Russia delivers nuclear warning to Denmark

[bananas]

Source: Financial Times

Russia has threatened Denmark with a nuclear strike if it takes part in Nato’s missile shield, in some of the most incendiary comments yet directed at a member of the military alliance.

Russia’s ambassador to Denmark wrote in a newspaper opinion piece that the Nordic country had not fully understood the consequences of signing up to the Nato missile defence programme.

“If it happens, then Danish warships will be targets for Russia’s nuclear weapons. Denmark will be part of the threat to Russia,” Mikhail Vanin wrote in Jyllands-Posten.

The dramatic threat cranks up further Russian pressure on countries in the Baltic region. Russian aircraft have violated the airspace of Estonia, Finland and Sweden and were involved in two near misses last year with passenger aircraft taking off from Copenhagen.

<snip>

Read more: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/646064c8-d07a-11e4-a840-00144feab7de.html

[DRoseDARs]

1. Russia! Wut r u doing? Russia! STAPH!

Russia won't do shit. They'd get slagged and they know it.

[donnasgirl]

21. I sure hope your right

But that is a serious threat and wouldn't take it lightly.

[leveymg]

26. If it comes to that, we'll all be slag.

[Threedifferentones]

76. Last I checked Russia has enough nukes to destroy civilization, even without an American response.

Yea they'd get slagged but I don't understand why you didn't mention the important detail that so would we and everybody else.

[Hekate]

2. Denmark?! Hey, resident Putinistas , rationalize this one

Can you 'splain this latest to us?

[FrodosPet]

11. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

On Mon Mar 23, 2015, 04:02 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Denmark?! Hey, resident Putinistas , rationalize this one
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1046366

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

"resident Putinistas"??? Um, definitely rude, insensitive and over-the-top. Also, divisive and otherwise inappropriate.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Mar 23, 2015, 04:11 AM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Language a little strident, but still within acceptable bounds.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
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Explanation: Meh. I can't get excited about this. As far as potentially offensive terms go, it's relatively mild and inoffensive and I've heard much worse on DU. Not actionable, IMO
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[tblue37]

15. The post didn't mention any names, so I see no reason why anyone who does not

fit into the designated category should be offended, since the post is not directed at those who are *not* "resident putinistas."

[Duckhunter935]

19. I guess one of the "resident Putinistas"

had a sad

[7962]

23. Boy they sure get testy when they're proven wrong again, dont they?

Hooray for a 0-7 vote, which you dont see very often unless it really IS an offensive post

[geek tragedy]

27. it's definitely Karma that the alerter lost their alerting privileges nt

[Downtown Hound]

47. Somebody actually alerted on that?

Putinistas are a sensitive bunch.

[Aerows]

3. I sincerely hope that Denmark

tells Putin to kiss its ass. I would hope that Norway and Sweden get in on the action and also tell Putin to fall down a hole so that they can pave over it.

[Quantess]

60. Sweden is not a NATO member but probably will be soon!

Russia's subtle threats to Sweden in the past year or so have prompted an increased interest in joining NATO.

[The CCC]

4. Russia delivers nuclear warning to Denmark

STUPID. NATO would make mother Russia glow in the dark.

[MrModerate]

6. Only problem being . . .

So would everywhere else. That's the tactical advantage to being a nuclear-armed mad dog, like Putin, versus nuclear-armed sane people.

[Gore1FL]

37. I believe the threat of that happening is what the poster was referring

M.A.D has proven to be an awful, but apparently effective, strategy.

[DeSwiss]

34. ....

[laserhaas]

63. DON'T you DARE try to DEFEND yourself - Or we will Nuke You

Great argument!

NOT....

[NuclearDem]

69. In what universe is threatening a nuclear attack on a small country

with absolutely no provocation self-defense?

[laserhaas]

74. You misconstrue my sarcasm NuclearDem....

The point was/is ----

Russia threatens the party (Denmark) - if you seek to protect yourself - We'll nuke you

and my sarcasm was/is

"Great argument"

NOT.....

[NuclearDem]

81. My sarcasm meter needs some adjusting.

Sorry about that.

