster's comments to you?

You know perfectly well that sometimes the guy who's always hitting on the youngest and most vulnerable women at every party is a creep. So why did you jump on that one item in a pretty long list to come unglued about?

[concreteblue]

29. "Why are you so angry about the OP and the poster's comments to you?"

Angry? In what universe? I pointed out a rather obvious misstatement. I have followed up with the op.
Perhaps you have a need for someone who disagrees with you to be angry?

[Mariana]

32. Most people shout and swear when they're angry

not during civil disagreements. You did post, "COMPLETELY F#(&ing NORMAL!" did you not?

I have to wonder if that's how you would react in real life. Say you're at a party, and some young woman you're acquainted with approaches you. She says, "Blue, see that guy over there? He's been hitting on me since I got here, and he's really creeping me out." What do you say to her? "Unfathomable hysteria! Ridiculous! it's COMPLETELY F#(&ing NORMAL!" Is that what you say to her?

[concreteblue]

35. No.

I sometimes shout and swear when faced with ridiculous conclusions. Like the idea that a girl being hit on at a party is somehow "rape culture".
I say to her, "Tell him to leave you alone. If he does not, I will have a woed with him."
That, however, does not change the fact that guys hitting on girls and vice versa is, "completely fu(&ing normal"

[WhiskeyGrinder]

18. I'm curious what you thought about my response to your post.

If I had reworded it as described, would that have been helpful?

[concreteblue]

28. Yes

Your rewording made more sense. But still, it is only "rape culture" if the guy demands sex because "he bought beer" or whatever.
Like I said or implied, these sort of unfounded assumptions cause legitimate complaints to be taken less seriously and this is what should concern anyone who is truly concerned about "rape culture".

[WhiskeyGrinder]

31. What kind of "unfounded assumptions" did I make, other than my inartful wording in the one instance?

It sounds like you're trying to dismiss something, but I'm not clear on what it is.

[concreteblue]

36. "unfounded assumptions" may be the wrong words here

But in the same sense that your words are.
"It goes on and on. This is what rape culture looks like: disbelief of women's experiences. Putting men's feelings above women's safety. There are women who speak out. There are women who speak until they're heard -- and supported, and advocated for, and understood. But it can be hard. "
I agree with this paragraph. What I don't agree with is that any of the hypotheticals you proposed as written are necessarily any of these things.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

41. Your response makes it sound like that the hypotheticals I've listed -- which are hardly

hypotheticals -- aren't examples of women being disbelieved or silenced. Is it that they're so inexact, that they're lacking in details, that makes you uncomfortable?

[concreteblue]

43. HYPOTHETICALS IN THE SENSE THAT

you are not relating an actual event. This is in no way to say these things do not happen and sometimes just like this, but you are relating them in "hypothetical" way.
And I am not uncomfortable at all. I am pointing out that any event where "rape culture" is being perpetrated is going to involve a lot more than what was posted, and again, that making any one of these things some broad statement about "rape culture" diminishes real concerns about such.
It is not hard to understand, really. My wife understands it, and she is a Sexual Abuse Counselor.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

44. "You are not relating an actual event."

I'm not?

This is in no way to say these things do not happen and sometimes just like this, but you are relating them in "hypothetical" way.

It's unclear to me why hypothetical/not hypothetical makes the difference.

And I am not uncomfortable at all. I am pointing out that any event where "rape culture" is being perpetrated is going to involve a lot more than what was posted, and again, that making any one of these things some broad statement about "rape culture" diminishes real concerns about such.

So if I had put more details in to show you how someone like you, whose wife is a sexual abuse counselor, could excuse himself from the example, you'd feel better about me throwing around the words "rape culture"?

It is not hard to understand, really. My wife understands it, and she is a Sexual Abuse Counselor.

Maybe she could get it on here and explain it to me.

[concreteblue]

47. She could.

But she finds DU overpopulated with inane self-righteous posts from those who can't analyze their own words outside of the light of ego.
Me, I love DU....

[WhiskeyGrinder]

48. I guess it's up to you, then.

So what's the objection?

