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[GarroHorus]

This message was self-deleted by its author (GarroHorus) on Fri Jul 20, 2012, 09:09 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[DURHAM D]

1. Agree - Please see my post here -

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=982337

[elleng]

2. and impose and enforce

laws prohibiting acquisition of firearms by those so handicapped.

[GarroHorus]

5. The biggest problem is so many with such problems never seek real help.

Thus, they would never be entered into a system to keep them from acquiring firearms.

[elleng]

7. True.

[LiberalEsto]

35. Another problem is that families are helpless

It is incredibly difficult to push someone into treatment. In Maryland the standard is that a person must be an imminent danger to self or to others. I'm not sure what criteria exist in other states. The laws changed about 30-40 years ago to protect people from being involuntarily committed and forced into treatment for mental illness. I agree with those changes to some extent, but they created new problems.

I've heard personal story after story of people suffering from the actions of mentally ill family members who refuse to seek help, but who are making life utter hell for their families. I've talked to police who say they are extremely frustrated about wanting to help, but find their hands tied by existing laws.

There are not enough places for treating the severely mentally ill, and not enough funds to treat them. Thanks to Ray-Gun, most of the large psychiatric hospitals in the country were closed, and their populations were dumped in the streets.

Too many people today lack jobs with health insurance or the money with which to purchase coverage. They can't afford the medications they require in order to stay stable.

With fewer treatment options available, there are more unstable individuals walking around. Most people with mental health problems are harmless, or at most are only a danger to themselves. The few really unstable people who desperately need help but aren't getting it are the problem. We need some way to provide treatment for them, protect the public, and keep them from acquiring weapons.

And if I had the answers to this situation, I'd probably be a multimillionaire.

[byeya]

65. I was a law enforcement officer in a very rural area of an eastern mountain

county and it was pitiful when the large public mental hospital was closed and you would come across
these utterly confused and helpless people walking along the roads, sleeping out in the elements, and social services
could, or would, not help them and there was no lasting help available for them.

[Solomon]

67. I remember the big change that happened when Reagan

shut down the social and mental facilities. When i was growing up, you only had a few "bums" as we called them back then out on the street. After Reagan, homelesss and mentally ill people everywhere.

The sad thing is, people are used to it now like this is the way it always was, but it is not.

[DCKit]

68. Where I grew up in central PA, half of them were dead within five years of their "release".

St. Ronald, indeed.

[cbdo2007]

3. many states are cutting their budgets for mental illness

I know they did that here in Missouri.

[Lint Head]

4. When was he diagnosed with mental illness?

[skip fox]

11. The diagnosis is in the act.

Name one mass shooter who was not mentally ill?

Could it happen due to ideology? Yes. But the person would have to be mentally ill to act on ideology in this fashion. Same with any other possible so called "cause."

I'm not a closed minded person, but some thinks are rather obvious. (NOt the way Bill O'Reilly is so convinced that his perceptions are always the most accurate.)

[Lint Head]

15. Are the mass killings of innocent families in Iraq and Afghanistan the result of mental illness?

You're asking a rhetorical question which answers itself.

[GarroHorus]

16. HINT: Loughner was not diagnosed until AFTER the shootings

Some people have to make every single event in the world political.

[Lint Head]

26. This is a political forum. Politics kills. The politics in Colorado which allows people to

own an unlimited amount of guns is political. Mentally ill people should not carry guns. Some people like to stereotype every comment made by everyone. You are assuming mental illness and I'm sure his lawyer will jump all over that defense.

[GarroHorus]

27. Everybody has a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to own as many weapons as they choose.

Mentally ill people are precluded from owning weapons WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN DIAGNOSED WITH A MENTAL ILLNESS

So stop crying about guns, that's not the issue and never has been.

[Lint Head]

32. You the one crying and obvious shouting (large caps) about guns.

[GarroHorus]

33. Buh bye n/t

[pinboy3niner]

34. A should be we all

Crying and shouting about guns seems most appropriate.

[harmonicon]

51. Not true.

I'm pretty sure there are a very large number of weapons which are illegal to own, and that there are laws about the number of various weapons one may own. If you don't believe me, build yourself a cruise missile or nuclear warhead, and see who comes calling.

[tclambert]

58. That's why I keep a personal stockpile of nuclear weapons.

Oops, maybe I shouldn't have put that where the NSA could see it.

