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Well, Just Maybe Women Are Sick of This Shit From All Kinds of Men. (Original Post) VermontKevin Dec 2017 OP
Another thought. It's not all men. brush Dec 2017 #1
On the first post, even. VermontKevin Dec 2017 #5
Another hit and run OP from the usual suspects... Thor_MN Dec 2017 #13
Yup. Hortensis Dec 2017 #17
I suggest women be as militant as possible. Cary Dec 2017 #34
You don't really understand rhetoric and agency, do you? Cuthbert Allgood Dec 2017 #39
I understand abuse and condescension Cary Dec 2017 #56
So you don't think any marginalized group should fight for their agency? Cuthbert Allgood Dec 2017 #59
Notice what you just did... Cary Dec 2017 #62
It isn't abuse or slimy. Cuthbert Allgood Dec 2017 #68
Stop telling me what I hear or what I think Cary Dec 2017 #69
OK. I'll talk about me. Cuthbert Allgood Dec 2017 #73
Dude, it's an anonymous internet discussion board Cary Dec 2017 #75
Hmmmmm - you seem upset. nt el_bryanto Dec 2017 #40
Of course I am upset. Cary Dec 2017 #53
So we should stop doing what is right because others aren't? Cuthbert Allgood Dec 2017 #60
It's called a coalition Cary Dec 2017 #61
I suggest women be as principled as possible, and most ARE Hortensis Dec 2017 #47
I am just one person so I don't matter Cary Dec 2017 #55
We outnumber them many times. Don't be swayed by predatory noise. Hortensis Dec 2017 #57
exactly n/t flamingdem Dec 2017 #22
Given the OP replied to the same post you did, and 40 minutes before mythology Dec 2017 #23
Given that you have no idea what I mean, I'n not sure you know what I am talking about. Thor_MN Dec 2017 #29
Yes and we are rolling over on our best Senator. Alice11111 Dec 2017 #52
Right. But it's almost all women. And most men pnwmom Dec 2017 #20
Right. People have their own lives and concerns. They're not winking an nodding as sex predators... brush Dec 2017 #35
Yep! mreilly Dec 2017 #24
All men??? Cattledog Dec 2017 #2
Not all men, all "kinds" of men. pnwmom Dec 2017 #21
Wake me up when Republicans are affected. BannonsLiver Dec 2017 #3
what aboutism? Cuthbert Allgood Dec 2017 #41
Agree. Suicide mission initiated by the RW. Alice11111 Dec 2017 #54
Well, this woman thinks it's stupid to be led around the nose by the GOP kcr Dec 2017 #4
Certainly not all men, thank you very much. Glorfindel Dec 2017 #6
If they have not participated directly loyalsister Dec 2017 #7
Wrong. What a presumptous generalization. The vast majority of men have not protected sexual... brush Dec 2017 #9
Horseshit hueymahl Dec 2017 #58
ALL men? really? NRaleighLiberal Dec 2017 #8
You are exactly right Kevin. Thanks for the post. nt Irish_Dem Dec 2017 #10
I guess handmade34 Dec 2017 #11
24 senate dems. Jesus Christ I fear what they know. VermontKevin Dec 2017 #12
IMO they don't know any more than you, that another anonymous person made allegations... brush Dec 2017 #15
It's a Dem staffer. VermontKevin Dec 2017 #16
Who then? Why the anonymity? Jesus! brush Dec 2017 #18
I'm betting the 24 Senate Dems know. VermontKevin Dec 2017 #19
It never occured to you that this just maybe part of a repug hit job? brush Dec 2017 #25
So Bernie Sanders got taken in? Warren, Gillenbrand, Harris? VermontKevin Dec 2017 #30
That's your wording, but they are getting on the bus that Franken is now under. brush Dec 2017 #37
Or I could apply Occam's Razor. VermontKevin Dec 2017 #38
Apply it to the Tweeden case and the photo of her goosing the guitarist's ass. brush Dec 2017 #42
I'm going to apply it to the Dem staffer and 24 Dems. VermontKevin Dec 2017 #44
Figures. You don't want to touch the shakiness of the Tweeden case that started it all. brush Dec 2017 #46
Credibility? Buh Bye ProfessorGAC Dec 2017 #64
If you dig deep enough and far enough back Bettie Dec 2017 #14
What nonsense mythology Dec 2017 #26
He's been trying to walk that line Bettie Dec 2017 #32
You're exactly right. No wonder they laugh and call us snowflakes. Vinca Dec 2017 #27
Russian trolls are data mining as we speak. BannonsLiver Dec 2017 #28
Exactly GaryCnf Dec 2017 #48
We have a very good friend who used the "c" word to describe a woman who was CTyankee Dec 2017 #33
Well, let's compare your list to the allegations against Franken: Cuthbert Allgood Dec 2017 #43
Very true treestar Dec 2017 #72
...and we can say goodbye Madam Mossfern Dec 2017 #31
!!! Alice11111 Dec 2017 #51
Maybe CountAllVotes Dec 2017 #36
Are you F'ing kidding GaryCnf Dec 2017 #45
Oh I have a whole essay written out on THAT ismnotwasm Dec 2017 #49
K & R Wwcd Dec 2017 #50
Fail. Iggo Dec 2017 #63
I'm sick of women and men pretending like #metoo has anything to do with touching someone's waist. OhioBlue Dec 2017 #65
i agree with you. waist touching is not groping in my opinion. trueblue2007 Dec 2017 #66
You okay with trump? StarryNite Dec 2017 #67
D'oh. L. Coyote Dec 2017 #70
If enough of them were, why is Donald in office? treestar Dec 2017 #71
They should be. Willie Pep Dec 2017 #74