[concreteblue]

49. I don't think I can make myself any clearer.

I can explain it to you.
I can't understand it for you.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

52. If this is your explanation:

What I don't agree with is that any of the hypotheticals you proposed as written are necessarily any of these things.

...then it's so conveniently vague it makes everything clear.

[concreteblue]

53. If you don't

understand that I am referring to the things in the paragraph directly above the one you have quoted, then perhaps a remedial English class is in order?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

56. Perhaps you didn't understand my last post.

Everything is clear.

[concreteblue]

57. I am starting to think you don't understand your last post

And therefore may be intentionally obtuse. Apparently my wife's assessment of DU is more correct than I am willing to admit.....
Have a good evening. I tire of this pointless exercise.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

58. Not at all. You're making yourself very clear.

[Honeycombe8]

26. Reading your words, not your mind. nt

[concreteblue]

27. " you will ask "Did you report it?""

Really? Will I? How do you know?

[concreteblue]

37. Also,

" It's the culture of doing what you do in your post: focusing on the female doing something wrong."
Please quote me to support this assertion.

[bluepen]

17. Agreed. Theres a tendency these days to label all kinds of behavior

as somehow part of a “rape culture.” It waters down the word, which is bad for those with legitimate accusations of rape. The more some overreact, cry wolf, etc., the more latitude a true offender has. Yet some don’t make the connection (or care). Their self-righteousness is more important than the well-being of the victims they falsely claim to care about.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

19. My wording in that one particular example was inexact and didn't correctly describe the scenario

I had in mind. What kinds of behavior are labeled as rape culture that you think shouldn't be?

[Mariana]

20. I understood what you meant.

Of course, I'm a woman.

Isn't it interesting the level of anger over that one little item in your list? Right off the bat, it's "hysterical overreaction" and your entire OP is "ridiculous". Some guy who is always going after the youngest and most vulnerable women (or girls) is "COMPLETELY F#(&ing NORMAL!"

No mention from that poster, of course, about the other items on the list. Just the one that could be misinterpreted.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

21. Some people will always look for loopholes, because it's easier than addressing the real problem.

[Pacifist Patriot]

23. Yep

I could scream or cry reading these comments.

[Pacifist Patriot]

33. It absolutely does not water down the word.

No one is drawing an equivalency between being creepy in the break room with actual rape, to randomly choose one of the examples in the OP.

It's the response to it that brushes aside the creep's motives and labels the woman's discomfort as being the problem that is symptomatic of rape culture. It tells us that his feelings are more important than our autonomy and feelings.

Anyone dropping the word 'culture' from the phrase is at risk of missing the point. Grossly.

[mercuryblues]

34. really

So when the scenario happens and she does say something she will be labeled as a downer and causing trouble. Now the next time she goes to a party and sees the same thing, different guy she WON"T say anything because by this point she has been silenced. and told this is a normal behavior. Only this guy is a rapist and rapes someone. Guys like him rely on the silencing of others to prey.

I wonder why this scenario is the one people are upset about?

[Pacifist Patriot]

40. So depressing!

[concreteblue]

46. Nailed it.

And notice when asked to support their claims about what I am saying with quotes,....crickets.....

[bluepen]

50. Yep, and I applaud your patient effort.

I myself have no such patience for people talking in circles. Good luck.

Edit: Also amusing is the assumption of gender in some of the replies.

[LanternWaste]

25. You seem unfathomably hysterical.

I'd pretend a mere example is actual hysteria, and completely ignore the premise as well if doing so reinforced my bias.

"Let the flaming begin..."
I'd also construct my own cross from which to hang in glorious and righteous martyrdom, especially when saying as much is, well, little more than the same "unfathomable hysteria" I indict others for (but I get it-- holding others to a higher standard than we hold ourselves to is very healthy for our biases).

[Lyricalinklines]

12. THIS. THIS is how we have women whose voices have been stifled!

THIS. This is how young girl voices become ... stifled by the time she's a teenager. This is how girls wings become clipped.

Then she has a part time job and been groomed by family/school officials/society that there's nothing she can do about unwanted behavior from males. She has internalized the message to be that she's the problem. THIS is how we come to have a society in which abusive behavior persists.

