HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » John Kelly just called Ro...

Mon Oct 30, 2017, 09:48 PM

 

John Kelly just called Robert E. Lee an "honorable man"

Remember, this is one of the "adults in the room", as the media declared him :

16 replies, 2566 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 16 replies Author Time Post
Reply John Kelly just called Robert E. Lee an "honorable man" (Original post)
Pugster Oct 2017 OP
JI7 Oct 2017 #1
Glimmer of Hope Oct 2017 #2
HopeAgain Oct 2017 #3
awesomerwb1 Oct 2017 #4
kentuck Oct 2017 #5
renegade000 Oct 2017 #6
Journeyman Oct 2017 #12
renegade000 Oct 2017 #16
Sailor65x1 Oct 2017 #7
yortsed snacilbuper Oct 2017 #8
peggysue2 Oct 2017 #9
PoindexterOglethorpe Oct 2017 #10
Nevernose Oct 2017 #11
Journeyman Oct 2017 #13
procon Oct 2017 #14
mikehiggins Oct 2017 #15

Response to Pugster (Original post)

Mon Oct 30, 2017, 09:52 PM

1. The guy is a racist asshole

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Pugster (Original post)

Mon Oct 30, 2017, 09:53 PM

2. More confirmation. Pos.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Pugster (Original post)

Mon Oct 30, 2017, 09:54 PM

3. This has been the narrative for well over 100 years

I was told that by my college history professor in the 80s at a progressive school. I don't agree that treason is honorable, nor sending tens of thousands to die in a lost cause for a slave holding society, but many Americans have been taught to believe that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Pugster (Original post)

Mon Oct 30, 2017, 09:59 PM

4. For me, I didn't think he'd be "an adult in the house"

I thought he'd be an honorable man in the house.

Man, was I waaay offff on this one.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Pugster (Original post)

Mon Oct 30, 2017, 10:00 PM

5. Wow!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Pugster (Original post)

Mon Oct 30, 2017, 10:13 PM

6. Wish the ghost of George Henry Thomas would come back to haunt Kelly...

That was an honorable man who gave up his family and his social station to fight for his country.

He's been forgotten by history because of all the Lee idolatry.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to renegade000 (Reply #6)

Mon Oct 30, 2017, 10:36 PM

12. Well said. There could never be enough statues for Gen. Thomas, nor enough praise . . .

heaped upon his name. Unfortunately, however, outside of the history books -- and even then, rarely in those books not exclusively about Union military tactics in the West -- the "Rock of Chickamauga" is largely unknown and unsung. He holds the distinction, however, as the only Union commander who drove a major Confederate army away from a prepared position in a complete rout -- and he did it twice, first at Chattanooga, later at Nashville.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Journeyman (Reply #12)

Mon Oct 30, 2017, 11:55 PM

16. It is a huge shame that he's not as widely known.

He also had some pretty impeccable words after the war:


[T]he greatest efforts made by the defeated insurgents since the close of the war have been to promulgate the idea that the cause of liberty, justice, humanity, equality, and all the calendar of the virtues of freedom, suffered violence and wrong when the effort for southern independence failed. This is, of course, intended as a species of political cant, whereby the crime of treason might be covered with a counterfeit varnish of patriotism, so that the precipitators of the rebellion might go down in history hand in hand with the defenders of the government, thus wiping out with their own hands their own stains; a species of self-forgiveness amazing in its effrontery, when it is considered that life and property—justly forfeited by the laws of the country, of war, and of nations, through the magnanimity of the government and people—was not exacted from them.

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_Henry_Thomas

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Pugster (Original post)

Mon Oct 30, 2017, 10:18 PM

7. Well there is one interesting thing about it, honorable or not...

 

All of the effort and desire today to remove his statues is not nearly a new thing although we'd like to pretend we are seeing/acting as the first enlightened generation. On the contrary, the first person to object to statues of Lee was Lee himself. Yet up they went, and only now do they finally come down.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Pugster (Original post)

Mon Oct 30, 2017, 10:18 PM

8. John kelly is an empty barrel.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Pugster (Original post)

Mon Oct 30, 2017, 10:23 PM

9. And . . .

that is called Treason. There's a reason Arlington Cemetery exists. It was Robert E. Lee's forfeiture for treachery.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Pugster (Original post)

Mon Oct 30, 2017, 10:26 PM

10. He was a traitor to his country.

Not an honorable man.

