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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe Sexist Skewering of Kirsten Gillibrand
Gillibrand now stands accused of being craven, disloyal, and cynically using this moment to build her brand and put herself in the national spotlight. Maybe she is – welcome to being a politician. Or maybe she’s just doing her job, but being pilloried for it because she’s widely believed to be considering a run against Donald Trump in 2020 – and as we learned in 2016, Americans remain remarkably hostile to women seeking power.
While Democratic strategists complained that Gillibrand’s remark about Clinton “reeks” of “political opportunism,” it’s easy to forget that Hillary Clinton was accused of the same thing for staying with her husband after the Lewinsky affair. And while the story is being framed as Gillibrand going after President Clinton, that’s not what happened. Gillibrand didn’t put out a statement or seek to attack President Clinton; she was asked the question directly during a podcast interview and responded in the moment (and clearly with some hesitation). She tried to pivot to President Trump, saying that the landscape of sexual harassment and assault claims is different now than it was when Clinton was president, and “I think in light of this conversation, we should have a very different conversation about President Trump, and a very different conversation about allegations against him.” Her spokesperson clarified the comments afterward, saying that Gillibrand meant that the current era is a different one than the ‘90s, and that President Clinton would be treated differently now. And really, what else could she have said and not been branded a hypocrite? So instead, she’s “the most devious and cunning politician in America today,” according to one Daily Beast columnist (and she didn’t escape the hypocrite charge either). It’s not just Clinton loyalists who are mad at her; far-right conservatives and Franken fans alike are, too, suggesting she is leading a "witch hunt" and a “lynch mob” to take down a senator without due process.
SNIP---
Gillibrand, like Clinton before her, faces a tough road. Taking aggressive positions and putting oneself in the spotlight may be normal and admirable for male politicians, but in women it's often seen as attention-seeking and power-grabbing – we like our women quiet and working hard behind the scenes. At the same time, women face expectations that we will be more moral and high-minded than our male counterparts. That a male politician might do something for political gain is to be expected; if a female politician appears to be making a carefully calculated decision, taking her political ambitions into account, she's craven and devious.
We've seen this before, and not just with Hillary Clinton and now Gillibrand. Elizabeth Warren was a nearly universally loved progressive hero until it appeared she might have greater ambitions; then she faced backlash from certain segments of the left (especially for supporting Hillary Clinton's campaign). Kamala Harris has also been on the receiving end of sustained attacks from the left and the right since it became clear she might be a promising presidential contender. And there's a reason this latest ire is directed at Gillibrand and not the many other Senate women and men who also said Franken should resign – it's because Gillibrand took on a leadership role, and might run for president. And despite her solid progressive credentials, there are a lot of people on the left who just can't stand her. There's always a reason, of course. Sometimes it's that she was too soft on guns when she represented a more conservative district in upstate New York (though "soft on guns" didn't hurt Bernie Sanders with his base), or it's that she's a "turncoat" on guns, unlike Sanders, "a paragon of political consistency." And often it's just that she's allegedly craven or power-hungry or ambitious or maybe just unpleasant – perceptions of her character and motivations that are never disqualifying for men. Just like Clinton before her, Gillibrand is branded a grown-up Tracy Flick, a reference to Reese Witherspoon's power-hungry high-school-presidential candidate in the film Election.
http://www.cosmopolitan.com/politics/a14408332/kirsten-gillibrand-al-franken-resignation-backlash/
And this was written before this:
Link to tweet
Which is why I totally agree with this:
Link to tweet
I don't think all 8 women who accused Franken are lying.
I don't think all 19 women who accused Trump are.
Funny, though, the common language used about the women involved.
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Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)
Proud Liberal Dem
(24,406 posts)I just think that she wrongly spearheaded an effort- along with other Senators- to pressure Al Franken to resign over spurious allegations.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Proud Liberal Dem
(24,406 posts)Gillibrand- along with most of the Senate Democratic Caucus- ran him out of office without allowing for a more thorough examination of those allegations through an ethics investigation that HE requested. None of the charges seemed, at least to me, serious enough to warrant Franken's immediate resignation/removal from office. Ethics investigation? Absolutely. Reprimand or Censure? Fine. Resignation/Expulsion? NO. I'm surprised that no other option but pushing for his resignation was even considered. And the severity of the charges matters more to me than the number of them.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)hearing.
The cards were stacked against him.
Don't be so damn smug
Right wingers take things out of context like that
It is dishonest trying to make a case with 10% of the facts
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)all 8 women? That's what you wanted him to do? He didn't.
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)Last edited Thu Dec 14, 2017, 11:21 PM - Edit history (1)
No probe was planned. No women were questioned. It was all done by cable news and headlines. Not one senator spoke with one accuser.
Franked acknowledged that some of his actions might have bothered some people and he apologized. None of the actions of which he is accused (accused not proven) rises nearly to the all out condemnation from his colleagues. They rushed to court public opinion, ignoring any process, any consideration of a man whose service to their party and to the American people has been incalculable. Perhaps you would want him to call all of the accusers liars and deny everything without contemplation or consideration. Then he would be like trump and moore.
Yes. It is entirely possible that all eight women just lied. At least one, lee ann tweeden, did. She started this and then there was a pile on. There was the woman who said Al touched her side and she didn't allow anyone to touch her side except her husband. A little extreme if you go to get selfies with famous people. It would have all come out in the investigation had Gellibrand let one occur. The accusers did want an investigation. tweeden was particularly vociferous on that account. She literally blanched when the subject came up. No, no she cried. I forgive him. We don't need an inquiry. Why would she be so leary of an investigation that would have had testimony from the other people there? I guess she wouldn't want the other photos of her groping the buttocks of the guitarist or the testimony from Al's military guard who has said that he didn't see anything like tweeden alleged.
To assert that it is not possible for a woman to lie about this is sexism itself. Women can have just as base a motive (publishing contract with breirbart support) as men. This behavior diminishes the #MeToo movement and it's goals.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)You seem to believe accusations more than denials. Take a look at this thread. Many more find your arguments inane and offensive and counterproductive - many more than those who have fallen for the breitbart trick. Are you capable of examining how come so many liberal, progressive minds disagree with your findings? Are they all stupid misogynists? Are you the sole voice on DU for women's rights?
There is a reason you are in the minority on a liberal forum. You like things black and white, with no area for overlap. So which is it? Are the majority of DU members misogynists? Is that your claim?
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)I can understand why you would want to be cryptic, pretending you have a grasp of something. On this liberal site, you are bucking the movement by falling for the breitbart lies. Most of us get it.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)his supposed friends and fellow party members turn their backs and believe the lies about him, that means he is guilty.
By what passes for your reasoning, trump and moore are innocent. They didn't resign.
Your desire to excuse sloppy thinking and being duped by breitbart is causing you to argue both sides of the issue. Your reasoning goes this way: "I think this. So whatever happens, that proves what I think. Even if I argue for what I condemn and condemn what I argue for."
I don't blame Al for resigning. Who would want to be a part of a group of hypocrites. Your kind of thinking is the kind of thinking that cost us the last election.