[laserhaas]

83. No Problem - We're all in fighting mode these days

And as September draws neigh, with whom will enter the races;
we'll all be spitting blood and taking names.

Meanwhile - Its Unite Blue Twitter Bomb right now...

#YouCruzYouLose

[Turbineguy]

5. That ambassador

must want a different assignment.

[Cha]

7. Putin's a * *.. got a hide once for cussing out poor putin.. so I will leave it at that..

[Hekate]

59. sheeesh

I think they showed up in this thread......

[irisblue]

8. Is Russia, willing to make Denmark prove half life calculations

over of X area/years/glowseenfromMoon?
Srsly?

[freshwest]

9. It's just a statement of fact. The UK, French, USA and China have nuke subs ready to play, too.

This is an obvious statement, nothing special. Not to me. However, those who say that NATO is nothing, take heed.

Or else Putin wouldn't send his man to the media to say this. As a kid who grew having to get in the fetal position at school once a week, and told we'd die anyway, I say: MEH!

Another fine production of the Czar of all Russia, Vladimir Putin (Oil-igarch Imperialist).

[Jack Rabbit]

10. Vladimir Vladimirovich want WAR

So, when will Boehner invite his to address Congress? He's the GOP's kind of man!

[trueblue2007]

12. Russian ambassador threatens Denmark with naval nuclear attack if it joins missile shield

Ambassador Mikhail Vanin’s comments, published in newspaper Jyllands-Posten Saturday, prompted an angry response from Danish Foreign Minister Martin Lidegaard.

“I do not think Danes fully understand the consequences of what happens if Denmark joins the U.S.-led missile defense. If this happens, Danish warships become targets for Russian nuclear missiles,” Vanin was quoted as saying by the daily.

Should Danes join “we risk considering each other as enemies,” he added.

Lidegaard said the comments were “inacceptable” and that Vanin had “crossed the line” by saying that “everyone who joins” the shield “in the future will be a target for Russian ballistic missiles.”

However, Lidegaard added that “it is important that the tone between us doesn’t escalate.”

There were no immediate plans for a meeting between Lidegaard and Vanin.

The Russian embassy couldn’t be reached for a comment. http://www.france24.com/en/20150322-russia-denmark-nato-ambassador-nuclear-attack-ships/

[Colorado Vince]

13. excuse me?

We had nukes pointed at our fucking outhouses during the Cold War! Fuck off, Vladdy, and put a goddam shirt on, fer Chrissakes!

[jberryhill]

14. I thought it said "warming"

...and thought it was a nice gesture for a moment.

[riqster]

16. Putin thinks "global warming" will be the glowing crust of the Earth, post-strike.

Indeed, he likely plans to strut about shirtless thereupon, to add to his tan.

What a delusional nincompoop.

[HereSince1628]

17. Obviously not going to happen outside a general attack on NATO

So is this speaking loud into an empty barrel to seem grand and powerful or something else?

I don't think Denmark really needs reminding that in a conflict Jutland becomes a strategic problem for the RF's military and commercial fleets as control of Jutland is required to bottle up the Baltic Sea.

I suppose this could also be a return to cold war threat to naval operations of Denmark in the Greenland Sea and Denmark straits. Would Denmark's joining the missle shield project put anti-missle missles in Greenland?

[davidpdx]

18. Who could blame some of the Nordic countries for wanting protection from Putin

He seems to have no problem sending aircraft in to violate the sovereign territory of some of those countries. Clearly he thinks they are weak and worth challenging.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

20. "Ah looked the man in the eye..."

" I found him to be very straight forward and trustworthy and we had a very good dialogue. I was able to get a sense of his soul."
--George Dubya Boosh, conservative icon, fawning over Putin




"He's what you call a leader!'
-- Rudy 91ul1ani

[RoccoR5955]

22. How Foolist, to threaten to start WWIII.

We are all gonna be dead if this starts.
Nukes will be dropped EVERYWHERE!