Cary

(11,746 posts)
34. I suggest women be as militant as possible.
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 04:15 PM
Dec 2017

Alienate all who are sympathetic, because, well, just because you can. Be as obnoxious as possible. Do not tolerate even the slightest deviation from your point of view. Jump on and smother anyone who even dares to ask a question. Attack them personally and suggest that the don't toe your line because they have "issues." Ignore them when they dare to ask you to identify those "issues."

Yes, that makes for a successful revolution.

Cuthbert Allgood

(4,896 posts)
59. So you don't think any marginalized group should fight for their agency?
Thu Dec 7, 2017, 11:15 AM
Dec 2017

Because it makes you feel the sad? How privileged of you.

Cary

(11,746 posts)
62. Notice what you just did...
Thu Dec 7, 2017, 12:57 PM
Dec 2017

"So you don't think any marginalized group should fight for their agency?

View profile
Because it makes you feel the sad? How privileged of you."

You just changed the subject from what it was to me, personally. That is text book abuse. It's also slimy. It's also an ad hominem.

Like I said, I'm too old to not recognize this bullshit when some idiot tries to fling it at me. If you have an argument, make it. If you're going to attack me personally then you only discredit yourself.

You know who does this kind of thing all the time? "Conservatives."

Cuthbert Allgood

(4,896 posts)
68. It isn't abuse or slimy.
Thu Dec 7, 2017, 02:01 PM
Dec 2017

I am trying to point out that your personal view of the world is causing you to not understand or appreciate the need for agency of this minority. You apparently don't want to hear their voice. They don't want to listen to what, to them, are legitimate concerns that they feel have been overlooked for decades and more. To you, it's just them being mean and being that way isn't going to get things to change. Perhaps from their standpoint, NOT being mean has gotten them jack shit.

Perhaps rather than saying that it's just bullshit, you just sit down and actually listen to them. You actually try to understand why their life situation is such that they feel the only way they can be heard is to do what they are doing. And after you get done listening to them, just learn.

Or, you can just go around and shout "Conservatives" at them and see how that works for you.

Cary

(11,746 posts)
69. Stop telling me what I hear or what I think
Thu Dec 7, 2017, 04:23 PM
Dec 2017

That is abuse. That is slimy. Discuss the issue. My person is not up for discussion.

And don't try to tell me you don't know what you're doing. Whether you don't know or not is irrelevant. You have no excuse for changing the subject to my person and I am not going to discuss my person with someone who engages in this abuse.

You have discredited yourself.

