General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAl Frankens Resignation and the Selective Force of #MeToo
There was one notable absence in his speech: Franken did not apologize. In fact, he made it clear that he disagreed with his accusers. Some of the allegations against me are simply not true, he said. Others I remember very differently. Earlier, Franken had in fact apologized to his accusers, and he didnt take his apologies back now, but he made it plain that they had been issued in the hopes of facilitating a conversation and an investigation that would clear him. He had, it seems, been attempting to buy calm time to work while a Senate ethics committee looked into the accusations. But, by Thursday morning, thirty-two Democratic senators had called on Franken to resign. The force of the #MeToo moment leaves no room for due process, or, indeed, for Frankens own constituents to consider their choice.
Still, the force works selectively. I, of all people, am aware that there is some irony in the fact that I am leaving while a man who has bragged on tape about his history of sexual assault sits in the Oval Office and a man who has repeatedly preyed on young girls campaigns for the Senate with the full support of his party, said Franken, referring to Donald Trump and the Alabama Senate candidate Roy Moore. Trump and Moore are immune because the blunt irresistible force works only on the other half of the country.
That half is cleaning its ranks in the face ofand in clear reaction togenuine moral depravity on the other side. The Trump era is one of deep and open immorality in politics. Moore is merely one example. Consider Greg Gianforte, the Montana Republican who won his congressional race earlier this year after not only being captured on tape shoving a newspaper reporter but then also lying to police about it. Consider the tax bill, which is stitched together from shameless greed and boldface lies. Consider the series of racist travel bans. Consider the withdrawal from a series of international agreements aimed at bettering the future of humanity, from migration to climate change to cultural preservation. These are men who proclaim their allegiance to the Christian faith while acting in openly hateful, duplicitous, and plainly murderous ways. In response to this unbearable spectacle, the roughly half of Americans who are actually deeply invested in thinking of themselves as good people are trying to claim a moral high ground. The urge to do so by policing sex is not surprising. As Susan Sontag pointed out more than half a century ago, Christianity has concentrated on sexual behavior as the root of virtue and, consequently, everything pertaining to sex has been a special case in our culture.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/al-franken-resignation-and-the-selective-force-of-metoo/amp?__twitter_impression=true
JHan
(10,173 posts)still_one
(92,116 posts)accusers, which the senate Democrats refused to let him do, and if he makes a compelling case those Senate Democrats are going to look like fools, and I would venture that those in that group who had presidential ambitions in 2020, will not see those ambitions realized, and the Democrats will select someone else as their nominee
tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)Look and act like fools. With this mess, they have become fools.
calimary
(81,194 posts)Last edited Fri Dec 8, 2017, 10:34 PM - Edit history (1)
representative for Dianne Feinstein. I stated as pointedly as possible that I expected Feinstein to show the SAME zero-tolerance toward a Senator (I hope not!) Roy Moore. I wanted that on the record, and in front of witnesses. Most of our little group members were women. They agreed with me.
And I will not support any Kirsten Gillibrand campaign for president. Unless theres no choice and she winds up the next (I hope not!) Democratic nominee. I cant believe Im actually agreeing with Newt Gingrich. He called it a lynch mob. And with no hearings or due process offered to Al Franken, thats certainly how it looks.
still_one
(92,116 posts)expressing disappointment that Franken wasn't given a chance to defend himself.
The way this was handled, and the way Franken resigned, I doubt the Gellibrand, or the others even spoke with him personally before signing the petition asking for his resignation. I could be wrong of course, but it is so much easier to ask for someone's resignation with the mask of the crowd, then having to face them personally, and telling them of your intention.
Not something which represents profiles in courage in my opinion
AntiFascist
(12,792 posts)and Feinstein has always been suspect.
ananda
(28,856 posts)who turned against the good Al Franken!
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)PatrickforO
(14,570 posts)lots of our bench.
And those motherfuckers cast an innocent man from their midst BEFORE he had due process.
There's nothing, NOTHING, that pushes my buttons more than seeing someone accused of something they didn't do, and this is why. These thoughtless and gutless people sold Franken out for what?
Me too.
Fuck that.
