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Fri Oct 13, 2017, 05:34 PM

 

Enough with the scolding please.

Example:

Venomous posts yelling at random people on DU for allegedly not supporting Hillary Clinton . Blah blah blah Susan Sarandon. Blah blah Bernie.

We come here to avoid divisive rabble rousing like that, and living in the past doesn't help the future.

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Arrow 238 replies Author Time Post
Reply Enough with the scolding please. (Original post)
elehhhhna Oct 2017 OP
pnwmom Oct 2017 #1
elehhhhna Oct 2017 #4
cwydro Oct 2017 #22
Hortensis Oct 2017 #129
George Eliot Oct 2017 #197
Eliot Rosewater Oct 2017 #28
BainsBane Oct 2017 #89
treestar Oct 2017 #149
still_one Oct 2017 #209
wasupaloopa Oct 2017 #5
SunSeeker Oct 2017 #30
doc03 Oct 2017 #31
pangaia Oct 2017 #32
lunamagica Oct 2017 #34
Tarheel_Dem Oct 2017 #35
NanceGreggs Oct 2017 #36
stevenleser Oct 2017 #42
JHan Oct 2017 #47
sheshe2 Oct 2017 #54
calimary Oct 2017 #94
sheshe2 Oct 2017 #95
JCanete Oct 2017 #126
JHan Oct 2017 #133
JCanete Oct 2017 #150
JHan Oct 2017 #151
JCanete Oct 2017 #155
JHan Oct 2017 #158
JCanete Oct 2017 #189
JHan Oct 2017 #195
JCanete Oct 2017 #196
JHan Oct 2017 #198
JCanete Oct 2017 #203
Kahuna7 Oct 2017 #60
sheshe2 Oct 2017 #91
NurseJackie Oct 2017 #72
brer cat Oct 2017 #74
terip64 Oct 2017 #79
PatrickforO Oct 2017 #82
BainsBane Oct 2017 #96
PatrickforO Oct 2017 #105
Beartracks Oct 2017 #107
ATL Ebony Oct 2017 #213
BainsBane Oct 2017 #109
PatrickforO Oct 2017 #181
BainsBane Oct 2017 #183
ATL Ebony Oct 2017 #210
prayin4rain Oct 2017 #92
aikoaiko Oct 2017 #112
George Eliot Oct 2017 #199
BlueMTexpat Oct 2017 #113
JCanete Oct 2017 #124
Squinch Oct 2017 #147
JCanete Oct 2017 #157
Kentonio Oct 2017 #222
treestar Oct 2017 #142
kstewart33 Oct 2017 #163
liquid diamond Oct 2017 #166
LWolf Oct 2017 #202
Kentonio Oct 2017 #223
ATL Ebony Oct 2017 #208
Tom Rinaldo Oct 2017 #64
LongTomH Oct 2017 #76
Quixote1818 Oct 2017 #234
DoubleAgentOrange Oct 2017 #132
lunamagica Oct 2017 #216
Wibly Oct 2017 #186
wasupaloopa Oct 2017 #2
elehhhhna Oct 2017 #6
wasupaloopa Oct 2017 #8
ffr Oct 2017 #12
janx Oct 2017 #27
TDale313 Oct 2017 #77
Eliot Rosewater Oct 2017 #29
ehrnst Oct 2017 #16
lunamagica Oct 2017 #37
Tarheel_Dem Oct 2017 #3
elehhhhna Oct 2017 #7
Lil Missy Oct 2017 #9
Skittles Oct 2017 #10
Tarheel_Dem Oct 2017 #18
stonecutter357 Oct 2017 #33
NurseJackie Oct 2017 #134
liquid diamond Oct 2017 #165
Kentonio Oct 2017 #224
Lil Missy Oct 2017 #225
Kentonio Oct 2017 #226
ffr Oct 2017 #11
janx Oct 2017 #23
stevenleser Oct 2017 #44
janx Oct 2017 #49
stevenleser Oct 2017 #51
janx Oct 2017 #167
stevenleser Oct 2017 #175
Lil Missy Oct 2017 #171
Justice Oct 2017 #13
janx Oct 2017 #15
Justice Oct 2017 #206
janx Oct 2017 #211
Tarheel_Dem Oct 2017 #21
Justice Oct 2017 #205
Tarheel_Dem Oct 2017 #221
Iggo Oct 2017 #14
LineLineReply .
Squinch Oct 2017 #85
guillaumeb Oct 2017 #17
Dennis Donovan Oct 2017 #19
StevieM Oct 2017 #40
mcar Oct 2017 #63
calimary Oct 2017 #97
BainsBane Oct 2017 #103
calimary Oct 2017 #110
BainsBane Oct 2017 #164
Jim Lane Oct 2017 #123
Tom Rinaldo Oct 2017 #125
elehhhhna Oct 2017 #138
NBachers Oct 2017 #20
janx Oct 2017 #24
Blue_true Oct 2017 #66
Madam45for2923 Oct 2017 #25
Moral Compass Oct 2017 #26
InAbLuEsTaTe Oct 2017 #111
leftstreet Oct 2017 #38
MuseRider Oct 2017 #39
elehhhhna Oct 2017 #140
MuseRider Oct 2017 #152
elehhhhna Oct 2017 #153
MuseRider Oct 2017 #156
Downtown Hound Oct 2017 #41
coolsandy Oct 2017 #57
Blue_true Oct 2017 #67
questionseverything Oct 2017 #70
Blue_true Oct 2017 #73
Jim Lane Oct 2017 #187
Blue_true Oct 2017 #228
progressoid Oct 2017 #194
Blue_true Oct 2017 #229
Jim Lane Oct 2017 #230
progressoid Oct 2017 #231
Blue_true Oct 2017 #232
progressoid Oct 2017 #233
Blue_true Oct 2017 #236
progressoid Oct 2017 #238
Martin Eden Oct 2017 #43
samnsara Oct 2017 #45
Blue_Tires Oct 2017 #46
Blue_true Oct 2017 #68
zentrum Oct 2017 #48
SalviaBlue Oct 2017 #62
zentrum Oct 2017 #71
newblewtoo Oct 2017 #50
Madam45for2923 Oct 2017 #52
Blue_true Oct 2017 #69
Philistein Oct 2017 #53
calimary Oct 2017 #98
left-of-center2012 Oct 2017 #55
elehhhhna Oct 2017 #143
MFM008 Oct 2017 #56
calimary Oct 2017 #99
czarjak Oct 2017 #58
yuiyoshida Oct 2017 #59
stevenleser Oct 2017 #65
SalviaBlue Oct 2017 #61
MrsCoffee Oct 2017 #75
TomVilmer Oct 2017 #119
MrsCoffee Oct 2017 #154
TomVilmer Oct 2017 #161
cstanleytech Oct 2017 #78
BootinUp Oct 2017 #80
mountain grammy Oct 2017 #81
Squinch Oct 2017 #84
Tarheel_Dem Oct 2017 #117
mountain grammy Oct 2017 #135
Tarheel_Dem Oct 2017 #220
mountain grammy Oct 2017 #235
MaryMagdaline Oct 2017 #179
rzemanfl Oct 2017 #185
BainsBane Oct 2017 #83
Squinch Oct 2017 #88
elehhhhna Oct 2017 #144
BainsBane Oct 2017 #162
Jim Lane Oct 2017 #86
Squinch Oct 2017 #87
Jim Lane Oct 2017 #100
Squinch Oct 2017 #137
BainsBane Oct 2017 #90
Jim Lane Oct 2017 #101
BainsBane Oct 2017 #102
Jim Lane Oct 2017 #120
Squinch Oct 2017 #139
tonedevil Oct 2017 #160
Jim Lane Oct 2017 #169
BainsBane Oct 2017 #178
elehhhhna Oct 2017 #190
BainsBane Oct 2017 #218
elehhhhna Oct 2017 #219
Squinch Oct 2017 #180
BainsBane Oct 2017 #174
Jim Lane Oct 2017 #177
elehhhhna Oct 2017 #191
Jim Lane Oct 2017 #200
Tarheel_Dem Oct 2017 #118
Jim Lane Oct 2017 #122
betsuni Oct 2017 #93
Tavarious Jackson Oct 2017 #104
liquid diamond Oct 2017 #172
radical noodle Oct 2017 #106
liquid diamond Oct 2017 #173
greatauntoftriplets Oct 2017 #214
lunamagica Oct 2017 #215
Kaleva Oct 2017 #108
SMC22307 Oct 2017 #168
Madam45for2923 Oct 2017 #114
Name removed Oct 2017 #115
Vinca Oct 2017 #116
maxrandb Oct 2017 #121
Madam45for2923 Oct 2017 #127
maxrandb Oct 2017 #182
tavernier Oct 2017 #128
DinahMoeHum Oct 2017 #130
IronLionZion Oct 2017 #131
USALiberal Oct 2017 #136
NurseJackie Oct 2017 #141
treestar Oct 2017 #145
NurseJackie Oct 2017 #146
lark Oct 2017 #148
kcr Oct 2017 #159
SMC22307 Oct 2017 #170
LonePirate Oct 2017 #176
demmiblue Oct 2017 #184
elehhhhna Oct 2017 #192
George Eliot Oct 2017 #201
LonePirate Oct 2017 #207
George Eliot Oct 2017 #212
Wibly Oct 2017 #188
Bucky Oct 2017 #193
RKP5637 Oct 2017 #204
still_one Oct 2017 #217
MadCrow Oct 2017 #227
Post removed Oct 2017 #237

Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 05:36 PM

1. Bernie is an ally. Sarandon is not. People should feel free to criticize her here. Please don't

lump them together.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #1)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 05:45 PM

4. They are both examples . Susan is really not relevant. Not anymore anyway!

 

Does anybody here actually vote based on celebrity endorsements?

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Response to elehhhhna (Reply #4)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:17 PM

22. I agree.

I couldn’t care less about Sarandon.

I cannot imagine anyone voting a certain way simply because she said to do so.

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Response to cwydro (Reply #22)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 08:32 AM

129. Can we also agree that this OP is a divisive, rabble-rousing "contribution?"

Every post like this should remind us of what's in it for the Republicans, and Putin, for us to be squabbling internally.

JUST SAY NO.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #129)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 04:14 PM

197. Not at all. At least, not for me. When I read this OP, I hear common sense.

I guess we're all different.

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Response to elehhhhna (Reply #4)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:27 PM

28. Constant nonstop drumbeat of lies about Hillary repeated by famous people

of course it matters.

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Response to elehhhhna (Reply #4)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 12:34 AM

89. Then why did you include her?

You chose to focus on her. That says a great deal about your priorities. You demand unity with an extremely rich person who used her wealth and fame to promote the election of Donald Trump. Clearly the unity you are advocating for has nothing to do with the Democratic Party or getting Democrats elected. That's particularly evident by the fact you chose to insist on unity around Sarandon and not Democrats, not Feinstein or any of the other Democrats who are regularly criticized on this site. Of course that's legitimate, while criticizing Bernie isn't, because you like Bernie, and what matters is you.

I am trying not to post about Bernie, but my opinion has been solidified by his statements and actions since last November. That won't change. You may succeed in policing what people are allowed to post on this site but not their thoughts or votes. That so many of his supporters are singularly focused on him and ensuring he never be subject to question or criticism only serves to convince me that my views are correct.

Of course, you could just select trash thread, but then we know this has nothing to do with what you see and everything to do with what people are allowed to say and think. And that control is what you pretend is unity.


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Response to elehhhhna (Reply #4)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 10:36 AM

149. It becomes part of a chorus

that does have effects.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #1)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 05:45 PM

5. If Bernie were my ally he would work to get Dems elected in 2018 instead of criticizing

 

them and putting up bills that have no chance of seeing daylight.