Cuthbert Allgood

(4,896 posts)
73. OK. I'll talk about me.
Thu Dec 7, 2017, 04:35 PM
Dec 2017

I'm a 50-year-old white guy. When I see Black Lives Matter protesting, it is not my place to say "that's not the way I'd do it." My place is to listen to them and try to understand their point and the things that happened that caused them to need to protest in that fashion. I need to not react as me, but listen as another human being to the pain of a fellow human being. Only by doing that can I possibly hope to understand a reality that I have no ability to understand otherwise. My daily life looks nothing like theirs. The things I live through are nothing like what they live through.

As a 50-year-old white guy, I can either look at what you reacted to use the filter of my male life or I can try to understand what they have been through. I can give them the agency and voice they need.

Our "person" HAS to be up for discussion because it is our person that creates the filter through which we understand EVERYTHING.

And, for the record, I think I have been nothing but patient in trying to help you understand the last sentence I just typed. I am fully aware that coming face-to-face with your privilege is a hard thing. Gone through it a lot in my life.

Cary

(11,746 posts)
75. Dude, it's an anonymous internet discussion board
Thu Dec 7, 2017, 05:15 PM
Dec 2017

My person is not up for discussion because I'm not interested in your thoughts about my person. Your thoughts about my person are irrelevant and your statements, including the one I am replying to, are complete and utter nonsense. What makes you think I'd be any more interested in your thoughts about your own person than I am in your thoughts about me? Do I know you? I don't think so.

This is the last place I would go to for such a discussion.

What was the original subject? I forgot but don't bother refreshing my memory. You're just not that interesting.

Cary

(11,746 posts)
53. Of course I am upset.
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 05:12 PM
Dec 2017

Republicans hold all of the power and they're destroying our democracy.

So hey, let's turn on each other! Let's wedge ourselves. That's going to work out so well in our war against fascists.

Cary

(11,746 posts)
61. It's called a coalition
Thu Dec 7, 2017, 12:53 PM
Dec 2017

I'm sorry if that offends you but to have a coalition you do have to compromise, and you do have to even sometimes ally yourself with people you don't like.

I can make a clear distinction between all of those whom I would have in my coalition and the evil rightwing assholes. You can tell me that you can't do that, but you can't convince me. You can do it.

If you don't do what you need to do, then you're helping evil rightwing assholes and you're hurting those of us who oppose them with every fiber of our body. You are, of course, free to make the wrong choice. That's all on you, but you don't have my respect if you do.

That ought to be clear enough.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
47. I suggest women be as principled as possible, and most ARE
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 04:36 PM
Dec 2017

far less unprincipled than some.

I'm a lifelong feminist and I'm also a lifelong despiser of extremists and the extreme, unprincipled, even indecent behaviors extreme passions make them prone to.

Let's not forget that, not at all long ago, many were eager to have the votes of 17 million Democrats set aside to effectively appoint someone else our nominee. Zealots are dangerous and not because of their commitment to democracy and to liberty and justice for all.

And there's certainly nothing new about the dangers from those. Thomas Jefferson and John Adams had plenty to say about the zealots attacking in both new states as they tried to establish our democracy.

“It is the certainty that they possess the truth that makes men cruel.”
― Anatole France


“Every reform movement has a lunatic fringe.”
― Theodore Roosevelt


“The trouble with all these far-right and far-left mentalities is that they can encompass only one side of an argument and are congenitally incapable of holding two opinions in their heads at the same time.”
― Truman Capote



“What does it matter to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?”
― Mahatma Gandhi

Cary

(11,746 posts)
55. I am just one person so I don't matter
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 05:23 PM
Dec 2017

And I can only tell you that "the extremists" on this issue whom you may be referring to were people whom Inregarded as allies and friends. Yet they have decided that it's a good idea to attack me personally.

I don't understand why. All they have accomplished, as far as I can tell, is the loss of my respect.

I cannot abandon a cause because some advocates are irrational and obnoxious but I must tell you that I am extremely disillusioned, disappointed, and demoralized. I am raising two daughters and I still advocate for them, but it has crossed my mind here to join Alfalfa's He-Man No Women Allowed Club.