(See, NSA? I used the sarcasm thingy. That means I don't really have nuclear weapons. Don't send a goon squad to get--ACK)

[Tumbulu]

62. It sure is an issue to me- and should be to you

There is no constitutional right to go shoot people- and the right to bear arms is about having militia's- and you should know that.

Good grief.

This is about unbalanced people having easy access to firearms- which should not be the case and so yes it is political!

And it is about the glorification by the media of violence. It should not be glorified and firearms should not be easy to acquire. One should be required to have liability insurance on it and pass some sort of a test. Like driving a vehicle or flying an airplane.

[GarroHorus]

63. I 100% disagree with your assessment n/t

[skip fox]

19. "Name one mass shooter" implies individuals who commit the act by themselves.

[NCTraveler]

43. Yes. Bush is mentally ill. nt.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

39. People commit obscene crimes in the name of hatred, religion, and ideology -

all the time and, many times, they are not mentally ill. Timothy McVeigh was a cold-blooded murderer. Anders Behring Breivik has been ruled sane. Khmer rouge and the Soviets under Stalin killed thousands for politics. The Hutus massacred the Tutsis out of hatred.

Many people who go on shooting sprees are indeed mentally ill, but the act itself is not always the diagnosis.

[skip fox]

45. McVeigh not mentally ill? No remorse, no compassion. Pathological in his approach?

On edit:

Beside, he was not a mass shooter.

Someone who bombs doesn't desire to look his victims in the eye and shoot them.

[arely staircase]

56. so anyone who shoots a bunch of people is per se not guilty

by reason of insanity?

[tclambert]

60. Mentally ill and legally insane are two different cockroaches.

Legal insanity has weird rules. Jeffrey Dahmer was wacky as could be, but legally sane. He knew right from wrong and could aid in his own defense. The Colorado shooter could have gotten secret instructions listening to static (does anyone hear static anymore or is everything digital?), but if he tried to dodge the police, that could be interpreted as knowledge of guilt and get him ruled legally sane.

[arely staircase]

66. unless he dodged the police because they were sending him anti-

semitic meatloaf recipes by using their penises for antenae. you make a good point.

[tclambert]

70. You also made a good point. I did not know the police could do that.

Last edited Fri Jul 20, 2012, 07:55 PM - Edit history (1)

The things they teach in police academy these days!

Of course, that's nothing to what Swiss Army penises can do.

[GarroHorus]

13. Dictionary - seems

seem (sm)
intr.v. seemed, seem·ing, seems
1. To give the impression of being; appear: The child seems healthy, but the doctor is concerned.
2. To appear to one's own opinion or mind: I can't seem to get the story straight.
3. To appear to be true, probable, or evident: It seems you object to the plan. It seems like rain. He seems to have worked in sales for several years.
4. To appear to exist: There seems no reason to postpone it.

[riverwalker]

6. why did his car have Tennessee plates?

and where did he learn so much about explosives?
something does not add up.

[GarroHorus]

9. The Tennessee plates report was erroneous

Aurora Police later confirmed he had Colorado tags.

[riverwalker]

10. ok thanks n/t

[GarroHorus]

14. As far as explosives go, if he was studying neuroscience at a graduate level...

most likely he studied chemistry at an undergraduate level. Explosives are incredibly simple to synthesize.

[HooptieWagon]

17. Tenn plates appears to be bad info.

[Nevernose]

50. Explosives are the easy part

The Internet and a couple of solid undergrad chemistry courses are more than enough.

[TheCowsCameHome]

8. It will be intersting to hear what his mother has to say.

Evidently she suspected somehting.

[HooptieWagon]

21. Yes, she didn't seem surprised.

There must have been some prior incidents or clues that had concerned her. But she probably shouldn't talk to the media unless directed to by the guy's attorney.

[librechik]

12. the removal of the health/social safety net (or the lack always of anything meaningful

along those lines is what has made Americans so angry, violent and accting out. If we had mental health treatment, good backup for parents who work, justice for all, opportunity for all, these incidents would not be happening.

Instead we are told our social needs must be forgotten and trashed because they look like Communism or Socialism. Our president is demonized because he might be liberal. Welcome to the name calling society, where the only thing that counts is your personal negative label.

[global1]

18. One Would Think That The NRA Would Get Behind Mental Health Care .......

if it would save their precious guns.

[GarroHorus]

20. The NRA is not so much about guns but is more about promoting rightwing nuttery.

Support of guns is how they get people to vote against their own interests.

It's much like the rightwing evangelical Christian preachers who are more about promoting rightwing stances and convincing their followers to vote against their own interests.