[7962]

24. Lets hear it from the Putin lovers. This is all Denmarks fault for not fearing Dear Leader.

And I'm sure there are Danes threatening Russians somewhere, and we all know russians MUST be protected even if they're not Russians

[rogerashton]

25. I think this is more serious than some seem to suppose.

The RF may feel they have a viable anti-Nato strategy, here. And it might work. On the one hand, membership in NATO brings non-nuclear European countries under the American/British "nuclear umbrella." On the other hand, it guarantees that the country will be embroiled in any confrontation between Russia and the US/Britain. When there were Soviet forces in East Germany and Czechoslovakia, the risk of being brought into a confrontation surely seemed less than the risk of being overrun by the Red Army. With the nearest Russian forces in the Kaliningrad Oblast, and Russia pinned down in the south by conflict in the Caucasus and Ukraine -- however aggressive the Russian position there is judged to be -- the risk of being drawn into a Russia-US conflict may begin to seem to be greater risk than the risk of being invaded by Russia, in a country like Denmark, Belgium, Spain -- or, indeed, Germany. Of course, the balance of risks will have a different appearance in Poland and the Baltic coast, and probably Norway (though Norway might look to the example of Finland.) If we see more of these reminders in western European countries, we may be seeing a strategy to weaken Nato as a whole, and one that could work.

Don't underestimate Putin as a strategist. The "Putin is crazy" view is oversimple and deceptive. Putin has a very weak position -- he knows it -- the one strength he has is the stock of nuclear weapons -- and he knows that. This is much more dangerous than many seem to recognize.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

28. I don't think so.

Read it directly - all Putin actually says is that people who 'join the game' put skin in the game too. That you can't have nuclear sub missiles aimed at Russia without them turning a few towards you in return.

So in reality, it's merely a statement of fact, that gets the PR bonus of allowing him to sound threatening as well.

[geek tragedy]

31. except tht missile shield wouldn't be a threat to Russia, it would merely

stop Russia from being a threat to Europe.

It's a threat not Russia, but rather to Russia's ability to itself threaten Europe

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

32. Of course. But saying that outright doesn't play into Putin's propaganda. nt

[rogerashton]

42. Nevertheless!

That it is a statement of fact does not make it less effective as a strategy but just the contrary. A bluff can be a strategy but is not the only possibility and in fact a weak one. And even if it is true that the "nuclear umbrella" doesn't threaten Russia -- that's, at best, a slanted statement but let us take it as true -- that doesn't mean that Russia isn't using it in a strategic way. Again, just the contrary.

[Downtown Hound]

52. Russia would still be threat even with the missile shield

It's not large or robust enough to stop Russia's nuclear arsenal, so that they're so afraid of it is actually quite laughable.

[geek tragedy]

54. the larger goal is to see if they can intimidate NATO and EU states

into undermining a united front against Russia in Ukraine today, possibly other EU/NATO members tomorrow.

[swilton]

36. Thank you

I also would add that the governments in these non-nuclear NATO countries are far from unified about the US-led approach to Russia and furthermore the NATO countries (28 now grown exponentially from the 12 founding members) are far from unified. The Baltic states and Poland are the most confrontational - even within those countries the political voices are mixed.

Also thank you for restating the irrationality of the Putin is crazy view...totally ideologically based and not founded upon Putin's actual record domestically and internationally.

Finally the world loses by the restart of a Cold War - the world loses with a nuclear confrontation - the Danes certainly know this.

[jeff47]

51. Yeah, Russia hasn't done anything to make their neighbors nervous.

Like annexing them.

NATO is expanding in direct response to Russian aggression, both historical and current. Georgia wasn't looking towards NATO until Russia took chunks of their country away, for example.

[rogerashton]

66. So, if I understand you,

Denmark and Russia, like Georgia and Russia, share a common border.

Well -- take a look at a map. My point was exactly that Denmark, unlike Poland (and Georgia) is some distance from Russia. And Russia, today, is weak, though not as weak as they were when they invaded Georgia.

Anyway, my post was about strategy. Was the expansion of NATO good strategy? Perhaps. But righteous indignation doesn't make good strategy. If we retain a close alliance with Poland and Estonia, but our alliance with Germany and France (and Denmark) is no longer reliable, then we are in a weaker position. And I think that is Russia's new strategy. Losing the advantage of a strong alliance of the US with western Europe will not help Georgia, or Poland either. So put down your righteous indignation and put on your thinking cap: how can we prevent Russia from outflanking us by this strategy?

[jeff47]

67. No, you only understand strawmen.

And stupid ones at that.

Denmark was one of the founding countries of NATO. You don't expand into a country that is already a member of the group.

Russia is supposedly upset about NATO expanding to countries on or near its borders. That expansion is happening due to what Russia has done to those countries in the past (conquered them), and what they've been doing recently to their neighbors (Georgia and Ukraine).

Anyway, my post was about strategy. Was the expansion of NATO good strategy?

No, your post was a pile of stupid, vomited forth in an attempt to excuse or minimize Russia's actions. 'Cause the "expansion of NATO" into Denmark was decided in 1949 when NATO was founded.

If we retain a close alliance with Poland and Estonia, but our alliance with Germany and France (and Denmark) is no longer reliable, then we are in a weaker position.

They're all NATO countries. An attack on the US is an attack on France and Germany. They are all well aware that Russia's nuclear weapons will be used against them in an attack.

Making an open threat is a new low for Russia. Which you want to excuse.

So put down your righteous indignation and put on your thinking cap: how can we prevent Russia from outflanking us by this strategy?

You think Denmark is expanding NATO and you want to talk about "thinking caps"?

How 'bout we release this is an empty threat from a desperate oligarch instead of doing whatever Putin asks?

After all, those "weakened" French and Germans VOTED TO ADMIT Estonia and the other Eastern European countries. Boy, that sure shows how they don't want to expand NATO!!

[rogerashton]

72. One further point.

I never, in any of our several posts, "excused" Russia's new threat, not did I ever speak of "expanding" NATO into Denmark. You seem a little hysterical in this post.

[jeff47]

38. Because a NATO vs Russia nuclear war wouldn't affect them if they weren't in NATO??!

Fallout is known to respect national borders, after all.

[rogerashton]

44. Better fallout than a strike on Danish territory. eom

[jeff47]

46. Not really. You have to deal with fallout. A direct strike

and they wouldn't have to worry about it. Because they'd all be dead.

More to the point, if they're supposedly worried about a direct strike, then NATO's anti-ballistic-missile systems would be a huge benefit. Russia would be driving the Dutch to do exactly what Russia says they do not want the Dutch to do.

[rogerashton]

50. So if I understand you,

a threat that you can survive with pain is less of a threat than a threat of death. Let me just say that makes no sense to me, but maybe that's just me.

And the antiballistic missiles would only be a "huge benefit" if they work. Not a physicist, so I'm not sure, but I think a launch submarine could come in under their horizon and strike from a fewscore miles away. Anyway, in a nuclear attack, a 90% success rate is failure.

[jeff47]

56. No, it is not a threat you can survive. You die a lingering death instead of instant vaporization.

Not a physicist, so I'm not sure, but I think a launch submarine could come in under their horizon and strike from a fewscore miles away

First, they're ballistic missiles. They still go up into space and come back down. That leaves a window for an anti-ballistic-missile to hit it.

Second, Russia's ballistic missile subs aren't based out of the Baltic sea. It's a confined and shallow space, which makes it easy for NATO to hunt down the subs. So they won't be sneaking up on Denmark from St. Petersburg.

Third, that 90% success rate works against Russia. They need to lob a lot more nukes at a single target in order to guarantee it gets destroyed. What good does nuking Denmark do when we shoot down the missiles lobbed at the US?

[rogerashton]

61. And you are a physicist, right?

So you know all this stuff. Even if so, it all sounds to me like a good reason to stay out of any dust-up between the US and Russia. I don't think Danes would be any more persuaded than I am that they are better off as targets of Russian missiles than not -- and what's persuasive is what matters where threats are concerned.