If I can't join them then avoid them.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
57. We outnumber them many times. Don't be swayed by predatory noise.
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 05:33 PM
Dec 2017

And, of course, differentiate between those merely swept up from the genuinely hostile ones. Not too difficult.

Some are really idealistically happy and just don't realize that most of their rights will be legislated away if we don't get the right-wing extremists out of office. It's the noisy minority who've found their way here who don't care, for whom their own winning over mainstream liberals and Democrats is everything because they're ruled by ruthless aggressive extremism, who are the problem.

My hope is that 10 months from now everyone here at least will recognize the huge difference from behavior.

I am an example of a mainstream, progressive, liberal, egalitarian, justice-seeking, all-gender-respecting feminist Democrat who is committed to inclusive, tolerant, cooperative but above all principled democratic government.



There are two classes of disputants most frequently to be met with among us. The first is of young students, just entered the threshold of science, with a first view of its outlines, not yet filled up with the details & modifications which a further progress would bring to their knoledge.

The other consists of the ill-tempered & rude men in society, who have taken up a passion for politics. ... Consider yourself, when with them, as among the patients of Bedlam, needing medical more than moral counsel. Be a listener only, keep within yourself, and endeavor to establish with yourself the habit of silence, especially on politics. In the fevered state of our country, no good can ever result from any attempt to set one of these fiery zealots to rights, either in fact or principle. They are determined as to the facts they will believe, and the opinions on which they will act. Get by them, therefore, as you would by an angry bull; it is not for a man of sense to dispute the road with such an animal.” Thomas Jefferson.


(Anyone who reads this will never believe the zealots who try to claim Thomas Jefferson was one of them. )
 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
23. Given the OP replied to the same post you did, and 40 minutes before
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 04:06 PM
Dec 2017

I'm not sure if you know what a hit and run post is.

pnwmom

(108,950 posts)
20. Right. But it's almost all women. And most men
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 04:04 PM
Dec 2017

have been pretty oblivious, even if they haven't been among the harassers.

brush

(53,719 posts)
35. Right. People have their own lives and concerns. They're not winking an nodding as sex predators...
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 04:16 PM
Dec 2017

assault victims.

The vast majority of people know nothing about it if it's going on.

They are the lucky ones, which we can't say of the victims unfortunately, but they are not involved in any knowingly turning a blind eye to sexual harassment.

 

mreilly

(2,120 posts)
24. Yep!
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 04:07 PM
Dec 2017

46 year old straight male here. I've never done a damned inappropriate thing with women - ever. I've had sex with girlfriends and my wife, all consensual and mutually agreed upon. No harassment. No groping. No forcing. No innuendo. No lewd comments. None of it.

I've never even used a fucking PICKUP LINE for Christ's sake!

So it's getting a little tiresome seeing this shit from people that "ALL MEN ARE PREDATORS" or "MEN ARE THE PROBLEM."

PREDATORS ARE THE FUCKING PROBLEM.

BannonsLiver

(16,275 posts)
3. Wake me up when Republicans are affected.
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 03:10 PM
Dec 2017

But hey, I'm sure the GOP super majority in the senate and house post 2020 will work real hard on women's issues. The storyline next year will be "Dems resigning in disgrace" it won't be "Hey, look at the strong moral stance Dems took, that is admirable."





Cuthbert Allgood

(4,896 posts)
41. what aboutism?
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 04:21 PM
Dec 2017

I find that repugnant in this instance. We need to stand for what is right. Period. It's an easy position to defend.

Alice11111

(5,730 posts)
54. Agree. Suicide mission initiated by the RW.
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 05:15 PM
Dec 2017
We keep doing ourselves in, by lettng the RW
take down our best.

kcr

(15,313 posts)
4. Well, this woman thinks it's stupid to be led around the nose by the GOP
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 03:10 PM
Dec 2017

This woman knows that letting them run the show is a really bad idea. We're not a hive mind.

Glorfindel

(9,714 posts)
6. Certainly not all men, thank you very much.
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 03:13 PM
Dec 2017

Probably not even all straight men, but certainly not all gay men.