Without being in power we are in no place to get anything we want.

Sorry not a Bernie fan

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #5)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:31 PM

30. +1

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #5)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:32 PM

31. +1

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #5)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:43 PM

32. -1

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #5)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:48 PM

34. +1

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #5)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:49 PM

35. +10

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #5)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:51 PM

36. + 100! n/t

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #5)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 07:23 PM

42. +999999999999...

 

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #5)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 07:37 PM

47. +10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Allies don't bash Allies who are in a position of weakness. Allies don't engage in friendly fire. Allies understand they're part of a team.


Nuff said.

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Response to JHan (Reply #47)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 07:49 PM

54. I raise ya +2000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #54)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 01:00 AM

94. I'll see that and raise ya 10 to the one-millionth power.

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Response to calimary (Reply #94)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 01:06 AM

95. I fold.



You win~

Hey, calimary.

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Response to JHan (Reply #47)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 08:10 AM

126. well is he supposed to be an ally to a team, or to common goals? If to common goals, how can

 


you be an ally to them if you don't advocate for them?

This constant refrain that pretends that Democrats are who they are without a left pushing them to be who they are is entirely out of context. Democrats don't look nearly as progressive without these non-allies. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't turn to how progressive the democratic platform was in the previous GE as a reason for why liberal criticism is harmful and unwarranted, when that very platform is the result of liberal criticism. We are not better as a party or as a progressive movement when we just shut up.

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Response to JCanete (Reply #126)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 09:34 AM

133. And this is the problem..

"you be an ally to them if you don't advocate for them? "

who is not advocating for goals? The Democrats I follow all advocate for goals I'm in support of -

what you're arguing is this:

"Sanders (and OR) are the only ones out here fighting for us and the Democrats better get on board" - which is false.

And that's not how it works, especially if they express interest in NOT working with Dems, and criticize DEMS. Dems have been repeatedly told to shut up, get on board with them or risk being primaried. Nina has said she'd quicker find common ground with a Republican and she's not interested really in working with Democrats. Dems get insulted as "neo-liberals" "shills" etc..This is not helpful, it's not how adults behave- it's how petulant children behave.

Democrats have always allowed a plurality of interests to exist within the party because the Democratic Party is a coalition made of not just progressives, but liberals and the center left. When people calling themselves allies choose to target center-left and liberals with selective purity tests, that's friendly fire. Selective Purity Tests are moving targets, those using them are the ones who get to decide who is good enough and who is not - this is harmful bullshit which degrades the Party Brand. Many average democrats, and liberals are tired of it.

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Response to JHan (Reply #133)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 10:40 AM

150. that doesn't make any sense. You get primaried because we'd rather have somebody else in the seat

 


and thats fucking democracy, or as close as one gets in this world where money buys the y opportunity to primary. How is this different than any political process? I don't get the outrage. This is a group of voters who want to see something out of their politicians. They have issues they care about. It isn't like more liberal politicians don't get primaried. Pete Stark in CA got replaced by Swalwel. Yay?
That's the way it works, but at least these funding efforts are far more grass roots, because frankly, there is not much big money to be had for left-wing candidates...go figure. Isn't it in the primary process that we should be having a spirited debate about our candidate? Isn't that exactly the appropriate time to weigh in and lend support to the candidate who best represents your interests?


Where did she say she'd quicker find ground with a republican? Not doubting you, but I remember one quote on this subject that did not say that. I assume there's a different one?

Also, you have a very one-sided perspective on who gets insulted. Sanders fans and Sanders get insulted as either trying to pass off ponies, or being stupid enough to accept imaginary ponies. They also get entirely mischaracterized as impractical purists, which is far from the mark, and this is easily provable. When convenient, berniebros gets trucked out to try to define anybody who is pushing a sanderesque agenda. None of that is helpful either.

I for one, do not call democrats shills, or very rarely do I feel that confident in somebody's motivations. If you believe as I do, that the reason we can't make progress on a whole swath of issues is because there is a financial incentive for us not to make progress, because there is a financial incentive to divide us over wedge issues and to scape-goat etc. then no, it isn't selective at all to go at the money that funds political campaigns and attack ads, etc. as a primary campaign issue.

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Response to JCanete (Reply #150)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 11:04 AM

151. Uhm.

I never questioned the primary process, that isn't even in my post. Don't deliberably misconstrue my post because you're determined to avoid my points.

Here's Nina's greatest hits: -

"I don’t think it is our job nor our obligation to fit in. It’s their job to fit in with us.”
re: fitting in with the DNC or with Democrats. Oh I can feel the unity vibes.

"If they want Our Revolution’s endorsement they will seek it like everybody else and so they gotta start with the local affiliates, and if the local affiliates say that this is the person that we want to back, then there it is. There it is." :
this is regarding progressives who don't directly support Sander only getting OR endorsement if they suck up to local activists of OR's choosing.

“And for me, I’ve also heard the senator (referring to Sanders) say this lately too: Let’s put the political affiliation to the side. If there is a Republican or a Libertarian or Green Party person that believes in Medicare for all, then that’s our kind of person. If there’s somebody that believes that Citizens United needs to be overturned, that we need the 28th amendment to the Constitution that declares that money, corporate money, is not speech and that corporations should not have more speech than Mrs. Johnson down the street and Mr. Gonzalez around the corner, then that’s our kind of people.”
- Which is complete BULLSHIT and she knows it, the only party right now interested in Universal HealthCare are democrats.

Google the quotes because I cannot believe you don't know this already, these quotes have been floated around this forum sometime now, Nina's position is well known.

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Response to JHan (Reply #151)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 11:22 AM

155. first, you said she'd sooner work with a republican. Where is that quote? I was familiar with these

 

quotes, and this was the quote I was wondering if you were referencing. It is not what you said it says. You are right, its a total hypothetical, which means she won't be working with any republicans any time soon. And? Should she have a party litmus test when the very point of our revolution is to have policy litmus tests?

As to the rest, I don't understand what your issue is? This is a group that is not the Democratic party. This is a group which will help candidates run either within a party or I assume outside of it, if they like the candidate. Third party vote splitting might be a problem, and I'd be interested in their position on that, but as to the rest...you find her unwillingness to change our revolution's standards to fit the candidate a matter of sewing disunity? I do not get your outrage at anything that's been said here. Nothing at all about it is strong-arming. Nothing suggests that a candidate has to have their endorsement to win. There is no such thing as people with a small budget singlehandedly bullying anyone into complying with their litmus test. They only gain influence by popular support. If their message doesn't resonate, it will have no effect at all on a candidate's policies. Are they trying to sway public opinion and to use that opinion to have some political leverage? Damn straight. Shouldn't they be?

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Response to JCanete (Reply #155)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 11:58 AM

158. If you can't suss out Nina's meaning in the quotes I provided..

I can't help you.

"You are right, its a total hypothetical, which means she won't be working with any republicans anytime soon"


you're really determined to not read between the lines aren't you?

Here, let me help you: Nina knows damn well there isn't a Republican of any influence or Libertarian who will get on board with Universal HealthCare as she envisions it or the other things she claims to care about, but she throws up this "No matter who they are we'll work with them" as if the parties are the same, when she knows damn well the Democratic Party would be the natural ally for her causes..... but she doesn't want to come out and say that ..

Nina also blamed Democrats as being the party of Wall Street ( Moreso than Republicans) at the People's Summit - this after the GOP passed a banking deregulation bill. There was even a thread about this shit: https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029195600

Furthermore, no organisation interested in building coalition ever says that another organization with similar goals must FIT in with THEM. That's not how coalitions fucking work.

Coalitions work where groups with shared aims come together for a common goal which involves not tearing down each other.

I am not going to repeat myself either, I've explained this concept to you enough times on this forum.

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Response to JHan (Reply #158)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 03:29 PM

189. there is reading between the lines and just seeing things. I totally disagree with you that that is

 


what was being said. It just isn't there. Can you point to Nina Turner saying nice things about Republicans? So far, I don't really follow her but every time people attack her words, I look at the words and the content of the criticism of them and I see a huge disconnect.

Also, is that an actual discussion about Nina's speech rather than Nina herself going on in that thread? I don't see anything specific being pulled out of her speech and talked about. I suggest you look over those posts again. there is literally nothing in them to learn from.

So when Nina says it is the Democrats that are supposed to be the party of the people, you hear that as her making the two parties the same? She's frustrated with the performance of our democratic leaders. She is hardly equivocating the two parties.

This organizations whole purpose is to push certain policy. Why would they endorse people who don't stand for those things? That makes no sense. They are trying to dangle a carrot that candidates might reach for. Sure, if popular opinion sways in this direction, it could become a stick, but it hardly is that now. And you cannot tell me that people with other causes have not done the same thing, when it comes to women's rights, civil rights, etc. Groups endorse or withhold their endorsement based upon rhetoric and performance. When those frontrunners or people in power fail to inspire or turn a deaf ear, damn straight these groups look for different representatives and that's where they put their money. I do not get the line of reasoning you are trying to present, at all.

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Response to JCanete (Reply #189)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 04:00 PM

195. "things I totally disagree with"

I'm just stating Nina's words and what those words mean. You're trying to rationalize her words and pretzeling yourself in the process. I reject bullshit equivocations between Democrats and Republicans, and people who love to indulge in those equivocations are not to be taken seriously..

ever...

The actual speech she gave is in the op in the link I shared - you just need to click the play button.

"Democrats that are supposed to be the party of the people"
- Nina believed Democrats were the party of the people prior to 2015, apparently a meteor fell and changed all that for her and in the blink of two years, Democrats are no longer the party of the people.

And "Party of the People": this is pablum, a slogan, which anyone could use to spin any nonsense they like about anyone or any organization. The philosophic underpinning of the Democratic Party shows what it stands for, the Democratic platform over recent decades shows what it stands for - and last year, the Democratic Platform was the most progressive it's been ---- ever, showing that the so called "democratic establishment" AKA "rulers of the Universe" listened. Yet Nina complains no one is Listening, that the Dems are not the party of the people yadda yadda... self serving griping with no factual basis.

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Response to JHan (Reply #195)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 04:12 PM

196. you are literally not. You are saying read between the lines. That is not just taking her words.

 


Actually, democratic actions show a whole range of things. Some of it is good. Some of it is for shame. We don't have a prison industrial complex by virtue of republicans alone, just as one simple example. We just let that issue go and fester, and we even supported and fed that industry in some of our policies.

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Response to JCanete (Reply #196)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 04:14 PM

198. And...

if I reply to you again.. I will simply repeat myself, over and over and over again. Covering ground I have covered with you numerous times. And now you've jumped to the prison industrial complex, completely ignoring the actual platform last year because it suits you. More purity politics bullshit, part of why we're in the mess we're in.

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Response to JHan (Reply #198)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 04:33 PM

203. Read over your post too fast and missed something important. So you are just talking about

 


the recent platform, which up until the point where the party and Clinton put forward this platform, both seemed fairly recalcitrant to do.

First, I thank you for recognizing that that platform was a response to left-wing voices and the Sanders phenomenon. That kind of suggests they are necessary for progress rather than just a bunch of haters.

Second, I agree. Where the democratic party does the right thing it should certainly earn praise. That hardly means that we should suddenly be placated though, but sure, it should be recognized and Turner should recognize that shift in her rhetoric. I can't say whether she has.

As to your point about that being pablum, sure, "party of the people" is a pretty morphable term, but it does kind of suggest that we are talking about something good for the commons rather than for the "elites." My point is that Nina says THAT is the Democratic Party's MO. That is hardly saying both parties are the same. Even if she's saying the party is failing at that, she is not at all lumping both parties together. She is beseeching the Democratic party. She clearly sees no point in beseeching the Republican party.

