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Sat Dec 16, 2017, 11:33 AM

 

Many Indictments Have Been Issued But Not Made Public Yet

Dear Fellow DU'ers,

I wish everyone understood the difference between an indictment and a sealed indictment.

I wish everyone understood that it is likely (probable) that Mueller has already obtained dozens of sealed indictments, possibly including one against Donald Trump.

Here is the information you need to know:

1. An indictment is a formal accusation of a felony, issued by a grand jury based upon a proposed charge, witnesses' testimony and other evidence presented by the public prosecutor. In order to issue an indictment, the grand jury doesn't make a determination of guilt, but only the probability that a crime was committed, that the accused person did it and that he/she should be tried.

2. A sealed indictment is an indictment that has not yet been made public by the prosecutor. This can be done for a number of reasons. It may be unsealed, for example, once the named person is arrested or about to be arrested. (This is what happened with Manafort and Gates.)

The following is an example of a federal rule dealing with sealed indictments:

"The judge to whom an indictment is returned may direct that the indictment be kept secret until the defendant is in custody or has been released pending trial. The clerk must then seal the indictment, and no person may disclose the indictment’s existence except as necessary to issue or execute a warrant or summons."

Mueller's team does NOT leak, and that is why very few people know how many SEALED indictments have Already Been Issued.

I hope this clears up some confusion.

35 replies, 4882 views

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Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 35 replies Author Time Post
Reply Many Indictments Have Been Issued But Not Made Public Yet (Original post)
Vidal Dec 2017 OP
hlthe2b Dec 2017 #1
Mrs. Overall Dec 2017 #2
AJT Dec 2017 #3
DUgosh Dec 2017 #4
Brainstormy Dec 2017 #6
DUgosh Dec 2017 #8
RandomAccess Dec 2017 #17
former9thward Dec 2017 #5
underpants Dec 2017 #9
Cicada Dec 2017 #14
former9thward Dec 2017 #34
B2G Dec 2017 #7
onenote Dec 2017 #10
Vidal Dec 2017 #19
onenote Dec 2017 #23
pnwmom Dec 2017 #25
MineralMan Dec 2017 #35
Vinnie From Indy Dec 2017 #11
Vidal Dec 2017 #20
SWBTATTReg Dec 2017 #28
fescuerescue Dec 2017 #22
L. Coyote Dec 2017 #12
eallen Dec 2017 #13
B2G Dec 2017 #15
RandomAccess Dec 2017 #16
Kaleva Dec 2017 #18
Vidal Dec 2017 #21
Hoyt Dec 2017 #26
shanny Dec 2017 #27
MFM008 Dec 2017 #24
PJMcK Dec 2017 #29
HopeAgain Dec 2017 #30
democrank Dec 2017 #31
beastie boy Dec 2017 #32
Hoyt Dec 2017 #33

Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 11:38 AM

1. I've always been surprised at how little Grand Juries leak... It is actually reassuring.

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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 11:39 AM

2. Good info.

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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 11:44 AM

3. If Mueller is fired, and therefore the investigation stopped,before the incitements are served

is that the end of them?

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Response to AJT (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 11:48 AM

4. No

Think of them of fired insurance

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Response to DUgosh (Reply #4)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 11:49 AM

6. please rephrase or explain

I'd like to understand what you mean.

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Response to Brainstormy (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 11:59 AM

8. If there are sealed indictments

They won’t go away if Mueller is fired, if they exist and I have no proof they do. They can be unsealed and even opened “ in the event “ of Muellars firing.

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Response to Brainstormy (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 01:08 PM

17. So he means that if Mueller is fired

 

there are still things (in this case, indictments) that will unfold despite that.

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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 11:49 AM

5. And your basis for "many indictments have been issued"?

Is what? Because you want it to be so?

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Response to underpants (Reply #9)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 12:37 PM

14. There is zero evidence these sealed indictments relate to Mueller

Sealed indictments are a normal thing, this court had sealed indictments long before Mueller. They will have sealed indictments after Mueller leaves.