Owl
(3,641 posts)
BlueWI
(1,736 posts)
Butterflylady
(3,542 posts)Proud Liberal Dem
(24,406 posts)but he wasn't prepared to resign AFAIK until nearly all of the Democratic Senators piled on him last week. Franken is a smart and honorable person and probably did it because he felt that he was becoming a distraction, so he decided to take the "issue" off the table. You can't deny that it was probably going to be impossible for him to stay in office when he was under pressure from nearly every Democrat in the Senate.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)distraction.
Butterflylady
(3,542 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)After Franken was shown the rope by the lynch mob and assured he would be shunned if he stayed, he "chose to resign."
What a joke.
And now his seat is in play for the republicans! Good job guys! 
In Franken's Fall, Sudden Senate Pickup Chance for Republicans
By Kyle Potter & Thomas Beaumont December 08, 2017
Franken’s exit gives Republicans an opening to expand their reach in an already favorable Senate map — two dozen Democratic senators are up for re-election next year, including 10 in states that President Donald Trump carried in 2016. That difficult math raises the question of whether Dayton will appoint a temporary placeholder or try to give a Democrat a running start for the 2018 campaign.
Former Gov. Tim Pawlenty — the last Republican to win a statewide election in Minnesota, in 2006 — was seen as a potential heavyweight contender in the GOP.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2017/12/08/in_frankens_fall_sudden_senate_pickup_chance_for_republicans_135730.html
Nope, no profiles in courage here just a pack of suckers for Trump and the republican party.
LenaBaby61
(6,974 posts)Dems vs Dems (And one Independent) in a circular firing squad.
JimBeard
(293 posts)from now and the deadline for registering to be on the ballot in Texas has passed, December 7th.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)You persist in repeating the lie that he has already resigned.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)He announced that in the coming weeks he would be resigning. Maybe your grasp of english is not that good, but the only past tense is that he announced. Perhaps you need a better translation program to aid you.
You keep say that he resigned. At this moment in time, he is still a member of the US Senate. That doesn'y fit your narritive of he must be guilty because he resigned, so you keep lying about it.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)Listen to his speech on the Senate floor. He did not announce that he had resigned, he announced that he would be resigning ad he could not be an effective senator while fight allegations.
One would think with the energy that you have fought against a Democratic Senator, your focus would turn to calling for Trump to resign, yet you focus on anti-Democratic divisive arguments. The hypocrisy is telling.
We should be talking about the terrible tax scam, the FCC vote to end Net Neutrality, the child molester in Alabama, the rapist in the White House and you spend your time on anti-Democratic attacks.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)That is a a fact.
Response to VermontKevin (Reply #175)
Post removed
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)BTW, nice to see that you managed to eke out a negative comment on a Republican, even if you had to stoop as low as Farthold to squeak it out.
And yes, Smith will replace Franken, WHEN he resigns.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Ok, maybe.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)Did you unwittingly show your true origin, perhaps?
Oops...
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)Or anywhere close to it. Maybe explains why you attack Democratic figures so vigorously...
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)Like I said, it would neatly explain some of your posting interests of late.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)It comes up as:
Link to tweet
/photo/1
Interesting that your internet connection routes through Greece and you are seemingly unaware of it. Either you are feigning ignorance or you have bigger issues to worry about than attacking Democratic senators.
Hope your bank accounts are not accessed through that computer...
In either case, good luck with that...
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)
Denzil_DC
(7,233 posts)If I click through on that link (I've got cast-iron AV, touch wood, so I'm brave like that), DU behaves like I'm not signed in.
OK, hands up everybody who views DU via the demu.gr domain.
My hand's down, BTW.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Denzil_DC
(7,233 posts)rather than obfuscation. That sort of thing can make a person suspicious.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)Maybe he was hacked or is using a hacked OS, but if he is routing through Greece and is a legit poster, I hope he doesn't do Internet banking through that computer.
His rabid attacks on my senator don't sit well with me, so I wouldn't trust a thing he says. In fairness, I did see a post of his that said that Farthold was a sack of shit, but that is common knowledge.
Denzil_DC
(7,233 posts)I clicked through and tried navigating around a little, but there's no way I'm rash enough to log in at that domain with my DU details! It could be anything, and I can't find any info online that would explain why DU apparently runs a .gr domain.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)To save space when sharing links to DU, we have created a new URL shortener: demu.gr
It works on any Democratic Underground URL. Just change "democraticunderground.com" to "demu.gr" and leave the rest of the URL the same. Whenever someone visits a demu.gr page, our software recognizes the short URL and automatically swaps in the full democraticunderground.com address. Check it out:
http://demu.gr
http://demu.gr/?com=latest_threads
http://demu.gr/?com=greatest_threads
http://demu.gr/?com=forums
And here are links to two discussion threads:
http://demu.gr/1002965677
http://demu.gr/1014169738
In addition, the "Tweet" button on every DU thread has been programmed to automatically place the shortened URL into your tweet.
We will be integrating this URL shortening functionality into other DU features in the future.
https://upload.democraticunderground.com/10131784
Denzil_DC
(7,233 posts)Finally an explanation.
The site works very weirdly if you click through when the demu.gr link's posted on DU rather than Twitter, though, as I mentioned above (click on the link on Twitter and it expands to a normal one and everything works as expected; it doesn't if you do that here). Better if folks post normal untruncated links on DU.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Response to VermontKevin (Reply #223)
Post removed
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)grammar yesterday.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)Have a nice life.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)You are copying YOUR view of DU. Not an admin's view. You have no way of accessing an admin's view.
Reposting the same URLs that you see is just drawing attention to the fact that you are either located in a foreign country or have been cluelessly hacked so all your traffic is routed through a country known for hacking.
How's the weather there in Greece? How many Euros does you internet connection cost?
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)I copied a link from a well-known DUer and DU admin. I think you are really, really sore I corrected your grammar yesterday. That's understandable. When a person accuses someone else of being a Russian troll, and then gets their grammar corrected by that 'troll' it must be infuriating.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)It's OK to be ignorant about how the Internet works, that only means one doesn't know something.
Being willingly stupid is a whole other thing. What ever.
BTW the way, in English, your corrected a 'typo' - spelling mistake. Grammar had nothing to do with it.
Good luck in not letting your bank accounts leak out through that Greek internet connection you have...
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)I shall alert Tor of your concerns. Immediately.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)You feel that you have to hide. Why?
Very informative... You were just ignorant of what US URL look like.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)tammywammy
(26,582 posts)To save space when sharing links to DU, we have created a new URL shortener: demu.gr
It works on any Democratic Underground URL. Just change "democraticunderground.com" to "demu.gr" and leave the rest of the URL the same. Whenever someone visits a demu.gr page, our software recognizes the short URL and automatically swaps in the full democraticunderground.com address. Check it out:
http://demu.gr
http://demu.gr/?com=latest_threads
http://demu.gr/?com=greatest_threads
http://demu.gr/?com=forums
And here are links to two discussion threads:
http://demu.gr/1002965677
http://demu.gr/1014169738
In addition, the "Tweet" button on every DU thread has been programmed to automatically place the shortened URL into your tweet.
We will be integrating this URL shortening functionality into other DU features in the future.
https://upload.democraticunderground.com/10131784
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)posting from my luxury villa on the Greek Isles. It's very James Bond, really.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)Now a liberal person looking to mention the backer of an anti-Democratic operative would pick the Koch brothers, Sheldon Adelson or some other conservative billionaire. Very interesting indeed that someone who has devoted so much time to attacking a Democratic senator views George Soros in a negative light...
