This message was self-deleted by its author

[NCTraveler]

This message was self-deleted by its author (NCTraveler) on Wed Nov 29, 2017, 09:16 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[ProudLib72]

1. Heresy She Wrote

It is difficult to completely eradicate this type of old school thinking.

[True Dough]

2. She's 92

Comes from a different era, and maybe her faculties aren't 100 per cent intact.

[ecstatic]

3. Yep. nt

[jodymarie aimee]

5. agreed

leave her alone....you sound like banshees.....

[NCTraveler]

9. I'll ask you the same.

What age must one be in order to qualify for a free pass when justifying rape?

Second, how did you come up with agreeing on her mental diagnosis as a means to accept her promotion of women being at fault in some instances of rape?

[True Dough]

10. Maybe you should be grilling people at old-age homes

if you're so bent on social justice among nonagenarians.

[NCTraveler]

12. I don't consider asking you to elaborate on your agreement with the other poster...

to be "grilling". It's something you literally agreed with.

She is in an "old-age" home? I had no idea. Is that where you get your information that she isn't all there mentally?

[True Dough]

14. And most people

don't consider it very classy to give a "fu-k you" to a 92-year-old. Disagree with her? Sure! Express it that way? It lacks civility.

[NCTraveler]

17. So now we've moved on to "classy".

This little lady doesn't give a fuck if you think she is classy.

"It lacks civility."

There seems to be our difference. I think excusing rape lacks civility. Fuck doesn't seem to bother me as bad.

You still completely avoided that which you agreed with above.

[True Dough]

20. Your wrath is better saved for

the Weinsteins, Ailes and Moores of the world. But rage on at the old lady, if you insist...

[NCTraveler]

21. "Wrath"

I've got plenty of time don't need to dismiss someone laying partial blame on women for being raped because of Weinstein, Ailes and Moore. What a strange statement.

[LanternWaste]

27. Your deft movement of the goalposts is bemusing

Your deft movement of the goalposts is bemusing. And yet still leaves the answer blank to the relevant question.

You'll allege otherwise, no doubt, regardless of who you pretend someone's wrath is better served towards (I get it-- without pretense, many have little else to offer)..

[True Dough]

30. Can't make heads or tails of your post

I noted above that it's fine to disagree with old Angela. I certainly wouldn't give her a pat on the back for her misguided statement. Offering a "fu-k you" to the elderly lady because you find her views dated or unacceptable is over the top, however.

[WinkyDink]

58. Do you think Angela reads here?

[True Dough]

64. Wouldn't matter to me

I'm expressing my genuine thoughts on the matter regardless (and I certainly don't expect Angela does scan threads on the DU).

[Doodley]

72. I concur. There is an irony in the use of foul language to attack Lansbury who is talking about

standards from the past compared to now.

[True Dough]

73. Thanks, Doodley

We should be able to hold our heads high here at the DU. Keep the bar elevated while maintaining our values and principles.

[Doodley]

47. Where does she justify rape?

[obamanut2012]

53. You are 100% right -- ignore them

She is still sharp enough to be making films and TV shows, so she has to own what she said.

And, fuck this "it was a different time" garbage. It isn't a different time NOW.

[FSogol]

7. My feeling too. n/t

[NCTraveler]

8. At what age do we simply give people a free pass?

Different era and all. Can you define the era you are willing to state this for? Does 70 make the cut? 75? 80?

"maybe her faculties aren't 100 per cent intact"

Maybe they are. You literally gave her two excuses, each covering all of the bases when looked at independently.

[cwydro]

43. My mom died at 90.

She’d have said the same. She truly loved men and would always give them the benefit of the doubt.

Not for assault of course; it was just the era.

She was even grabbed by some unknown man as a teenager in Wales. She got a flat on her bike and was caught by darkness walking it home. He just grabbed her.

She told me what she remembered most was that she simply could not scream. She bit him hard and rode the bike home - flat tire and all. Never knew where he went.

Told me the story in my early teens, and it terrified me for her. She shrugged it off, though it was clear how frightened she was.

Mom had night terrors throughout her life; I always wondered if that was why.

[True Dough]

44. That's an awful situation that your mom found herself in, cwydro

Little wonder if it terrified her for the rest of her life. And, yes, the way many women responded to being attacked several decades ago is not near the same as the outlook today.

My wife was sexually assaulted in her early 20s while working the night shift at a convenience store. Although that was almost 30 years ago, whenever she sees an item in the news where a sexual predator is apprehended, she tries to make a mental connection to her own case, which went unsolved. She wonders if the monster who attacked her was ever brought to justice, whether he's dead or if he's maybe still wandering around out there.

[cwydro]

46. My mom was a tough lady.

I miss her.

[Drahthaardogs]

57. That is the first thing I thought when I read this.

Her era was different.

[saidsimplesimon]

4. Angela, I am ashamed for you.

This is not about blaming those who are "attractive". Her words are ugly, cruel and stupid.

[lunatica]

6. Is the 14 year old girl partially at fault because she's pretty?

How the fuck does she define sexual harassment?

[Doodley]

11. I agree with her to some extent.

[NCTraveler]

13. You're not alone. nt.

[LanternWaste]

31. Very, very provocative for women to leave the house unveiled.

Very, very provocative for women to leave the house unveiled, with bare arms and naked ankles.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other... "to some extent."

[Doodley]

48. I don't think that is the point she is making.

[obamanut2012]

54. Then you should be ashamed of yourself

And are on the wrong site.

[Doodley]

66. You can cut out the self-righteous insults.

[yardwork]

60. What do you agree with?

Rape and sexual assault aren't caused by feeling attracted to somebody. Assault is caused by people who like to hurt and dominate another person.

I suggest that you learn more about rape and sexual assault. It's about dominance and cruelty, not attraction.

[Doodley]

65. I think she is talking about the culture we are living in now. We have been manipulated to

be insecure by how we look and to be obsessed by self-image. Media images and commercials tell us we have to be skinny, have perfect skin, have the whitest teeth.

Teenage girls are dying every day from anorexia, billions are spent on dental cosmetics and perfecting the way we look, girls are bullied on social media by their peers for being a little overweight or wearing the wrong make up. This isn't something that happens on the fringes. It happens all the time in a nation that has become consumed by the aesthetic.

The result is that we have gone from the liberation of women to the enslavement of women who are objectifying themselves in an attempt to feel secure. I think this is what Angela Lansbury is talking about. Women themselves are putting themselves on a cosmetic, superficial pedestal and shouldn't, therefore, be surprised if some men see them in the same way. That is not an excuse for rape. Angela Lansbury has not said that, but it is a commentary on how women see themselves and how many men see women.

[Bettie]

16. At 92, I accept

that she grew up in a very different time than we live in now.

She's steeped in the culture of that time, so I give her a pass as an old lady and realize that it is sad that some younger people still think that way.

She's an example of both how things have changed and how they've stayed the same.

[OnDoutside]

18. That's about the size of it.

[NCTraveler]

19. "She grew up in that time"

She has also been alive for the last twenty years. I really dislike this argument. It completely excuses Trump and a number of others.

I know you would never excuse Trump. Still, the argument does just that.

[Bettie]

23. She's a product of hollywood in her younger years

She was incredibly beautiful at a time when young, beautiful women were a commodity and I'm betting she had to walk a fine line to avoid the casting couch (if she was able to). Who knows what she has dealt with in her life.

I find it sad and wonder if she feels responsible for things that have happened to her.

And it is a reminder that we need to be different, because we don't live in that time.

It's like people judging people who lived in the 1930's by today's standards. They fail, every time, because society was very different. Society changes so fast now that sometimes, things that were OK two weeks ago are wrong.

No, I don't excuse Trump or people who sexually abuse others, but I have empathy for women who grew up in a time when it was taken for granted that women would be taken advantage of, sexually harassed and abused as a matter of course and who had little or no recourse.

[NCTraveler]

28. I will judge anyone blaming rape on women. Anyone.

"but I have empathy for women who grew up in a time when it was taken for granted that women would be taken advantage of, sexually harassed and abused as a matter of course and who had little or no recourse."

This is simply not an argument that holds up. That statement can still be viewed as accurate today. Not as oppressive but still extremely oppressive.

I also don't see how your argument can be applied honestly. It could literally be used for Trump, Clinton, Warren, Biden, etc....

[Bettie]

37. I accept this argument from old WOMEN

not men.

Men know that rape is wrong and some of them still do it. They know that harassment is wrong and many still do it and I can't even begin to understand men who choose to masturbate in front of others because I didn't even know that was a thing.

Look, I know several older women who still struggle with "How did I cause it? or "Why couldn't I stop it?" feelings about things that happened to them as young or not-so-young women. I have those feelings myself, all the time.

I feel sympathy for them as a person who was blatantly told that I was lying or asking for it when my own father molested/raped me. You know how much recourse I had? NONE. I had to bide my time until I could leave and never return because no one gave a single fuck about me.

I'm glad people are more willing to listen to girls and women now.

I feel no sympathy or empathy for men who rape or abuse women, but I do for the women.

You are welcome to your own opinions, as am I.

[sprinkleeninow]

24. She may have 'grown up in that time',

but she has been living a good part of her adult life 'in this time'!

And as a 'actress'. Dammm. No pass.

[NCTraveler]

25. I'm really shocked at this line of excuse. nt.

[ismnotwasm]

22. So a beautiful 19 year old girl

In a bikini at a beach is responsible for her own sexual harassment? Am I reading this right? And grown men have so little control, that they are all like Trump, “automatically” attracted to beautiful women, just moves on them without consent, this is the idea here?

So, what about the sexual harassment women who are considered less than attractive experience, what is their responsibility?

I’m going to have to vehemently disagree here with Angela. Men can control themselves.

[FarCenter]

45. Men actually cannot control whether they are sexually aroused by the sight of a beautiful woman.

It is an automatic reflex action, like salivating at the sight of food.

