Why are we so quick to rush to judgement on Al Franken?

[trof]

Why are we so willing to accept one woman's word on what happened?
Especially a woman who is associated with (works for) right wing media?
Franken has been caught up in the Weinstein/Moore et al tsunami of #metoo.

It's good that this rock has been turned over.
But until I see something more than an obvious gag photo, no matter if you think it's in bad taste or not, and a 'she said' to convict Franken, I'm cutting him some slack.

Everything I know and have read about him tells me he is not this guy.
Not a perv.
A decent human being.
Even his handling of this situation is just plain...decent.

[smirkymonkey]

1. K&R

It's times like these when I am really disappointed in some of my fellow Democrats.

[trof]

2. I hear ya.

[FarPoint]

62. Trial by Media will never have a happy ending.

Feeding the media frenzy only makes the mob behavior proliferate.

[rockfordfile]

16. Maybe those people are not really Democrats.

[smirkymonkey]

18. Yes, just what I was thinking.

The bots seem to be out in full-force lately.

[liberal_patriot_md]

89. Same here

Let’s step back and look at this.

First, there is no way this is comparable to Roy Moore or Donald Trump. This was a single incident as described by one woman. Trump and Moore are accused my multiple women over a number of years.

Second, the accuser has gone from seething with rage every time she hears Franken speak or sees his face to accepting his apology immediately once he released a statement and welcomed an ethics inquiry. All in a space of less than 12 hours. And it’s a public statement not a personal apology.

Third, given how they’ve pounced never let anyone tell you about the “liberal media.” There’s been no fact-checking or investigation of this accusation. Everything in the allegation has been accepted as fact even though there are plenty of areas of inquiry. Hell, a person claiming to have been the military escort for Franken has disputed the accusers account in Twitter reply - has any one followed up with him? Did anyone see anything strange on the tour? Did Franken commit this kind of behavior with any other women in this or any other USO tour? Why did she use such sensational language about grabbing her breasts when it’s not clear he even touched her in that photo and if he did she was wearing body armor?

I’ve already seen one tweet of hers from 2011 where she has a picture of her and Franken and seems to look on it fondly - are there others? Has anyone mentioned she is a birther? Shouldn’t that impact her credibility at all?

There are a lot of unanswered questions - never mind the quotes from Hannity and the prediction from Roger Stone.

[smirkymonkey]

105. I completely agree with you in every way.

What you say is absolutely true. That is why I can't understand so many people on this board turning against Franken. It just doesn't make sense unless they are trolling.

[BannonsLiver]

3. NOT me. Been pushing back on this shit all day

Didn’t get a damn thing done at work today because of it.

[trof]

5. THANK YOU

[Cattledog]

4. I just watched her interview.

She said they were rehearsing a bit that called for a kiss and she was hesitant but she said OK and when they did he tongue kissed her. Not what I would call an assault. She even joked to others by calling him "Fish Lips".

[melman]

14. "She's no convent girl"

Unreal.

[BannonsLiver]

24. I dont believe anything she says that cant be corroborated by witnesses.

If there weren’t the past association with Hannity, the fact that she’s a trump supporter and the fact that everyone in the RW Twitter slimesphere knew about it before it was made public, I would be more inclined to find her credible.

This smells like a classic RW/Bannon style shiny object to deflect attention from something else. What that is who knows. But we all know there’s no shortage of things they don’t want us to see, or be talking about.

We have a serious spidey sense deficit here today. That’s not directed at you in any way, just a general comment.

[SergeStorms]

96. She showed the photo....

to Hannity over 10 years ago. Apparently it had been a "joke", until now. There is no "groping". Anyone looking at the photo she provided can see that. Was it in poor taste? Without a doubt.

[applegrove]

6. I hope Franken can withstand. He's such an asset to Dems. The lady

concerned accepted his apology. There will be an ethics committee investigation. That's enough.

[populistdriven]

47. can the ethics committee make it a partisan witch hunt or are there procedures to avoid that? nt

[applegrove]

52. Don't know. I assume people will be interviewed or asked to testify.

The woman will speak and Franken will have to answer questions under oath.

[Pugster]

7. One person suggested she has ties to Hannity

I would say a majority has taken Franken's side.

[trof]

9. She's appeared on his show.

Works for a right wing radio talk station.

[ChubbyStar]

12. Well this is A Democratic website and posters are Democrats

More than one person has suggested she has ties to Hannity and the RW, you have a problem with that?

[grantcart]

23. She was a regular, a birther

[BannonsLiver]

25. A birther? Holy shit its worse than I thought.

[Squinch]

40. This is sexist bullshit. Because she had a photo in a bikini, it means she's not patriotic?

Catch up Binky. Your knuckles are scraping.

