General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSomeone had to speak up. Turns out, that someone was me
Last edited Mon Dec 4, 2017, 02:30 PM - Edit history (1)
Our office has long been known for its relaxed and permissive policies. It's a small company, and a lot gets by that would never be permitted in a larger or more "corporate" environment. The general rule is that you don't make a joke at the expense of others, but it's perfectly okay to joke about your own hot flashes (for example). And don't ever be too explicit.
Like everything else, the culture comes from the top. The big boss (a middle-aged man) has an unfortunate habit of drifting into sexually explicit conversations, with our mostly-female staff. Some women think they're hilarious. Many don't and are offended by them. Some I overhear, and I don't particularly like them. I never participate, and will often close my office door. Other women use headphones to block out these conversations and remarks. I've discussed the situation with other women in the office, but nobody seems to have been able to come up with a good plan for putting a stop to the practice. The non-managers are afraid of reprisals. The managers, like myself, can't agree on what to do, how or when to do it. Everyone knows he means no harm. He's just clueless about his own inappropriateness. His big mouth gets ahead of his small brain.
Then last week, I happened to step into the main office (my office is down a corridor, so I often miss what's going on in the larger outer office world). Big boss and aide-de-camp VP are chatting to three women. I don't know exactly what they were discussing--I'm guessing that the jumping-off point of the discussion was the business with Matt Lauer, but I really didn't stop to check for context. All I heard was the big boss say, "she was sucking his dick." In front of three women, one of whom is a twenty-something sales associate with whom he travels to large trade shows.
I stopped in my tracks, and the five of them looked at me like a turd had just fallen into the punch bowl. Very clearly, and in measured tones, I said, "this conversation is inappropriate. It's got to stop. We cannot have conversation of this nature going on in the office, period." Big boss looked at me again, took a breath, and said, "noted. I'm going to finish my story now."
Furious at having been dismissed, I left the office and called big boss on his cell phone. I said that he was a fool not to realize how damaging to the company his thoughtless and inappropriate speech was. How many in the office found that talk offensive and went to great lengths to avoid having to overhear it. That he is a lawsuit waiting to happen, a lawsuit that will put 35 people out of work when he has to settle. That all it would take is one email to HR to wreck a company that it's taken three generations and 90 years to build. Once I put a dollar amount on it, he finally got it.
When I told my husband, he asked me why I didn't speak to big boss in private. Because I wanted witnesses. And, I wanted the women who participated in that conversation, willingly or unwillingly, to understand that inappropriate behavior must be challenged. That it is not ever okay for a person with power to abuse that power by subjecting others to offense. That we have a responsibility to open our mouths, or nothing will ever change.
You could say the risk to me was small. Maybe so. I doubt I would have been fired. I've been around a long time and everyone knows I have zero fucks to give. Maybe I was the only person who could have spoken truth to power in that situation, but that doesn't mean I wasn't scared shitless.
All I know is that the next time (and I hope there never is one) I overhear something that shouldn't be said in an office, I'll be less scared. Or maybe someone else will speak up.
We don't demolish the patriarchy with an atom bomb. We do it one human being at a time.
MineralMan
(146,320 posts)trueblue2007
(17,231 posts)Pacifist Patriot
(24,653 posts)electron_blue
(3,592 posts)genxlib
(5,528 posts)He couldn't fire you for fear of being sued for exactly what you warned him about.
If anything, you secured your position. Even if he had some other reason to fire you, his hands would be tied.
Nice job. You did the right thing
erronis
(15,314 posts)Who will speak up against this.
