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Mon Dec 11, 2017, 06:58 PM

Supporting Gillibrand, Harris, etc., while opposing Franken's resignation

Life is complicated. I've been very conflicted about this issue since well before Franken was accused.

Year after year in our history we've seen women being put on trial for the crime of daring to tell the truth about what happened to them, and countless women who didn't dare speak out because of that sort of unjust treatment. It is infuriating & heartbreaking.

Judging by the experiences of my female friends & family members, any statistic claiming much less than less than 100% of women having dealt with some sort of uninvited, unwelcome, or inappropriate sexual advance is understating the facts.

On the other hand, how can justice be served if an accusation, any accusation, is taken unquestionably as proof of guilt? And, not to dismiss any inappropriate behavior of this nature, but how can there be no recognition of the difference between various degrees of misconduct?

So, I've been very vocal about my disagreement with any decision about or by Franken before the ethics investigation was completed. There is a lot to be suspicious about as far as the timing and nature of the accusations against him.

On the other hand, I've also been really disappointed to see so many DUers go well past that idea and into vehemently attacking Franken's accusers in misogynist ways, like saying Tweedon's behavior on stage invalidates her right to complain about sexual misconduct by others.

That's the kind of thing that's kept many women silent about abuse. Hardly different from comments like, "Well, look what she was wearing. She was asking for it," and, "You know, she did sleep around" as justification for rape.

I'll admit, my first thoughts on seeing Tweedon's behavior on stage were along the lines of it seeming odd and suspicious that she could behave that way and then be offended by Franken's actions. But I analyzed that. She was acting a version of herself on stage, and her actions may even have been loosely planned. Also, most men, while having every right to be offended by such behavior, aren't.

Well, I'm sure this is already TLDR for most, and I know I'll find few friends by refusing to take a side, but it's a complex issue. So, even if no one even gets this far, I may as well finish my thoughts.

I continue to feel it was wrong for Franken to be forced out. I feel like we are now in a great battle for Democracy and losing Franken is losing one of our best warriors. However, I believe Gillibrand and the others are also warriors in a different war and are standing on principle and in solidarity with all of women and against sexual misconduct.

As one of Gillibrand's major efforts has been working on the problem of rape and sexual harassment in the military, her call for Franken's resignation seems completely logical and consistent.

I may not believe the best decision at this moment was to stand on principle, but do think that's what those Congresswomen did. So I think it would be wrong to condemn and abandon the Democratic women in Congress for standing up for women in general.

So, there you have it. Flame away.

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Reply Supporting Gillibrand, Harris, etc., while opposing Franken's resignation (Original post)
Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2017 OP
Trumpocalypse Dec 2017 #1
OnDoutside Dec 2017 #2
Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2017 #6
Kirk Lover Dec 2017 #17
BigmanPigman Dec 2017 #3
Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2017 #4
Bradshaw3 Dec 2017 #5
Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2017 #8
Bradshaw3 Dec 2017 #13
Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2017 #12
Bradshaw3 Dec 2017 #14
Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2017 #21
Bradshaw3 Dec 2017 #25
Kirk Lover Dec 2017 #18
Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2017 #19
Kirk Lover Dec 2017 #20
Bradshaw3 Dec 2017 #26
Bradshaw3 Dec 2017 #27
riversedge Dec 2017 #7
Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2017 #9
LBM20 Dec 2017 #10
Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2017 #16
DFW Dec 2017 #11
Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2017 #15
DFW Dec 2017 #23
Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2017 #29
Demsrule86 Dec 2017 #32
sheshe2 Dec 2017 #22
Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2017 #28
Blue_true Dec 2017 #24
Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2017 #30
dansolo Dec 2017 #31
Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2017 #33

Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Original post)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 06:59 PM

1. Well said!!! nt

 

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Original post)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 07:00 PM

2. And to stand on principle, means denying someone Due Process ? Oh. Righty-o.

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Response to OnDoutside (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 07:11 PM

6. Not standing on every principle at once, that's true.

I wish they'd come out and said "If these allegations are proven... but we'll wait for the Ethics Committee's report." And brought up the accusations against Trump, Moore, etc., demanding investigations on those accusations as well.

On the other hand, Moore, Trump, etc.and their supporters could say the same thing: nothing's proven. Yet, I and most Democrats seem to think they both should step down now.

Like I said, complicated.

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Reply #6)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 07:46 PM

17. They had decided behind the scenes and among themselves that if another accuser comes

 

forth that they will call for Franken's resignation and that is what happened.