[ChubbyStar]

59. My knuckles are fine

What a kind post!

[Squinch]

69. It wasn't meant to be kind. Your post was disgustingly sexist.

[ChubbyStar]

70. Ouch

I am crushed.

[Squinch]

115. LOL. Apparently.

[Raine1967]

48. can we NOT slut shame?

This is just disgusting.

[Squinch]

49. Lot's of weird and creepy sexism showing up in these threads.

[Raine1967]

50. I see it and can't stand it.

I believe her and him --

and I accept his statement as true. As to the rest of it?

Things always come out in the wash.

[Puzzledtraveller]

10. There is nothing wrong in taking the allegation seriously

doesn't matter what the accusers motivations are if it upset them, should he resign? No, if there is not more accusers. Should he lead the way on purging this kind of crap, yes, and it seems he is willing to try.

[trof]

13. Yes, there is.

You've already convicted the guy.

[Puzzledtraveller]

15. You have to take all allegations seriously

that only means being willing to listen, assess the evidence, not outright dismissal. Perhaps because I am a social services caseworker i feel this way.

[rockfordfile]

17. You didn't assess the evidence

[atreides1]

88. What evidence?

All there is so far is a photo that may or may not have been a joke in which she was a participant! As for her claims as to what happened during their rehearsal, that allegation hasn't been proved beyond a reasonable doubt!

And yes her political and media affiliations do weigh on her credibility!

[womanofthehills]

95. The photographer said it was a joke

[sl8]

102. Where did you see that the photographer said that?

Thanks.

[Marengo]

101. Did she consent to her participation?

[ClarendonDem]

21. Hasn't just about every DU member

Already convicted Moore?

[Squinch]

39. Lol!

[Lisa0825]

45. Long pattern of behavior, corroborated by numerous victims and

witnesses who can attest to reports of past events and behavior. BIG fucking difference.

Also, your post comes off as rather trollish.

[liberal_patriot_md]

92. .

I was about to post the exact same thing.

[Lisa0825]

93. GMTA

[Wednesdays]

111. But whaddabout... Whaddabout... Whaddabout...

Yes, the two cases are EXACTLY the same!

[Squinch]

38. Show a link or a thread where someone has already convicted him. It just hasn't happened.

Sorry to harsh your narrative, but it hasn't.

[kcr]

43. Just because you haven't seen all the posts demanding he resign right now!

Combined with all the Dems/DUers are all such hypocrites, BLAHHH! bullshit doesn't mean they didn't happen. Maybe your ignore list is pretty extensive, but not everyone uses them or puts the same people on them.

[Squinch]

46. I have almost no one on ignore, and I just read through 4 pages of DU headlines.

Nothing.

[ClarendonDem]

67. So your position

Is that nobody on DU thinks Moore actually committed the acts of which he is accused? Or am I misreading your post?

[Squinch]

68. You are misreading my post.

[ClarendonDem]

71. Fair enough

I'm just trying to wrap my arms around everyone's willingness to forgive Franken. Moore's and Trump's actions certainly sound worse, but that doesn't mean we should disregard transgressions by a Dem.

[Squinch]

76. Yeah, I see you trying to wrap your arms around that. Not sure why it's so hard for you,

though I do have my suspicions.

No. Trump's and Moore's actions don't SOUND worse. They ARE worse.

And no one is disregarding a transgression by a Democrat. But I'm sure you already know all that.

[ClarendonDem]

82. what suspicions do you have?

And you seem to be excusing the allegations against franken.

[Squinch]

84. It's just soooooo confusing and frustrating!!!!

[RandomAccess]

55. Good God, man, there's a PHOTO

[Squinch]

83. A photo of what appears to be a staged gag which, though admittedly creepy, the woman

was apparently in on.

More importantly, good God, man, there's an apology in which he makes it clear that, though the photo was meant to be a joke he understands that the "joke" was neither funny nor appropriate. The apology was an example, a very good instruction manual, about how men need to look at themselves when they are told they have sexually harassed a woman. This is a guy who can teach men things that men really, really, really need to learn.

And the accuser has publicly accepted his apology.

What else do you need?

[renegade000]

11. Well, I think it's right to...

want to hold our own side accountable and to err on the side of credulity of women's stories. But yeah, we need to follow process on this (the ethics investigation, etc). If Franken really did behave quite badly, it will come out. If this is a James O'Keefe style hit job, that should become evident over time.