I'm growing tired of feeding your obvious anti-Democratic screeds, so I'm not continuing this particular thread, but rest assured that I will counter your lies whenever I come across them.
Go ahead and knee jerk another response to kick your OP. BTW, since I know that it annoys you, Al Franken is still Minnesota's senator as he has not resigned yet, although he will at some point in the future.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)
rzemanfl
(29,556 posts)
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)And it was in his best interest to resign.
I am so fucking sick of the play on words here. They OUSTED him and she lead the charge.
LexVegas
(6,059 posts)
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)
LexVegas
(6,059 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)I was aghast.
LexVegas
(6,059 posts)meow2u3
(24,761 posts)
whathehell
(29,067 posts)
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)whathehell
(29,067 posts)
Bleacher Creature
(11,256 posts)It's really quite disturbing and, in a sense, I actually feel more isolated her now than I ever did at any point in 2016.
It's good to see I'm not alone.
LexVegas
(6,059 posts)Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)did this out for political reasons or she was played by the GOP...neither makes me want to support her in a presidential primary...naturally I would vote for her if she won the nomination but she won't. Also, when an accusation is enough to get many guys fired with no other evidence needed...I feel it has become a witch hunt. The entire thing is wrong. It will not end well.
Dorian Gray
(13,491 posts)because she found the behavior problematic?
That option doesn't exist?
Because 1 or 2 may be right, but perhaps option 3 may have some traction.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)does not rise to the level of resignation. I don't believe it is true anyway...first two ...right wingers...all others anonymous. She should have showed loyalty to her colleague and party by letting it play out...It is not her job to attack fellow Democrats. She showed a lack of judgement. I am still furious and worried that we may not get our new Senators seated.
brush
(53,764 posts)Al Franken without an investigation.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)Katha Pollitt, writer, The Nation.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)pay off his sexual harassment victim...but of course a joke during a USO tour and touching someone's waist in a picture is so much worse. This is why I cancelled my subscription to the Nation...they spend their time attacking the democrats and letting the GOP go merrily about their business of destroying the country. I believe they hate Democrats and the party more than they dislike the GOP...and promote the meme that the parties are the 'same' which they are not.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)Everyone has the right to their opinion...let the chips fall where they may.
JimBeard
(293 posts)extremist who love using the alert button to stifle opinion. Their feelings are hurt. Most of you need to be a Feminist with a sensible mind like Demsrule86. When she speaks in moderation, it calms me down.
The others like to throw gasoline on fire. Pay attention to her post's.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)We can appeal unfair alerts thankfully.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)of criticism that's greeted her since the Franken resignation.
Sadly, one sometimes sees something very similar here and other Lefty sites....Sexist slurs against Conservative women because, in their minds, it seems it's "okay" to do this to "those" women.
They would never attack Conservative African Americans or Latinos with racial sluts -- and of course, they should not -- but the rules are much less strict, it seems, for women...Big surprise.
..
Kirk Lover
(3,608 posts)
fleabiscuit
(4,542 posts)Egnever
(21,506 posts)If it is sexist to resist someone who prosecutes someone with little or no actual consideration of either the charges or the character of the person being charged.
I guess I will have to consider myself a sexist.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)When several of those charges are shaky, to say the least, and the person accused asks for an investigation, which is provided for in the Senate rules and theretofor, Sen. Gillibrand did not demand that any Republican resign for worse behavior, yes.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)an undertaking that would negatively affect his constituents, you disagreed with him, why?
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)I hoped he wouldn't resign but he decided otherwise. And given the sudden onslaught against him led by Gillibrand, at that point, he was probably right. A fair and thoughtful Senate ethics investigation is one thing - Senators go through them all the time without any damage to their constituents. Trying to go through a Senate ethics investigation and represent your constituents while your colleagues are screaming for your head is quite another.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)Democratic Senators? You can try to spin it but that is not what happened.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)And I am supposed I to believe he groped a woman while her hubs took a picture...no. As for the others...the are anonymous so they shouldn't even be considered. Even if all allegations are true...it does not warrant removal from the Senate. But I think it is right wing lies and at some point the truth will out.
MikeydaDog
(140 posts)I had not considered that. I would really like to hear the info from Franken rather than assume at the expense of my other Democratic Leaders.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)all.
JimBeard
(293 posts)Egnever
(21,506 posts)With no consideration of any other details you bet. Far more women who have actually spent time with the man came out in support with examples of his actual behavior.
Not a single one of those charges was credible. If a number is your sole gauge you are dangerous in my opinion.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)for, over 8 separate charges is a worthy endeavor?
Franken didn't think it was.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)You appear to have looked no further than the number. You appear to have not even listened to his statements. He apologized for the picture that is it.
Yet you want to conflate that with him apologizing to all the charges when in fact he denied them. I find your judgement as lacking as Gillibrands and the other 32.
We can do better.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)therefore, continuing the Senate probe after 8 separate accusations would negatively affect his constituents.
I believe him.
Lotusflower70
(3,077 posts)I believe he took one for the team. I feel anger and betrayal. I also feel he was forced out. I can believe women, I can also believe in due process.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Lotusflower70
(3,077 posts)He chose to take one for the team. He felt betrayed by his own.
kcr
(15,315 posts)The anonymous claims shouldn't even count. We're left with the one that claims she suddenly moved right before the picture was taken, a Trump humper, one where the FB page was never even found, a Trump humper, and Tweeden, coached by Roger Stone and also a Trump humper and the one who spearheaded the whole thing.
So the Dems deserve the criticism they're getting, and Gillibrand is receiving the brunt of it because she led the charge. It isn't sexism in the least.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Senate Ethics Committee to sift through them all, call all the women, and make 8 separate determinations?
kcr
(15,315 posts)This is a dog and pony show meant to railroad a good senator. It doesn't matter if there is anything to these charges. It's just the sheer amount. All they have to do is manufacture and pad the numbers and then claim that's enough to demand a resignation. Thanks for making that point for me.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Response to VermontKevin (Reply #44)
Name removed Message auto-removed
The Polack MSgt
(13,186 posts)How many former sailors were in on the Swift Boat Farce?
Franken was railroaded out of the Senate.
And IMHO it was weak.
Attacking any woman politicians the way some are going after Senator Gillebrand is just as wrong as the sexist attacks on Secretary Clinton, but that bullshit is separate from hating how the Democratic Party handled this.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)JimBeard
(293 posts)Are all 8 lying? That is for some type of a board of inquiry to determine.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)I am not.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Successful men do harass. They act in ways that are abusive and sometimes illegal. Too many of us are under the impression that the people who do this are losers, and that’s not the case. Liberal men, high-achieving men, educated men, men who claim to support women, can be harassers. Maybe that will help change people’s minds about what’s happening in their own community, their own workplace, and their own campus. It may not be Harvey Weinstein doing these things, but it may be someone like Harvey Weinstein, who is prominent and progressive, who is abusing women.