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
7. If they have not participated directly
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 03:19 PM
Dec 2017

Pretty much all men and some women have at minimum protected sexual predators. We rejected the "locker room talk" defense, but we knew what they were talking about when they used the term.

brush

(53,719 posts)
9. Wrong. What a presumptous generalization. The vast majority of men have not protected sexual...
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 03:30 PM
Dec 2017

predators.

I resent such an irresponsible statement. I'm a man and have never done that.

Most of us just want to do our job and get home.

You think sexual predators are doing stuff in the open and expect other men to look the other way?

No. That is not so.

hueymahl

(2,447 posts)
58. Horseshit
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 05:40 PM
Dec 2017

Inflammatory rhetoric, no basis in reality. I might as well say, based on your post, all women support other women who make shit up about harassment. But that would be equally ridiculous.

handmade34

(22,756 posts)
11. I guess
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 03:51 PM
Dec 2017

people reading this don't understand your gist... "all KINDS of men" not "all men"

I get it... women that are sexually assaulted are pretty fed up and don't care if the man is old, young, white, black, republican, democrat, short, tall, handsome, balding, etc.... they just want it to END!!!!!!

I do not want Al Franken to resign, I would like to think he is not a sexual predator and I hope the calls for him to resign are not without warrant

brush

(53,719 posts)
15. IMO they don't know any more than you, that another anonymous person made allegations...
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 03:59 PM
Dec 2017

but refuses to come forward.

Drip, drip, drip until Franken is forced to resign, but not a peep from those "brave" Dems for trump to resign.

brush

(53,719 posts)
25. It never occured to you that this just maybe part of a repug hit job?
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 04:09 PM
Dec 2017

We know by now the original accuser, Tweeden, worked with Roger Stone and Hannity to concoct her story with a gag photo that was not actual groping, and photos of her actually groping a guitarist on stage on the same USO tour surfaced but she was not pilloried as Franken was and is.

Has none of that occured to you?

All male Democratic politicians and candidates are now vulnerable to this new repug tactic because they now know other Dems will called for resignations instead of waiting on an investigation.

brush

(53,719 posts)
37. That's your wording, but they are getting on the bus that Franken is now under.
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 04:19 PM
Dec 2017

Again, has it occured to you that this could well be a repug hit job that Dems have now helped carry out instead of waiting for an investigation?

brush

(53,719 posts)
42. Apply it to the Tweeden case and the photo of her goosing the guitarist's ass.
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 04:23 PM
Dec 2017

You don't seem to want to address the shakiness of her allegations at all — the one that started all this.

Bettie

(16,049 posts)
14. If you dig deep enough and far enough back
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 03:57 PM
Dec 2017

I'm betting every single person alive has said or done something that can be interpreted as guilt in the current climate.*

Ever made a pass at another person and got shot down? You are guilty.

Ever looked at a person you thought was attractive? You are guilty

Ever accidentally touched someone while having a photo taken? You are guilty.

Ever made an off color joke? Guilty

Ever laughed at an off color joke? Guilty

There are so many more because all we really need are anonymous accusations of things you never did and you know what? If you don't have an "R" after your name, you are guilty, automatically.

*This only applies to Democrats. Republicans can do whatever they want to.

 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
26. What nonsense
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 04:11 PM
Dec 2017

Nobody has been accused and resigned for looking at somebody else. Franken has been accused by multiple women of grabbing them without consent. He can't even bring himself to deny it.

Bettie

(16,049 posts)
32. He's been trying to walk that line
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 04:13 PM
Dec 2017

and not outright call these women liars.

At this point, however, he should have, seems the result would have been the same, he gets the pillory no matter what he says.

And no one has been accused and resigned for looking YET.

But, when we lose all the elections in 2018, I'm sure you'll feel good about your high ground.

CTyankee

(63,880 posts)
33. We have a very good friend who used the "c" word to describe a woman who was
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 04:13 PM
Dec 2017

admittedly acting very badly. I was shocked and right then and there I lectured him on using such a vile word. He apologized and excused it as being something working class men, such as himself, used. That made me even madder. He's never used it around me again.