[ClarendonDem]

20. So should we wait until there is an ethics investigation

Into the Moore accusations before calling for him to drop out? Christ, a bit of consistency would be nice.

[Squinch]

33. Franken requested the investigation. I'm assuming it is his smart way to get it on the official

record that the photo was a joke and the woman consented. For that reason I think we should support it.

[ClarendonDem]

19. I haven't seen anyone on here

Defending Roy Moore, or casting aspersions on his accusers. Do we only believe women who accuse a Republican of sexual assault, and assume the Dems are innocent? If so, that's pretty appalling.

[LisaL]

22. Demand we have to believe all the accusations without any proof is a trap.

Because now anybody can be accused of anything, and apparently we have to believe it without question.

[Tarheel_Dem]

28. At last count, there were 9 women making accusations against Moore. Only 1 woman has come out...

to accuse Franken. What's appalling is your apparent desire to paint DU'ers as hypocrites. There may be more women out there who don't seem to have so many ties to the rightwing echo-sphere as Ms. Tweeden does. I don't think anyone here is giving Franken a pass...I certainly haven't. Franken, himself, has called for an ethics investigation. Usually, there's a history with predators, and this won't be the only woman to come forward if there's been a pattern.

[ChubbyStar]

30. Thank you

poster seems very confused that this is Democratic Underground. I have no idea why....

[ClarendonDem]

66. Sure

But folks here condemned Moore after the first accuser, and didn't make excuses for him, or attack the women who claimed he assaulted them. Just seems like we are willing to believe the worse in those we don't like but disbelieve those who accuse folks we do like. Very frustrating.

[Tarheel_Dem]

75. Not sure why it's "very frustrating" for Democrats, posting on a democratic message board to...

question the veracity of this rightwing talk show host considering all the claims made lately. There may be something to it, and there may not. It won't be settled at DU. Let's have the investigation (which the accuser doesn't want). Wonder why?

I'm not saying that Franken is either guilty or innocent, none of us know that. Franken hasn't spoken ill of this woman, he hasn't threatened to sue her, and he's called for an ethics investigation. Quite frankly, I think the rush to acquit Franken is just as over the top as your excoriation of DU'ers for not holding Franken to the same standard as a grown assed man who's been accused of chasing children.

Sorry, but I just found your responses OTT considering where you are.

[ClarendonDem]

80. So Dems should question

The veracity of right wing women but accept that of left wing women? Do you think assaulting children is more of a crime than assaulting women?

[Squinch]

86. You're working so hard at this, but it just isn't happening.

[Tarheel_Dem]

103. Multiple accusers equals "there" there. One accuser? We don't know if there's any "there" there.

Stop twisting my words, and stop trying to acquit a reputed underage sexual predator. This is going to get very ugly, and I fear there will be more accusations and more Dem legislators may get caught up in some of it. But your OTT scoldings seem misplaced. Just sayin'.

[brush]

41. Maybe, but why did Roger Stone tweet last night that something was coming to Franken today?

And why did Hannity say to her today when she went on his show that she had shown the photo to her years ago?

Seems to me something was planned.

[Duppers]

64. No, we read.

👋

[democratisphere]

27. The current environment here and everyway has every male potentially liable.

[Squinch]

36. Poor dear.

[JNelson6563]

29. Ok, lesson #1, you must have missed this.

One favorite past time of many a liberal (the especially RIGHTEOUS ones) are always the first at the barricades when it comes to going after their own. And the more public a spectacle, the better! So much so I often read "Look at MEEEEE!! I'm THE FIRST to call for the head of one of my own cause I'm so VERY RIGHTEOUS!!" lol

Nevermind Franken's apology was real and the accuser has said she doesn't want him to resign. Forget that. We're on the march!!

Sad.

[mvd]

32. True. The more I read the more relieved I am

It was understandable for Democratic lawmakers to respond the way they did. Sexual misconduct is never trivial. But it looks like Franken is not that kind of person and the victim accepts his apology. Not a huge problem.

[Squinch]

35. Who here has called for his head? Do link to anyone who has done that.

Especially since the accuser accepted his apology. Really. Give us a link to all those posts that are making you so sad.

[SunSeeker]

72. Journalist Michelle Goldberg said Franken should resign.

She said it tonight on MSNBC on Chris Hayes' show. She also wrote a New York Times Op-Ed to that effect:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/16/opinion/al-franken-sexual-harassment.html?referer=http://www.google.com/

[Squinch]

79. I guess she's "many a liberal" then.

[SunSeeker]

85. Her Op-Ed is getting out-sized attention. She knew it would.

I am very disappointed in her. Franken responded to Tweeden's allegations well. Goldberg did not.