[jeff47]

62. Yes, it requires a physics degree to understand how a ballistic missile works.

It's just so utterly incomprehensible how a missile works! And physicists are of course the only people who understand naval strategy.

Even if so, it all sounds to me like a good reason to stay out of any dust-up between the US and Russia

They're already involved. They're in NATO. If there is a nuclear war between the US and Russia, they get hit whether or not they have US anti-ballistic missiles.

[rogerashton]

65. So -- we agree -- my opinions about nuclear missiles are as reliable as yours are.

And my opinions are contrary to yours, as already stated.

And my point was: they have reasons to get out of NATO. Once again, your post reinforces that point. No, it will not happen soon, but it will be a strategic goal for Putin and the ultra-right.

[jeff47]

68. You think a founding country is going to abandon NATO.

over a threat that they already knew about, and have lived under since they helped found NATO in 1949.

Is it hard to pretend to know so little about the subject you are talking about?

[rogerashton]

71. Europe is changing

and your tone is hardly friendly. Jeff, once again -- what I (or you) think about Denmark's loyalty to NATO is beside the point. Putin's strategies are based on what he thinks. And he is weak enough so that a bad bet may still be the best bet he has.

Jeff, your responses have uniformly been personal and demeaning. Now I too am going to say something personal. You provide a good example of the pathology of denial. It is the same denial that gave us the Iraq war. No, I am not saying that you are a neocon -- but I am saying that "Oh, that couldn't possibly happen" belongs on the list of Famous Last Words just after "Hey, bubba, watch this."

[laserhaas]

75. You mean imploding...

Euro is going zero

[geek tragedy]

43. the threat to Germany, et al isn't Russian troops parading through Berlin, it's

destabilizing Europe through chronic sub rosa interventions/invasions of eastern european countries, which include states that are members of both the EU and NATO.

Germany isn't in immediate danger, but Poland and the Baltics are.

[rogerashton]

45. I don't believe that affects my point.

This is still a far less hurtful threat than a nuclear strike on German territory. Where threats are concerned, the lesser evil is also the lesser threat.

[geek tragedy]

48. The Russian goal is to undermine NATO and European unity.

Their thinking is to get the Germans thinking that, well, maybe better to let Putin invade Lithuania than to risk a nuclear confrontation.

At the end of the day, Russia isn't respected abroad, and the only reason it's feared is the nukes.

The danger with playing the nuke card (well, one of the many, many problems) is that if it's treated as a bluff, there goes the fear factor.

[rogerashton]

53. Well, I think we mostly agree.

If both Russia and the United States are rational, and there are no random factors, then there will be no nuclear war. That's what MAD is about, thank you Tom Schelling. In that case, right, the "nuclear card" is a bluff.

But there are random factors.

[geek tragedy]

29. Robert Parry will explain how it was actually Ukrainian Nazis who made this threat nt

[TomVilmer]

30. Reply to this threat...

Remember the Danish cartoon crisis? It originated in our Danish neocon-ish newspaper Jyllands-Posten, which wanted to test if Danish cartoonists was afraid to make images of Muhammad. None was afraid, so Jyllands-Posten had to change the story until they could get the rage, they wanted. And they did...

Now Jyllands-Posten is hoping to build up a new global crisis. Russian ambassador wrote a nice text, warning the Danes that joining the new US Star Wars program would be expensive. And also, since this system is aimed at Russia, that it would be no challenge for Russian missiles to get through it.

Then the clever journalist asked, if these missiles also could hit the Danish warships, when they were equipped with the system. The ambassador confirmed. Yes, in wartime, also Denmark could be a target. No surprise there for us Danes. We have always known, that Denmark and Western Europe will be the designated battleground, if USA and Russia wanted to fight.

But the front page of Jyllands-Posten made it clear, that this was a very new and scary threat, directed directly at Denmark. And by special order by Putin himself, to scare us silly and obedient, so we would say no to joining Star Wars. The ambassadors advice to Denmark was actually quite polite, but also stupid. As a little country, we feel intimidated when other big countries tells us what to do. Well, except for USA, where our politicians seems to obey joyfully.