Even when I was rather young and first being fed that crap about how Robert E. Lee was so upright and moral and loved his state so very much, I knew there was something wrong with that. And I didn't even grow up in the deep South. Or the South at all. I was learning that in New York State.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Pugster (Original post)

Mon Oct 30, 2017, 10:29 PM

11. I believed that for many years

Because that’s what I was taught.

Then I learned to think for myself.

As it turns out, not everything I was taught (by other people OR myself) turned out to be accurate.

Turns out, Robert E Lee was an asshole. Sure, there were Confederate officers who were objectively worse human beings. But Lee was a traitorous slave-owning piece of shit, and I’m sorry I was wrong for so long. Even LEE died thinking he was a traitorous piece of shit.

I almost feel sorry for people like General Kelly. Lifelong professional soldiers aren’t top of the list of stereotypes of “people opening to questioning traditional society.”

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Pugster (Original post)

Mon Oct 30, 2017, 11:02 PM

13. Like most people, Robert E. Lee was an extremely complicated individual . . .

Like most people — and especially those who rise to positions of decision and power — Robert E. Lee was an extremely complicated individual. Brilliant in some ways, I’ve never understood the mythos that arose around him during the rebellion. Oh certainly, he made some extraordinary tactical maneuvers, and won some battles he should have surely lost, but he made a disproportionate number of blunders as well, many of which cost him and the South much more than they could afford to lose and hope to prevail in their insurrection.

The ill-fated charge on the third day at Gettysburg is but one of many examples, though surely it is the most remembered.

For all his efforts, however, it is well to keep in mind that slavery was ultimately vanquished from our land because of Robert E. Lee. It is one of those supremely ironic situations that doesn’t get near enough recognition.

Up until the time Lee took command of the Army of Northern Virginia (June 1862) it was Mr Lincoln’s stated objective that if the South ceased its rebellion, and submitted again to Union control, then slavery would remain as it had been prior to the rebellion. The original 13th Amendment, the Corwin Amendment (after the Ohio Congressman who proposed it), held that slavery was to be unmolested in perpetuity. Mr Lincoln himself endorsed this idea in his First Inaugural. (1)

It was Robert E. Lee’s success against far superior Union forces in the Seven Days Battles that sealed the South’s fate and slavery’s demise. In driving the Army of the Potomac back, Lee turned Confederate morale around, and its soldiers took to battle with renewed purpose. That summer, however, convinced Mr Lincoln that every tactic needed to be deployed against the rebellion, including denial of its labor force and the eventual use of black soldiers. The die was cast -- by Robert E. Lee -- and the result was eventual total war and the destruction of Southern social and political order.

And there was another aspect of Lee that doesn’t get enough recognition, the idea that he saved the Union from a good deal of misery and unreconcilable destruction in the years after Appomattox.

In April 1865: The Month that Saved America (a book I cannot recommend highly enough; it’s one of the finest works on American history I’ve read), author Jay Winik details the enormous debt we owe Lee for the manner in which he surrendered. A lesser man may have given his men carte blanche to resort to guerrilla warfare and indiscriminate terror (and some Confederate cmmanders did), but Lee consistently held that his men should return to their families and fields, and energetically campaigned in the aftermath of the rebellion that reconciliation was in the best interest of everyone — South and North, freemen all.

All said and done, then, and pursued strictly from an historical stance, Robert E. Lee remains a deeply flawed, complex individual. General Kelly, however, proves almost hourly he's little more than a nitwit, an empty barrel fit ideally for use as a spittoon.



(1) "I understand a proposed amendment to the Constitution—which amendment, however, I have not seen—has passed Congress, to the effect that the Federal Government shall never interfere with the domestic institutions of the States, including that of persons held to service. To avoid misconstruction of what I have said, I depart from my purpose not to speak of particular amendments so far as to say that, holding such a provision to now be implied constitutional law, I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable.” ~ President Abraham Lincoln, First Inaugural, March 4, 1861

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Pugster (Original post)

Mon Oct 30, 2017, 11:02 PM

14. That would explain why he attacked the congresswoman and refused to

apologize for his errors. He fits right in with Trump and the rest of his white supremacists.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Pugster (Original post)

Mon Oct 30, 2017, 11:12 PM

15. Lee took an oath to honor and protect the UNITED STATES Constitution

He was a traitor to his oath, his service and his country.

This is what Kelly thinks is honorable?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread