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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMass murderers often not mentally ill, but seeking revenge, experts say
Those who commit mass murders are often angry and isolated, but usually aren't mentally ill, violence experts said Friday after a shooting during the midnight screening of "The Dark Knight Rises" in an Aurora, Colo., movie theater. James Holmes was arrested as a suspect in the shooting that killed 12 people and wounded 59 others.
“It takes a certain degree of clear-headedness to plan and execute a crime like this,” said James Alan Fox, a criminal justice professor at Northeastern University in Boston, who has written several books on mass murder and school violence.
There are exceptions – Jared Loughner, who shot and killed six people in Arizona in 2011, gravely injuring then-member of Congress Gabrielle Giffords, was diagnosed with schizophrenia. Mental health experts say people with mental illness are not any more likely than anyone else to become violent, however.
Mass murderers “often times feel that they are right and everybody else is wrong,” Fox said in a telephone interview. “They really tend to externalize blame, to see other people as responsible for their problems."
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HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)If someone shoots up a crowded movie theatre, they ain't quite right in the head.
Ty Templeton
(26 posts)Obviously, if you're capable of shooting a room full of strangers, there's something "wrong" with you, but the point is that it's not folks who are literally "not in their right mind" who do this, but people with terrible impulse control. It's a question of responsibility and mental competence. If you're capable of planning the crime, and planning an escape, you're capable of knowing your actions were wrong, and therefore can be punished for them. Manson, for instance, was motivated by utterly insane ideas of a coming race war in the USA, but his actions were competent in PLANNING the killings he was responsible for, even if the motivations were insane. It's so the shooter can't be shipped to a hospital instead of a prison.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Here in FL the bar for criminally insane is set very high. You litterally have to be babbling out of your mind and unaware of your surroundings. Two cases:
1) The Miami face eating zombie - the attack was a sudden impulse, with no prior planning. He did not flee the scene, and continued to chew thhe victims face even after the cops showed up. He likely met the legal standard for criminal insanity.
2) A couple years ago in Tampa, a homeless man shot and killed a cop. Trial was a couple months ago. Homeless guy was quite obviously schitzophrenic. However, he had hidden his guns under a blanket in his shopping cart... he was aware he couldn't walk around with them openly. After the shooting, he fled the scene and hid... he was aware he had committed a serious crime. His insanity plea was thrown out.
These guys (and Holmes) should have been institutionalized before they committed their violent crimes. How do we do that? I dont know. Holmes situation is especially difficult since he showed no prior signs of violence... although his mother wasn't surprised. Ill be interested in that angle, if it comes out.
Nostradammit
(2,921 posts)To be that out of balance in your thoughts is the very definition of "mentally ill."
One can be perfectly "clear-headed" regarding a physical task and still be stark raving mad.
FFS.
Quixote1818
(28,927 posts)
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)
steve2470
(37,457 posts)Not in the world I inhabit. ANYONE.... who murders total strangers for no good reason IS MENTALLY ILL. I am not talking about wartime. That's a totally different debate.
I shudder to think of a world where random violence is defined as "normal".
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)steve2470
(37,457 posts)World War II = a good reason, imo
Iraq War = definitely not whatsoever
TomClash
(11,344 posts)Doesn't that describe the average Fox News viewer?
caraher
(6,278 posts)I think the issue the experts are addressing is whether the attacker has a diagnosable mental illness, according to the recognized categories that are established for clinical practice. Simply because someone does something incredibly abhorrent doesn't mean they have a recognized disorder.
More importantly, there's also the legal question of whether mental illness can serve as an exculpatory factor in a trial. Surely we wouldn't want to set the precedent that mass murderers are, by definition, not guilty by reason of insanity! Was the perpetrator capable of telling right from wrong? Can they understand what's at stake when they're on trial? Do they have a mental illness that interferes with either of those things? These experts are simply saying the answer to those questions is typically "no."
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)Nay
(12,051 posts)was her son who had done the shooting. I bet she had been trying to get him help for years with little success, and once he was an adult, she had no recourse.
And, of course, as others have said, the legal definition and medical definition of "mentally ill" are different.