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Original post)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 07:02 PM

3. There are gray areas with many issues.

False equivalencies, apples and oranges, etc. We need to have everyone judged equally and fairly and by the same rules and with the same consequences. That isn't being done and that is why there is so much hypocrisy regarding this issue.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 07:06 PM

4. I agree with this completely.

I don't really understand why Gillibrand & co. didn't address the allegations against Trump. Moore, etc. when addressing Franken's. They should do so now.

I guess they's say they don't have standing to do so, and I say fuck that.

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Original post)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 07:07 PM

5. Who on this forum advocated "abandoning Democratic women in Congress"?

I've not seen one. I've seen people say Gillibrand won't get their vote in a primary but that isn't anywhere close to your claim that apparently multiple posters want to abandon Democratic women. That's way over the top condemnation that isn't fair to those who have criticized her.

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Response to Bradshaw3 (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 07:20 PM

8. You misinterpret that aspect of my post.

If you took my meaning to say everyone on criticizing Gillibrand, etc. is saying "abandon all Democratic women in Congress," you've misunderstood. But characterizing that as outlandishly exaggerating the response I was addressing is minimizing the extreme nature of some of the response here.

Perhaps reread what I wrote and some of the more virulent comments against those female Congress members. Or don't. But that's all I have to say on this particular point of yours.

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Reply #8)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 07:28 PM

13. I didn't misinterpret anything, just repeated what you wrote

Which was: "it would be wrong to condemn and abandon the Democratic women in Congress for standing up for women in general."

I have read some of the more extreme comments and not a single one of them meets your criteria of abandoning Democratic women in Congress. You made the comment, I didn't. As I said, some said they wouldn't vote for her in a primary. I simply asked you to back up what was an over-the-top characterization of people criticizing her and, of course, you can't. So you choose to walk away. I understand why.

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Response to Bradshaw3 (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 07:27 PM

12. In rereading your reply, I feel even more strongly that you've misrepresented my meaning.

You quoted only part of this statment and responded to me as if that was all there was to my sentence. In full I said:

So I think it would be wrong to condemn and abandon the Democratic women in Congress for standing up for women in general.


Pretty clearly I was writing of those particular women, Gillibrand, Harris, etc., who called for Franken to resign, not all "Democratic women in Congress," which your abridgement suggests.

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Reply #12)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 07:30 PM

14. I replied above

Your attempt her doesn't change what you wrote. Bolding "Standing up for women in general" doesn't change anything. You attacked posters here for "abandoning Democratic women in Congress" which not one poster has said. Give an example or take it back.

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Response to Bradshaw3 (Reply #14)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 07:50 PM

21. Actually, the bolded part is extremely important to the meaning of my sentence.

I'd go into the details, but as you clearly don't understand how English works, and are raging rather than reasoning, I'll pass on further attempts at a discussion with you.

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Reply #21)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 10:56 PM

25. No the bolded part is a deflection

As is the raging and English personal attacks. I simply asked you to back up your comment that posters are abandoning Democratic women. You couldn't and is often typical of the internet, you chose to deflect and make personal attacks because you know you can't defend what you wrote or back it up with links. If there had been such comments saying to abandon Democratic women in the Congress, those posters would have been banned. And no more discussion, just as you said earlier you wouldn't address this again - but did.

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Response to Bradshaw3 (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 07:47 PM

18. I've seen plenty of posts of folks who want her OUT now.

 

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Response to Kirk Lover (Reply #18)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 07:48 PM

19. According to some, you must be imaging that.

But I know you're correct and thank you for saying it.

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Reply #19)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 07:50 PM

20. There has been A TON...a shocking amount really and if I didn't trash all those threads I'd be glad

 

to point it out. I saw someone today call Gillibrand a bitch. That was their post... "Gillibrand is a bitch".

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Response to Kirk Lover (Reply #20)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 10:59 PM

26. So you can't back it up because you have deleted them

And while saying that is terrible it does not meet the OP's criteria of multiple posters saying we should abandon Democratic women in the house. The would be banned.

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Reply #19)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 11:01 PM

27. Doesn't confirm your characterization in the least

You wrote that posters are writing that we should abandon Democratic women in Congress. They haven't and you can't admit you overstated. I understand why.

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Original post)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 07:12 PM

7. No flame. I have many of your conflicts also. Living in

WI and doing work in Minnesota, I feel like Franken is my Senator (actually, I have adopted him since my own Senator is teabagger -sun spots-Ron Johnson). but you have stated your concerns well. thank you.

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Response to riversedge (Reply #7)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 07:22 PM

9. I imagine there are many of us with these same conflicts.

Thanks for the reply.