In the Danish peace movement, we do not feel helped by Russia, and for the majority of us, never did back in the communist times. They still shows off their big guns and nuclear missiles, which is no way to peace. We have similar problems with the USA, and our own quite militant government. Like in USA, the colour and rhetoric has shifted, but they still rely on violence as the main tool for foreign policy.

So, there was no Danish nuclear missile crisis. But there might be - if we all join this silly fear game, Jyllands-Posten is building...

[geek tragedy]

49. those missiles would go west, towards young men, correct?

Russian ambassador wrote a nice text, warning the Danes that joining the new US Star Wars program would be expensive. And also, since this system is aimed at Russia, that it would be no challenge for Russian missiles to get through it.

LOL, yes a nice little message about using nuclear weapons against Denmark.

[TomVilmer]

80. Try to read before your answer...

I wrote about two different texts, first the ambassadors letter with the message: "The current world events show once again that peace and stability can only be achieved through an equal dialogue between the world's leading powers." (In my probably bad translation).

And then the journalistic follow-up question in an article with: "If Denmark joins the missile shield, which is controlled by the United States, it means that Danish warships become targets for Russian nuclear missiles.", said the Russian ambassador Mikhail Vanin. Which does not really make sense - nobody would use nukes against our small boats, any missile could sink them.

There has always been plans about using nuclear weapons against Denmark. Danish pilots trained to defend our very small country with nukes, delivered by USA and stockpiled at the German border for us. If a big war should come, Denmark would be nuked - by enemies or allies.

There are still nuclear bombs enough to destroy the world. USA has left the ABM Treaty, and are now tinkering with new and smarter ballistic missiles. So are Russia. And the UK, France whatever. The words from the Russian ambassador does not make me more scared and angry. I simply do not see any news in it...

[EX500rider]

77. "if these missiles also could hit the Danish warships, when they were equipped with the system."

I think we are talking about ground based missile defense, not AEGIS warship based systems. And nuking the tiny Danish Navy seems a little overkill to me anyway, nukes might be used against a carrier group but unlikely to be deployed against a frigate or two.

[Diclotican]

33. bananas

bananas

I wrote about this in the weekend and got hammered by some of the more "pro" Russia crowds who is here on DU - and I had it right as the news broke at Berlinske tiende - or BT already tuesday or Friday - and was a warning to Denmark - for being part of the NATOs missile shield - and was a outright treat to Denmark - against its naval forces - who might be part of the missile shield...

To threatened another country - with nuclear weapons is not just an "opinion" - it is a outright treat to Denmark as a nation - and also in a larger context - a treat to every nordic country - and I do hope every diplomatic stations in Russia - that be Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Iceland and Finland - with or without also the baltic states now is making a front against russian open aggression - and tell Russia to stuff it - where the sun never sets - of course in a manner who is as diplomatic as human posible... That's one of the reasons we have diplomats around..

I think this, and many other issues with Russia who have arise the last couple of years - will do much damage to the normally peacefully neighborhood we live in - and even make the case for more military spending - to bolster the defense if Russia was to do more than just telling Denmark they might get a nuclear bomb on some of its naval forces if they continued to be part of the missile shield system NATO is starting to build - and have for some time...

To go that blunt to tell Denmark - and therefore also most of the other nations in the general area - that if you continue to work with NATO - you might end up in a nuclear war with Russia - is outrageous - and will also possible backfire greatly as it would mean everyone of them had to spend a lot more resources on military equipment and to make sure many more have to go true basic training mandatory - and maybe even make the different countries working closer tighter - to bolster its resources together against what is seen as an aggressive stance from Russia...