[Justitia]

94. She also wrote that ridiculous Juanita Brodderick column a few days ago.

[SunSeeker]

98. Missed that one. But I remember her wagging her finger at Hillary during the campaign.

She expressed great concern and outrage over Hillary's use pf a private email server, even though it broke no laws or rules. Gah.

[JNelson6563]

107. Lesson #2 internet bigger than DU

Did I IN ANY WAY mention DU or imply this was a DU thing? No, the ultra self righteous liberals can be found in lots of places. Check out "Twitter" , "Facebook" & scores of others (of which there are many).

Good to see you're willing to throw down in defense of obscure internet forum even over perceived slights. I wager you're quite the pitbull over actual criticisms of this incredibly important website.

Rock on.

[Squinch]

108. LOL! Well! You told me! Twitter and facebook must be SO much more important

than DU! How could I not have known that???

I guess I really needed your lessons on how to correctly complain about other liberals complaining about other liberals.

[JNelson6563]

109. I find self righteous liberals

Highly annoying, self-promoting fools that tend to do more harm than good in their quest to be recognized as the paragons of virtue they think themselves to be. Found all over internet along with their enablers/defenders/admirers.

Run along little one.

[Squinch]

110. ... he said self-righteously...

[Squinch]

31. Two things:

First: I haven't seen people here being willing to accept the woman's word on what happened. What I saw was people saying, "Do not dismiss her accusation out of hand." Big difference from what you describe. Then Franken himself came out with his apology in which he accepted responsibility for having done something that was inappropriate.

Second: I can't speak for anyone else, but I would not dream of dismissing an accuser out of hand because I don't like her social profile. That's what Trump Republicans do. I don't. I'm better than they are.

At this point, more of the story has come out, the accuser has accepted Franken's apology and what I see here are people mostly saying, "Ok, that's done."

But no, no one here has "convicted" Franken at any point in this.

[Raine1967]

51. +1

There are times when nuance is needed, you get that, Squinch.

[Squinch]

53. .

[Blue_Tires]

34. We like falling on our own swords

Since Franken has owned up, apologized multiple times, had that apology accepted with no ill will from the victim multiple times and called for an investigation on himself in an eight-hour span, it would be nice if we could turn the national attention back to Moore (who is pretty much comparing himself to Jesus and telling the world that little 14-year-old mallsluts are just begging to get jizzed by grown-assed men) and Trump (who allegedly raped a 13-year-old and threatened her and her family into silence)

[Binkie The Clown]

37. We have to cave so as not to appear biased.

That's the Democratic way. Heaven forbid we should let ourselves be seen as supporting a fellow Democrat. That's not how we roll.

[Oneironaut]

42. Its not a gag, though. Its not funny at all.

This is no more of a gag than a bully punching his or her victim and then claiming that they were just fooling around. It’s humiliating...

If the woman in the picture says she was humiliated, then I believe her. I don’t understand the downplaying of how serious this is. At the very least, it was sexual harassment.

Franken wasn’t “caught up” in anything! He chose to pose for that picture. Nobody made him do it.

If we’re serious about gender equality and stopping harassment, then our side will have “casualties” too. Many will deserve it.

[Squinch]

57. I think his apology made it clear that he gets that. He is one of the few in

this discussion who is not saying, "Hey, it was a joke, it's OK!!"

In his apology, he is saying that he's grossed out by his own action and he now understands that it's not OK even to joke about groping a sleeping woman.

Going forward, this makes him very valuable to those of us who want powerful voices against all kinds of sexual harassment. Even the "joking" kind.

[Lisa0825]

44. I don't necessarily judge someone based on one report on ANYONE, unless there is evidence,

and that photo was NOT evidence. He was totally hamming it up for the camera. If he were really groping her, he would not have been posing for a pic.

One incident could be a lie, or one bad mistake. What I believe is 1) evidence 2) corroboration 3) a pattern of behavior.

Anyone could report anyone for anything. Someone could fall and break their arm and say I pushed them, and file charges for assault. No witnesses, no evidence, am I automatically guilty, even though I have never assaulted anyone before?

[marble falls]

54. I am shocked how angry this thread has gotten.

[djg21]

56. Because he admitted it?

This isn’t a rush to judgment. We know with certainty that he engaged in conduct that was at best boorish, juvenile and inappropriate. The only questions remaining are the ones about his future plans and whether he can manage to rehabilitate himself. I hope he can. We all do stupid things in our lives that we later come to regret.

The photo of Franken suggests to me that he wasn’t being predatory, like Moore and Trump, but instead was trying to get laughs (uncomfortable ones?) by engaging in raunchy, frat-boy humor. Franken was right when he said it was not funny.

Hopefully this is the one-time aberration and no other women (or men) come out with credible stories of sexual misconduct on the part of Franken. That would be his end.

[Squinch]

60. His accuser accepted his apology. I believe his request for an ethics inquiry was made

because he knows there is nothing else to find, and he wants it on record that this was a (creepy and misguided) attempt at humor and the accuser was in on the "joke."

Given his apology, do we really need to talk about "rehabilitation?" I don't think so. His apology made it clear to me that he now "gets it" more than about 40% of DUers get it.

[Corvo Bianco]

58. I agree with you. I feel that Senator Franken is not a creeper.

But this is new... the next few days will tell a lot. Credible stories will start piling up, or not. That's how it goes, we've seen so many of these shows.

[Atticus]

61. Thank you. Common sense in short supply here recently. nt

[Polly Hennessey]

63. Agree Trof

We may be overreacting to any and all accusations. From the information so far it is indeed a gag photo. All the men in my family have been military. All have been in combat. My two husbands were fighter pilot and Special Forces/Army Ranger, respectively. Boy, did we do some silly things. Don’t know what the answers are or what the outcome will be when we are able to stand back from all this with a clearer view. My fear is that it is edging closer to a point where the answers will slip away and, as if we had been standing still, nothing will be changed. Men do need to pay attention to their treatment of women. The worry is that men will stop being at ease around women and begin to keep us at arms length just in case their behavior is seen as akin to sexual assault.

[montanacowboy]

65. Damn Straight

Seems like the filth known as Roger Stone was ahead of the curve

They knew it was coming

I call bullshit

[SunSeeker]

73. K & R

[Pepsidog]

74. Once again are Dems going to accept this false equivalency?

“If true”, Franken’s conduct does not compare to Roy Moore’s lifetime of predatory behavior. Prowling the malls for teen girls and comedy sketches at a USO show where Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders were featured are not the same. Stay strong Sen. Franken

[yurbud]

77. Al could bridge the divide between the corporate and progressive Dems as presidential candidate

Maybe the Republicans figured that out before the Democratic leadership did.

[unhip white guy]

78. REC!!!!!

I wish I could do a thousand more!

[OliverQ]

81. A lot of suspicious things about this case. The woman agreed to the kiss and was playing

along with the skit. Apparently Franken went too far, or did something she didn't like?

But then we see Roger Stone tweeted about this yesterday, so who tipped him off? This accuser has been on Sean Hannity 17 times. And she's already accepted Franken's apology.

It's just all bizarre. I'll be so pissed if he has to resign over this, while Trump and probably Moore get to assault children and get away with it.

[tenderfoot]

87. If Franken was an abuser, there would have been rumors going back decades

BTW, I don't believe the allegations against George Takei either.

[womanofthehills]

97. Randi Rhodes worked with him for yrs at Air America and she seems to think the story is suspicious

[Lazy Daisy]

90. I have a saying lately

Good people do bad things
Bad people do good things
It's easier these days to know the difference




I believe Senator Franken to be a good person.

[cwydro]

91. Thank you.

A disturbing trend here.

[Nitram]

99. I haven't rushed to judgment on Al Franken,

On the contrary, I will defend him until he is proven guilty. He is a good person, an ally of women's rights, and a comedian who forsook his comedic talents for the greater good he could do as a Senator.

[mchill]

100. Someone told me

there are more stories. I believe this person and this person was in a position to know. Having said this, I think today's story doesn't even come close to the deeds of Ray Moore or Donald Trump. I think most of it could be viewed as a misunderstanding that should have been dealt with on the spot OR worse, spun for a political reason, though I don't like to discount these women's stories. I thought the fact that he owned up to it, I very much appreciated.

[DinahMoeHum]

104. Big fat hairy difference between a comedy gig gone raunchy. . .

. . .and statutory rape.

[mythology]

106. Have you been reading a different DU?

Most everybody, including your post, are jumping to the conclusion that he's innocent and never did anything wrong.

[Corgigal]

112. Me personally

as a woman, I should always give women the benefit of the doubt.

Then the Duke lacrosse allegations happened. That all stopped, now I don't give benefit of the doubt so quickly. However, every time a woman gets caught in a lie it puts all women in a bad light. That always pisses me off, and that crap sabotages the real victims.

[Joe941]

113. Agreed. Franken is not the enemy - Moore is!

[oberliner]

114. "Everything I know and have read about him tells me he is not this guy."

That's what the RW-ers say when someone they like is accused.