Let's WIN some elections and not do this kind of bullshit.
still_one
(92,116 posts)Last edited Fri Dec 8, 2017, 11:54 AM - Edit history (1)
PatrickforO
(14,570 posts)For me, that's the issue. If he actually did something egregious in terms of harassing someone, then sure, ask for his resignation. But based on two allegations that have been shown not to hold water, and five anonymous ones? Not so much.
I mean, let's say you get arrested for something that someone accuses you of. OK, so you're out now on bail waiting for trial. The day you show up at court for your arraignment, and you find instead it's a sentencing hearing. That's what basically has happened to Franken.
In the vernacular, this is called 'railroading.' And Al Franken has very much been railroaded. I don't like it and have called many of these 'courageous' senators to express my concern.
It isn't just women who have been violated, you know. Sometimes men are, too, or have been. And yes, I know how it feels. But to ride someone out of the Senate on a rail before he's had due process is unconscionable, because it shows a COMPLETE lack of moral fortitude. Sigh...yes, I do know that the nature of politics calls for us to have a lower bar in terms of moral fortitude, but not that low. Not witch hunt low. Not lynch mob low. That's unacceptable.
still_one
(92,116 posts)still_one
(92,116 posts)nominate
Horse with no Name
(33,956 posts)Thank you.
still_one
(92,116 posts)bdamomma
(63,836 posts)so we continue to have this POS as president, that is exactly what people like bannon and roger stone want Democrats to go after Dems and not to vote for democrats at all or not vote at all isn't this how we got here in the first place?
Just my opinion.
rainy
(6,089 posts)Lonestarblue
(9,963 posts)Ive already sent an email to Kirsten Gillibrand telling her how angry I am over her zero tolerance stance and her equating the smallest touch with the vilest sexual molestation. I told ger that when she runs for president, she will have neither my vote nor my financial support and that I would work against her nomination every hour od the day. Gillibrand could have taken a stance supporting the MeToo movement but also supporting fairness in allowing a man to defend himself against his accusers. She essentially said that we must believe every woman no matter how specious or unproven her allegations. We now have open hunting on any male Democrat whose every action Republicans will turn into sexual harassment because it will work for them to defeat Democrats.
Rene
(1,183 posts)JimBeard
(293 posts)will continue to vote republican. I have two sisters who are proof of that.
Pacifist Patriot
(24,653 posts)octoberlib
(14,971 posts)FarPoint
(12,316 posts)Not a movement with any strong credibility....The need for due process is not an option for this movement...Makes it hollow.
Me too has credibility and this action against Franken by Party leaders is not something we have any control over.
It hurts the movement, in fact.
Mad as hell at them.
Just wrote Schumer. And called Gillibrand again.
KPN
(15,642 posts)It's about unmasking and condemning sexual harassment society-wide, not politics. Which is exactly what this was all about -- especially on Gillibrand's part in throwing the initial grenade.
MrsCoffee
(5,801 posts)For many women coming forward now, there may be a statute of limitations that prevents due process. Many women, like me, were very young when they were abused and they were simply too terrified to say anything. And some were not so young and simply terrified to say anything. The victim can have feelings of shame and guilt that prevent them from coming forward. So many reasons that little girls and women don't tell authorities. Sometimes they do and a parent or relative or family friend will be protected instead of the victim being believed.
But there is no due process for the victims either in those cases. It's time to break this cycle. You don't break the cycle by trying to discredit the movement and women's voices. You encourage them to come forward and guarantee that their claims will be investigated. And I expect my party to stick up for those women.
I am appalled that Franken was asked to resign before an investigation. But I am not appalled that action is being taken around the country and women's voices are being heard.
JHan
(10,173 posts)when norms are being newly redefined, there's a lot of upheaval and uncertainty and lack of direction. But these are important conversations to have, the #meToo movement is about women's experiences being taken seriously.
I would not have thrown Franken under the bus, but the actions of Democratic Leadership don't mean there isn't value to the MeToo movement, come on now.
For so long claims of abuse towards women were dismissed, outright disbelieved because sexual assault was rationalized. Now there's a deluge of women feeling confident to tell their stories: would you say that the allegations of Weinstein's accusers etc, should not have been treated seriously? Since these claims were not litigated in a formal court?