And against other forms of discrimination in the work place. Or on the playground, or anywhere.
unblock
(52,277 posts)the most common type of workplace harrassment lawsuit is actual based on reprisals after a complaint like this.
in the immediate aftermath of a complaint like this, you're correct in that, unless the boss is a complete idiot, he's not going to fire someone who makes a complaint for a while.
but there are many cases where such a boss later sidelines the complainant, passes them over for promotion, transfers them, or otherwise punishes them in smaller ways. workplace performance is often a combination of many factors, including subjective ones, so it's often possible to claim some other reason for the adverse treatment.
bosses hell-bent on firing a complainer but who aren't stupid legally will try to build a paper trail that justifies firing. he may assign a lot of tasks, perhaps with challenging deadlines, etc., to set the complainant up for failure.
so someone who complains really does have to worry, and should build a paper trail of their own, being sure to keep any praise but also keeping any explicit requirements, evidence of attendance and timely completion of tasks, etc.
and keep it at home or on personal devices, not company devices that could be taken away in an instant.
phrasing it in terms of risk to the business is key.
no matter how racist, sexist, bigoted bosses might be, even if they think they're right and would likely win a lawsuit, they don't want to waste their time getting deposed, they don't want to pay lawyers, and they don't want to run even a small risk of some stupid judge and/or jury "getting it wrong".
if they're otherwise sensible businesspeople, they'll thank you for bringing the risk to their attention.
MLAA
(17,310 posts)AJT
(5,240 posts)emulatorloo
(44,156 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Good for you! You did the right thing!
forgotmylogin
(7,530 posts)from how you described it if the Boss had said "You're right, I apologize, this is inappropriate to discuss in public" and stopped the conversation, you might not have had to take it higher.
lapislzi
(5,762 posts)He didn't like being called out in front of junior employees, but I had to do it that way in order to both have witnesses, and to demonstrate that the calling out is necessary.
The follow up was to remind him just how exposed he was in terms possible repercussions for the company. Framing it as being about the good of the company made all the difference in this case.
I like my job. I would hate to see our company damaged because of a preventable incident. As I said to Boss on the phone, "I've got your back, buddy, even if you don't like it."
dlk
(11,574 posts)3catwoman3
(24,023 posts)We are socialized never to hurt anyone's feelings, even if it's some asshole we don't know in a public place like a grocery store, a movie theater, or a parking lot.
Example - For years, I would speed up if some nameless jerk driver behind me would honk and flash lights because they thought I was driving too slowly in hazardous weather conditions. Didn't wat to make anybdy mad at me. How stupid was that? Now, I say a mental, "Fuck you," and keep my prudent pace.
BoneyardDem
(1,202 posts)what is going on in pubic right now, bolsters your argument and is a very visible, multi company, cause and effect process. They need to clean up their shit.
saidsimplesimon
(7,888 posts)Thank you for taking action, it gives many the courage to come forward and dispel the fear of victims.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,331 posts)Here's what I tell people that say it was "just a joke" or "we were among friends":
Picture yourself in a deposition trying to explain "the context" one year later. Context and humor never translates when the lawyers are involved.
The lawyer we hired for training said "once those words come out of your mouth, they become a big bag of money floating in the air"
A friend of mine, an African American woman, was fired for saying a birthday cake "looked like a black dick". This was in a mortgage sales office setting where tons of "grab ass" talk was constantly floating around. The only difference was she dinged a loan officer for fucking up a loan that cost the branch $30k -- the loan officer didn't lock a customer's jumbo loan and "played the float" and got crushed in a deteriorating market. Then he lied about it and got caught lying when the customer produced documentation the loan should have been locked.
Well, six months AFTER my friend made that off color remark in a lunch room, the words suddenly became "a hostile work environment". There was no denying she said what she said and "the atmosphere didn't age well when she was interviewed by HR. She was fired. Iirc, no severance or unemployment either.
unblock
(52,277 posts)Hassin Bin Sober
(26,331 posts)He may or may not have been required to pay the loss on the loan. Of course the district manager let the lies slide because the guy was a high producer. This was pre mortgage crash when people were earning $500-600k plus.
unblock
(52,277 posts)especially if she can document that such talk was common.
it's proper to take action to clean up a hostile environment, but the punishment itself can't be discriminatory. don't know if that's the case here, but it sounds like it wasn't entirely legitimate work-related at least.
that said, retaliation for something work-related *is* legal, it's only a problem if they singled her out on the basis of race, e.g.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)That said this is part of the problem when we weaponize talk.
I certainly don't want to see women harassed but in the situation described was it harassment? Maybe me being male I am missing something here but I find it a huge stretch to call that harassment or a hostile work environment.