30 years ago, the NRA stood for protecting hunter rights. Not so much any more.

[HooptieWagon]

24. The NRA is about promoting gun sales, by any means possible.

They represent the gun-manufacturers, not hunters, responsible owners, or the public.

[GreenStormCloud]

42. Bullshit!

The NRA is composed of a little over 4 million members, each of which pays $35 membership dues, and some donate more. The politics of the NRA are determined annually by a vote of members at their convention when the officers are elected. The NRA represents its members.

Only 20% of gun owners are hunters. The other 80% have guns for other reasons.

[Democrats_win]

28. Look at how they attacked Obama: RW nuttery indeed!

Obama has done nothing to diminish their gun rights yet they have attacked Obama from day one. They are a front group for the RW nuts and it is no longer about the guns. While James Holmes was preparing his mass murders, the NRA was attacking my president. When Clinton was president, the NRA's bumper stickers said their president was Charlton Heston. After Columbine the NRA thugs literally waved their guns in the faces of the victims. F the NRA and the RW flip flopping French horse they rode in on.

[GarroHorus]

29. I agree

Even Mitt Romney could not pay me enough money to be affiliated with the NRA.

[DBoon]

36. absolutely

They are now making support for Citizens United and the ability to buy elections with unlimited anonymous money a "gun rights" issue

[TheCowsCameHome]

23. Their membership would easily qualify.

[Hutzpa]

22. Mental illiness is the excuse used when you don't fall into that category

of ethnicity or religion.

One thing I do know is that if this individual was anything other than what he is, we would be talking about
terrorism right about now.

[zeemike]

48. Spot on.

Had he been a Muslim or a person of color it would be an act of terror....but a white guy that is Christian...well he just must be crazy....not his fault or the fault of a society that raised him.

[hifiguy]

25. I've dealt with depression issues for more than ten years.

I never felt any stigma, and friends and family members supported me when I needed help. At its worst, I had to be in an all-day outpatient program for six weeks and that's when the support was the strongest.

[1monster]

30. It's not just the stigma, it is the cost (most of which is not covered by insurance) and,

from my experience in seeking help for a family member, the down right incompetence and/or lack of caring on the part of the mental health service providers.

Don't get me wrong. There are many, many very dedicated mental health workers, but there are far, far too many who are simply don't belong in that business. Some are imcompetent. Some have their own agendas and become blind to anything that does not fit their agendas. Some are simply burned out. And some are in it just for the money.

On top of that, mental health, or lack of it, is a strange country which is difficult to navigate.

[Mimosa]

41. ^ Exactly right ^ Wasn't this Tipper Gore's cause? n/t

[reformist2]

31. Yes. Let's help them get help. And let's realize sometimes that means institutionalization.

[HooptieWagon]

37. Well, evidently he wasn't quite "right"...

and that his mother wasn't surprised seems to confirm those suspicions. But we don't know the extent of his issues, and wild speculation serves no useful purpose.
Let me suggest we just refrain from discussions about mental healthcare, RW extremist groups/connections, and gun control laws, until some facts begin coming out. Otherwise, we're all just blowi.g smoke out our asses.

[charlie]

38. "strangely quiet" "socially off"

A colleague of mine just spoke with a neuroscience faculty member who said he taught shooting suspect James Holmes in a class at the University of Colorado medical campus.

The faculty member, who asked for anonymity because of privacy concerns, said Holmes was “very quiet, strangely quiet in class,” and said he seemed “socially off.”

When the staff member heard Holmes’s name in connection with the shooting today, he thought that the suspect could well be his student, and he was not surprised to find out later that it was.

When Holmes and other neuroscience students took their comprehensive exams last semester, Holmes did very poorly, he said. The school’s staff wasn’t going to toss him out, the educator said, but they were planning to do something remedial, and contemplated putting him on academic probation.

http://liveblog.washingtonpost.com/2012/07/20/colorado-theater-shooting/#liveblog-entry-2023

[soccer1]

40. Sometimes the sickest won't go for help even if available and affordable.....

[AngryOldDem]

44. Make it part of health care.

I am self-insured and my plan will not cover counseling, so when I needed it about a year ago I had to pay out of pocket. I quit, because it just got too expensive. They wanted me to go on some meds, but those would have been ridiculously expensive, too, with no insurance. My son takes Abilify, and a 30-day supply of that is a couple hundred dollars.

I've found ways to cope. But others can't. Again -- the way we view mental health and health care in general in this nation is beyond a crying shame.