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #5)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 08:29 PM

60. + infinity! nt

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Response to Kahuna7 (Reply #60)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 12:41 AM

91. Okay.

You won!

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #5)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 09:38 PM

72. Thank you!

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #5)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 09:40 PM

74. ++++

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #5)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 10:22 PM

79. Yes! Exactly!!!

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #5)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 11:32 PM

82. Sorry, but all Americans do need Medicare.

It is relevant, and it doesn't matter if that bill won't 'see the light of day.' Because people all over the country are now discussing it, getting used to the idea.

Let's talk about what is right, shall we? The reason Bernie is so relevant to so many people is he talks about kitchen table issues. Stuff that people actually care about and worry about. So, you know, he's not a Democrat. He divided the party. He hurt us...blah, blah, blah. Well, he didn't. He said things and took positions that Democrats like me have been STARVING for, have been hoping for decades that we'd get some Dems that DO care about these issues. And, you know, it woke up a lot of us.

Maybe we should focus now on the kitchen table issues that are gonna win us elections. People should know what we stand for. I stand for universal healthcare for all Americans. I stand for educating Americans about taxes and how it actually costs money to provide the services people need. I stand for getting rid of gerrymandering, getting corporate corruption and dollars out of politics, and closing the revolving door between Congress and K Street. I stand for de-privatizing prisons. I stand for retraining law enforcement and demilitarizing so they don't get filled with adrenaline and kill people they should not be killing. I stand for affordable college. Expanded Social Security. I'm for reining in military costs and getting rid of waste, gradually, say over a decade, reducing our military bloat to year 2000 levels. We spend more than the next 9 countries combined, and since JFK's assassination, it seems like the chickenhawks have won for good.

Every single one of those things would significantly improve American lives.

So, Bernie's the bad guy?

Sorry, but I cannot accept that.

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Response to PatrickforO (Reply #82)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 01:08 AM

96. I agree with a lot of those issues

I support single payer, which is why I want to see a serious bill proposed that is written in a way to become law.

I support massive cuts in defense spending. What I object to are claims, not born out by his voting record, that he somehow stands above Democrats on that issue.
https://votesmart.org/candidate/key-votes/27110/bernie-sanders/22/defense#.WeGWlltSzIU
In fact, a number of Democrats have voting records far less accommodating of defense appropriation. Even John McCain opposes the F-35.

We could see support generated around those issues, except the priority for many is promoting Bernie. If the goal is to see issues advanced, people should post about the issues and encourage substantive discussion. Instead we see posts insisting anyone who asks about the details of the bill are the enemy. Clearly that isn't something people do when they want legislation passed. There is another goal, and it's not healthcare or any other issue.

Our last election did focus on kitchen table issues, at least in terms of what our nominee discussed in her campaign speeches. She talked about jobs more than anyone else. She talked about fixing healthcare and education. She developed policies to tackle the systemic inequality in K-12 that cements generations of poverty and ensures those students will never be able to qualify for "free" higher education, that would disproportionately benefit the upper-middle class whose property taxes enable their children to attend high quality schools. She talked about weaning America off fossil fuels and economic development zones that would create new jobs for workers in fossil fuels. The media didn't cover Clinton's issue positions. Now you repeat false media claims that she didn't focus on those issues. I see it time and time again. People refused to look at her website or listen to her speeches, and then made declarations about what she did and didn't do based on what they saw on TV. They not only remained uninformed about what she did propose, they insisted on remaining uninformed so they could repeat the same memes. I'm sorry, but I don't believe that is what people who care about issues and policy do.

The fact is most people don't vote based on issues. Political science research shows as much. They vote based on cultural signifiers. If Democrats didn't want to inform themselves on the GE candidates' issue positions and policies, what makes you think swing voters will?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #96)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 02:31 AM

105. I guess what irritates me about these Bernie threads is that

we're playing into the hands of Charlie Koch and the radical libertarian traitors by tearing each other apart. It's the old divide and conquer strategy, over and over and over and over. When will we learn?

As to Clinton, she didn't lose. The Democrats didn't lose. The Republicans are squatting illegally in power because of gerrymandering, voter suppression and treasonous collusion with Russia. Clinton got 2.9 million more votes than the despicable man now in the WH.

That, my friend, is what we need to fix before we lose this republic for good. Because Charlie Koch certainly doesn't give a shit about democracy. He wants unrestrained capitalism, and these idiots who support Trump want a twisted white nationalist theocracy. Together, these are the ingredients for a fascist dictatorship. This worries the hell out of me.

I changed my lifestyle, became vegan, started a regular exercise regime, and started practicing deep healing meditations. As I improved at meditation techniques, and began paying attention to my body, it was like when you get all uptight about something and don't even realize you're holding your breath. Then something happens to make you breathe out and you feel your whole body relax. That is what the stress of Trump has been like for me. I'm sure many on this site share that stress. The guy is a dangerous lunatic.

This is why I sigh every time I see someone Bernie-bash or Clinton-bash or cut down some Democrat. We need to get together and fight the good fight against voter suppression and gerrymandering. The Supreme Court voted along party lines to leave race based gerrymanders in place in Texas in September, and we now await the Wisconsin decision. This is another 'hold your breath' kind of thing. After all, look at Citizens United...

I guess what I'm saying is that we have more power than all these assholes who are trying to take our freedom, drain the treasury for their own profit and tear apart everything good this country has ever stood for. But the only way that power will work is if we come together and act together. They govern at our sufferance, and the laws only change when we put successful pressure on those who oppress us.

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Response to PatrickforO (Reply #105)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 03:03 AM

107. Hear hear. n/t

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Response to Beartracks (Reply #107)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 05:03 PM

213. +1000

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Response to PatrickforO (Reply #105)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 03:05 AM

109. Its the Mercers

Who are infinitely more dangerous than the Koch’s because they want to blow everything up and have the money to fund politicians all throughout the country to do it. Brannon is their point man.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #109)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 02:24 PM

181. But why? What is their motive? I can understand Koch - his motive is naked greed.

But why blow everything up? It's like those holy roller apocalypse people who think they are doing the right thing by hastening armageddon...is that it? Seeing which aspect of the god Jehovah is stronger - the Christian version or the Muslim version...well, that is a very dangerous experiment. Could kill us all.

(Primal scream!)

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Response to PatrickforO (Reply #181)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 02:44 PM

183. My understanding

is that they want a society in which there is virtually no government. They believe that human beings are only worthy in terms of the amount of money they make. I think they want a kind of survival of the fittest based on wealth. It's not about corporate interests. It's far more perverse.

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Response to PatrickforO (Reply #105)


Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #5)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 12:57 AM

92. yep. nt

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #5)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 04:19 AM

112. Um. Bernie is working to get Democrats elected.


And he is criticizing aspects of the Democratic party

And he is putting forth bills that might not pass, but need to be put forward to move the needle on "normal".

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #112)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 04:16 PM

199. so reasonable. Thank you.

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #5)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 06:08 AM

113. +1! eom

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #5)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 07:39 AM

124. right...allies just shut their trap and don't push for anything that is inconvenient. Lovely...that

 

is certainly the path to progress right there.

In a republican run government NOTHING democrats propose is a reality. Why not propose the good stuff and make republicans defend their decision to stand in the way of it? It makes no sense to put forward incremental proposals that are lost on the public and still won't get passed in a GOP led congress. Now that is futile. That is pointless. We need to shape the political landscape, not simply respond to it as the GOP shapes it.

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Response to JCanete (Reply #124)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 10:35 AM

147. Right. Except that has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that BS pisses people off with his

constant bashing of the Democratic party. It confuses those who are less informed about politics and turns them away from Democrats. Which in this day and age is a really, really destructive and dangerous thing to do.

Oh look! Is that an incoming nuclear warhead? Gosh! Who'da thought that constant baseless bashing of Democrats would have consequences?

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Response to Squinch (Reply #147)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 11:36 AM

157. Trump is in the White House because of systemic failings of our government which were enabled

 


mostly by the GOP but not wholly. our party, not those frustrated with it from the left, IS partly culpable for where we are today. Trump is hardly a fucking aberration. He's the natural progression from the likes of Herman Cain and Sarah Palin and Michele Bachman and Rick Perry. This is the republicans running further right and further insane in response to the democrats for decades trying to meet them at a right-shifting middle...because "political realities." That helped to shape those political realities. Thankfully we've started to shift back the other way, and I credit social networking and liberal media in that realm, for that trend, as fraught as it is.

The bashing of democrats, as you call it, is a convenient thing to try to blame Clinton's loss on, but there is no proof at all that Sanders or left-wing pundits got people to not vote for clinton. Most of Sanders voters turned out for Clinton .Sanders endorsed Clinton. Most of those liberals who refused to vote for her may have never intended to. Anecdotally it was the primary and its aftermath(well, and Trump) that made me confident enough to vote for Clinton. Until Clinton signaled that she had any interest in championing policies that were better than esoteric incrementals..until she signaled that she gave a crap about the near half of the democratic and liberal voting public's priorities, I was seriously considering abstaining. Of course I thought there was no way she could lose, and I live in California to boot, but "purity" never factored into that consideration. It was my very real concern that middling democratic policies are part of the reason we've lost 1000 seats. Uninspiring proposals and troubled ones that could have been unassailable if we'd only had the will to do them right(you know, the troubled ACA that passed on party lines and had no price controls?) are the reasons we lose. Letting some very bad policies and practices fly under the radar for years is why we lose. Being weak on voting machines and voter suppression for far too long is why we lose. Defending the news as fair and balanced even while it pretends to be liberal as it shills for even the scum of the earth like Trump over Clinton, is why we lose. And we've been losing for a long time now. You can hardly put all those seat losses at the feet of disaffected liberals.

How can our much smarter and more eloquent leaders continue to have their clocks cleaned so badly? Because they're fighting with both hands tied behind their backs,and they have helped do the tying.

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Response to JCanete (Reply #157)

Sun Oct 15, 2017, 06:50 AM

222. Excellent post

 

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #5)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 10:29 AM

142. + a brazillion

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #5)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 12:36 PM

163. The most important goal is winning the House in 2018.

Bernie's criticizing the Democrats does great harm to our chances.

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #5)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 12:44 PM

166. Preach!

 

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #5)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 04:26 PM

202. You don't have to be a fan.

Personally, I'm not a "fan" of any politician. That smacks of adolescent celebrity worship.

I do, though, support politicians who work for what I want, so I support Bernie.

And, frankly, he fucking DOES work to get Dems elected. That doesn't mean he, or we, or I, need to turn a blind eye to Democrats who are part of the problem instead of the solution. That kind of blind following is exactly what Trump's base does. We don't need to mirror THAT. It's democratic to be able to freely support AND criticize political leaders. Any supporter of democracy shouldn't be afraid of criticism. If the party doesn't want to be democratic, perhaps a name change is in order.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #202)

Sun Oct 15, 2017, 06:51 AM

223. +1000

 

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #5)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 04:45 PM

208. +100,000

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #1)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 08:49 PM

64. Sometimes I think people forget what the word Ally means

The UK is an American ally. California is an American state. California is part of the United States. The United Kingdom is not. The UK is "other" from the U.S. It is independent but aligned with us on most matters of importance. The UK does not answer to an oath of allegiance to the United States, except within the confines of negotiated treaties and then its allegiance is to the terms of that treaty, not to America as a political unit. So no, the UK is not unerringly loyal to America, we can have trade disputes between our nations for example. But the UK is a overall an important ally of the United States.

