Democrats Will Regret Forcing Al Franken to Resign

[JimBeard]

Last edited Thu Dec 14, 2017, 11:19 AM - Edit history (1)

From the New Republic by Elizabeth Drew

Backlash
https://newrepublic.com/article/146255/backlash

“You know who’s going to get hurt by this?” a member of Congress asked me recently, referring to the about-time uprising of women against predatory men. “Women.” He explained that male members of Congress are now going to be reluctant to hire a woman when they have the option of hiring a man for a job, and that very attractive women would be particularly at a disadvantage in obtaining jobs on Capitol Hill. (Buxom is out.) Self-protection, in other words, might well lead to a new form of discrimination. And this could travel beyond elected politicians, though they’re feeling especially worried now.

A number of commentators have said that while shoving Franken aside was, well, unfortunate, it was excellent politics for the Democrats to arrange to have a “clean slate” when it came to the matter of sexual hijinks.

Well, at what cost? Is almost any sexual infraction subject to, in effect, capital punishment—the loss of a seat in the Congress? Have Senator Gillibrand and some of her allies thought through what “zero tolerance” means?

at least one major newspaper is planning an expose of a large number of randy, self-indulgent members of Congress—perhaps some 30 or 40 of them, it’s said.

[JI7]

1. Franken was not accused by anyone working for him

In fact he was defended by women throughout decades that worked for him.

Too bad they were ignored.

[PatrickforO]

8. Yes, that's kind of ironic to me. "Believe everyone" becomes

"believe everyone only if they are making allegations that prove our point."

Any other allegations, allegations that don't meet our standard, may conveniently be ignored.

[mythology]

16. Which is also exactly what Franken supporters believe

They believe the allegations against Moore and Trump and Franks and Lauer etc. But Franken in spite of 8 different women, verified by the media and by at the time comments, is utterly innocent.

[Drahthaardogs]

22. Only because they were caught lying

Had video evidence that does not support their claims, remained anonymous, colluded with Sean Hannity, and equated a hug around the waist in a photo as sexual assault.

I'm shocked the photographer has not been charged as an accessory for saying "Get closer so I can get you in".

Why you keep perpetuating half truths here is really confusing.

[Tipperary]

45. This.

+1000

[standingtall]

23. Really not a good argument to insist that if someone believes allegations of some

then they must believe all allegations of everyone. Every case is different with it's own unique set of facts and circumstances which are to be properly examined.

[LisaL]

37. Well, exactly. If we are going to have to believe every and all accusations,

we might as well get rid of courts and just declare everyone who is accused guilty.

[LisaL]

39. Who is saying believe everyone?

[BannonsLiver]

18. Precisely

Birther and Hannity lackey Tweeden was given more credibility by the media than those women who stood by Al. Hell, there are a few gullible, strident types around here who believed Tweeden had more credibility than Franken so I guess we shouldn't be surprised.

[LisaL]

40. Exactly. A lot of women who worked with him or for him once he became a Senator came

to his defense. Why aren't we supposed to believe those women?

[uponit7771]

50. +1

[democratisphere]

2. New Leadership is the solution to this problem.

Vote to replace.

[SharonClark]

3. "a member of Congress" says it's going to hurt women

Because if male members of Congress can't hit on or grope women, then they won't hire women?
Bullshit.

[PatrickforO]

9. I think this may have been satire...the original post, that is.

It is the weakest argument that can possibly be advanced.

I don't object to a member of Congress being asked to resign over sexual harassment. The only thing I object to is that Franken didn't get due process, and in a larger sense a zero tolerance policy opens the gates for anyone who wants to allege anything they want to 'come forward' and then watch in leisure as the axe falls on the one they've accused without having to go through those inconvenient rigors of actually proving their allegation.

I've been alive a long time, and have found that every single grouping of people, whether men, women, LGBTQ, different races or ethnicities, or religions, has a continuum of people: on the one end, there are angelic beings who walk on water they are so good, and on the other end, psychotic dirtbags who would betray anyone for even a small advantage. Then, everyone else falls in between those two ends. Zero tolerance policies, without the rigors of due process, open the gates to the dirtbags.

That's all I'm saying. I suspect that's all most people who are objecting to the way Franken was railroaded are saying. It's not Franken per se, but the lack of due process.

[Lurks Often]

13. That is not what it means

Just look at Franken, allegations put him in a position where the Democrats in the Senate put him in the position of "retiring" for the good of the party. No investigation and no due process , just their word against his.

Given the above circumstances how many male politicians, who have done nothing at all, will risk their seat when they could face charges of sexual harassment or sexual assault with no investigation or no due process?

More plainly, it is now guilty until proven innocent when it comes to charges of sexual harassment or sexual assault.

[PatrickforO]

4. That's a weak argument, you know.

In fact, this has to be satire.

Guaranteed to be offensive to feminists of both sexes.