There’s a myth that sexual harassment is something that happens just with Republicans instead of Democrats. People weren’t surprised that Roger Ailes harassed because Roger Ailes is conservative. When a conservative harasses or engages in misconduct, the thinking is that they’re being hypocritical. They’re the ones who tell us harassment doesn’t exist, or if it does, it’s not a big problem. When liberals harass, I think there’s a sense of betrayal, because they’re the ones who are saying we believe in women’s equality. There’s a different emotional reaction, but it’s still painful and it’s still difficult for women to come forward. It doesn’t matter who’s doing it.
When we put harassers in a political category, we’re doing that based on a failure to look at the reality of harassment. One of the paradoxes is that very liberal industries like entertainment, like tech, are still producing or reproducing the same types of behavior that have been going on in more traditional settings all along.
I do believe that people can change their behavior, but I think that after 30 years, you don’t get a chance to change and pretend it didn’t happen. Harvey Weinstein’s behavior continued beyond the ’60s and ’70s, so when he says, “I came of age in that era,” it is no excuse.
https://blackamericaweb.com/2017/10/10/sexual-harassment-isnt-just-for-republicans-according-to-anita-hill/
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)https://www.salon.com/2017/11/22/anita-hill-still-blames-joe-biden-for-the-clarence-thomas-disaster/
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/anita-hill-schools-hollywood-sexual-harassment
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2017/11/24/rewatching-joe-bidens-disastrous-anita-hill-hearing-a-sexual-harassment-inquistion/
Maybe Clarence Fucking Thomas hasn't impacted your life.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)brush
(53,764 posts)VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)brush
(53,764 posts)VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)brush
(53,764 posts)VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)brush
(53,764 posts)VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Denzil_DC
(7,233 posts)who had Franken hung, drawn and quartered from the get-go over dozens and dozens of posts and replies in the last few weeks - a dozen or more within 12 hours on one day - he hasn't resigned yet. Why, it could be construed as a vendetta against a Democrat if one was uncharitably-minded.
If the caucus turns around and by some chance decides that since Trump's dug his heels in, Franken shouldn't go - about the only strategic move that might belatedly make sense of this mess, and for which the caucus might well be lauded as having acted cleverly - then there'll be plenty of egg on faces to go round.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Denzil_DC
(7,233 posts)Quite hyperactive on this issue, aren't you?
So the steamrollering continues, and the other points in my post go unanswered. Franken has yet to resign.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Denzil_DC
(7,233 posts)Nor for conveniently ignoring my other points.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)Dayton can announce who he would replace Franken with when and if he resigns.
Do you employers know that you do not understand the conjugation of simple English verbs? Hope you aren't getting paid for translating or writing skills.
Denzil_DC
(7,233 posts)I see the need to impart a little logic is ably taken care of on this thread, so I'll bow out.
Good luck. In my experience, this poster's impervious to argument and tireless in pursuit of his vendetta against a sitting Democratic senator.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)When will you cease anti-Democratic attacks?
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)Other than the original OP, it's mostly been attacking a sitting Democratic senator.
Why are you not attacking Trump for sexual misconduct? You disparage one of his dumbass tweets, but will not accuse him of sexual misconduct, much less call for his resignation. The hypocrisy is telling.
Here's photo evidence of what broke the camel's back in your hero's quest to oust Franken. Please tell us why you continue to remain silent on this?
Denzil_DC
(7,233 posts)In numerous replies to this OP, you've referred to "8 charges" against Franken.
Here we go again:
THERE ARE NO CHARGES.
If there were, there'd be due process.
Why are you so intent on repeatedly smearing a sitting Democratic senator with untruths?
JimBeard
(293 posts)I believe she is worried.
Response to VermontKevin (Reply #148)
JimBeard This message was self-deleted by its author.
I am sick and tired of the confusion about what sexual assault is. So many victims dismissed. A movement belittled and minimized by people that are looking for attention. The false accusations make it so much harder for victims to come forward and so much easier for the other side to exploit. The thought is if one is lying, they all are. But a blanket statement of believe the women is telling as well. This was handled so poorly and only increased the divide. And pushing the starter of the #MeToo movement aside sends a horrible message to WOC.
Denzil_DC
(7,233 posts)Let me spell it out in all caps:
THERE ARE NO CHARGES.
There are allegations.
For someone so fixated on numbers and pedantry, you seem to be conveniently loose with the idea of what charges actually are, and equally conveniently loose with the concept of when a Democratic senator has actually resigned rather than saying he will at some point in the future.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Denzil_DC
(7,233 posts)Repeatedly in your replies in this thread, you've used the word "charges".
My turn to repeat:
THERE ARE NO CHARGES.
If there were, there'd be due process.
You've smeared a sitting Democratic senator, again and again.
Now try wriggling out of that.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Unless Franken can travel time.
Two claims unsubstantiated with photographic evidence that actually shows the opposite.
One insane claim that a hand around the waist is sexual assault.
The rest Anonymous sources that could be Roger Stone for all we know.
One admission of guilt for a gag photo that was apologized over.
Franken denies EVERYTHING except the photo.
You need more substantive info to adopt a fucking barn cat.
Response to Egnever (Reply #5)
Tipperary This message was self-deleted by its author.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Tipperary
(6,930 posts)
ProfessorGAC
(64,995 posts)This just says Oluo and Canes have the same tunnel vision that Gillibrand showed and are perfectly willing to rush to judgment.
Everyone has pet causes. Most can attend to those and still see a broader view. It's not one of the other, no matter what Oluo says.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)She did not go after Trump until she faced negative feedback for her actions regarding Franken. If she had not gotten backlash, she would likely still be silent.
Really interesting that the anti-Franken crowd is now so pro-Gillibrand, almost like they are moving on to create more controversy.
And people wonder why half the eligible population doesn't vote
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)How Kirsten Gillibrand Is Outsmarting Donald Trump
The Senate's unapologetic feminist is leading the resistance against Trump
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/how-kirsten-gillibrand-is-outsmarting-donald-trump-w501354
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)
leftstreet
(36,106 posts)We're not talking about 'resisting' a POTUS who was suddenly, shockingly discovered to be a sexist asshole. He won the election!
Sounds to me like Trump is the only one who 'outsmarted' here
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)From September:
How Kirsten Gillibrand Is Outsmarting Donald Trump
The Senate's unapologetic feminist is leading the resistance against Trump
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/how-kirsten-gillibrand-is-outsmarting-donald-trump-w501354
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)This is your idea of proof that she called for Trump's resignation specifically due to sexual misconduct?
Lordy....obviously you haven't been paying attention to your source material for disruption.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)hold them to this standard.
Positive that you are.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)BTW, for someone so obsessed with numbers, 32 is wrong...
You really need to do some more studying.
JimBeard
(293 posts)ProfessorGAC
(64,995 posts)Yes, tunnel vision on 2 charges
brush
(53,764 posts)said he groped her waist. Most of the ones in between the two extremely shakey ones were anonymous so you preoccupation with the number 8 is meaningless.
Since you love numbers so much, how about 1 investigation?
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)brush
(53,764 posts)VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)brush
(53,764 posts)Sailor65x1
(554 posts)This episode has been very telling.
BannonsLiver
(16,369 posts)VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)BannonsLiver
(16,369 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)vote?
When has that EVER happened?