Also there's a difference, what is happening now is a change of norms and if there's a preponderance of evidence that someone has violated norms, they are held to account for that behavior - either asked to resign or step down from their position of power and authority.
mn9driver
(4,423 posts)Any movement that delegitimizes someone who believes they are innocent of the charges against them simply because they refuse to make what is, to them, a false confession, is dangerous.
To be clear, women have an absolute right not to be assaulted or harassed, and those who dont respect that right need to be hit with consequences. To the extent that the #metoo movement accomplishes this, it is a positive force for change in our society.
The danger is that like some previous mass movements, this one is showing troubling signs of self reinforcing absolutism. In other words, there is a growing tendency to pronounce anyone who disputes the charges against themselves as being proven guilty simply by their denial.
world wide wally
(21,740 posts)Apparently they are one in the same now.
JimBeard
(293 posts)Sorry but that is the way it is.
KPN
(15,642 posts)mn9driver
(4,423 posts)Because there are others, some of whom comment prolifically here, who believe that denial, or even insufficiently complete and abject confession, constitutes proof of guilt. They are not the ones expressing concern about the Franken evisceration to the DNC.
Im sure that they are in the minority. But they are there, and they are vocal, and they had an influence on the outcome of the Franken affair and they are still criticizing him even after he resigned, because he didnt use their approved words and form.
dalton99a
(81,432 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)I don't care if he would've been a distraction, or any alternate reasons that the Dems with the forks give now for insisting that an innocent man give up his career and successfully working toward helping his party and the country (and women).
What happened was a shark feeding frenzy...where the sharks eat anything and everything Democratic in the water. They do not eat Republicans. Has Schumer demanded that Trump resign? Have any of the 30 Dems demanded that Trump resign? Ironic that most of hte ones who have demanded Trump be impeached did NOT insist that Franken is guilty or that he give up his career.
So who are the real leaders in the party? Who are the ones who make determinations on the basis of the facts, disregarding anonymous allegations, equating trying to kiss with molesting minors.
I'm pissed about this. It's WRONG to railroad a person like this. Any person.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)I also will not forget the Dems who threw him under the bus, nor those who cheered them on.
More than that, I dare not write...
JimBeard
(293 posts)This is not going well for them. HUGE mistake!
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)INdemo
(6,994 posts)the Corporate Republic rats throw Franken to the wild dogs.
To Franken I say: Withdraw your resigination
ananda
(28,856 posts)I did.
Maybe enough would make a difference.
Paladin
(28,246 posts)mountain grammy
(26,614 posts)Recommended!
SCVDem
(5,103 posts)We know from Randi Rhodes who worked with Al that he is a kisser. Strange but NO INTENT!
Regarding the waist squeeze, note that it was two squeezes. Perhaps a Thank You or a Good Bye? Each has TWO beats!
Absent any intent, Al is guilty of being overly Minnesota friendly.
Groping is a subjective term, so Al apologized for any misread actions. Don't make a high crime when it doesn't exist!
Between overreaction and flat out lies and a bad imagination, I see nothing which even rises to a crime. Maybe a chat with Miss Manners, but that's it!
JimBeard
(293 posts)world wide wally
(21,740 posts)And, right on camera in front of the world.
How much different could Franken's be?
KPN
(15,642 posts)going to lob that bomb out there en masse, loudly and repeatedly? Never! This was all about politics and, for Gillibrand especially, personal gain.
HeartLikeAWheel
(19 posts)I've posted my own experience in General Discussion: The Paradox of #metoo.
Thank you, Arkansas Granny, for this valuable, essential post!
Cattledog
(5,914 posts)Response to Arkansas Granny (Original post)
Cattledog This message was self-deleted by its author.
rainlillie
(1,095 posts)I had to reread the claim made by the woman who said Al squeezed her waist. Are you f%cking kidding me. This woman just wanted her 15 minutes. I've stood next to male co-workers while getting a picture and they put their hands on my waist, not in a sexual way, but in a friendly way. Innocent men and women are going to get caught up in this frenzy. How about investigating before tossing someone who NEVER had a history with this type of behavior.
KPN
(15,642 posts)bdamomma
(63,836 posts)good post
JimBeard
(293 posts)I just don't care about that. Hollow victory.