What still bothers me about Franken being forced out is he didn't have due process. That's all. Zero tolerance takes away due process, and that is bad for everyone. Adopt a zero tolerance policy and you'll end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater - in plain language, getting rid of people who do not deserve to be gotten rid of because they are innocent of whatever allegations are being made against them.

You can't just open the floodgates and say 'believe everyone always' who makes some allegation. Not without subjecting that allegation to the rigors of being proven. Zero tolerance thus lays the groundwork for witch hunts, where good people are destroyed by mere innuendo.

Also gives the right wing, which really doesn't have any morality, license to sling mud without even being held accountable.

It is zero tolerance without due process that is the bad idea, not asking a Senator to resign.

Be clear on that point.

[Egnever]

49. It is exactly that lack of due process that will lead be people to be very cautious in their hiring

They have made it untenable to hire women. If all it takes is an accusation to end a career you would be foolish if you did not do something to mitigate the chances of that happening.

Forcing him out without a hearing was very foolish.

[EffieBlack]

5. I think they'll regret it, but not necessarily for that reason.

[LexVegas]

6. Nah.

[JimBeard]

10. Thank you for your feed back.

[LexVegas]

14. No problem.

[LanternWaste]

7. Oddly enough, I've hired women three to four times more than men

Oddly enough, I've hired women three to four times more than men for my department over the years and have never had one complaint of any sort lodged against me. I do not feel any more threatened by that potential in the here and now, nor have I been reluctant to hire any woman who meets the qualifications.

On the other hand, if I had skeletons of that sort in my closet, then I suppose I would be concerned, and attempt to subtly criticize or even subvert this new voice many women have used recently to attempt a more level playing field in all aspects of business.

Backlash? No... more accurately, backwash.

[JimBeard]

11. Good for you

Every situation is just like yours.

[haele]

25. The problem is not the person hiring, it's the political perception.

I'm a woman who has experienced both working in a male dominated field and working for the government in a political environment on occasion.
Working in governance politics - even staff positions - carries the same perception bias that working in any customer service position does - the assumptions just from one's appearance have just as much weight to one's job as does one's qualifications. Dress, grooming, trustworthy "symmetrical" features and sufficient height mean a lot to the average person, who tends to have a particular "look" in mind when imagining someone who's a good executive, or a good staffer.
Buxom or Sexy is not a good look for anyone who intends to be taken seriously. I've seen qualified women - and men - lose to less qualified applicants because they came in to interviews looking too sexy or too casual.
...Unless they were working for BAH as Flag staff support - Booz went out of their way to hire "sexy" to support Flag officers - and it was understood that even though the employees were qualified, they were primarily there to look like high powered personal executive secretaries in borderline inappropriate dress (the "from the office to the cocktail hour" look).

So yes, I can see where appearances might affect the way politicians would start staffing their support, especially if s/he wanted to seem more professional - "get the job done" - as opposed to high-powered - "this boss always gets what s/he wants".

Haele

[brush]

28. Oddly, Franken hired many women too and none of them made a complaint about him.

Last edited Thu Dec 14, 2017, 03:56 PM - Edit history (2)

And oddly, women who didn't work for him made sketchy complaints about him.

Even more oddly, they were believe without question by the women who forced Franken out.

Odd, right?

[ebbie15644]

31. very odd and very maddening

[LisaL]

41. Not only didn't make complaints, they came to his defense.

So if we are to believe everyone, why aren't we believing women who worked for Franken?

[brush]

47. Exactly. Someone got ahead of her skis and got us all played by the repug hit job.

[Crunchy Frog]

43. Presumably you don't have people with a political incentive

Presumably you don't have people with a political incentive to get rid of you by making false allegations against you.

Lucky you.

[ProfessorGAC]

58. For Someone Who Regularly Lectures Others. . .

. . .about not extrapolating greatly from personal experience, you sure feel free to do so when it suits your narrative.

[global1]

15. So If The Dems Have A Zero Tolerance Policy...

they should en masse call for Trump 's resignation. That would send a message to the American People & the Repugs would have to confront this.

The Dems had no problem piling on Franken and fell in the trap of railroading Franken set by the Repugs.

Now they need to follow thru on their moral high ground and direct their efforts to getting Trump to resign and laying that issue at the feet of the Repugs.

The Dems might even be able to use this issue to slowdown the Repugs progress on this tax scam.

[Orsino]

17. That's pretty dumb.

Male reluctance to hire women has never needed extra excuses, and won't be a Franken backlash. Stupid overreaction isn't the fault of Dems who held a man accountable.

[brush]

29. You think it won't happen? Of course it will. Not by all men but some will look for reasons...

not to hire women, just as some look for reasons not to hire POCs.

Happens all the time.

[Blue_true]

44. And the companies will face discrimination suits.

They will be forced to prove that their not hiring women had a sound and rational basis, they won't be able to prove that and will most likely lose the lawsuit. A few well publicized cases of lost lawsuits will stop the bullshit.