Senator Sanders is not a member of the Democratic Party, he is instead a close ally of the Democratic Party. The distinction is a real one and it also reflects the reality that many of the people who elect Democrats to office are themselves not Democrats, they are non party members, often Independents, who help put Democrats into power with their votes, if not their literal membership in the Democratic Party.

And it all boils down to this; Bernie Sanders is not a Democrat but he does caucus with Democrats in the Senate. That creates some treaty like bonds between him and his Democratic allies, such as an obligation to vote for a Democrat to be the Senate Majority leader.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Reply #64)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 10:01 PM

76. +1

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Reply #64)

Mon Oct 16, 2017, 02:07 AM

234. +1

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #1)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 09:31 AM

132. Susan's a monster

 

She's good friends with a man named Álvaro Noboa.

Look him up sometime.

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Response to DoubleAgentOrange (Reply #132)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 05:47 PM

216. I looked him up. This just reinforces the point I made about SS being a hypocrite. And yes, she's a

monster.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #1)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 03:07 PM

186. the lumping is yours

I'm sorry, but your attacks on Sarandon are not helping your cause. Sarandon has supported just causes her entire life and has lots of support. Dems who alienate people like Sarandon and her supporters are a big part of the problem. Either the Dem party is an inclusive organization that can allow dissent and free thinking, or it is not. If it is not, then it is doomed to fail.

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 05:43 PM

2. No, forgetting the past doesn't help the future.

 

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #2)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 05:47 PM

6. There's a big difference between living in the past and forgetting the past

 

Republicans, however, are skilled at both lol

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Response to elehhhhna (Reply #6)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 05:48 PM

8. I don't think we are living in the past when we diagnose what put us in the position we are in.

 

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #8)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 05:55 PM

12. +1

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #8)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:23 PM

27. From where I sit, what is going on is not a diagnosis.

It's playing the blame game and dwelling on the past. Is there any constructive criticism here?

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Response to janx (Reply #27)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 10:02 PM

77. Bingo. And no, none of its constructive.

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #8)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:27 PM

29. And it is happening AGAIN

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #2)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:04 PM

16. Yep. (nt)

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #2)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:52 PM

37. Exactly. The past needs to be examined. Only then we can aspire to win

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 05:43 PM

3. I'm glad you're not the boss here. There are places in the leftosphere where SS is celebrated. I...

hope DU never becomes one of them. She's a horrible person, and I never miss an opportunity to remind folks, lest history repeat itself.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #3)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 05:48 PM

7. I agree that she's a dumbass. Let's move on. Also,

 

I actually am the boss here



😉

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 05:51 PM

9. bernie is not an ally - he has a history of trashing the Democratic Party.

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Response to Lil Missy (Reply #9)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 05:53 PM

10. now now Lil Missy

we are supposed to swoon over him - he's a RENEGADE, not an OPPORTUNIST....or something like that

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Response to Lil Missy (Reply #9)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:09 PM

18. +1

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Response to Lil Missy (Reply #9)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:48 PM

33. +1000

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Response to Lil Missy (Reply #9)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 09:46 AM

134. You are correct. Imagine if the GOP were making the same smears and attacks...

... it wouldn't be acceptable for the GOP to say these things, so it should be acceptable for ANYONE to say them. (It's a double-standard.)

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Response to Lil Missy (Reply #9)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 12:43 PM

165. Thank you!

 

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Response to Lil Missy (Reply #9)

Sun Oct 15, 2017, 06:57 AM

224. Many of us have no interest in a Democratic Party that is above criticism

 

The version of the party that has thrown away control of the White House and both houses, endless governorships and state houses and senates, and god know what else right down to grassroots level absolutely deserves to be criticized in the strongest terms possible.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #224)

Sun Oct 15, 2017, 08:56 AM

225. Then why are you here? When you can trash the Party somewhere else?

A rhetorical question. I'm not curious why ....

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Response to Lil Missy (Reply #225)

Sun Oct 15, 2017, 09:07 AM

226. You don't represent the Democratic party just because your prefered candidate won the last primary

 

People who genuinely have the interests of a better party and America in mind are not afraid to constructively criticize when necessary and certainly don't end up hero worshipping individual politicians to the detriment of the wider party.

This current attempt to cajole, shame and bully people into agreeing with one particular view of where the party should be heading is frankly despicable, and worse its being done using Trump as cover. Apparently if we disagree with you we're helping Trump and we should be exiled.

This is how we ended up in the current mess in the first place, years of people being told their voices in the party don't matter, years of any opposing views being denigrated and trashed, and the worst part is that now when the GOP own it all, you still can't see the error of your ways.

There are people here that care more about getting an apology from Sarandon supporters than they do about organizing to fight back against the GOP. There are people here that post more vitriol about Bernie Sanders than they do about the right wing scum trying to destroy the country.

The ONLY thing that matters now is beating the GOP, and we don't do that unless this stupid clique-like behavior ends now. We have to start to listen when people speak instead of assuming they're wrong because they have a different perspective. If not, we'll all be back here in November 2020 crying and wailing about how we don't understand why we lost again.

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 05:54 PM

11. I'm guilty of being one of the scolders and there is a lesson.

I'm one of those campaign volunteer types who donate my personal time to elect democrats. So you can imagine my disappointment from the thumping we took nationally last November and the sting I feel daily from the repercussions of the results. In our state, we won. We worked hard for it and we briefly gave up our personal lives for it. Local democratic candidates won, we won our senatorial race and HRC won our state.

So yeah, I have a bit of fury in my gut at all the tragedy being inflicted by republiturds and anyone who enabled them. I would have supported either candidate, which I think is the point from all the scolding and gripes. We're stronger together.

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Response to ffr (Reply #11)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:18 PM

23. And good for you for doing so!

But it has been almost a YEAR. The same thing has happened in elections past--the arguing in the GD Primaries forum, followed by a lost national election, etc.. People continued the arguments in the GD forum, as they do now. But there comes a time when it should stop and people should look to the future, don't you think?

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Response to janx (Reply #23)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 07:26 PM

44. Thats what people said about Nader. Move on, its not like it will happen again...

 

Enter Stein and people who couldn’t get over that their candidate lost in the primaries...

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #44)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 07:39 PM

49. The analogy of Stein to Nader is hard for me to accept.

Nader had been around for quite some time, while Stein was a relative newcomer. Also, the havoc that Nader created in the Bush/Gore election wasn't comparable to what happened last year. I appreciate your comparison on one level, but I just can't appreciate Jill Stein in the same light. YES, it was the same kind of mindset on the part of some voters, and some voters who voted for him voted for Stein. And YES, some disaffected Sanders voters no doubt caused a ripple. This is not to say that candidates like these should be ignored. But I honestly think that although Clinton was clearly the best qualified to be president, other factors worked against her.



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Response to janx (Reply #49)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 07:43 PM

51. That makes it worse, dont you think?

 

Stein is a moron who couldn’t govern her way out of a paper bag.

Nader had many problems, but he wasn’t a complete moron and he had well thought out policy positions. Stein didn’t even have any of those things. A vote for her was beyond stupid.

Yet here we are.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #51)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 12:48 PM

167. It makes the situation worse only if you assume that

Stein caused Clinton to lose the election.

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Response to janx (Reply #167)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 01:17 PM

175. There is nothing to assume, she did. Just like Nader in 2000.

 

There are other factors that caused it too. Any one of them being removed and Clinton wins.

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Response to janx (Reply #49)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 01:04 PM

171. Stein is worse! She's a Russian spy for crap sakes!

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 05:57 PM

13. Maybe we need a forum where people who want to engage in divisive rabble rousing can go and leave


GD to people who want to discuss issues. Problem is people have only one forum to engage in and that GD. Maybe say can talk in GD about Bernie v. Hillary can only talk in identified forum.

So tired of the absolute mess GD is. Duplicates, lots of snarky click bait posts - harder to have discussion and take away meaningful information.

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Response to Justice (Reply #13)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:01 PM

15. You want a forum where people can talk about Bernie v. Hillary?

There used to be a forum like that, if I remember correctly.

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Response to janx (Reply #15)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 04:37 PM

206. I want GD to be a forum where issues are discussed and not a constant snarky fight.

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Response to Justice (Reply #206)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 04:54 PM

211. I understand and agree with you.

When the GD Primaries forum shuts down after every primary season, some people just can't stop fighting. They are not supposed to do so in the regular General Discussion forum, but they do so anyway. It's a drag.

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Response to Justice (Reply #13)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:16 PM

21. Sounds as if you have trouble resisting the urge to click on those "snarky click bait posts".

That sounds like a case of poor impulse control on your part, if your true ambition is "meaningful" discussion.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #21)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 04:36 PM

205. Do you feel good insulting people anonymously?

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Response to Justice (Reply #205)


Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 05:59 PM

14. ...s/he scolded.

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Response to Iggo (Reply #14)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 12:15 AM

85. .

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:06 PM

17. Recommended.

And, as some of the responses show, more reminders such as this are needed.

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:11 PM

19. Bernie and Sarandon did not cause Secretary Clinton's loss last November...

Their effect was barely noticeable. It was the DIRECT targeting of specific states and districts by the Russian Federation's black ops.

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Response to Dennis Donovan (Reply #19)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 07:12 PM

40. I disagree. HRC had the election won--decisively--until Comey intervened to rig the race.

And she accomplished that in spite of Comey's earlier rigging of the race back in July.

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Response to Dennis Donovan (Reply #19)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 08:40 PM

63. Stein got 31,000 votes in WI

The Dotard "won" WI by 23,000 votes. Sarandon actively advocated 3rd party voting.

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Response to Dennis Donovan (Reply #19)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 01:10 AM

97. Respectfully disagree. Bernie's and Stein's continued presence made it okay to go renegade

and offered a rationale to remain divided. Gave enough people a reason and justification not to unite.

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Response to calimary (Reply #97)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 02:02 AM

103. Which the Russians intentionally stoked through their psyops.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #103)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 03:07 AM

110. YES. For those who didn't vote for Hillary? Okay, then.

That means they swallowed whatever shit was served by all those nice friendly little bots. And they did exactly what Putin told you to do. And then the same crowd will crow like flocks of roosters about those who don't "properly" salute the flag at football games.

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Response to calimary (Reply #110)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 12:42 PM

164. Some of them object to the kneeling

but not all. They aren't all self-identified conservatives.

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Response to calimary (Reply #97)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 07:37 AM

123. I think the evidence is strong that Bernie did not cost Hillary the race.

 

A good summary here: "Did Bernie Sanders Cost Hillary Clinton the Presidency?"

An additional point that the article overlooks is that Bernie's campaign brought into the political process many people who had previously dismissed the process or had been alienated. When Bernie wasn't nominated, some of them returned to their previous disengagement and sat out the general election, but those are votes Hillary wouldn't have gotten anyway. It seems certain that some of the people newly galvanized by Bernie's campaign then voted, however unenthusiastically, for Hillary.

I frankly can't see the "made it okay to go renegade" argument. Bernie's "continued presence" was his campaigning for Hillary. He dismayed some of his supporters, who had wanted him to endorse Stein or even run as a Green himself. It's not plausible to say that by campaigning for Hillary he made it okay to vote for Stein. (And I can only imagine what Hillary would have said in her book if Bernie had instead decided not to inflict his "continued presence" on the nation.)

There are some informative numbers here: "What really happened in 2016, in 7 charts". A salient feature of the 2016 election was that both major parties nominated historically unpopular candidates. The result was that minor-party voting approximately tripled, from 1.7% to 5.7%. Yes, Stein nearly tripled her vote over 2012, but Johnson more than tripled his vote. The Green Party increase wasn't because of Bernie's campaign. It also wasn't because, over the course of four years, Stein had improved her image with the American people. If Stein had decided not to run, the Greens would have nominated someone else who would have done about as well.