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Response to underpants (Reply #9)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 03:13 PM

34. That article is 6 weeks old.

Those indictments can be from anybody who operates in the district's jurisdiction, not just Mueller. They can be drug dealers not located yet. I see no reason Mueller would wait. No one in this investigation is a fugitive.

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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 11:50 AM

7. How do we know it's probable he has

 

'dozens of sealed indictments'?

Do you have any links or is this wishful thinking? I can believe 'several', but 'dozens' is a lot.

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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 12:12 PM

10. If "very few people know how many" sealed indictments have been issued

So how is it that you know that there probably are "dozens" of sealed indictments?

Answer: you don't.

Another answer: there almost certainly are not "dozens" of sealed indictments.

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Response to onenote (Reply #10)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 01:34 PM

19. You don't know

 

what I know.

How could you possibly know that?

Here's an idea: let's just wait and see.

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Response to Vidal (Reply #19)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 01:56 PM

23. Right. You know more than the Washington Post, the New York Times, CNN

and pretty much everyone except for the whack-jobs like Mensch and Taylor who have been claiming that there are boatloads of sealed indictments for months and months and months, while the facts are that the first sealed indictment of anyone connected with the Trump administration was handed down by the grand jury on October 27, 2017 and was sealed for all of three days. The information against Papadapolous was filed on October 3, and the case was unsealed on October 30. And the information against Flynn was never sealed at all. Yet we're supposed to believe that there are dozens of other indictments, dating back months and months and months, that Mueller is sitting on.

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Response to onenote (Reply #23)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 02:15 PM

25. We don't know that was the first sealed indictment. We know it was the first to be unsealed.


Now don't accuse me of making a larger claim that I aim. But there is a difference between the first indictment to be unsealed and made public, and the first to be issued, and then sealed. For all we know there's an older one (s) out there.

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Response to Vidal (Reply #19)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 03:17 PM

35. That's true. We don't know anything about you.

So, why not fill us in on how you have access to this information and why? That'd be great. Otherwise, there's no reason I can think of to assume your statement is credible.

I'll wait here.

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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 12:18 PM

11. Have you noticed a trend in these indictment threads?

They are almost always posted by low count Du'ers.

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Response to Vinnie From Indy (Reply #11)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 01:35 PM

20. Wow, way to judge

 

So now your most trusted people are those who post most often in Democratic Underground?
That is interesting.

I'm a retired attorney and I have sources, so please consider that I know some things you don't know.

Just keep an open mind as we wait to see what happens next.

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Response to Vidal (Reply #20)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 02:31 PM

28. Really, keep an open mind here, all are equal on this website...

Just because someone has posted 100,000 times vs. one who's posted 100 times, doesn't mean anything should be attached special to the one who's posted 100,000 times over the one who's posted 100 times...if anything, quality over quantity, eh? In any event, all are equal here...

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Response to Vinnie From Indy (Reply #11)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 01:42 PM

22. The trend i've noticed

Is that there is extreme paranoia that someone we might have to interact with someone with a slightly different opinion, if they haven't spent the last 5 years, exchanging tens of thousands of notes with other people with an identical opinion who has also spent the last 5 years exchanging tens of thousands of notes.

Perhaps the solution is to not allow anyone to post, until they have accumulated 10,000 posts.

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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 12:20 PM

12. Sing along: It's beginning to loook alot like treason, everywhere you go ....

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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 12:34 PM

13. Anticipating indictments we don't yet know is as fantastical as Trumpistas dismissing it all

Poor Mueller. I expect everyone will be disappointed with him.

Even if Mueller's investigation brings down Trump -- which I think is quite unlikely, because the Russians were too smart to rely on him -- that won't change the political landscape as much as many here think. The Teapartiers who turned into Trumpistas were there before Trump became their man. Far from slinking away if their man is found criminal, they will be even more enraged.

We face a political problem. It requires a political solution. Not just a judicial one.

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Response to eallen (Reply #13)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 12:46 PM

15. "Poor Mueller. I expect everyone will be disappointed with him."

 

I expect you are spot on. He has reached a sort of super-god status around here.

If he can't deliver to DU's satisfaction, the fall is going to be spectacular.