My husband would never use that word, nor would my son and sons in law.

Cuthbert Allgood

(4,896 posts)
43. Well, let's compare your list to the allegations against Franken:
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 04:23 PM
Dec 2017

Made a pass--nope
Looked at a person--nope
Accidentally touched someone--nope (come on, one is accidental--this many is not)
Off color joke--nope

So your hypothetical list isn't in play. Thanks, though.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
72. Very true
Thu Dec 7, 2017, 04:29 PM
Dec 2017

I wonder who the Republicans will go after next.

It would be irony if one of those who suggested resignation.

Madam Mossfern

(2,340 posts)
31. ...and we can say goodbye
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 04:13 PM
Dec 2017

to women's healthcare and other women's issues by letting the Republicans have even more power.
Like my mother would say, "You're cutting off your nose to spite your face."

CountAllVotes

(20,863 posts)
36. Maybe
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 04:18 PM
Dec 2017

I was told to deal with it, it is part of my life.

I accepted this TO A POINT after creep boss man tried to rape me on my 1st job ever at 17.

They damn near killed me in the end as the worst of them all was indeed the last. He is dead now. Too late, otherwise ... !!!!!!! .

MAYBE is right! I understand the rage!!!!!



 

GaryCnf

(1,399 posts)
45. Are you F'ing kidding
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 04:26 PM
Dec 2017

In a world where cops murder young black men in cold blood and get away with it

In a world where a 14 year-old child is made to strip down to her underwear for a 30 year-old pervert and he can get away with it

In a world were some rich asshole can grab a woman's genitals and get away with it

In a world where men in power from Hollywood to Washington D.C. can collect sexual gratification like salt and pepper shakers and even commit rape and get away with it

In THAT world we are supposed to care so much about a man putting his hand on someone's butt that we would end their career?

Some people have no idea what REAL oppression is.

ismnotwasm

(41,952 posts)
49. Oh I have a whole essay written out on THAT
Wed Dec 6, 2017, 04:45 PM
Dec 2017

I don’t post it anywhere because it makes no difference. I’m just gonna repost, yet again, Andrea Dworkin (and wasn’t the mere mention of her name hated at DU not so many years ago)

I Want a Twenty-Four-Hour Truce
During Which There Is No Rape
1983

I have thought a great deal about how a feminist, like myself, addresses an audience primarily of political men who say that they are antisexist. And I thought a lot about whether there should be a qualitative difference in the kind of speech I address to you. And then I found myself incapable of pretending that I really believe that that qualitative difference exists. I have watched the men's movement for many years. I am close with some of the people who participate in it. I can't come here as a friend even though I might very much want to. What I would like to do is to scream: and in that scream I would have the screams of the raped, and the sobs of the battered; and even worse, in the center of that scream I would have the deafening sound of women's silence, that silence into which we are born because we are women and in which most of us die.

And if there would be a plea or a question or a human address in that scream, it would be this: why are you so slow? Why are you so slow to understand the simplest things; not the complicated ideological things. You understand those. The simple things. The cliches. Simply that women are human to precisely the degree and quality that you are.

And also: that we do not have time. We women. We don't have forever. Some of us don't have another week or another day to take time for you to discuss whatever it is that will enable you to go out into those streets and do something. We are very close to death. All women are. And we are very close to rape and we are very close to beating. And we are inside a system of humiliation from which there is no escape for us. We use statistics not to try to quantify the injuries, but to convince the world that those injuries even exist. Those statistics are not abstractions. It is easy to say, "Ah, the statistics, somebody writes them up one way and somebody writes them up another way." That's true. But I hear about the rapes one by one by one by one by one, which is also how they happen. Those statistics are not abstract to me. Every three minutes a woman is being raped. Every eighteen seconds a woman is being beaten. There is nothing abstract about it. It is happening right now as I am speaking.

And it is happening for a simple reason. There is nothing complex and difficult about the reason. Men are doing it, because of the kind of power that men have over women. That power is real, concrete, exercised from one body to another body, exercised by someone who feels he has a right to exercise it, exercised in public and exercised in private. It is the sum and substance of women's oppression.

