Fears of Western split over Ukraine as Germany rebuffs American threat to send weapons

[Manifest Destiny]

Source: The Telegraph UK

European ministers warn that allowing US arms to be used against separatist rebels would "pour oil onto the flames" in the Ukraine conflict

Fears of a split in Western strategy towards Ukraine grew on Friday night after Germany directly rebuffed America over its threats to send weapons to Kiev.
As Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, arrived in Moscow for 11th hour peace talks with Vladimir Putin, her ministers said that allowing US arms to be used against separatist rebels would "pour oil onto the flames".
The warning from Ursula von der Leyen, the German defence minister, followed Washington's announcement on Thursday that it might give Ukrainian government forces sophisticated defensive weapons to halt the rebels' recent rapid advance.

Elements within the Pentagon now believe that the only way to force the rebels to the negotiating table is to even the military balance.

But Mrs von der Leyen claimed that would simply give Mr Putin an excuse to arm the rebels more heavily, or even send in the Russian army openly. "In Ukraine there are already far too many weapons," she said. "The resupply (of weapons) to the separatists is potentially unlimited.

Read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11397217/Fears-of-Western-split-over-Ukraine-as-Germany-rebuffs-American-threat-to-send-weapons.html

[HERVEPA]

1. More crap from resident Putin lover.

[Cayenne]

2. What is your hang up?

It is relevant news from a western source.

[HERVEPA]

4. First, the poster is mocking DU by using a user name analagous to the one he can't post

from due to his too many hides.

Second, he is pushing Russian propaganda consistently. When I see him posting, I point this out.

[Comrade Grumpy]

7. Are Merkel's words Russian propaganda? Is the Telegraph (UK) a Russian media outlet?

Shooting the messenger doesn't change the message: Merkel thinks arming Kiev is a bad idea.

[OKNancy]

8. you may be glad to know...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=inbox&view=1753879

[HERVEPA]

10. Well, link didn't work but I see what happened. Thanks

Should we start a pool as to what his next username will be?

[DeSwiss]

12. No, that would be me.

But thanks for exposing yourself.

- Welcome to IGNORE.

[TooPragmatic]

3. They might be playing good cop bad cop

If both US and supported military action, there would be a full scale war. If both would support not giving any weapons, the Ukrainian government would feel betrayed. Russia might be willing to accept a deal from Europe when the other option is dealing with the US. Europe would salvage their relationship with Russia, Putin wouldn't be completely embarrassed since it would most likely gain Crimea. And Ukraine could choose their way on trade and would agree not to join Nato.

This all relies on Putin wanting to cut a deal without getting a full victory.

[Manifest Destiny]

5. Merkels statements are telling in the other articles.

She has openly stated that she doesn't think they can win a war against Russia. I think Putin doesn't have as much control over the rebels as the West has stated. The rebels are completely distrustful of the Kiev regime. They have been lied to and relentlessly bombed for months. They are fully aware it is all being covered up in the US and EU media that the Kiev regime has conducted dozens of false flag attacks and atrocities against innocent civilians. Since they can't trust anyone to help them I doubt that they will stop until the Kiev regime is broken and destroyed.

Judging from the financial news regarding Ukraine, that day probably isn't far off anyway. Putin holds the cards and the massive media coverup is not working. People are waking up. Calling 'wolf' thirty times on fake Russian invasions will do that.

If the Russian army ever did invade it would be over quite quickly. Obviously Putin doesn't want Ukraine or he would have easily taken it by now.

The fact the US and EU media have turned Putin into a 'psychotic, plutonium poisoning, child molesting, pedophiliac, autistic leader with advanced aspergers syndrome probably hasn't helped their cause when it comes to credibility. It's amazing that he can do all those things while holding the top position in the worlds largest country!

[TooPragmatic]

6. accepting one sides propaganda and not the other

Last edited Sat Feb 7, 2015, 06:17 PM - Edit history (1)

"She has openly stated that she doesn't think they can win a war against Russia." who are "they"?

I agree that the rebels have a mind of their own and Putin doesn't just tell them what to do. But the rebels do rely on Russian military support or the rebels have become experts in creating weapons that are just like modern Russian weapons. And we are talking about weapons that the Ukrainian military never had.

Civilian casualties are quite normal in war fought in cities. But what false flag operations are you talking about. Are you denying that the rebels haven't caused any civilian casualties? No one aims to kill civilians, but mistakes happen and people suffer. I was glad that they had a ceasefire to evacuate civilians away from the front.

Western media, unlike most of the Russian media isn't uniform and there are multiple opinions coming through. There are those who choose to take their information from the government. But there are also those who get their info by being in the front lines and interviewing those who are living there. And if you think governments in the west tell independent media what they can and can't write will need to be backed by evidence.

Ukraine is suffering financially from this war and does rely on emergency loans and aid. But the US and EU can keep Ukraine afloat for quite a while if they choose to. So don't be so cocky about the conflict being over.

I don't think Putin wants to invade Ukraine. He would be happier with a pro Russian government in Kiev. Simply conquering Ukraine would make Europeans and Nato even more nervous and could be a beginning for a cold war or even a full scale war. No one wants that.

There is a lot of stuff written about Putin. The writings about him being autistic seemed a bit far fetched. The polonium assassination seems more believable, but it's the FSB that would be behind that. I have never heard anyone claim he is a pedophile. And if someone said it, this didn't stick because no one would believe this without evidence.

http://m.smh.com.au/world/ukrainian-rebels-have-sophisticated-russian-weapons-military-expert-nic-jenzenjones-says-20141117-11o8x1.html

[HERVEPA]

9. Buh-Bye

[DeSwiss]

11. K&R

We supplied weapons to Saddam and ended up invading Iraq to kill Saddam.

We supplied weapons to Bin Laden's Al-Qaeda and the Taliban rebels in Afghanistan to fight the Russians. But then we ended up creating the premier terrorist organization in the world and having to end up invading Pakistan to kill Bin Laden.

We supplied weapons indirectly to ISIS through our client states of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc. to try and overthrow Assad in Syria. Only these assholes we've brought together can't fight their way out of a paper bag. They just commit atrocities and make us look even worse for creating them.

So now we've helped in fomenting unrest and used political intrigued (and stupidity) to worm our way into the current crisis with Russia and the Ukraine.

- And one again, our number one solution to every goddamned thing is MORE FUCKING WEAPONS.

[luke102938]

13. Russia has not been capable of a war with the west for decades.

Russia cant win a war with the west, but Russia can still make it costly "in theory" by trying to cause enough damage to be politically nonviable for the West to coninue.