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Response to calimary (Reply #97)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 08:05 AM

125. "a rationale to remain divided" I fiind that phrase ironic in the current context

"Bernie's and Stein's continued presence..." You mean after July until the November election? Would you rather that Bernie had gone radio silent and refused to endorse Hillary and campaign for her? Or do you mean he should have gone away before we nominated Hillary? Or never ran against her in the first place?

Some of the most shrill voices deploring the lack of party unity in 2016 were P.U.M.A.s for Hillary in 2008.

There are Green party voters in every election. If anything it was the Libertarians luring away millennial voters from voting Democratic that hurt our chances. Why no mention of Johnson and Weld? They got 5 times the votes that Stein got.

Over 13 million people voted for Bernie in the Democratic primaries. I find every post that focuses on how Sanders supposedly helped cost Hillary Clinton the presidency "a rationale to remain divided".

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Response to Dennis Donovan (Reply #19)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 10:23 AM

138. Thank you

 

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:13 PM

20. 2000 . . . 2004 . . . 2016 . . . 20?? . . . Who will be the next election saboteur?

When will we learn not to give them credibility?

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Response to NBachers (Reply #20)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:19 PM

24. Exactly. n/t

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Response to NBachers (Reply #20)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 08:58 PM

66. They would have sabotaged 2012 if they got half a chance.

But voters remembered the cluster screw Obama cleaned up from Bush. Obama 2008 and 2012 was just too strong for them.

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:20 PM

25. Thanks for your calls for unity!

 

Viva la vida UNITED!

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:21 PM

26. In complete agreement

I try to ignore them because they serve no purpose except venting.

The only thing these posts can possibly do is drive wedges between people.

I was all for Bernie and voted for him in the primary. He lost Texas big.

I then voted for Hillary even though I knew the angle of attack they’d take. She lost and disaster is here.

We all need to focus on getting as many Republicans out of office as possible. That needs to be the ongoing focus from here on in. We cannot afford disunity.
Squabbling just wastes energy and creates hard feelings.



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Response to Moral Compass (Reply #26)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 04:05 AM

111. Couldn't have said it better MC.

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:53 PM

38. DURec

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 06:54 PM

39. Uh oh

it is your turn. The paddle chair is over there. --------->

Show me your photo of your ballot, surely you took a photo so you could prove yourself.

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Response to MuseRider (Reply #39)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 10:28 AM

140. You're being sarcastic, right?

 

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Response to elehhhhna (Reply #140)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 11:11 AM

152. Oh yes. :-)

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Response to MuseRider (Reply #152)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 11:19 AM

153. Whew. This thread is brutal.

 

Sorry not sorry to have started it.

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Response to elehhhhna (Reply #153)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 11:32 AM

156. It is brutal as was the other.

At this point I can just be saddened and oddly amused by it all. This feels very McCarthy. Hey let's blackball everyone who does not agree or at least does not ask for forgiveness. Creepy, authoritarian behavior.

Really, the problem is all theirs. I simply do not understand the need to do this. This is a DU thing I suppose, I hope. Sometimes this place feels really nuts.

When did we lose sight of the fact that if we lose it is OUR fault. Not the fault of others who found what they wanted elsewhere? We need to provide what is good in a manner they understand not take them down and neener neener the hell out of them. I think most of us cannot comprehend a vote for Trump under any circumstances but the fact is he won. There was lots of bad stuff interfering and helping him (my obligatory statement so I do not have to come back and see all the crap you get if you do not make sure everyone knows that you do not in any way, shape or form think it was all or even mostly Hillary's fault) but the most horrible human being on the planet came close enough to steal it. It was herculean for sure to manage that but it was still doable so what do we do about this? We blame everyone else and try to make them pay penance. Yup, that is how you win the next election.

Sorry you did not know that I was being sarcastic. I was trying to be amusing as well as supportive. At least you know now.

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 07:12 PM

41. I have nothing against Bernie, he did everything right

But I will never stop my scolding of idiots like Sarandon, who has yet to apologize for anything she said.

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #41)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 08:06 PM

57. Sorry, but he made many mistakes and it cost us.

 

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Response to coolsandy (Reply #57)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 09:01 PM

67. He went away and did not campaign for Hillary.

He took things to the convention with him having no chance of changing any outcome. He attacked traditional Democratic groups. The list is long. I won't forget.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #67)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 09:08 PM

70. he campaigned for hc

https://www.newyorker.com/news/amy-davidson/bernie-sanderss-hard-fight-for-hillary-clinton

As Sanders finished his speech in Raleigh—“We have to do everything that we can to elect Secretary Clinton!”—Clinton and Pharrell were on their feet, cheering. “Wow!” Clinton said, when she took to the rostrum. “Whew! I gotta say, after hearing from these two extraordinary men, I feel all fired up and ready to go for the next five days!” She knew what it was like to run against Sanders. Having him on her side was “a lot more fun.” A few hours later, Sanders was off on his own to Iowa. Trump is ahead in that state, in the latest average of polls, by about two and a half points. Sanders had three events scheduled for Friday—Cedar Falls, Iowa City, Davenport. On Saturday, there would be more.

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Response to questionseverything (Reply #70)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 09:39 PM

73. He sat out August, September, early October.

Hillary was on the trail for Obama as soon as she conceded. Don't use the excuse that some PUMAs didn't vote for Obama, it would have been much worse if Hillary did not come out swinging for him. I was a Hillary backer in that primary of 2008. I was pissed at Obama, but when Hillary made a strong case for him when she conceded, I jumped on his wagon bigtime.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #73)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 03:07 PM

187. Your statement is false.

 

In an earlier thread, I provided a bunch of links about Bernie's energetic campaigning for Hillary. I can't quickly find that and I don't care enough to repeat the research. Other people provided links, too.

Just a couple that I quickly found today:

"Bernie Sanders Campaigns for Hillary Clinton, Blasts Trump as 'Pathological Liar'" (September 5)

"Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren to campaign for Hillary Clinton in Ohio this weekend" (September 15)

You didn't provide a link for your assertion because you couldn't. You couldn't provide a link because your assertion is false.

I'm just curious -- do you people ever bother to do any checking about these attacks? or do you just say "Ooooooh, another criticism of Bernie Sanders, let's run with it whether or not it's true"?

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #187)

Sun Oct 15, 2017, 10:27 AM

228. I watched the general close. Bernie was not there for Hillary

like she was for Obama. That is simple truth.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #73)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 03:51 PM

194. BULLSHIT. (there is this thing called Google that will help you with this kind of thing)

He announced his campaign for Hillary in early August.


Here he is campaigning for her on Sept 5 in New Hampshire.


Bernie Sanders campaigns for Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton on Sept. 5, 2016 in Lebanon, N. H.

He made three stops here in Iowa the first week in October.

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Response to progressoid (Reply #194)

Sun Oct 15, 2017, 10:32 AM

229. Four stops? WOW.

I am impressed. I watched the fall race and wondered where was Bernie and his big crowds. He did nothing for her, she had to fight the race on her own while Berniebots viciously attacked her and called her all types of evil.

Hillary did not get all the PUMAs to let go of their venom, but I can promise you that if she did little in 2008 and did not challenge her supporters worst instincts, Obama may have well lost.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #229)

Sun Oct 15, 2017, 11:39 AM

230. There were many more than four stops.

 

It's just that no one feels like combing Google (or, in my case, duckduckgo.com) to compile a complete schedule of Bernie's campaign appearances. For this reluctance there are good reasons:
1. Posts in previous threads have, as I mentioned in #187, provided more links to his numerous appearances.
2. In this thread, questionseverything, progressoid, and I have given you several links.
3. We have already demonstrated conclusively that your statement in the very subject line of #73 was false, yet you betray not the slightest recognition of that fact.
4. You just keep making assertions without providing one goddam link of your own.

What follows from the above is that you have settled on yet another Bernie Is Evil thesis and no amount of mere evidence is going to change your mind.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #229)

Sun Oct 15, 2017, 12:07 PM

231. Wow. Two people show you that your statement was wrong and you stick by your delusion.

There were a lot more than just four (I simply included Iowa because I remembered those - I was volunteering for Hillary's campaign here at the time). Remember here on DU, when the 'I-hate-everything-about-Bernie-club' was chiding him for no longer flying coach to campaign for her? Good times.

Since you don't seem to like facts, here's another one. A higher percentage of Bernie voters voted for Hillary last year than Hillary voters did for Obama in '08.

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Response to progressoid (Reply #231)

Sun Oct 15, 2017, 02:55 PM

232. Oh yeah, two people decide everything. New concept to me.

I watched the general closely and became concerned about Bernie's lack of support in mid-September. He did little. Even if he got the fawners to show up to big rallies to explains why voting third party in a close election is stupid, that would have been helpful. But it did not happen.

I knew someone would bring up the wet comfort blanket of the percentage of Bernie 2016 voters versus Hillary 2008 voters. And that statistic is meaningless in context of the two elections. Republicans were coming off Bush and were in chaos in 2008, Obama also had the new message. And Obama still did not win by the margin that he should have, even as he pounded McCain. Hillary provided the safe, comfortable margin for Obama. 2016 was a pure margin race, Trump had the new message be that hate or whatever. Hillary could have used margin gained from Bernie cooling his people off by campaigning for and with Hillary and even holding her hand on many stages if that worked. But Bernie did the absolute minimum and did little to call the hardcore of his people off, saying stuff that he could not think for them - he could not think for them, but he could have done a lot by actively calling out the worse of them. He did little. Now we have his My Revolution talking about voting for republicans. What republican in the last 17 years has been sane?

Sorry, I witness the election and even saw liberal commetators asking where was Bernie. I won't forget.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #232)

Sun Oct 15, 2017, 06:30 PM

233. Maybe you don't like the Google. There's also Yahoo, Bing, Duckduckgo, etc. to refresh your memory.

You said, "Hillary could have used margin gained from Bernie cooling his people off by campaigning for and with Hillary and even holding her hand on many stages if that worked."

Well, that happened too.

Here they are in Portsmouth NH in July...



And again in September...



North Carolina in November



Oooh, Here's a bonus pic of Bernie and Elizabeth Warren campaigning for her in Denver in September...


It's sort of understandable if you didn't know this because the media was focused on Donnie and his crap most of the time.


Donald Trump succeeded in shaping the election agenda. Coverage of Trump overwhelmingly outperformed coverage of Clinton. Clinton’s coverage was focused on scandals, while Trump’s coverage focused on his core issues.



Attempts by the Clinton campaign to define her campaign on competence, experience, and policy positions were drowned out by coverage of alleged improprieties associated with the Clinton Foundation and emails. Coverage of Trump associated with immigration, jobs, and trade was greater than that on his personal scandals.



...https://cyber.harvard.edu/publications/2017/08/mediacloud



But if you want to ignore these...ya know...facts, and wallow in resentment; then enjoy your umbrage.





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Response to progressoid (Reply #233)

Tue Oct 17, 2017, 12:16 AM

236. You are really working hard on this.

Four events over close to four months. WOW, I am floored, absolutely floored. Clinton made a difference for Obama, Bernie did not help her.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #236)

Tue Oct 17, 2017, 01:35 AM

238. Not working nearly as hard as you are at avoiding your own statements.


While I'd love to continue bursting your bubbles, I gotta hit the road for a couple weeks. Enjoy your righteous umbrage.

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 07:25 PM

43. Great minds discuss ideas

Average minds discuss events.
Small minds discuss people.