[phleshdef]

70. Getting a boner because you see a hot girl and acting on it are 2 entirely different things.

My dick does not control me.

[Doodley]

49. I think she is isn't talking about a specific 19 year old, but a culture where women themselves are

presenting themselves as aesthetic commodities.

[obamanut2012]

55. Lots of posters in this thread agreeing with her

DU sucks sometimes.

[Doodley]

69. It sucks to hear more than one point of view?

[mythology]

26. Nope. As a guy, I've yet to see a woman so stunning

I couldn't help but sexually harass, assault or rape her. Doesn't matter if she's Helen of Troy, I don't have the right to do that.

[ismnotwasm]

33. +infinity

[LanternWaste]

29. At 92, we possess the wisdom to change the archaic and bigoted perspectives

At 92, we possess the wisdom to change the archaic and bigoted perspectives we grew up with.

Her age then, is of no excuse-- indeed, her age should have been a curb to the blatant idiocy of her sentiment.

[tonedevil]

32. What were you like...

when you were 92?

[LanternWaste]

35. I'll be less intolerant and less idiotic than I am now.

I'll be less intolerant and less idiotic than I am now. It stands to reason.

Petulance leads to a higher risk of diabetes, by the way...

[tonedevil]

39. So you are speculating...

what you will be like and extrapolating that to what someone else should be like? I can assure my grandmother, who I was the primary care giver for in the 15 years before she went into care facility for about 2 years, did not become less idiotic nor more tolerant. From what I observed when I visited her in the care home that is far from a default in aging. You may well age into a wise old person with patience to spare, but it is far from a guarantee.
I'd be interested in seeing the higher diabetes risk due to petulance study(s).

[MFM008]

34. The view from

1940s......

[pintobean]

36. Maybe she was reading

some of the threads here about Leeann Tweeden.

[NCTraveler]

42. This. Nt

[Dorian Gray]

52. Wham

[yardwork]

62. I didn't see any thread suggesting that Franken's behavior was caused by Tweeden's seduction.

Plenty of us think that Tweeden might be making shit up in collusion with rat fuckers like Roger Stone in an effort to salvage Roy Moore's seat.

[NewJeffCT]

38. I don't care if a woman is naked and drunkenly walking down a busy street at midnight

It is still not the woman's fault if she is assaulted and raped and it never should be.

That said, Lansbury is 92 years old and started in the movies in the 1940s, so it was an entirely different era. Based on her age, I would give her a one time pass on the issue.

[Doodley]

50. You don't care if a woman is naked in a busy street at midnight. Do you not see a problem there?

[phleshdef]

71. The only problem there is your reading comprehension.

[displacedtexan]

40. The woman had a featured role in Gaslight, FFS!

She's forever old (which is wonderful) and has probably dealt with more crap during her career than any of us can imagine. Times have and will continue to change.

[tirebiter]

41. i belive Al was set up

But I can't give coumtenancr to what Lansbury says. The situation as she describes it would not absolve Franlen. I'm of the firm belief he needs no absolution

[treestar]

51. However old she is, she has lived thorough the past 40 years

and seriously should know that sexual attractiveness has nothing to do with rape.

[leftyladyfrommo]

56. I am 70 and I understand what she is saying.

When I was growing up women were really held accountable . We dressed very modestly. Women who dressed seductively were asking for it. Dressing seductively was an invitation to rape.

Of course, that was wrong. But that was the culture back then. And we all knew it. And we all knew to abide by the rules.

Women's lives were so restricted then. You had a handful of choices. Professionally you could be a teacher, a secretary, a clerk, a waitress, a nurse, a social worker. That was about it. And then you got married abd and spent your life raising kids.

And God forbid if you got pregnant and weren't married.

Our culture has some problems but it is a whole lot better than it was. We still have a ways to go.

[Doodley]

67. You are right. A girl who dresses as a tart, shouldn't be surprised if some men think she

is easy. That is not an excuse for rape. You dress according to the environment. If you are on a building site, you wear a hard hat to protect yourself from things that could hit you. If you are in the rain in winter, you dress to protect from the weather. If you are going to be around men, take precautions, dress appropriately. Dress like a slut, drink and flirt, and then go to a film star's or film producer's house or hotel room alone - well don't be surprised if he tries to make some moves. Angela Lansbury is saying there are two sides, but I don't think she is making any excuses for anyone. She's saying women need to take personal responsibility for their own safety.

[WinkyDink]

59. My mother died at 91, faculties intact. I don't think she would

have agreed with Angela Lansbury.

Wasn't it recently announced that AL was hired for some Broadway production?

[Orrex]

61. Blame the woman? Now THAT'S a tale as old as time.

[SummerSnow]

63. Blame the women for being attractive? Sexual assault and harassment has NOTHING

to do with how attractive you are, it's about power and control of the predator over the victim. You haven't learned anything, Ms. Lansbury.

[Doodley]

68. Do you really think that is the point she is making?