[Mira]

47. Yes. In other words have all kinds of Health Care for all

and a solid social safety net for our citizens.
What a concept!
So much to fix, so little time.

[Dustlawyer]

49. We already closed all of the state mental hospitals!

[randome]

52. Part of the reason we are remiss in identifying mental illness...

...is the pressure being brought to bear on teachers. We seem to have adopted a one-size-fits-all mentality. That combined with reductions that increase class size leaves scant time or inclination to truly evaluate students that pass through a teacher's classroom or a counselor's office.

In and out is the primary concern.

[enki23]

53. White, devoutly Christian, has an approving quote by G Gordon Libby attacking "Liberals" on facebook

Must just be that random, catch-all "mental illness." The form of the mental illness, or the fucking ideological framework provided to direct that mental illness doesn't matter, so long as the shooter is a white American.

Fucking Bullshit. Everybody who shoots up a bunch of unarmed civilians has a "mental illness". That's a completely useless diagnosis. What *form* did that illness take? Why is that the mental illness that causes people to shoot a bunch of innocents, rather than jumping off a fucking bridge, is so highly correlated with particular religious and ideological lines?

Unless he's black or leftist (does this even fucking happen anymore?) or Muslim, it's a "mental illness."

[vkkv]

54. Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-TX) blamed the mass killings as a result of ongoing attacks on religion.

HOLY ----!!!

The GOP is INSANE!

Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-TX) blamed the mass killings as a result of "ongoing attacks on Judeo-Christian beliefs" and questioned why nobody else in the theater had a gun to take down the shooter in a state where concealed gun carry is allowed.

Gohmert added,

"Some of us happen to believe that when our founders talked about guarding our virtue and freedom, that that was important," he reportedly said. "Whether it's John Adams saying our Constitution was made only for moral and religious people [...] Ben Franklin, only a virtuous people are capable of freedom, as nations become corrupt and vicious they have more need of masters. We have been at war with the very pillars, the very foundation of this country."

"You know what really gets me, as a Christian, is to see the ongoing attacks on Judeo-Christian beliefs, and then some senseless crazy act of a derelict takes place," Rep. Gohmert lamented.

OMG! Gohmert is NUTZO GONZO.

[magic59]

55. Is Rush Limbaugh responsible for this?

A few days ago Rush blamed The Dark Knight Rises movie for attacking Mitts Bain interests.
Could this punk be a right wing gun loving nut that took rush too serious?

[mopinko]

57. there is a distinction, and we do not know.

there is a distinction between a personality disorder- ie psychopath, sociopath, and mental illness. not the same thing biochemically, nor legally.
we won't know till we have had time to sort it all out.

i agree with your conclusion, but treatment does nothing for psychopaths.

[stevenleser]

59. Care for the mentally ill is woefully inadequate. Improving that would fix a lot of needless

suffering and not just these high profile instances. Its much more than that.

[Cleita]

61. Mental illness that is genetic sometimes doesn't kick in until

a child becomes an adult. This young man seems to be the right age. It's too bad his family didn't realize something was going wrong in order to get him help in time before he acted out on his impulses. This happened to a neighbor of mine. His son had a mental breakdown when in residency as a medical doctor. He was diagnosed as bi-polar and fortunately given the medication and treatment he needed before there was a tragedy. He is a functioning professional today, but must see his shrink every week and take his meds.

[mopinko]

64. btw- the luby's massacre shooter

was actually found later to have had a tumor in his frontal lobe. that would not really be considered a mental illness either.
so there is your one.

[Blue_Tires]

69. Cho had already been sent to a university counselor

there were some other red-flag incidents that probably should have gotten him kicked off campus (stalking girls, taking upskirt photos, etc)

[quaker bill]

71. Sane people don't do stuff like this

it is a basic part of the definition of "sane". The argument is circular and therefore says nothing.

Ideas actually matter because the insane will ideate on a concept but not in a rational way. Their response will be out of scale, another reason that they are "insane". Discussions of sanity are simply moot.

The larger point is that a mentally unbalanced individual legally purchased a significant quantity of weapons and ammo, and he was not the only one to do so. One hopes we do not find more of them in this or similar ways, but unfortunately, I expect we will.

[uppityperson]

72. thank you. Here is my post along the same line.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002981961

[4th law of robotics]

73. +1

Removing the stigma on mental illness and working to diagnose it better would go a long way towards preventing these kind of things (far more than flailing about afterwards for a political party to blame).

A sensible post on a day where they are lacking.