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)to people of the highest principles who are committed to ending sex discrimination and only want to hold one of our female senators to their standard. And, I'm sure, one of our male ones also for balance.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)LexVegas
(6,059 posts)BannonsLiver
(16,369 posts)LexVegas
(6,059 posts)
BannonsLiver
(16,369 posts) VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)BannonsLiver
(16,369 posts)VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)BannonsLiver
(16,369 posts)
I guess Mueller can stand down.
LexVegas
(6,059 posts)VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)MikeydaDog
(140 posts)We painted HRC as a liar, cause, all women lie. All the way back to Eve. Women recognize this conversation. I am glad it is being had.
ismnotwasm
(41,976 posts)I was done with it a long time ago. I’m not actually a Gillibrand fan—or I wasn’t, she’s kicking some ass right now— but this bullshit makes me so tired. I’m going just keep posting from this Andrea Dworkin speech. She said it all over 30 tears ago.
Say it to your friends who are doing it. And there are streets out there on which you can say these things loud and dear, so as to affect the actual institutions that maintain these abuses. You don't like pornography? I wish I could believe it's true. I will believe it when I see you on the streets. I will believe it when I see an organized political opposition. I will believe it when pimps go out of business because there are no more male consumers.
You want to organize men. You don't have to search for issues. The issues are part of the fabric of your everyday lives.
I want to talk to you about equality, what equality is and what it means. It isn't just an idea. It's not some insipid word that ends up being bullshit. It doesn't have anything at all to do with all those statements like: "Oh, that happens to men too." I name an abuse and I hear: "Oh, it happens to men too." That is not the equality we are struggling for. We could change our strategy and say: well, okay, we want equality; we'll stick something up the ass of a man every three minutes.
You've never heard that from the feminist movement, because for us equality has real dignity and importance--it's not some dumb word that can be twisted and made to look stupid as if it had no real meaning.
As a way of practicing equality, some vague idea about giving up power is useless. Some men have vague thoughts about a future in which men are going to give up power or an individual man is going to give up some kind of privilege that he has. That is not what equality means either.
Equality is a practice. It is an action. It is a way of life. It is a social practice. It is an economic practice. It is a sexual practice. It can't exist in a vacuum. You can't have it in your home if, when the people leave the home, he is in a world of his supremacy based on the existence of his cock and she is in a world of humiliation and degradation because she is perceived to be inferior and because her sexuality is a curse.
This is not to say that the attempt to practice equality in the home doesn't matter. It matters, but it is not enough. If you love equality, if you believe in it, if it is the way you want to live--not just men and women together in a home, but men and men together in a home and women and women together in a home--if equality is what you want and what you care about, then you have to fight for the institutions that will make it socially real.
It is not just a matter of your attitude. You can't think it and make it exist. You can't try sometimes, when it works to your advantage, and throw it out the rest of the time. Equality is a discipline. It is a way of life. It is a political necessity to create equality in institutions. And another thing about equality is that it cannot coexist with rape. It cannot. And it cannot coexist with pornography or with prostitution or with the economic degradation of women on any level, in any way. It cannot coexist, because implicit in all those things is the inferiority of women.
I want to see this men's movement make a commitment to ending rape because that is the only meaningful commitment to equality. It is astonishing that in all our worlds of feminism and antisexism we never talk seriously about ending rape. Ending it. Stopping it. No more. No more rape. In the back of our minds, are we holding on to its inevitability as the last preserve of the biological? Do we think that it is always going to exist no matter what we do? All of our political actions are lies if we don't make a commitment to ending the practice of rape. This commitment has to be political. It has to be serious. It has to be systematic. It has to be public. It can't be self-indulgent.
The things the men's movement has wanted are things worth having. Intimacy is worth having. Tenderness is worth having. Cooperation is worth having. A real emotional life is worth having. But you can't have them in a world with rape. Ending homophobia is worth doing. But you can't do it in a world with rape. Rape stands in the way of each and every one of those things you say you want. And by rape you know what I mean. A judge does not have to walk into this room and say that according to statute such and such these are the elements of proof. We're talking about any kind of coerced sex, including sex coerced by poverty.
You can't have equality or tenderness or intimacy as long as there is rape, because rape means terror. It means that part of the population lives in a state of terror and pretends--to please and pacify you--that it doesn't. So there is no honesty. How can there be? Can you imagine what it is like to live as a woman day in and day out with the threat of rape? Or what it is like to live with the reality? I want to see you use those legendary bodies and that legendary strength and that legendary courage and the tenderness that you say you have in behalf of women; and that means against the rapists, against the pimps, and against the pornographers. It means something more than a personal renunciation. It means a systematic, political, active, public attack. And there has been very little of that.
http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/WarZoneChaptIIIE.html
brer cat
(24,559 posts)fleabiscuit
(4,542 posts)snort
(2,334 posts)gee, ratfucking works.
crazycatlady
(4,492 posts)Is that acceptable?
I don't find it acceptable to call any woman a whore. I don't care about her politics. I'd say the same if this were Sarah Palin we were talking about.
crazycatlady
(4,492 posts)THier readers are not exactly the people who read Time or Newsweek and hopefully articles like this inspire a new generation of women to run for office.
ebbie15644
(1,214 posts)LexVegas
(6,059 posts) MikeydaDog
(140 posts)LexVegas
(6,059 posts)MikeydaDog
(140 posts)MikeydaDog
(140 posts)Not a tough one. Actually looking at the facts, as this article has spelled out for so many, not tough to be able to appreciate both, Franken and Gillibrand.
IF our goal is to destroy Gillibrand like the effort with HRC, DWS, Harris, facts will be ignored because that agenda cannot be met with facts.
I oppose that thinking much more than any one person.
ebbie15644
(1,214 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)bdamomma
(63,836 posts)better gather up her colleagues if that POS Roy Moore gets in we will see fireworks then.
Oh and by the way, never underestimate the power of a woman/women.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)If we lose the seat... she will be in trouble for sure. I don't want to see her primaried...or hate her...dislike her a bit but I think it was wrong period to go after Franken... I don't trust anonymous and the two we do know about are righties. I think she and all who sided with her showed a lack of judgment. I won't vote for them in a primary, but would in a general. I think we should look outside the Senate myself for the 2020 nominee.
bdamomma
(63,836 posts)was in the right place at the wrong time. It was a perfect storm for the hit on Senator Franken, it was precipitated by the filthy jerks on the right (to set him up cause he was on Sessions) and #metoo movement, they piled on him and pushed him out. He was the most up front and aggressive Senator with his questioning tactics against Sessions, now Sessions is breathing a sigh of relief, who will be hard on Sessions now????
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)JimBeard
(293 posts)
JHan
(10,173 posts)There's alot going on here - double standards, intellectual dishonesty too. I didn't agree with gilibrand but the criticisms of her reeks , and I fully get the politics at play here. Funny how some politicians are given room and others not.
MikeydaDog
(140 posts)
nini
(16,672 posts)The links some of these women have to shifty repukes is enough to make me think the Franken situation needed to be investigated - that's all.
Victims should never be shamed, but people acting like victims for political purposes shouldn't get away with it either.
Crunchy Frog
(26,579 posts)I don't consider myself sexist (I'm a woman if that makes any difference).
I'm not upset with her for acting like a politician, or for going after power, I'm upset because she did it by stomping on the face of a fellow Dem.