- Eleanor Roosevelt

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 07:31 PM

45. yeah i agree.. sarandon is not someone we want to defend....

...PISSED off as I am over the treatment of my candidate.. we have to BE STRONGER TOGETHER.....as long as our side nominates a sane, inclusive, non cult-y, respectful candidate then I am 100% behind that person...as we all have to be.

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 07:33 PM

46. 17 years ago, I got a pound of flesh cut out of me for voting Nader

so you can bet your ass I'm putting some people on the chopping block after they helped elect someone a thousand times worse than George Bush Jr.

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Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #46)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 09:02 PM

68. Trump makes Shrub look like Einstein. nt

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 07:38 PM

48. Totally agree.

Last edited Fri Oct 13, 2017, 09:36 PM - Edit history (1)

I don't even open anything that says Stein or Saradon in the headline.

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Response to zentrum (Reply #48)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 08:33 PM

62. Same here.

You gotta wonder why these people want to keep dividing.

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Response to SalviaBlue (Reply #62)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 09:37 PM

71. Yup.

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 07:42 PM

50. Don't blame me.

My candidate was cut off at the knees as an apparent rube who had no idea. Yeah. Couldn't break through the noise. So I swallowed deep and worked for our nominee.

Who was that you might ask?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_O%27Malley




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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 07:46 PM

52. Wow! 60 recc's in less than 2 hours!

 

Wow! Viva la vida UNITED!

elehhhhna
0. Enough with the scolding please.

Example:

Venomous posts yelling at random people on DU for allegedly not supporting Hillary Clinton . Blah blah blah Susan Sarandon. Blah blah Bernie.

We come here to avoid divisive rabble rousing like that, and living in the past doesn't help the future.


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Response to Madam45for2923 (Reply #52)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 09:03 PM

69. You reminded me, I forgot to rec the OP. nt

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 07:47 PM

53. Call it like you see it.

 

If you want to blame someone, anyone, or no one for something, that's fine. I don't share that view, but many people believe "scolding" will help prevent a recurrence. I think the opposite, and I feel a lively primary is good for us, or would be if we knew how to play it. We expected little opposition to Hillary, and we expected Sanders to be crushed pretty early. We got disoriented when that didn't happen. We need to be better and smarter, so maybe we could talk about how to do that instead of expecting everything to go our way all the time. Or not. Up to the individual.

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Response to Philistein (Reply #53)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 01:21 AM

98. Welcome to DU, Philistein.

I don't think we can afford to forget about it, or drop it, and assume we can or should just move on. Reading through threads like this takes me directly to that old saying: "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it." A famous cliche is NOT a famous cliche for no reason.


Subject: Re: Who said "Those Who Forget History Are Doomed to Repeat It"?
Answered By: pinkfreud-ga on 15 Mar 2005 18:38 PST
Rated:5 out of 5 stars
This saying appears in many different forms, but the earliest version
is probably that of the poet and philosopher George Santayana: "Those
who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

"Notable Quotations from George Santayana
'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.'
Life of Reason, Reason in Common Sense, Scribner's, 1905, page 284"

Collecting and Editing the Works of George Santayana
http://www.iupui.edu/~santedit/


http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=495329

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 07:49 PM

55. Some people want to keep fighting over the past

We need to unite to fight the GOP in 2018 and 2020.

Sometimes I wonder if there are GOP trolls at work?

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Reply #55)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 10:30 AM

143. Magic eight ball says yes

 

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 07:57 PM

56. Well I gotta disagree a bit

because i would personally like to take a baseball bat to everyone who used some sad ass excuse to vote against Hillary and stick us with the most destructive, incompetent, vile, wastrel since Caligula.
We will have 2 members of our family lose health care and one perhaps DIE. That is DIE as in forever......
extinct............ non refundable.
Sorry if the reminder is is annoying, but read this again and maybe it will help.

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Response to MFM008 (Reply #56)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 01:32 AM

99. Amen.

To those who insist that they were just so pissed off that they wanted to "burn it all down" so they went with the moron over an exponentially superior but sinfully slandered alternative, I'd ask - "did you ever stop to think how having to LIVE in the ashes, destruction, and utter chaos after you voted to 'burn it all down' would work out for ya?"

Seems to me, if we don't compel ourselves to reach the grok point on this (with apologies to Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land" ), we're very likely to make the same or similar mistake in the future.

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 08:08 PM

58. The enemy of my friend is my enemy...

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 08:17 PM

59. Against DU rules, now I believe...

naughty DUers

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Response to yuiyoshida (Reply #59)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 08:54 PM

65. The opposite, actually, according to the admins.

 

The admins have about as much love for people who didn't vote for Hillary in the General Election as I do.

And that is to say, none at all.

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 08:30 PM

61. K and Highly RECOMMEND

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 09:48 PM

75. Lol. Skinner himself said people who didn't support Hillary weren't welcome here. Deal with it.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/125912898#post1

SKinner
1. This site only welcomes people who voted for HRC in the GE.

Trump-enabling morons can find some other website.

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Response to MrsCoffee (Reply #75)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 06:46 AM

119. Closing the tent around you is the best way to lose...

.. while you comfort each other inside, and blame the rest of the world for everything. But since I am not allowed to vote anyway, I should just go away now. Those people in the USA looks like a very unfriendly bunch - but then I remember all the good ones there too .

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Response to TomVilmer (Reply #119)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 11:19 AM

154. What a bunch of condescending bullshit.

There are people in charge of this country actually trying to kill us, but you go on preaching about that big tent of unfriendly people in the Democratic party. Let's not talk about how we got here or who or what might have actually been to blame. Let's just defend those who decided that not supporting Hillary Clinton was the best thing for "those people in the USA". Talk about the best way to lose...

That's some not so clever snark there.

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Response to MrsCoffee (Reply #154)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 12:29 PM

161. Are you rambling about DU or the contry?

Outside the tent, USA is normally quite eqully split into three main groups for party identification - Democrat, Republican and Independent. Without votes from the last group, when only preaching for your very own kind of people, no victory. So good luck with that "strategy".


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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 10:11 PM

78. I have to agree its time to move on and focus our energy on winning rather

than continuing to play the blame game.

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 10:32 PM

80. I Recced it cause it's a never ending shitstorm

We all have our opinions about 2016, and we probably posted them dozens of times already. Take another toke bro/sister.

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Fri Oct 13, 2017, 11:00 PM

81. Nobody has to be a Bernie "fan."

but the venom from some of the posters here is almost as bad as right wing noise.. Vilifying Sanders, how sad that this makes some of our so called fellow liberals so gleeful? We are literally fighting for our lives here.

Get over yourselves with the Bernie hate already. Isn't there enough hate and bullshit happening on a daily basis with this fucking moron president and the cabinet from hell?
But, somehow, some can still find hate in their hearts for one of the most outspoken and consistant liberals in my lifetime.

I do wonder if the animosity towards Bernie Sanders is about the fact that he's a common man, not a millionaire and relates to people working paycheck to paycheck and the idealistic young. The widening gap between rich and poor is the root of every problem, and corporate cash in politics perpetuates it.

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Response to mountain grammy (Reply #81)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 12:13 AM

84. So I guess you won't be doing that stopping scolding thing then...

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Response to mountain grammy (Reply #81)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 06:39 AM

117. "Not a millionaire"? How do you know that? According to Wiki, he made over a million $$ in 2016.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #117)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 09:47 AM

135. As long as you've identified the enemy and he is Bernie Sanders.

that's all that counts.. Maybe if he's finally a millionaire, he'll be welcome in the Democratic establishment.

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Response to mountain grammy (Reply #135)

Sun Oct 15, 2017, 02:36 AM

220. "Democratic establishment"? Well, now I know exactly where you're coming from. Thanks.




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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #220)

Mon Oct 16, 2017, 12:57 PM

235. You know, I don't know why I used that word establishment because I don't like it..

I think it's a broad brush that's overused and silly and I apologize for letting it sneak into my narrative.

I was unhappy with the DNC leadership since Howard Dean left. I think Perez and Ellison are an improvement. I admire their honesty and willingness to listen to everyone and I hope they can unite us. I honestly can't understand why we're divided when we all pretty much stand for the same principles. That's where I'm coming from. Thanks.

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Response to mountain grammy (Reply #81)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 01:44 PM

179. Bernie is a millionnaire

He is, in fact, a millionaire, owns three homes, does in fact, relate to the common man because he grew up poor, very good on the economic issues, but, and this is a big but, he despises the women and minorities who comprise the Democratic base. We know when we are loved (Clinton I, Obama, Clinton II, Carter, Gore) all had love for us. Bernie couldn't help every once in a while letting his contempt leak through ("Low information voter". How the hell he didn't realize that saying "don't vote for a woman just because she is a woman" was not a dog whistle for every woman and minority who's had to knock down the idea that she got where she is on merit is beyond me. If he didn't know or care that he smashed a highly competent woman candidate, and those who loved her, then he is less than the ideal candidate to carry the flag for us.

Having said that, Bernie is a good man, intelligent, and a good candidate. Let's see if he can repair some of the damages and unite us. This is not re-hashing the election ... this is looking towards the next one.

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Response to MaryMagdaline (Reply #179)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 03:01 PM

185. Bookmarking. n/t

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 12:12 AM

83. It's terrible that citizens think they have the right to say anything

and get away with it. Someone should really do something about that.

Your OP might have a point if you stopped with Bernie (not that I'd agree, but it would at least make some sense), but including Sarandon assumes a unity with the people who voted to put Trump in office. Meanwhile, you express no objection to the plethora of posts demanding that one Democrat after another be primaried.

Of course you could simply trash threads you didn't like, but that wouldn't satisfy the more important goal of controlling speech and thought. You're not interested in unity. What you want is to create a space where no one is allowed to post anything that you disagree with.

Oh, and Fuck Susan Sarandon. She and those like her chose to inflict suffering and death on the poor and the vulnerable, and Sarandon has said she enjoys the "energy" that comes from such extreme privation and anxiety. I will not be "unified" around a sick enjoyment from poverty, deportation, death, and nuclear war. You can continue to lead the great and noble cause of ensuring multimillionaire Trump humpers like Sarandon be subject to no criticism. I don't share your priorities or your values. But then I'm a Democrat. I prefer to unite around the Democratic Party and Democratic values rather than reverence for the super rich who actively promoted the election of an unstable narcissist and fascist. Trump just condemned millions of low- and middle-income Americans to illness and death through executive order today, and he stands poised to launch a nuclear war. But you keep your priorities on ensuring Sarandon not be subject to criticism. We all have our priorities.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #83)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 12:21 AM

88. Very well said.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #83)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 10:34 AM

144. Tell me where I suggested that Susan Sarandon is some kind of hero or anything other than a dip shit

 

I am not saying we should go well Kumbaya about Susan and Bernie or Jill Stein. I am suggesting we need to fucking move on.

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Response to elehhhhna (Reply #144)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 12:31 PM

162. You demanded no one criticize Sarandon

You insisted "unity" required not doing so, and that "we don't come here for that crap." You said, "blah, blah, blah Bernie. Blah, blah, blah Sarandon." You were very clear. You didn't preach Kumbayah. You demanded silence, submission.

You made clear that you see Sarandon's infallibility as more important than the free speech of Democrats. You insisted we should unify around a person, Sarandon, who actively worked to defeat the Democratic nominee and has continued to express delight at the impact of the Trump's policies.

My original post stands. You want to banish speech that doesn't echo your likes and dislikes. There is NOTHING in your post that speaks to unity. If you had any intention of promoting unity you would have included some Democrats. You voice no objection to the attacks on Pelosi, Harris, Feinstein, or any other Democratic. You point to people you consider part of your tribe and insist they be held immune from criticism and the majority of Democrats need to acquiesce.

