There are certain things, straight people, no matter how well meaning, don't get to say or write

[dsc]

just like there are certain things, no matter how well meaning I may be, that I don't get to write about race. Joy's comments fall into the category of things no straight person gets to write. Yes, I know she was pointing to Crist's alleged hypocrisy. Yes, I know she favored marriage equality. Yes, I like much of the work she is doing now. None of that, turns the words she wrote on numerous occasions, published for anyone to see, into acceptable writings.

I don't think she should be fired, even though a white gay person who posted similarly racist language while criticizing Clarence Thomas for voting against the Voting Rights Act most assuredly would be. I do think she should have apologized which she did both to Crist and to the LGBTQ community. But I also think, straight liberals need to stop thinking it is perfectly OK to use gay stereotypes to criticize those we don't like. It isn't. Just like it isn't OK to use racist stereotypes or sexist ones to criticize those we don't like. Crist was wrong on marriage equality in 2007 and if he is indeed a gay man (and I have no clue if he is or isn't) then in addition to being wrong, he was a huge hypocrite. But that can be pointed out without calling a wedding gayer than George Takei, calling an adult male miss, discussing pink flamingos being used as decorations, or any of the other stereotypes she resorted to. Just like one can talk about Clarence Thomas' hypocrisy without mentioning racial stereotypes. More importantly for this forum, you all can do that as well.

[mythology]

1. I agree

[dsc]

2. thanks

[Kentonio]

3. Very well put.

[BoneyardDem]

4. Do straight people get to call out hypocricy the likes of Craig R ID?

[dsc]

6. If they can do so without resorting to anti gay stereotypes

then sure.

[yardwork]

5. Joy apologized. Let's not let this distract us, m'kay?

[dsc]

7. I have no problem with her

as I said, but I do have a problem with those who are claiming this language is OK, and yes people have said precisely and exactly that. I can, and will quote people who have done so if you challenge me on that point.

[yardwork]

8. This whole thing is manufactured to create division among Democrats.

I'm gay. I'm not playing.

[Maven]

14. +1

The motivation matters. And I have zero faith in people like Nomiki Konst to defend our rights. And I also resent our struggle being co-opted and weaponized by the red rose brigade.

I do have faith that Joy is an ally.

[dsc]

17. They didn't go into a time machine and make her post that crap

she did that all by herself and the fact it is now being used to attack her is exhibit A in why she should have refrained from doing so. She is deservedly having to eat crow for this the fact her attackers have poor motives is irrelevant to the conversation.

[kcr]

21. You don't think people change?

You think it's totally fair to go digging as far back as people can go for dirt just to smear people? I would hope not, dsc. This is nothing but smear. It isn't sincere.

[HoustonDave]

36. Slippery slope

If you go saying something reasonable like "people make mistakes and change" you will destroy the political cottage industry of seeking ANY embarrassing incident in any candidiate's life for political gain. Not to mention ruining most of the arguments against Roy Moore. What is a reasonable time frame? 10 years, 20? Inquiring minds want to know!

[dsc]

37. I would be willing to bet my next paycheck

that she would be close to the first in line to critique a white gay pundit who used words as racist as hers are homophobic to criticize Clarence Thomas for his hypocrisy even if those words had been written in 1990, hers were written in 2007 for comparison. Even in 2007, while dinosaurs were roaming the earth, she should have known, and I would be willing to bet was surely told, that her words were a big pile of homophobic crap. All of that said, I have no problem with she has changed being offered in her defense, but I have a huge problem with the words aren't homophobic being offered in her defense.

[Demsrule86]

19. One word...Sanders.

This is why hopefully he won't run in 20. He would probably do worse but could divide us.

[kcr]

22. Absolutely. This alone is a reason why I hope he doesn't.

He doesn't care.

[Demsrule86]

25. I know.

[Alice11111]

27. Language is disgusting, and it should not be used, but

she has grown up & apologized. We have to let people transform when they recognize they are/were wrong.

Plus, like Sam Seder, Al Franken, and others, they search back for very old stuff to take our people down. If she were still doing it, and she had not apologized, she should be fired. IMO, she has changed and moved on.

[MuseRider]

9. I agree.

Nice to agree with you again old friend!

I had to learn really quickly what was not ok to say. Not that I ever meant to say anything that would be hurtful or not helpful but being of the straight persuasion I had a lot to learn. I was lucky, I had kind teachers who appreciated my heart and corrected comments made from a privileged viewpoint. Even after almost 13 years with the organization and people I love and am comfortable with I still check myself. Privileged attitudes are hard not to just blurt out sometimes because to you they are normal. Check yourselves. We all need to learn to do that.

[janterry]

10. I agree she was wrong

It was a heated time, particularly for insiders in FL politics. Many gay people were calling Crist (it's Crist, btw - not Christ) out, too. Though certainly not in bigoted terms (as I recall).

I'm not a fan of forced outing, either, nor did it go anywhere (Crist has never said he is gay).

And Crist has changed over the years, in terms of his political beliefs, which is a good thing.

[rogue emissary]

11. As a straight male I agree with you.

Though we allow those on the left to say offensive racial stuff and don't always make them apologize.

[Caliman73]

12. That is reasonable.

It comes from checking our own privilege constantly. I belong to some marginalized groups and understand the effects of stereotypes, discrimination, and prejudice, but I am also privileged in many ways. I have to say that I was brought up in environments where stereotypes against other minorities, women, and LGBT people were rampant. My attitudes and thinking has changed a great deal as my experience has increased. I was especially fortunate that my behaviors were pointed out to me in ways that allowed me to grow and not in a way that negatively impacted my work, schooling, or other access to social institutions.

I think that it is a good thing that people have consequences now for behaviors that are destructive to our social fabric, and I think that using discriminatory and denigrating language falls under that situation. I do think that context is also important and that education and allowing people to understand and make amends is important.

[Maven]

13. I agree and I accept Joy's apology. And I also know that the people who dug up those blog posts

weren't doing so because they're champions of our rights. They were doing so to take down a black woman in the media whom they don't like because she has the temerity to criticize a certain white man they admire. So as far as I'm concerned, they can go pound sand.

[MikeydaDog]

15. I agree. I do think Reid was sincere and gets that. Nt

[demmiblue]

16. I agree.

DU has a long history of using/accepting these types of attacks aimed at republicans (don't get me started on the prison rape jokes).

I don't know what others have said on this issue because I have either trashed the thread(s) due to DU drama or have the worst offenders/hypocrites on ignore.

It is not ok. I am really glad that Joy has apologized, though. We all have moments in life when we fail and then rise up. All of us.

[Ms. Toad]

18. Or the Trump-Putin gay joke that I alerted on yesterday,

that was allowed to stand. At least I didn't lose my alert privileges for a day - which is (unfortunately) my current standard for a good a less homophobic day on DU.

[Blue_Tires]

20. True, but that misses the point

because this was *NEVER* about cultural sensitivity or the feelings of GLBTQ folks...

Certain people have an ongoing vendetta against Reid, so some no-lifers started digging into everything she'd ever written until they hit paydirt... And ten freaking years is a lot of digging. Who among us can say we've never written anything in that time that could be universally condemned today?

[leftstreet]

24. It's too bad she didn't apologize ten years ago, or five, or two

None of this would be an issue

[Alice11111]

28. Yeah.

[Blue_Tires]

35. And had she done that the Berners would have just found something else

to smear her with...

Like I said, don't fall into the trap of thinking this was *EVER* about GLBTQ people...

[melman]

29. Bullshit

I keep seeing this 'back in ye olden days of 2007 things were different' thing. It's the most laughable defense I've ever seen. Ten years is not ancient history.


Bottom line: If she didn't write the homophobic blogs they wouldn't be there to find. But she fucking did.

[irisblue]

30. Any at what point will you accept her apology and move on?

She wrote the blog posts, she has apologized, Crist accepted, she has made amends.

[MrsCoffee]

38. When she gives a full throated endorsement of Bernie.

Not a second sooner.

Pretty obvious at this point.

[kcr]

23. I wonder why it's ok to go back years for dirt on everyone except Bernie himself n/t

[JI7]

26. Presidential candidates should be held to higher standards

if he runs again we will see.

[kcr]

33. Then no one should have had a problem.

But anytime anyone so much as mentioned anything that could be remotely construed as negative about Bernie, watch out. That's why they're out full bore for Joy Reid.

[cwydro]

31. I agree completely.

I’m glad she apologized.

[malaise]

32. Great post

Joy is on our side

[MoonRiver]

34. It makes me sad to K&R, but this needed to be said.

Thank you dsc.

[tirebiter]

39. Rachel seems to see Joy as a good person

I'll leave it there and move on

[Tom Rinaldo]

40. She is a good person

Good people can do wrong things sometimes. They can also apologize, and if they indeed are good people, as is Joy, sincere apologies such as hers can be accepted and we can move on. I don't have to always agree with Joy to say that.

The point of the OP though is a little different. It's about ways we can slip into defending stuff that shouldn't be defended, and I agree with that point needing to be made.

[Behind the Aegis]

41. Well stated.

Some of the comments in other threads, defending this shit or "not seeing anything wrong", is par for the course though. Frankly, the responses in this thread are quite refreshing and give me a modicum of hope. I am surprised you haven't been accused of "straightsplainin" yet. The fact that some people can't wrap their heads around the concept of heterosexism and heterosexual privilege really pisses me off! Gay men are a minority and we are worthy of respect!

[dsc]

42. I am gay

[Behind the Aegis]

43. LOL!

I fucked up my comment. I know you are gay. What I meant to say was I am surprised you haven't been accused of "gaysplanin"! When I went head to head with a poster (over a very similar situation/comments from Reid), I was accused of "gaysplainin'", right here at DU. When certain minorities (gay men being one of them), stand up for themselves, the "aggrieved" majority complain they are being "splained" to, not understanding that isn't possible, but it is just their way of screeching a form of "reverse racism/sexism/homophobia/etc".

My apologies for the confusion!