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Original post)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 07:23 PM

10. Al Franken was lynch mobbed and it is just SHIT and there are ZERO excuses for it! Period!

 

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Response to LBM20 (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 07:40 PM

16. That's quite the exaggeration and insult to those who've actually been lynched.

But I get your anger. Rave on.

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Original post)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 07:23 PM

11. I will support ALL of them over any Republican. Their positions on the issues are an open page

HOWEVER, I will not be ACTIVELY supporting them, unless there is some terrible dark secret that only they are privy to, and that Al Franken and his accusers are keeping from us. If that should turn out to not be the case, his Democratic accusers are damaged goods.

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Response to DFW (Reply #11)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 07:39 PM

15. Glad to hear that you'll support them against Rs.

I think I understand why you'd feel the way you do.

I wonder, do you believe the accusations against Trump should have been a factor in not voting for him? Or even, as I believe, should have disqualified him

Nothing is proven against Trump (technically, his own words that I see as proof of his predatory nature aren't actually proof of his accusers' claims). Yet many, perhaps not you, but many Dems who are extremely angry at Gillibrand, Harris, etc., have said the accusations against Trump were enough to disqualify him. And I am with them 100% because I think he did it.

As I keep saying, I think it's a very complicated.

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Reply #15)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 08:56 PM

23. Agreed: it's complicated

However, no one coordinated the accusations against Trump. Indeed, he is on tape bragging about having done exactly what he is accused of, where Franken's main accuser seems to be a manufactured creation of one of Trump's pals.

One can always conveniently recall incidents years or even decades past in a light different from what one thought at the time. However, with Moore and Trump, they seem to be gross offenses where the victim was intimidated into silence by bulling, money or political rank (of course a Prosecutor can scare the wits out of a 14 year old girl, especially in the south, where I'm from). Franken's "accusers" seem to have been mined and refined, coached and urged on. They just don't ring true as women offended, and comedians don't carry the intimidation power that a prosecutor or a billionaire does.

As for Trump, I think his accusations should have been enough to keep people from voting for him, although not to disqualify him. The disqualification should have been in the minds of the American voters already: odious personality, shocking ignorance, and flagrant dishonesty. That they weren't is a testimonial to the power of Fox Noise and the willingness of millions to vote for a garden slug for president as long as it has that magical R in front of it.

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Response to DFW (Reply #23)

Tue Dec 12, 2017, 12:33 AM

29. I agree with most of what you say here.

I think it's even worse than you say about the Trump voters. They rejected a lot of Rs to get Trump as their nominee.

They love that he is a belligerently ignorant reactionary who despises immigrants & minorities. Just like them.It seems they like those things about him so much they convinced themselves he's not selfish, dishonest, incompetent, and dangerous.

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Reply #15)

Tue Dec 12, 2017, 07:29 AM

32. I would not support those who went after Al Franken in a primary, but of course in a general

I would. But I doubt any will make it to the general after this. This won't blow over. We could lose this seat. I consider the actions of those who forced Franken out to be very foolish in political terms...flimsy evidence too.

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Original post)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 08:42 PM

22. Well done, no flames from me.

Your OP and answers too are well thought out and fairly presented. I am conflicted as well.

Thank you.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #22)

Tue Dec 12, 2017, 12:16 AM

28. Thanks, sheshe.

I respect your posts and appreciate this response.

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Original post)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 09:15 PM

24. Very thoughtful OP.

I have seen Gillibrand pilloried at DU in the most agressive and degrading way imaginable. The whole fiasco was dreadfully like some of the stuff people were saying about Hillary in 2015 and early 2016.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #24)

Tue Dec 12, 2017, 12:52 AM

30. I've seen a lot of that, too.

Things are so awful in so many ways right now, I get that most of us are almost constantly frustrated and angry. But Democrats ought to be able to disagree with Gillibrand, even be quite angry at her, or Hillary, or whomever without stooping to that sort of thing. Especially the misogynistic crap.

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Original post)

Tue Dec 12, 2017, 05:46 AM

31. Maybe Leanne Tweeden was 'acting a version of herself on stage'

Or perhaps she is a right wing Republican liar making up a story of being traumatized in order to take down a Democratic politician. We know she is liar. She claims she couldn't stand to be around him because of this incident, and yet years later she attended an event in his honor and was photographed smiling next to him. I'm sorry, but she deserves no benefit of the doubt when her motives are clearly in question.

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Response to dansolo (Reply #31)

Wed Dec 13, 2017, 12:05 AM

33. Both of those can be true.

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