I'm more upset with her than her colleagues because she chose to position herself as the ringleader. I would be just as upset with any man who did the same. I don't think it's feminist to go easy on someone just because they're female.
No matter the number, accusations that are highly questionable and mostly anonymous don't equal guilt. Or do you not think the R smear machine is capable of producing numbers of those sorts of accusations?
I hope the posters currently gloating over Franken's demise will be happy if, next year, we have Senator Pawlenty instead.
Owl
(3,641 posts)DemRage
(16 posts)Let the misogynistic haters live with it. You are doing good work!!!
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)will be the end of the #MeToo movement.
Kirsten screwed up. Men and women are equals. Women and men are driven by the same desires and goals. She can screw up and do stupid things just as much as man can. The measure of her humanity and wisdom is whether she has the ability to reflect and reconsider her actions. Right now she just comes off as someone chasing press and the presidency just as hard as any man. I call men on their screw ups. Women too.
But if you call anyone who ever disagrees with a woman misogynistic and a hater, you are denying the equality of the sexes.
Let's see whether you are reflective or reflexive.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)Stop blaming victims of sexual aggression, and stop withholding punishment for men who are found guilty.
It does not mean, “Women’s accusations will no longer require investigation, and will stand even without prima facie evidence.”
Ugh... I want to say more but I’ve been up all night. I can’t brain any longer.
JimBeard
(293 posts)Should I alert the administrators?
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)No one forced him to take THAT photo. No one stopped him from getting counseling before he went into office. Yes, this stinks of the classic GOP distraction technique where they say "well what about this" to hide any of THEIR GUILT. However, that does nto change the fact Al Franken should have gotten a lid on this.
Yes it sucks that the GOP happily places in the very sort of people they claim to hare when it make the Koch Brothers happy, and yes I get tired of the fact that the "high road" often gets you killed, but if we allow people we like a license to be scumbags, we will be dragged him them over the cliff.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)I posted before and got pilloried for it—But Gillibrand has centered her career around sexual harassment/assault/abuse. She couldn’t NOT do this otherwise she comes across as a hypocrite.
dflprincess
(28,075 posts)McCaskill helped blocked Gillibrand's bill that would have done something about sexual assault in the military and by doing so McCaskill harmed more women than Franken's alleged groping ever did. BTW - Al supported Gillibrand's bill and he was quite outspoken about the way assault victims who work for military contractors are treated.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)What would an inquiry prove ? We would be where we are today with most of the incidents confirmed with Franken and his accusers remembering them differently. Franken said as much in his resignation speech , "Some of the allegations against me are simply not true. Others, I remember very differently."
That's an empirical observation, not a normative one. The resolution of Franken's situation is above my pay grade. I only want what's good for my party, and by extension the nation, as I believe my party for all it's flaws has its best interests at heart.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)I am displeased with the male Senators who signed on too...this has nothing to do with Gillibrand being a woman..and everything to do with her actions. I dislike the fact that Franken was forced out period. And comparing Hillary Clinton's decision to stay with her husband to what Gillibrand did is ridiculous...one was a personal matter- one was not. Your posts makes does not help Sen. Gillibrand...it make me dislike her more. If she runs in the 2020 presidential primary, I won't vote for her...if she is the nominee, I will vote for her,but it won't happen.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)and I don't fault the women who called out this behavior. I don't fault the spouses. I think fault resides with the men who do this conduct, and not scapegoats who decry it.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)Notice that they are going after journalists now that lean left with these same sort of accusations. Don't fall for their lies.
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
(107,922 posts)The right played us on Acorn and Shirley Sherrod.
kwalter66
(80 posts)Democrats manage to snatch defeat right out of the jaws of victory. And the crowd cheers. Then the crowd will sit in bewilderment and ponder why they lost. Again!
BlueStater
(7,596 posts)If she wants to wage war on Trump, I'll gladly support her on that. However, if she intends to escalate her political career by destroying Franken's, then she can just piss off.
FreeStateDemocrat
(2,654 posts)VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)That is a personal point of view...some argue that she lead the charge. I believe Franken was railroaded by members of his own party and mine using righty lies...this endangers the seat...and anything that helps the GOP is wrong in my opinion. Thus I don't feel kindly towards any of them. I would vote for any of them in a general but not in a primary. I have concluded that we need to broaden our search for a good nominee...perhaps we don't need to only focus on Senators. I want a fighter who can take on the right wing.
Alea
(706 posts)Then she's crazier than I thought. Trump isn't going to resign over this and she should have known that. He also don't have to deal with any lawsuits while in office. He may have to claim executive privileged, but there are laws in place that keep Presidents from having to deal with everyone in the country suing them and tying them up in court while in office. They can go after him when he's out of office but probably won't. I'd like to see them follow through but most accusers go away once there's no longer a political motive and lawyers pushing it quit supporting them for free, also because it's not political anymore. Sad fact but it is what it is.
If Franken was sacrificed for womens rights, then fine, but if he was sacrificed so so Kirsten Gillibrand could make a big splash and get trump to resign, she blew it.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Kinda great.
Alea
(706 posts)So many of these women get dragged through the political system when it counts politically, then forgotten about afterwards. If trump don't resign over this, and when he's out of office in 2020 hopefully, or sooner, will Kirsten still help these women? If moore loses tonight and his accusers are no longer needed, will they still be supported by the WaPo, Gloria Allred? I hope so, but it's usually not the case.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)endanger Senate seats...and I will repeat...even if every word was proven against Franken ( and I don't believe it), it would not warrant a resignation...and if we lose that seat, I doubt anyone who went on record calling for a Franken resignation will fare well in a presidential primary ...nor should they.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)can no longer have.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)"regardless of party lines". We cannot afford to have our elected sit in judgement of each other based on 'principles' that would encourage them to attack one another, and thus elect Republicans. Personally, I am not convinced, this was not done to further her own career at the expense of the Democratic Party and Franken;she should have waited for the investigation. Trump would never resign because she asked him to so the argument she did this to make that happen is laughable. And I would never 'sacrifice' one of our own for any movement...not even the 'Woman's movement". And of course this is foolish because we could get a Republican in that seat voting against women.
(somehow replied to myself!) But here you go...don't get me involved in your endless 'list this' or 'prove' that...so no list... but I think I clearly explained my beliefs.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)"regardless of party lines". We cannot afford to have our elected sit in judgement of each other based on 'principles' that would encourage them to attack one another, and thus elect Republicans. Personally, I am not convinced, this was not done to further her own career at the expense of the Democratic Party and Franken;she should have waited for the investigation. Trump would never resign because she asked him to so the argument she did this to make that happen is laughable. And I would never 'sacrifice' one of our own for any movement...not even the 'Woman's movement". And of course this is foolish because we could get a Republican in that seat voting against women.
LenaBaby61
(6,974 posts)Then she's crazier than I thought."
Once Gillibrand went down the road she did with Franken (NO due process), who didn't think that fatso wouldn't start attacking & belittling her? You know he's coming after her with both twitter barrels.
It's gonna get a LOT worse if she does end up running for POTUS in 2020. I can see Bannon and other thuglicans combing through her background, tying her to Hillary/Bill Clinton (Her throwing them under the bus again as a result) and finding a kernel of something and twisting it completely out of shape to make her look bad. But then again, they may not need to do too much because they're mostly in control of collecting and counting votes across this country. Throw in gerrymandering, voter cross-checking, expanding voter-ID, voter-purging & help to thuglicans from the ruskies who aren't anywhere close to being stopped ....