Sounds much more like twisting the intention of regulation.
yardwork
(61,678 posts)See my post in this thread. Talk like that in front of employees absolutely creates a hostile work environment. There are no good options for employees hearing the boss make sexually explicit comments. If you laugh and go along with it, people assume you're sleeping with him. If you complain, you're a prude and a killjoy.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)Especially a female saying it. You are a prude and a killjoy.
Absolutely no question about it and if you want to live in a world where that is an unsafe work environment have at it but count me out.
yardwork
(61,678 posts)As my post clearly stated, I'm talking about bosses making sexually explicit comments in front of their employees. You said that you thought that was fine.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)Because you responded to me responding to someone talking about a woman being fired for saying a cake looks like a dick maybe you should read the subthread you are responding to in the first place
grantcart
(53,061 posts)You need to start a diary on every incident that you witness and every interaction you are involved in.
Write a note being as objective as you can (and you obviously are very gifted) and then email it to yourself so you have a contemporaneous record with a date stamp on it.
In the future if something goes south in your area you will be the one targeted even if it has nothing to do with your work product. You will need to be able to show a pattern of abuse and a motivation for retaliation. You might never need it but don't put yourself in a position where you have to pay for their mistakes.
Good luck.
bluestarone
(17,002 posts)1000% for sure
TeamPooka
(24,237 posts)lapislzi
(5,762 posts)Explaining that while I was not offended by the conversation, I believed it to be inappropriate and spoke up. It's on the record now should anyone else come forward.
SWBTATTReg
(22,154 posts)Thanks for sharing this story with us.
marble falls
(57,136 posts)no tapering off time at all.
marble falls
(57,136 posts)Delmette2.0
(4,168 posts)One woman (and man) at a time. One human person at a time.
lapislzi
(5,762 posts)Mira
(22,380 posts)and follow through.
I love your phrase of "zero fucks to give" will use it ASAP
I had a bumpersticker for a long time, here in the deep South
"Don't assume I share your prejudices"
calimary
(81,383 posts)Courage and guts. Nice job! And I hope you shamed the three women sitting there in that office listening and probably at least pretending they thought it was funny.
We're in a new era here. This shit is no longer funny, or acceptable, or defensible.
lapislzi
(5,762 posts)One of the women is very timid and would never speak up, although she always titters when these topics come up. The younger woman tries to play "one of the boys" tough, talking sports and trying to go 1/1 with upper management. The third woman was probably offended, but being young and shy, usually goes the headphone route.
The one I would worry most about is the young sales associate. As she travels often with either boss or VP, there is ample opportunity for things to go awry. I wouldn't count on her becoming an ally anytime soon, but one day she may not feel like playing with the big boys. She could bring down a world of hurt on the boss or Mr. #2...and no one can say they weren't warned.
DownriverDem
(6,230 posts)I say scary, because you could have been fired. You must be a very valuable employee. Most folks are "at will" employees They can be fired for anything. Many bosses would not want to be called out like that.
Ligyron
(7,637 posts)KY_EnviroGuy
(14,493 posts)how to be true gentlemen. A gentleman would never speak that sort of language to anyone, including other men.
We need to send around 75% of our men and boys to Gentleman's School, or else take their pickup trucks and guns away.
If I were caught speaking in front of ladies like that and my mom (rest in peace) found out, she would tell those gals to take a hickory switch to my backside.
Congrats for a good job and breaking the ice of impropriety at your workplace!
efhmc
(14,731 posts)these days. Respect for the dignity and feelings of other is totally gone.
sweatlee
(15 posts)Speak truth to power.
Upthevibe
(8,059 posts)niyad
(113,490 posts)those of us with zero fucks to give are the ones who have to be at the forefront, at least at the start. others will gain courage, and then we won't be the only ones out there!!
joanbarnes
(1,722 posts)LittleGirl
(8,287 posts)You did the right thing. I would have said something too. I used to work in IT and most of my colleagues were guys. Some were good ole boys and some were very respectable. I never put up with shit when I worked with them and I wasn't their favorite. I wasn't there to chum up to them, I had a job to do. I just wished I would have gotten paid and promoted like they did.
aikoaiko
(34,177 posts)Most of us know when we've been misbehaving at work.