No woman should be forced to accept sexual impropriety under any circumstances.

[brush]

46. Of course women shouldn't face that. But proving someone wasn't hired because of gender is a whole..

other thing.

Not easy to prove that?

[Blue_true]

48. Good discrimination lawyers can prove it.

Companies, even when they try not to generate metrics. Good law firms know how to find trends in those metrics.

[JimBeard]

55. Al did have a chance to stop that bullshit

[Orsino]

56. I said it won't be the fault of Dems who urged Franken out of office...

...and working out precisely which hires are declined because of it would be very tricky.

[Binkie The Clown]

19. That should please Republicans. After all they want their women to stay home,

cooking, cleaning, and making babies. Making men afraid to hire women is a good start to shutting them out of the workforce completely.

[oberliner]

20. Wow - life is so hard for attractive (buxom?) women

This is ridiculous.

[FreeStateDemocrat]

21. I do regret him being replace by an amateur with no experience in national or inter-national affairs

We just got rid of one of our brightest hardest working, most EFFECTIVE senators to be replaced by an unknown lightweight. The pukes and Fox spews are loving it but after all he was accused of grabbing someone's waist while he responded to being approached for a photo op. BULL SHIT, BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT!!! FUCKING CHARACTER ASSASSINATION!!! I hope I have the opportunity to vote against the jr. senator from NY in the Va. primary as my response to the BULL SHIT that was created by senator's ambition for national office.

[JimBeard]

24. You got spunk!! Great Post. I agree 101% ...................................

I love your enthusiasm. Lets hope the alert brigade doesn't get wind of your post. 2 have already been spotted on this thread.

[nycbos]

26. Al had zero experience in international affairs when he ran.

[nycbos]

27. Only 22 percent of people in Minn want him to stay.

The ONLY place where Dems "are going to regret it" is DU.



http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/361490-poll-22-percent-of-minnesotans-say-franken-should-remain-in-office

[brush]

30. Well of course, after all the bad mouthing and publicity what else do you expect?

[lostnfound]

33. Misleading statistic anyway... 80% of Dems say he should either stay or wait for investigation.

Dems are the ones that voted for him anyway, I assume.
And don’t they have any independents In Minnesota? It’s like they weren’t even counted.

[lostnfound]

32. 80% of Democrats think he should stay or wait for ethics investigation, theyre the ones that count

“a larger percentage of the polled Democrats think Franken should stay, with 34 percent saying he should remain in office and 14 percent saying he should resign. Forty-six percent of Democrats think he should wait for the results of an ethics investigation.”

[lostnfound]

34. Plus 36% want to wait for an investigation, dont they count?.

they seem like the most rational ones, the ones not guided by an agenda.

[JimBeard]

35. Lets look at the poll you furnished with your link.

I am only citing the Democrat-ic portion.......

A larger percentage of the polled Democrats think Franken should stay, with 34 percent saying he should remain in office and 14 percent saying he should resign. Forty-six percent of Democrats think he should wait for the results of an ethics investigation.

Just 32 percent of respondents say Franken can be an "effective" senator if he remains in office. Another 37 percent say he would be an "ineffective" senator and 32 percent aren't sure.

So we only have only have 32 % who say he can not be effective
as opposed to 32+32 = 64% positive

[NurseJackie]

36. It's tragic, and you are correct.

[treestar]

38. lol they should give less attractive women a chance

when I was there visiting several different Representatives, the aides were all good-looking young women. Only one good-looking young man.

[ananda]

42. Agree.

That was one of the saddest days of this century for me ..
Dems turning against one of their own for their own
personal power agenda.

Just .. so .. wrong!

[Egnever]

52. Ouch

got a link for that?

[JimBeard]

53. It is in the comments section in Todays NYT

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/14/opinion/democratic-party-sexual-misconduct.html?_r=0

By a poster named Frank

[spanone]

57. ...while Farenthold gets to hold his seat till next November...

fuck that shit

[alarimer]

59. If it means getting rid of real sexual predators, like Farenthold, then it's a win.

I am not sure if Farenthold and the others have decided to quit because of the pressure put on them by Franken's resignation, or by Moore's loss. It could be either.

But that's the silver lining I see. Losing Franken to what are likely mostly nonsense charges means we also get rid of real pigs. I'm okay with that trade-off, politically, I mean.

I am not convinced that there will not be a backlash eventually, though. We could well lose that seat in Minnesota, if Smith turns out to be an incompetent campaigner or if the GOP appoints someone sufficiently middle-of-the-road like Pawlenty. That's a the scary unknown here.

As for men being afraid to hire women because they fear nonsense charges, well, they have never had trouble avoiding hiring women for other reasons, so that provides just another excuse for discrimination.

[MrsCoffee]

60. And their little dog toto too!

What a stupid article. Let them be reluctant. And let them get sued for discrimination if they are gonna be asshats.