Alea
(706 posts)Trump was glad she did it with Franken. Now he's attacking her. Really he's the crazy one, not her. I just hope her only thoughts were not just to use the Franken resignation demand thinking it would get rid of trump. I like to think it was more about the women than ammo against trump.
Quoted you..
"But then again, they may not need to do too much because they're mostly in control of collecting and counting votes across this country. Throw in gerrymandering, voter cross-checking, expanding voter-ID, voter-purging"
I just got back from voting for Doug Jones. Slid my ballot in the machine and it said "thank you". Why can't it give me and damn receipt showing it counted my vote and for whom? I don't trust those machines! At least I tried. Hoping he wins.
DesertRat
(27,995 posts)VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)
BeyondGeography
(39,369 posts)When we fall into that trap, we do two things: make each other angry and lose people. I thought Franken’s situation was untenable, but there’s a strong argument that Dems should have hung in there and demanded more proof. Part of me is relieved I’m not reading about his supposed indiscretions anymore, part of me can’t believe such a strong Democratic political talent and a sitting Senator at that was so easily undone. It’s complicated, like most things. Calling “sexism” on Gillibrand’s critics doesn’t strike me as particularly illuminating at all.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)BeyondGeography
(39,369 posts)VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)
ananda
(28,858 posts)Including Al Franken!!!!!!!!!!
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)Gillebrand, which they will do when she stops helping them with their agenda, what will you do.
When breitbart pays off three women to say that Bernie molested them at a campaign rally, and that he bragged about it to Elizabeth Warren and Kirsten Gillebrand, will you just let someone with presidential aspirations demand their removal without proof?
You want it both ways.
mn9driver
(4,423 posts)she led the charge to throw Franken under the bus, this commentary is all about Clinton and mentions Franken only in passing.
I wonder why? It seems highly unlikely that she would be competing with Clinton for the 2020 nomination. And of course it is now highly unlikely that she will be competing with Franken, either. We will see how the idea that Franken, Conyers, Trump and Moore are all guilty of the same thing plays with Democratic voters in 2018 and 2020.
Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)Franken decided not to hang around for an investigation. Maybe he doesn't believe in his own innocence.
Matt_R
(456 posts)Or possibly Franken wants to protect the identities of the anonymous women and not drag the alleged victims through the mud.
As far as I have seen he apologized for how the women felt at the time and it does not sound like he wants them attacked by the media or some of his more vocal supporters.
Disclaimer
My opinion only.
OnDoutside
(19,953 posts)have been the same. This was a self inflicted shotgun wound to the Democratic Party foot, led by a senator who used political expediency to further their own agenda. You don't have to be male or female to fit that truth. The nonsense article in the OP displays the inability of some to understand not only the damage this particular miscarriage of justice causes to the Democratic Party, but that it also opens up the RWNJs to targetting others on the left. But sure, hey, let nothing get in the way of the hastag. #collateraldamage 
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)None of the Franken accusers have very credible accusations. All it takes is a few seconds of looking into them to see that.
- One accepted the apology. Over and done with. I’m not going to be more outraged than the accuser. Her story also has all kinds of holes in it.
- One claims to have been victimized in front of family members, at a photo-op, with cameras on them.
- 4 are anonymous. Not worth considering to me.
- One of them requires Gumby-esque anatomy to pull off. Franken is shorter than me. There’s no way he reached all the way around someone’s back while standing next to someone a grabbed a boob.
All of this foreshadowed by Roger Stone? Garbage. He was pushed out by his colleagues when they should have been able to see these same problems with the accusations.
110liberal
(21 posts)I will continue to speak out for Franken I am An American and a liberal. The charges against Franken are bs. He was railroaded period.
What about the conduct Tweeten is guilty of does she get a pass for grabbing a guitar player's ass and wrapping a leg around around Robin William's leg. Is that the conduct of a innocent victim? Also how do you defend yourself from anonymous accusers? Some of the postures on the board have a double standard due process for the women but no due process for Franken. Franken was a team player having 32 fellow comrades turn on you would shake any person with Franken sensitivity.
JimBeard
(293 posts)
XRubicon
(2,212 posts)
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)I love Kamala Harris and Elizabeth Warren didn't even run for President so I don't know where greater ambitions comes from. Many on the left wanted her to run but she choose not to.
TomCADem
(17,387 posts)Chuck Schumer and Bernie Sanders also called for Franken to resign, but most of the vitriol was directed toward Democratic women senators.
stonecutter357
(12,695 posts)
JimBeard
(293 posts)ms liberty
(8,572 posts)Yea, it stopped being my go to mag for real journalism and opinion in...oh wait, it never was.
JimBeard
(293 posts)NanceGreggs
(27,813 posts)... for advancing the position that Franken should resign based on allegations, rather than being based on actual wrong-doing.
There is nothing "sexist" about disagreeing with her position. The push-back from those who support Franken is no different than the push-back that would have existed had a man spearheaded the call for him to resign.
Goody Gillibrand's position that accusations of sexual misconduct are sufficient reason to remove a man from office are abhorent to those who believe in due process, and the right of the accused to defend himself against accusations that have no basis in fact.
Advancing the idea that Gillibrand is being called-out because she's a woman is akin to saying that all blacks, all Muslims, all homeless vets, all people left without affordable healthcare who SPEAK OUT against those inequities are doing so because they ARE blacks, Muslims, and homeless vets, and not because they have legitimate grievances.
The Goody Gillibrand advocates can rant all they want about how she is being targeted by the anti-woman brigade. The truth is that NOT ALL WOMEN see everything in terms of women-v-men, and are more than capable of determining legitimate battles to be fought versus the bullshit stance that ANY disagreement with a female's political position equates to being anti-woman.
Women have fought too long and hard to be recognized as being equal to men to become advocates of women who play the gender card every time they say and do things that are unpopular.
Saying "you should agree with me because I'm a woman" is no different than saying "you should agree with me because I'm a man".
OnDoutside
(19,953 posts)VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)And that was posted and left to stand.
You have used "Goody" to describe Gillibrand. That's unfortunate, because it undercuts your argument that critique of her isn't gender-based when you use gender-specific words that are meant to be insults. A better word would have been "Puritan" since it can be applied in a gender-neutral fashion to all people.
Franken chose to halt the Senate inquiry, thus, he has received his due process in that forum. As for other forums, he can absolutely sue all 8 women and all news outlets. L. Lin Wood would be a good choice for many obvious reasons.
Denzil_DC
(7,233 posts)Last edited Thu Dec 14, 2017, 10:43 AM - Edit history (1)
Shark jumped.
ETA: Don't take this as an invite for a day-long back and forth, by the way - I have better things to do with my time - but some things are just too absurd to go unremarked upon.
I'll just settle back and watch you mansplaining feminism and sexism to Nance Greggs.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Yes. "Goody" is gender specific. That you don't catch the historical meaning of the word, and the context in which Nance used it means you missed the "Colonial" unit in American History, AND that apparently you have not read one of the finest works of the American stage.