Whether or not he changes his behavior will show whether he is basically a good guy who got himself into a bad habit or if he is really an offender who delights in offending.
spanone
(135,855 posts)Hekate
(90,751 posts)mountain grammy
(26,638 posts)Proud to know you on DU..
mgardener
(1,817 posts)As a nurse I was taught in our ethics class..
Do not say or write anything that you would not want to have to repeat in court. Be clear and concise.
It was a reminder that how you say and write things can come back to haunt you big time.
Men and women would do well to remember that.
And good for you for standing up for yourself and others.
doodsaq
(120 posts)Working in a big corporation for the last 20 years, I have *never* heard anyone in our management use sexually explicit language. I guess I'm lucky to be in a workplace where such behavior is grounds for immediate termination.
Hope he got a much needed wake up call.
spooky3
(34,462 posts)was a good guy, once said after I told an appalling story about my workplace, if you think thats bad, you should hear what they say when there are no women around. A depressing thought, but I got his point, that women may not see a lot of sexist BS.
And our team is 100% male.
Unfortunately I know this is probably the exception...But out company has a pretty good culture. I have been lucky to work with managers who have their heads on straight.
spooky3
(34,462 posts)and that youre in one of them.
TNNurse
(6,928 posts)Maybe the women in the room will learn from the experience. You spoke for them when they did not.
I agree with those who say make notes, keep records. He may just go underground and make sure you are not around when he says things like that. He may decide to retaliate later.
Be the woman all those women in work places need.
Thank you for what you said and did.
whathehell
(29,069 posts)denbot
(9,901 posts)Bravo lapislzi.
The_jackalope
(1,660 posts)You handled it thoughtfully, clearly and uncompromisingly. You did your boss an enormous favour, and if he's at all woke he'll realize it. You're right, the first time is the hardest. Next time (and there will probably be a next time), you'll have this experience to draw on.
Way to go!
Laffy Kat
(16,385 posts)I don't think reprisals are imminent, tho just in case, document everything!!
treestar
(82,383 posts)He knows you are right.
DangerousUrNot
(431 posts)Im proud of you. That was an awesome story.
ecstatic
(32,720 posts)NOT speaking up leads to more of the same. Thank you.
Tipperary
(6,930 posts)It is nice to read stories like this instead of so many negative things that are often posted. It restores my faith in people and I thank you for that.
ismnotwasm
(41,998 posts)Doreen
(11,686 posts)cwydro
(51,308 posts)Yes, spot on - one human being at a time.
yardwork
(61,678 posts)Long ago, I was that twenty-something employee who traveled with the inappropriate-story-telling boss for business. Because of his behavior (and past history), many people in the office assumed that I was sleeping with him. (I was not.) I told him what people were saying, and told him to stop making inappropriate comments in front of me. I don't know if it changed people's minds or not. It made minimal difference in his behavior. I quit shortly afterward.
I would have been very grateful if somebody else had called him on his behavior.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)It was to save face. He probably would've thought twice about such a story next time. Maybe not, but maybe.
Good going to say something. It takes a lot to speak up to a superior. I don't know if I would've been that brave. But I was never a manager.
Having said that...I hadn't heard that one of the women was giving Lauer a BJ. ???
lapislzi
(5,762 posts)As I said, I didn't wait around to check for context (not that it mattered), so I really couldn't say if they were talking about the Lauer story or something else. It was the story of the day, so I assumed. Celebrity gossip is a big deal in our office, for some reason. Half the time I don't even know who they're talking about. I don't understand the fascination with people who are famous for being famous, or with their physical attributes.
I have a couple of close office friends. We get together for breakfast on Fridays and talk about things like Tim Wise, epigenetics, the meanings of antifa...we're a small group.
Corvo Bianco
(1,148 posts)SunSeeker
(51,587 posts)pengillian101
(2,351 posts)Wow - that took guts - good job lapislzi!