You go ahead and unify around one side in a long-resolved primary and pretend that involves "moving on." it's transparently false. I will unify around Democrats, not Trump humpers like Sarandon. Nor will I submit to the continual string of demands, of which yours is but one, to hold certain rich people from criticism. That is not my value system, and I will not be following orders. I try to hold my tongue on Sanders, but Sarandon can rot in hell, which is nothing compared to what she inflicted on the poor, marginalized, and global population that now exists in fear of nuclear annihilation--all so she can enjoy the "energy" from privation and terror.





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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 12:15 AM

86. You see from this thread why the pointless scolding goes on and on and on.

 

There's a strong bash-Bernie contingent on DU. They have to get their daily fix of condemning Bernie Sanders and giving enthusiastic "+1!!" responses to each other's posts.

Does it help us elect Democrats in 2017 and 2018? No, it does not. Does it help us move forward to overcome the divisions of the primary contest? No, it does not.

Will it therefore stop? No, it will not.

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #86)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 12:20 AM

87. And you aren't doing that stopping scolding thing either, I see.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #87)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 01:33 AM

100. I wasn't scolding. I responded to the OP and I was commiserating. (n/t)

 

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #100)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 10:12 AM

137. Uh huh. Point that finger back at yourself.

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #86)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 12:38 AM

90. I would love

to never post or think about Bernie again.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #90)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 01:34 AM

101. Then you should change your password.

 

Some hacker has gotten hold of it, logged in as you, and posted about Bernie in this very thread.

Hacking is generally bad, but I must admit I agree with the hacker that "Of course you could simply trash threads you didn't like...."

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #101)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 01:44 AM

102. Actually I posted about Susan Sarandon

and I'm going to hazard a guess that you share the OP's determination that multimillionaires like her not be questioned by mere citizens. I can't help notice that the claims of resentment of the 1 percent have been replaced by demands that certain extremely wealthy people never be questioned or even fact checked. Of course, I suppose that goes hand in hand with a conception of "working class" focused on those making 2-12 times the median income and that excludes low- to median-wage workers.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #102)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 06:55 AM

120. Sorry to disappoint you but your hazarded guess is wrong.

 

You write, "I'm going to hazard a guess that you share the OP's determination that multimillionaires like her not be questioned by mere citizens." That's a WHOLE lot of extrapolation from what I actually wrote -- and, not surprisingly, it's wrong. In one of the other hatefests, I wrote, "'Susan Sarandon supported Jill Stein and that was a mistake' is true."

You see, there are alternatives in between "Sarandon should not be questioned by mere citizens" and "Sarandon must be denounced every day on DU." It's possible to say that Sarandon made a mistake, and, having said it, move on. It's also possible to believe that, from the point of view of electing Democrats, the incessant dumping on Sarandon accomplishes nothing and is in fact counterproductive. Going out on a limb here, it's even possible to say, as I did in that linked thread, that (a) Sarandon made a mistake, and (b) telling malicious lies about her is wrong.

And, actually, someone using your name had, in this very thread, made three separate posts that were, to some extent, negative about Bernie Sanders. And, please, don't go off on this tangent that anyone who disagrees with you is trying to dictate what you can or cannot say. The proliferation of DU posts bashing Bernie makes clear that such criticism is permitted here. I'm merely pointing out that, while you have posted about Sarandon, you have in fact also posted about Bernie.

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #120)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 10:28 AM

139. I'm just fine with sarandon being denounced often. Sarandon DID make a mistake. That mistake

has resulted in a trump presidency.

And it's not the first time she made that very same mistake of pushing the third party and undermining the Democrats during an election they lost by a slim margin.

So it seems either she does not learn from her mistakes, or her actual intentions are to make sure the Democrat is not elected.

And it seems that some here NEED constant reminders of her destructiveness because THEY don't learn from their mistakes. We know this because they keep defending her actions as a one-off mistake that won't happen again and really not that big a deal. Then they suggest that to say otherwise is a "malicious lie." Crazy, right? Can't make this shit up.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #139)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 12:22 PM

160. I'm pretty sure...

the political talking shows scan political blogs like DU and Kos for people's names to make their casting decisions. So every time you mention Ms. Sarandon you help keep her relevant. If you parse what I am saying it is not defending her in the least it is a suggestion if you would like to get her off the political shows.
I think Ms. Sarandon is a great actress and a political dilatant. She weighs in in things she clearly doesn't understand. It seems as though it has been so long since she wanted for any material thing she can't understand that point of view.
If you need to spit her name every day it's you who is giving her undeserved power.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #139)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 12:56 PM

169. You're right that people do tell malicious lies on DU.

 

In this instance, in the thread I linked, the malicious lie was that Susan Sarandon runs a sweatshop. No link, no statement of what supported the charge, no elaboration of details -- just the smear. It came with a side order of hypocrisy, because it was in a thread in which several DUers stridently insisted that any negative comment about someone they liked must be supported with facts. Those posters did not apply the same standard to a negative comment about someone they disliked.

You write that Sarandon's support of Stein "has resulted in a trump presidency." That's very dubious. There were celebrities supporting each of the leading candidates. Without hard supporting data, I see no reason to believe that this one celebrity endorsement was enough to flip scores of thousands of votes from Clinton to Stein.

Now we come to your bell-ringer:

And it seems that some here NEED constant reminders of her destructiveness because THEY don't learn from their mistakes. We know this because they keep defending her actions as a one-off mistake that won't happen again and really not that big a deal. Then they suggest that to say otherwise is a "malicious lie." Crazy, right? Can't make this shit up.


This "won't happen again" is about Sarandon's future conduct. I personally haven't seen a single post purporting to be from Sarandon, or from a spokesperson for her, or from someone claiming enough knowledge about her to say whom she'll endorse in 2020. I don't read every post on DU so I'll just have to take your word for it that there have been such posts.

As for "really not that big a deal," yes, there are several of us who think that looking at actual numbers is more productive than venting spleen and who think that Sarandon didn't have much influence on the outcome. To say otherwise is not a malicious lie, however, and I of course never said it was. It's a judgment about a counterfactual hypothetical (if Sarandon had endorsed Clinton, would Clinton have become President?). Inherently, therefore, we can never know for sure. I can't prove that, even with Sarandon's endorsement, Clinton would not have become President, any more than I could prove that about Jon Voigt (although I thought his narration of Trump's video was very well done and probably helped Trump more than anything Sarandon did). Because we can't know for sure, it's not a malicious lie. It's just a pretty dim-witted political judgment.

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #169)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 01:28 PM

178. Past is prologue

She supported Nader in the last several elections. She always supports independents or third party candidates. That's not going to change. She got more coverage in this last election because she was particularly successful in using her wealth and celebrity to advance her candidate and to argue against the election of Clinton.

You care about looking at numbers but claim posting a link to someone's voting record is negative. Your appeal to empiricism is touching, but it is highly selective and not the least bit convincing.

The numbers for Stein are clear. Her margin of victory in key states was higher than that of Clinton's loss.
I don't for a second believe that was all due to Sarandon. We know the Kremlin targeted "progressives" to convince them to vote for Stein and deliberately stoked divisions from the primary to get them to do so. Stein was a central part of the Kremlin propaganda efforts. What we don't know is if she was a witting participant.

I'm guessing the sweatshop reference relates to her role as a face for Loreal. She doesn't own those sweatshops; she merely contributes to their profits and proliferation by doing ads for the company. She also does commercials for Big Pharma and other industries she pretends to oppose when it suits her political goals but somehow doesn't affect her eagerness to take and earn money for them. She complained that a woman candidate shouldn't be wealthy, even as her own net worth is roughly that of Clinton's, only Hillary doesn't use hers to buy six mansions. She contributes to a charitable foundation, like a true "corporatist."

Perhaps most disgusting is Sarandon's expression of pleasure at the "energy" that has resulted from the suffering and terror imposed by the Trump administration. Treating Dolores Huerta, truly a legend in union and Latino organizing, as the help was a low point as well. She really is an imbecile and a hack.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #178)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 03:35 PM

190. How is this relevant now? If I use your rationale above,

 

We should not vote for Hillary because she had the gall to once run directly against Obama. Where does it end?

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Response to elehhhhna (Reply #190)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 07:58 PM

218. What are you talking about?

I didn't say a thing about who you should vote for. I said Sarandon has never supported Democrats, at least not this century.

Do you think Dick Cheney is suddenly going to start voting Democrat? How about Newt Gingrich? You could make pleas to stop attacking them, and it would make as much sense as your devotion to six-mansions Sarandon.

I get you believe anyone who supported Bernie in 2016 should never be criticized. That isn't the purpose of this site and it isn't a basis for unity. It's a call to impose permanent division, to suppress all speech that does not promote one politician and anyone with any relation to him. You are free to spend your entire life trapped in the 2016 primary, permanently attached to allegiances from that era. You and your friends can continue value those allegiances over whether someone voted Democrat in the 2016 GE, 2012, 2008, 2004, or 2000. What you have no right to impose those values on others. I have no obligation to "unify" around Sarandon or the rest of the third party voters who helped put Trump in office. If any of them choose to work to get Democratic candidates elected, I welcome their participation. But to insist that those who continue to oppose the Democratic party and Democratic voters are somehow allies is absurd. Besides, I've seen enough of those people on social media to know they are every bit as racist and misogynist as the Tiki torch crowd, and they don't try to hide it. Why would anyone with a conscience want to unify with that? There is a reason they chose Trump, even if only indirectly. He reflects their values. If you want to be taken in by their cynical use of leftist buzzwords, that's your problem. The Club for Growth does the same thing now. They love to denounce "corporate" this and that. Do you really think they mean it? Seriously. People let themselves get conned way too easily. Talk is cheap. Actions matter.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #218)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 09:40 PM

219. First off you are mistaken, she supported obama

 

You're completely missing the point: that doesn't mean jack shit right now. I repeat, Now. Today.

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #169)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 02:22 PM

180. LOL! She's Lucy with the football. You're Charlie Brown. Maybe it'll be different next time!

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #120)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 01:13 PM

174. People who make mistakes acknowledge them

Instead Sarandon has expressed delight at the "energy" that has resulted from the privation and terror created by Trump. Your post insisting Sarandon shouldn't be "denounced every day" only confirms my point. I seriously doubt she is even mentioned every day, but the fact anyone feels the need to protect a movie star shows a value system entirely at odds with claims of opposition to the one percent.

My posts are what you consider negative. Not demanding that Pelosi or Feinstein be removed from office, but saying i agree with a Sanders supporter on issues but then committed the crime of linking to Sanders voting record. Facts must be buried in order to meet your standards of what constitutes acceptable discussion. I made no other comment that might be considered negative by any rational human being. I contrasted Sarandon with Sanders and said I could see the OP's point on Bernie but not Sarandon. I said I did not agree, but saw a point. Those posts can be considered negative only if the concern is thought rather than words, which gets to the very heard of what these posts are about: controlling speech and thought. Meanwhile, demanding Democrats be primaried or removed from leadership positions is the work of angels.

Like the OP, you accuse others of scolding while doing nothing but.



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Response to BainsBane (Reply #174)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 01:24 PM

177. Sorry, but I'm completely out of patience with all the straw-man arguments on DU.

 

You just keep on rebutting what you think I said. I'll try to resist the temptation to correct you. That way we'll both be happier.

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #177)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 03:35 PM

191. Pro tip never argue with somebody's imagination.

 

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Response to elehhhhna (Reply #191)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 04:22 PM

200. NOW you tell me! (n/t)

 

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #86)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 06:46 AM

118. Any thoughts on the legion of op's scolding folks who still haven't felt the Bern? They do exactly

what they're designed to do, and that's to further the divisions & keep the fight going. I can almost guarantee that the o.p. hasn't changed a single mind, so what was the point, other than to start yet another fight?