It is not done 5000 miles away or 3000 miles away. It is done here and it is done now and it is done by the people in this room as well as by other contemporaries: our friends, our neighbors, people that we know. Women don't have to go to school to learn about power. We just have to be women, walking down the street or trying to get the housework done after having given one's body in marriage and then having no rights over it.

The power exercised by men day to day in life is power that is institutionalized. It is protected by law. It is protected by religion and religious practice. It is protected by universities, which are strongholds of male supremacy. It is protected by a police force. It is protected by those whom Shelley called "the unacknowledged legislators of the world": the poets, the artists. Against that power, we have silence.

It is an extraordinary thing to try to understand and confront why it is that men believe--and men do believe--that they have the right to rape. Men may not believe it when asked. Everybody raise your hand who believes you have the right to rape. Not too many hands will go up. It's in life that men believe they have the right to force sex, which they don't call rape. And it is an extraordinary thing to try to understand that men really believe that they have the right to hit and to hurt. And it is an equally extraordinary thing to try to understand that men really believe that they have the right to buy a woman's body for the purpose of having sex: that that is a right. And it is very amazing to try to understand that men believe that the seven-billion-dollar-a-year industry that provides men with cunts is something that men have a right to.

That is the way the power of men is manifest in real life. That is what theory about male supremacy means. It means you can rape. It means you can hit. It means you can hurt. It means you can buy and sell women. It means that there is a class of people there to provide you with what you need. You stay richer than they are, so that they have to sell you sex. Not just on street corners, but in the workplace. That's another right that you can presume to have: sexual access to any woman in your environment, when you want.

Now, the men's movement suggests that men don't want the kind of power I have just described. I've actually heard explicit whole sentences to that effect. And yet, everything is a reason not to do something about changing the fact that you do have that power.

Hiding behind guilt, that's my favorite. I love that one. Oh, it's horrible, yes, and I'm so sorry. You have the time to feel guilty. We don't have the time for you to feel guilty. Your guilt is a form of acquiescence in what continues to occur. Your guilt helps keep things the way they are.

I have heard in the last several years a great deal about the suffering of men over sexism. Of course, I have heard a great deal about the suffering of men all my life. Needless to say, I have read Hamlet. I have read King Lear. I am an educated woman. I know that men suffer. This is a new wrinkle. Implicit in the idea that this is a different kind of suffering is the claim, I think, that in part you are actually suffering because of something that you know happens to someone else. That would indeed be new.

But mostly your guilt, your suffering, reduces to: gee, we really feel so bad. Everything makes men feel so bad: what you do, what you don't do, what you want to do, what you don't want to want to do but are going to do anyway. I think most of your distress is: gee, we really feel so bad. And I'm sorry that you feel so bad--so uselessly and stupidly bad--because there is a way in which this really is your tragedy. And I don't mean because you can't cry. And I don't mean because there is no real intimacy in your lives. And I don't mean because the armor that you have to live with as men is stultifying: and I don't doubt that it is. But I don't mean any of that.

http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/WarZoneChaptIIIE.htmlI

OhioBlue

(5,126 posts)
65. I'm sick of women and men pretending like #metoo has anything to do with touching someone's waist.
Thu Dec 7, 2017, 01:31 PM
Dec 2017

F*ck this - the GOP has weaponized #Metoo against us and Dem leadership was too stupid to see it. They also trivialize actual harassment, assault and molestation with this.

StarryNite

(9,423 posts)
67. You okay with trump?
Thu Dec 7, 2017, 01:36 PM
Dec 2017

He admitted to grabbing women...you okay with that Kevin??? Why do high standards only apply to the Democrats?

Willie Pep

(841 posts)
74. They should be.
Thu Dec 7, 2017, 04:59 PM
Dec 2017

But at the same time there has to be mechanisms for dealing with sexual harassment other than trial by media. This can be hard in cases where the accused are powerful and hold power over their accusers but I do believe that we can do a better job of dealing with harassment besides taking to Twitter.

Eventually there will be a backlash against using media platforms to deal with this issue and it will be bad for women because the issue will be turned into a tabloid fiasco instead of being treated seriously.

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