THIS is why women speaking up now is important.
THIS is why LISTENING to her is important.

Yes, hearing such from a young girl, or even women, is uncomfortable.
Yes, hearing such from a young girl means you've a responsibility to act according to that responsibility to get help and protect the girl.
THAT'S WHAT ADULTS NEED DO.

Please understand the fact girls do speak up! Yet women with their wings clipped continue to groom the young girls when they do speak out.

Girls need be believed when they do, supported when they do and protected.
Women need understand they don't have to accept unwanted behavior from men...they can say no without fear of job loss. They need speak up. They need be supported by other women!

Men need to not tolerate unwanted behavior displayed by males.

Each time young boys see young girls blamed for his/their behavior, he's being enabled to continue what he's been asked to be stopped. And as human nature is, he'll continue testing those boundaries until he understands them.

A boy who sees his actions bring consequences will be a man with self control.

A girl whose voice is supported will learn to use it appropriately.

Girls need grow up with their voices intact, unrestrained their body is theirs and they have complete control over it.

And boys need grow up understanding self control means stopping any action another human considers hurtful.

Respect. All the way around.

[Honeycombe8]

13. "How were you dressed?" "You shouldn't have been there in the 1st place."

"Well, I guess they thought you were nickel or dime. Are you?"

"What did you do to encourage that?"

Or...the blank, accusatory stare, to mean that you are "one of those." One of those who starts trouble. Is a tease and then complains about being chased around the desk.

"Did you lead him on?"

Most of these things I've heard/experienced.

[niyad]

22. NAILED IT

[Pacifist Patriot]

24. Story of a lot of our lives. And those objecting to these examples...

Being symptomatic of rape culture, clearly do not understand what rape culture means.

[suffragette]

30. Well said.

[concreteblue]

38. Being hit on at a college party is not "Rape Culture". Period.

Claiming it is leads only to the result posters here are complaining about.
To everyone questioning me here: Again, my wife is a sexual abuse counselor. I have donated many hours of my time to awareness and survivor events.
I also have a daughter and a son, both college aged. They were raised to respect everyone and not put up with any bullshit. They both turned out great.

[Pacifist Patriot]

39. You are completely missing the point.

Being hit on at a college party is not indicative of rape culture. However, being hit on at a college party by a guy you feel is being creepy and being told to get over it or ignore him is symptomatic of rape culture.

I don't care what your wife does or who your children are. If you don't grasp that dismissing women's instincts about their well-being is symptomatic of rape culture, then you don't understand rape culture. It really is that simple.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

42. "If you don't grasp that dismissing women's instincts about their well-being is symptomatic of rape

culture, then you don't understand rape culture. It really is that simple."

BAM.

[concreteblue]

45. I understand it perfectly.

I am in no way dismissing women's instincts about it. I pointed something out which is true. The OP then modified their description.
My point stands.
I can explain it to you. I can't understand it for you.

[Pacifist Patriot]

63. Thanks for demonstrating my point beautifully. Much appreciated!

[Kali]

54. it's not the hitting-on that is the problem

it is the creepy fucker doing it and the other men/people diminishing the victim's concerns.

[concreteblue]

55. That is understood.

Please quote me if you think anything I have posted says otherwise.

[Kali]

60. ...

I can explain it to you. I can't understand it for you.

[concreteblue]

61. Touche'

[Mariana]

59. There is intentional misunderstanding going in here.

Everyone knows that sometimes the guy who's hitting on a woman is a real creep, and occasionally he's dangerous. They're pretending to believe the OP said or implied that any man who hits on a woman anytime is a problem. We can only speculate as to why.

[concreteblue]

64. It was originally inartfully worded.

I pointed that out. The OP changed their wording. I acknowledged their point. It was then twisted by others and the op into something it in no way was.
THanks for playing.

[Mariana]

65. You dug up a three week old thread to say that?

I suppose everyone needs a hobby.

[concreteblue]

66. Had not logged in in three weeks.

Been busy. You responded to say that?
See how that works?

[mountain grammy]

51. Putting men's feelings above women's safety.

That is America.