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #118)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 07:09 AM

122. I have not seen such a legion of posts.

 

We have here another example of the fallacy of the excluded middle, which abounds on DU. I would take your phrase "scolding folks who still haven't felt the Bern" to mean posts that, refighting the primary, urge people to agree that the Democratic Party should have nominated Bernie. On the other side are the posts bashing Bernie. Of the posts I've seen, those in the second category far outnumber those in the first.

I suspect that where you and I differ is with regard to a post that says something, anything, positive about Bernie -- or, most commonly, refutes the latest criticism. Such a post is the middle that I suspect is being excluded. A post like that doesn't constitute "scolding folks who still haven't felt the Bern" in my book.

Now, if you had asked me for my thoughts on the OP's maligning the organizers of the Women's Convention for daring to invite Bernie, then I would have agreed with you that such posts further the divisions and keep the fight going.

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 12:59 AM

93. Living in the past? Did Hillary Clinton, Susan Sarandon and Bernie Sanders die last year?

Far as I know they're still walking around talking and doing things in 2017. This forum is not for anyone who didn't support the Democratic candidate in the last general election. Enough with helping Republicans win.

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 02:06 AM

104. I will not, can not forget.

 

I will NOT EVER vote for a Temp dem. NOT ever

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Response to Tavarious Jackson (Reply #104)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 01:06 PM

172. Many other POC feel the same way, and that sentiment is conveniently ignored.

 

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 02:46 AM

106. Here's the thing

We have an idiot in the White House who is dismantling the country piece by piece by piece. Every time he does something horrible, we remember what could have been and wasn't because.... <whatever is in our heads>... whether it's Sanders, Sarandon, Russians, Comey, or others. Then we become furious all over again as we consider how this hurts so many people. People are dying because of those who helped, in whatever way, to elect trump. We aren't blind, we saw the glee that trump's election gave the BoB's. They still think Trump is better, and they totally disregard Russian interference. We also have a pretty good idea that some of them hang/lurk around here. Are we angry? Hell yes. Do we know what they did? Yes again. Will we ever forgive or forget? No.

And that, dear DUers, is why you see so many venomous posts yelling about people not supporting Hillary. It isn't aimed at those who voted for Bernie in the primaries but voted for Hillary in the general. We know there are others who did not vote for Hillary and we're mad as hell at them and that isn't going to change. EVER.

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Response to radical noodle (Reply #106)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 01:10 PM

173. Eloquently stated. Thank you.

 

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Response to radical noodle (Reply #106)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 05:33 PM

214. Terrific post.

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Response to radical noodle (Reply #106)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 05:35 PM

215. Correct. That's exactrly what I feel. I will never for get, and I won't be silenced

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 03:04 AM

108. I have Stein, Hillary, Bernie, Sanders, Sarandon on auto trash by keyword

Also the words Taylor and Mensch. It cleans up GD nicely but only works when the keywords are in the title of the OP.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #108)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 12:51 PM

168. What does that leave? Hurricanes, "caption this pic!" and 'toons?

For a site that's supposed to help Democrats get elected, there's very little discussion about elections other than at the presidential level.

2018 people, tick tock!

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 06:20 AM

114. Wow! Lots of overnight uniters! 117 recc's! 85 in less than 3hrs & more than 30 overnight!

 

Viva la vida united

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)


Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 06:32 AM

116. Agree, agree, agree.

If we don't focus on the future, we're destined to repeat the past.

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 07:01 AM

121. Bullshit

1927 German - "sure Hitler is in power now, but boy!... did we send a message to the establishment or not"?

I'm done with anyone who claims to be a progressive that didn't vote a straight Dem ticket.

You OWN this just as much as the Retrumplicans do.

If that makes you uncomfortable, embarrassed, or regretful, well...suck it up snowflake. I hope your heart hurts everytime you see that orange Jackass on the TV

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Response to maxrandb (Reply #121)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 08:20 AM

127. Yet this OP got LOTS recc's in record time and overnight!

 

Lots and lots of people here want to unite and move on. Very sincerely.



maxrandb
121. Bullshit

1927 German - "sure Hitler is in power now, but boy!... did we send a message to the establishment or not"?

I'm done with anyone who claims to be a progressive that didn't vote a straight Dem ticket.

You OWN this just as much as the Retrumplicans do.

If that makes you uncomfortable, embarrassed, or regretful, well...suck it up snowflake. I hope your heart hurts everytime you see that orange Jackass on the TV

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Response to Madam45for2923 (Reply #127)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 02:39 PM

182. That's the problem

Unite for what??

This country is being destroyed brick by brick.

There won't be shit left to save in two years.

We had one fucking job and we blew it.

We'll be lucky to have free and fair elections in 2018.

One more census with these pricks in charge and it's OVER!!!

Besides, we can always count on progressives allowing a white supremacists shit like the keebler Nazi to be the top law enforcement officer of the land because who the Dems run isn't pure enough

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 08:28 AM

128. I immediately trash all those threads.

Not enough time in my day to listen to the same arguments a thousand times.
Trust me, I've begged, they won't stop, so take my advice and just put those threads in the dumpster. And once you do, you'll be amazed at how many interesting threads that were previously covered over come to our attention.

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Response to tavernier (Reply #128)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 09:07 AM

130. Same here.

And instead of pissing and moaning about the state of things, people here should be involved in their local Democratic parties, out on the streets canvassing and phone-banking.

It's rather easy - you join your local Democratic committee in your town, maybe even become a "district leader" - most of them are looking for warm bodies in this regard. You get involved on the local level and support local candidates - get to know the players, where the wires are pulled, etc.

If the local Democratic committees get more progressives into their system, this will trickle up into the state parties and eventually to the national party.

You want to take over the Democratic Party? first you gotta be in the Democratic Party Quick fixes and working from the outside ain't gonna cut it.

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 09:14 AM

131. Divisive Underground exists to divide us and bury us deep underground

We simply must keep fighting each other instead of the Republicans so that after they win we can fight amongst ourselves some more. See how that works? It's the principle of a circular firing squad.



You know people sign up and come here late at night simply because of their need to scold someone for something. They like it. It releases endorphins in their brains and makes them feel self righteous and pretentious.



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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 09:59 AM

136. 135 Recs!!! Great news. nt

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 10:28 AM

141. Random? Nothing "random" about it at all...

Venomous posts yelling at random people on DU for allegedly not supporting Hillary Clinton
Random? Nothing "random" about it at all. I'm not sure that "venomous" is an accurate characterization either. I guess it depends on how much someone feels sympathy for those who refused to support our party's nominee. But, that's all secondary to my main point here... that it's not "random" at all. The posts you object to are directed toward a very specific group... not "random" passers-by.

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 10:34 AM

145. Scolding is part of DU

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 10:34 AM

146. "Divisive rabble rousing"?? It's nothing of the sort.

We come here to avoid divisive rabble rousing like that, and living in the past doesn't help the future.
"Divisive rabble rousing"?? It's nothing of the sort. Among those who supported our party's nominee, this should be unifying and energizing and a re-focusing of our energies against our enemies.

Personally, I find it odd that anyone would be opposed to such a thing. Why would anyone want to defend the obvious targets of the justified scorn, contempt, anger and distrust? Why would anyone care so much about Susan Sarandon or anyone of her ilk that didn't support our party's nominee?

How is this "divisive"? Who's being "divided" from whom?

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 10:36 AM

148. When the same thing happens over and over,

it's not the time to ignore it. So--called progressives electing the most regressive candidates because they wont support the not quite as progressive as them candidate is why we had the worst 2 elections ever - Bush and drumpf It's not stale history, it keeps happening so is relevant.

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 12:04 PM

159. I just came into this thread to bask in the unity

Feel the love! Good job

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 12:56 PM

170. fingerwaggingunderground.com

Sad, because the site could be so much more. There's so much emphasis on personalities and so little on policy (Eleanor Roosevelt quote is coming to mind...).

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 01:19 PM

176. Is it me or do these posts always seem to come from people who didn't vote for Hillary?

Simply put, anybody who didn't vote for Hillary is responsible for the mess we're in right now. The criticism and complaining is warranted.

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Response to LonePirate (Reply #176)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 02:56 PM

184. I'm sure the OP voted for Hillary in the GE. As we all did. n/t

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Response to LonePirate (Reply #176)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 03:40 PM

192. You are mistaken and that is insulting

 

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Response to LonePirate (Reply #176)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 04:25 PM

201. Really? Do you really think that most people on this blog didn't vote for Clinton? Note the "most."

From my perspective, too many people are more interested in keeping the roiling and blame going than bringing the left together to elect more people who have similar issues. None of us is a Republican. Perhaps there is an element on the left and the right that wants to keep the emotional blaming going. For me, that's not productive. Right now we have a President who does that and it is destroying our country. Trump is focused on destroying everything Obama just as some here are focused on blame Bernie, Sarandon, whomever. It is so unproductive.

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Response to George Eliot (Reply #201)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 04:44 PM

207. The # of people on DU ≠ The # of people here complaining about Dems attacking Bernie, Sarandon, etc.

Although I'm sure some people conflate the two groups.

Hillary voters - of which most DUers are Hillary voters - are justified in complaining about those who didn't vote for Hillary. There are some DUers who certainly did not vote for Hillary. Some didn't vote. Some wrote in Bernie or another name. Some voted for Stein or another third party candidate. Hopefully none voted for 45. Regardless, I suspect the subset of Hillary voters on DU is not creating most of these stop complaining threads. That is pure speculation on my part so feel free to disagree.

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Response to LonePirate (Reply #207)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 04:57 PM

212. As you can tell from my post, I am in the camp of "stop complaining" as it is unproductive.

I'm in the "move forward" camp. I think we agree more than we disagree except for the names. I am a Sanders supporter who voted for Clinton - of course. I respect every person's personal choice even given the turd we are stuck with. Actually, make that "dictator" because that is what he's become. My current concern: where is the recourse when we elect a man unfit to serve?

BTW, what satisfaction is there to continue to disparage Sanders or his supporters at this point? Besides pure emotion which is what got Trump elected in the first place by those on the right - hate, bigotry.

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 03:09 PM

188. I agree

This nonsense about blaming people like Sanders and Sarandon is not going to help the Dems. Either the Dem Party is a democratic organization of grown ups who can handle a little dissent, and accommodate people with whom it shares at least some positional similarities, or it is not. If it is not, then it is done.

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 03:49 PM

193. Yep. That's our culture

As long as we vote, a little argument hurts no one

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 04:35 PM

204. I voted for Bernie in the primary, and Hillary, of course, in the GE. I would have been happy with

either one. Democrats have to be united for the future, otherwise, this is likely to be a republican held country for quite sometime. The fighting in the democratic party is stupid.

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Sat Oct 14, 2017, 06:59 PM

217. As I see it the Jill Stein's and Susan Sarandons are the the ones who are divisive rabble

and criticising them is not divisive but a warning to be aware of false prophets

Criticising someone who actively campaigned against the Democratic nominee who was running against a racist, bigot, and sexist, is a red flag not to be lured by these frauds

In fact, it is imperative in order to avoid having those who are unsuspecting NOT to be fooled by these wolves in sheep's clothing




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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

Sun Oct 15, 2017, 09:24 AM

227. Agree with the post

I was a Bernie supporter who voted for Hillary. But I am sick and tired about rehashing history and the old he said, she said ad nauseam. Enough already!

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Response to elehhhhna (Original post)

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