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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 01:07 PM

16. I disagree with one point

 

I'm firmly convinced Mueller's team DOES leak -- strategically. Rumors aside (or maybe including them, who knows?), we know a lot of things about what Mueller is doing that has never been officially sourced.

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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 01:23 PM

18. Many of are aware that folks on twitter are blowing smoke out their ass

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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 01:40 PM

21. Proof of Sealed Indictments

 

The Gates and Manafort cases also began as sealed indictments before they were unsealed by a judge when Gates and Manafort surrendered to the FBI on October 30.

Nobody knew about them until they were made public.

Therefore it is highly likely that Mueller's team has other sealed indictments that will be made public when it suits Mueller's purposes in his overall strategy.

This is a chess game and Mueller is five moves ahead of everyone else.

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Response to Vidal (Reply #21)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 02:23 PM

26. Not sure that makes it highly likely, maybe plausible.

 

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Response to Vidal (Reply #21)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 02:28 PM

27. Sealed over the weekend. Big whoop.

 

Not, as was pointed out above, many indictments sealed for months and months and months.

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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 02:12 PM

24. There are some naysayers

Who would not believe what
they are seeing if Mueller
Dragged the maggot out of the white house
In a straitjacket .
Nor would they approve.....

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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 02:33 PM

29. Here's a question, Vidal

How would sealed indictments protect the investigation in the event Mr. Mueller is fired? Who would lead any prosecutions that would be tried based on those indictments?

Relatedly, could sealed indictments against Trump nullify any pardons that he tries to grant? If he's a participant or beneficiary of a crime others committed, can he still pardon them?

Your post was articulate and clearly expressed. Thanks and keep posting.

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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 02:35 PM

30. Just speculation

You say "I wish everyone understood that it is likely (probable) that Mueller has already obtained dozens of sealed indictments, possibly including one against Donald Trump."

i don't know that there is any basis to that statement. Yes there is a possibility, but I have seen nothing from a reliable news source (i.e., not Mensch or Taylor) that allows us to conclude anything at this point. There are sealed indictments pending in all the Federal District Courts all the time. Could be cases involving terrorists, mobsters, white collar, gang-related and other RICO related matters in which there are potential codefendants that they don't want to tip off. A sealed indictment in District Court in D.C. doesn't have to be related to the Mueller investigation.

But what is "likely" or "probable" is pure speculation as far as Mueller's investigation at this point. Don't forget that there is an OLC opinion that the President can't be indicted. https://fas.org/irp/agency/doj/olc/092473.pdf . That will carry some weight, although not necessarily conclusive.

I hope the whole bunch goes to jail, but I don't see any advantage to speculation.

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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 02:36 PM

31. Patience may be a virtue, but it's acquirement during times like these is most difficult.

I want Trump and his enablers to go down in flames, every single one of them....and I want it to happen yesterday.

My guess is that Mueller has a well-reasoned path forward and is most likely several steps ahead of everyone else, especially Trump. I believe Mueller has anticipated any of the Trump team's future moves and has a legal response ready. He's dotting i's, crossing t's and passing out rope....and plenty of it.

There's a lot we can do while we're waiting. Pressure Republicans, write letters to editors, spread the truth on social media, make phone calls, talk with people, and find out where the nearest protest is if Trump fires Mueller. We have to use every legal, nonviolent method we can think of to demand action against this wicked, dangerous thug in the White House and all the gutless people enabling him.



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Response to Vidal (Original post)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 02:42 PM

32. It is a fact that a sealed indictment is an indictment that has not yet been made public.

It is a fact that Mueller's team does not leak.

Therefore, it is safe to conclude that we know nothing about Mueller's indictments. Nothing. At this point, it is just as possible that he obtained dozens of them as it is that he has none. It is as possible he obtained indictments against Trump as it is that he indicted the Pope. Anything is possible. No evidence exists to suggest any of it is imminent.

Let's not get prematurely excited and stay tuned to forthcoming factual information.

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Response to beastie boy (Reply #32)

Sat Dec 16, 2017, 02:48 PM

33. Exactly. I learned by lesson with Fitzmas. Believed every post about coming indictments and perp

 

walk of Rove, Chenney, bush, etc. In the end, nothing, absolutely nothing.

Remember this --

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