DCKit
(18,541 posts)We need to find a different difference. We're pissed, but we're not "them".
tclambert
(11,085 posts)
Mimosa
(9,131 posts)I've no doubt Holmes, *the alleged mass murderer*, deep inside has a sense of fulfillment. He's famous now, he's IMPORTANT. An anti-hero. At least in his mind. He deliberately chose evil.
I've no sympathy for him. My sympathy is for the victims and their heartbroken families. Everybody in that theater will suffer from PTSD to some degree.
The nation as a whole is suffering to a lesser degree.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)They are many people who get angry and want to seek revenge and might want to murder someone but dont do it. Its only the mentally ill that actually go through with it.
Quixote1818
(28,927 posts)amfortas the hippie
(46 posts)I would put "feeling shat upon by the world, in general" in the Depression column.
No excuse, at all...but we're looking for Why's...
In this sense, there is a commonality, between this and Columbine...
Everybody seems to either jump on Guns...I jumped on access to mental health services(Colorado looks like Texas, in both areas).
Neither are the whole story.
HopeHoops
(47,675 posts)
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)"James Alan Fox, a criminal justice professor at Northeastern University in Boston..."
Yes, not a psychiatrist.
If he was a psychiatrist he would know that the definition of mental illness is not the same as the definition of legal competence.
And he would not equate "mental illness" and "schizophrenia."
These shooters are always quite mentally ill. They are, however, usually not so mentally ill as to be incapable of understanding the consequences of their actions.
Not everyone who is competent to stand trial is mentally healthy.
DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)Competency to stand trial has to do with one's ability at the time of the trial to understand the proceedings and assist in his or her defense. The insanity defense, although the exact definition varies by jurisdiction, has to do with whether at the time of the crime the defendant was mentally able to understand the consequences of his actions or as it is often stated, to "know right from wrong". That being said, the agenda of Mr. Fox is essentially to make sure that there is never a possibility of an insanity defense in any case, which, by the way, has essentially been the case in this country for the last 30 years.
dkf
(37,305 posts)I didn't think of that.
DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)of "mental health experts" who do nothing but testify for prosecutors that everyone is sane, in order to overcome the insanity defense in criminal cases.
AngryOldDem
(14,061 posts)I'm no psychologist, but it's been mentioned in a lot of stories that Holmes was a standout student in high school, and then graduated with high honors at UC-Riverside, in a pretty demanding major. Then he couldn't get a job, other than working part time at McDonald's. Then, he goes off to another rigorous academic program, and was clearly failing at that.
Given that he most likely had known success for most of his life, perhaps his rage at these "failures" got to the point where he exploded.
Dunno. Whoever can know the true meaning behind such madness?
muriel_volestrangler
(101,295 posts)In this case, revenge seems an incredibly unlikely motivation. If he had attacked a university, or a business that didn't hire him - or even McDonald's if he thought they treated him crappily - then you might be able to characterise it as 'revenge'. Or someone he blamed for the state of the economy. But a random set of citizens?
And he planned this carefully, over a month or two. I don't think you can call it 'exploding'.
dkf
(37,305 posts)AngryOldDem
(14,061 posts)But I'm sure the frustration was building, and the theater was nearby and full of people on which to take out his rage.
When you're at the end of your rope, everyone you see appears to be much better off than you...including people at at movie theater.
down is up
(13 posts)Ever heard of MK Ultra? From what I understand, they are currently doing it in Gitmo 
Maybe that's why "they" got that dude in Bulgaria to "go off." "They" are looking for an excuse to start more wars because wars create chaos and "they" thrive on chaos.
This "Joker" guy was in NEURO (ding! ding! ding!) science...Wonder if he was asked to test any meds for Big Pharma? 
Lots of college students do it for extra moola...
aikoaiko
(34,165 posts)While it is true that most are not psychotic, most seem to be suffering under intense mental distress.
I think the professor may be splitting hairs.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)...are mental illnesses. I think I stumbled on that person's own diagnosis.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)Someone who feels that he or she is always right and everybody else is wrong, or who externalizes blame and holds other people responsible for their own problems, is definitely not right in the head. Those are signs of narcissistic personality disorder, which is very common among prison inmates.