Denzil_DC
(7,233 posts)It's a great look.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Denzil_DC
(7,233 posts)It's a fine look for a self-proclaimed "feminist". And one who's apparently a mindreader, too.
Now, what part of my not having all day to waste on you is so hard to understand?
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)history and literature and therefore chose her words carefully, as she always does. I don't think for a second that Nance does not know what "Goody" means in that context, I think it's precisely why she used it.
Using a gender-based word as an insult, however, in a discussion of sexual harassment detracts from whatever point she was trying to make. Accusing someone of Puritanism is tricky business.
Denzil_DC
(7,233 posts)You've certainly conducted a sustained and at times manic vendetta against a sitting Democratic senator, who was convicted in your mind from the very start. But in the current climate on this board, somebody might decide such a comment was hideworthy, so I won't.
It's got little to do with puritanism, but a lot to do with justice.
You want to talk about "mistakes", in between the mansplaining?
Repeatedly in this thread, you've claimed that Franken has resigned.
He hasn't yet. He will do so in his own good time. He's still a sitting senator at time of writing.
Repeatedly in this thread you've claimed that Franken faces "8 charges".
There are no charges, never have been. If there had been, he'd have received fairer treatment.
If the Senate Ethics Committee were to find that there were any truth in allegations such as those that have been leveled at Franken, they would have the option to pass on the results of their investigations to law enforcement. At that point, law enforcement would decide whether to press charges. Then, and only then, would there be charges.
So you've repeatedly smeared a sitting Democratic senator. If I was charitably inclined, I could describe your repeated statements above as "mistakes".
But in my book, the "8 charges" claim classes as a "right-wing talking point" aimed at a sitting Democratic senator. I've no idea why that sort of thing is allowed to stand under DU's TOS, but here we are.
Now, are you going to quit clogging up my "My Posts" tab, or am I going to have to put you on ignore for the duration?
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)to a male. My understanding is that would violate the rules here against homophobia, in much the same way I saw a fellow poster admonished for using the term "Miss" in connection with Senator Graham.
Again, not the greatest defense of Senator Franken.
Denzil_DC
(7,233 posts)which handily ignores the more substantive points in Nance Gregg's reply to you.
Just as you've conveniently chosen to ignore the other points I made in that reply which point out your consistent conduct in conducting a prolonged vendetta against a sitting Democratic senator. People can draw their own conclusions from that. I have.
In that imaginary universe, I can use any term I choose. If you want to consider it gendered, that's your problem. If you're behaving like a character in a play, then the gender of the character on whose behalf you've chosen to take umbrage is irrelevant. The behavior is the key point.
Now you ARE going on ignore, because I've asked you politely three times, and you evidently can't take a hint.
JimBeard
(293 posts)kcr
(15,315 posts)Goodman. So, it's gender specific only in the way that "Mrs." is. You would have an argument if Puritans were only associated with women. But, of course, that isn't true.
David__77
(23,370 posts)...
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)kcr
(15,315 posts)Puritans are both genders. In other words, VermontKevin. Equality works both ways. Women are allowed to be called on their mistakes AND insulted! It's true. We aren't precious vessels of purity to be protected from all bad things, and it isn't immediately and automatically sexist to disagree with one or insult one. We are indeed human in the same way that men are.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)And it's a poor defense of Franken.
Who did the touching? And yet we use a colonial term that implies there's something wrong with Gilliband for objecting to the touching.
kcr
(15,315 posts)And you really don't do the other arguments any favors by that implication.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)no one on this board would object?
kcr
(15,315 posts)And assume maybe it was some kink of his.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)I don't mean to bring history and facts into this. But a very famous defense of Thomas was this depressing Op-Ed:
http://www.nytimes.com/1991/10/20/opinion/op-ed-race-gender-and-liberal-fallacies.html?pagewanted=all
kcr
(15,315 posts)in the context of whether or not calling someone Goody/Goodman was sexist. They might catch that context and think he was accusing her of being a prude. That's usually the modern implication of puritan. But most would assume he was insulting her because he's Clarence Thomas. But if we're going to bring history into this, the Salem witch hunts weren't perpetrated by women. The Puritans weren't women. And associations of Puritanism and witchhunts aren't gender specific.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Note the key word there: unwanted.
We aren't talking about consensual sex, or judging others for their kinks.
And I would beg to differ on the word "witchhunt."
kcr
(15,315 posts)By your twisted implications of gender specificity. Nice job with the #AgreeWithAllWomen movement. Except I'm not sure where I'd fall in this movement seeing as I'm a woman. You guys have some bugs to work out, there.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)kcr
(15,315 posts)It must be opposites day.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)
Successful men do harass. They act in ways that are abusive and sometimes illegal. Too many of us are under the impression that the people who do this are losers, and that’s not the case. Liberal men, high-achieving men, educated men, men who claim to support women, can be harassers. Maybe that will help change people’s minds about what’s happening in their own community, their own workplace, and their own campus. It may not be Harvey Weinstein doing these things, but it may be someone like Harvey Weinstein, who is prominent and progressive, who is abusing women.
There’s a myth that sexual harassment is something that happens just with Republicans instead of Democrats. People weren’t surprised that Roger Ailes harassed because Roger Ailes is conservative. When a conservative harasses or engages in misconduct, the thinking is that they’re being hypocritical. They’re the ones who tell us harassment doesn’t exist, or if it does, it’s not a big problem. When liberals harass, I think there’s a sense of betrayal, because they’re the ones who are saying we believe in women’s equality. There’s a different emotional reaction, but it’s still painful and it’s still difficult for women to come forward. It doesn’t matter who’s doing it.
When we put harassers in a political category, we’re doing that based on a failure to look at the reality of harassment. One of the paradoxes is that very liberal industries like entertainment, like tech, are still producing or reproducing the same types of behavior that have been going on in more traditional settings all along.
I do believe that people can change their behavior, but I think that after 30 years, you don’t get a chance to change and pretend it didn’t happen. Harvey Weinstein’s behavior continued beyond the ’60s and ’70s, so when he says, “I came of age in that era,” it is no excuse.
https://blackamericaweb.com/2017/10/10/sexual-harassment-isnt-just-for-republicans-according-to-anita-hill/
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)A subtle hint perhaps that those who railroaded Franken are engaged in a 'witch hunt'.
https://www.thoughtco.com/goody-title-used-for-women-salem-witch-trials-3528199
"Goody" was a form of address for women, paired with the woman's surname. The title "Goody" is used in some of the court records, for example, in the Salem witch trials of 1692.
"Goody" is an informal and shortened version of "Goodwife." It was used of married women. It was more often used for older women in late 17th century Massachusetts."
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)she objects to sexual harassment is not exactly a great defense of Franken.
lunamagica
(9,967 posts) Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)Mass hysteria caused good people to be attacked...and I think that is what we see now too.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)MikeydaDog
(140 posts)VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)Franken...certainly resemble witch trials...and now Matt Tabai...oh noes.
JimBeard
(293 posts)for the benefit for those who gain.
VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)JimBeard
(293 posts)VermontKevin
(1,473 posts)MikeydaDog
(140 posts)Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)say that XYZ company 'investigates' and only then fire the person, no they don't. At the first hint of scandal, the person being accused gets fired. And anyone who thinks the courts are the solution has never tried to prove a negative and has never been to court.
mcar
(42,302 posts)