Diclotican

[MattSh]

39. What are those damned Russkies so paranoid about?

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• Kadena Air Base, Okinawa Prefecture
• Misawa Air Base, Misawa, Aomori
• Yokota Air Base, Tokyo
Kuwait
• Ahmed Al Jaber Air Base
• Ali Al Salem Air Base
Netherlands
• Joint Force Command Brunssum
Oman
• Masirah Air Base
• Thumrait Air Base
Portugal
• Lajes Field, Azores
Qatar
• Al Udeid Air Base
Saudi Arabia
• Eskan Village
Singapore
• Paya Lebar Air Base
South Korea
• Kunsan Air Base
• Osan Air Base
Spain
• Morón Air Base, Andalucia
Turkey
• Incirlik Air Base
United Arab Emirates
• Al Dhafra Air Base
United Kingdom
• RAF Alconbury, Huntingdonshire
• RAF Croughton, Northamptonshire
• RAF Lakenheath, Brandon, Suffolk [2]
• RAF Menwith Hill, Yorkshire Dales
• RAF Mildenhall, Mildenhall [3]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military_bases



And while we're at it...

[geek tragedy]

40. So, the spin from Team Putin is that Russia is threatening to nuke Denmark

in order to combat imperialism?

Along, of course, with the drug-induced map that shows NATO bases in Somalia and Kazakhstan.

You folks have officially:

[LanternWaste]

55. Moscow was certainly paranoid regarding the Crimea, Georgia and Ukraine...

Moscow was certainly paranoid regarding the Crimea, Georgia and Ukraine. No doubt, that's all due to the US, too...

[One_Life_To_Give]

41. Do we believe the Anchorage was not alerady targeted?

So the Russians expect us to believe out of the thousands of targeted area's. A major Nato members naval anchorage was heretofore left off the list?

[The Stranger]

57. What's strange is the massive media assault regarding "ISIS," which has nothing but swords and

machine guns, meanwhile the second most powerful nuclear former superpower is threatening nuclear war, and there is hardly any reporting of it.

This is the global terrorism media complex, which is far more powerful than the military-industrial complex.

[Xithras]

58. Putin's has made his end game clear for anyone who cares to look: MAD

Putin has stated, openly and publicly, that one of the biggest problems on the planet over the past few decades has been the behavior of the United States. From ISIS to Afghanistan, he believes that many of the worlds biggest problems can be traced back to "Americans behaving badly". And why does he think this has happened? Because when the Cold War ended, the United States was left with the largest military on the planet and absolutely no counterweight, and it's been running roughshod over the rest of the world ever since. In the 30 years prior to the ending of the Cold War (1960-1990), the United States and/or NATO directly fought in one major overseas conflict...Vietnam. In the 24 years following the end of the Cold War (1991-2015) we've fought in EIGHT...Gulf War 1, the Iraqi "air occupation" of the 1990's, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq 2, Libya, and the ISIS bombing campaign. He's said that Americans and NATO have become one of the most destabilizing forces on the planet today.

Putin has openly stated that what the world really needs is a new counterweight to prevent Americans from bullying the planet. He wants Russia to return to superpower status and act as the foundation to that counterweight. ALL of his moves have been designed to prove Russia's ability to counter anything he perceives as American imperialism, and to re-establish Russia as a serious contender on the world stage. He's trying to "prove himself" so that he can reach out to other nations that are looking for an alternative to America's vision for the planet and pull them into Russia's sphere of influence. He also wants to establish Russia as a safe harbor for nations that feel directly threatened by America or NATO.

Mutually Assured Destruction is Putin's trump card. He knows that Russia's conventional forces couldn't beat the NATO in an open war, so he's falling back on his nuclear arsenal to bolster his position. He believes that, if NATO thinks that angering Russia could lead to nuclear war, then they'll have to start balancing their policies against the risk of global annihilation. That can't happen unless the west believes that he's serious about using them.

The worst part of all this? He's not really all that wrong in his worldview. While there are certainly better alternatives than a Russian-centered anti-NATO bloc built around MAD, his analysis of the need to check NATO's power is entirely correct, and his plan will be very effective if he can pull it off. He's behaving badly, but his analysis isn't actually wrong.

[geek tragedy]

64. the bigger problem for Putin is that Russia is no longer the other superpower.

China is. If the two align, Russia is clearly the junior partner in that relationship.

The US is annoyed by his misbehavior in Eastern Europe. It's genuinely worried about China's ambitions.

[Xithras]

70. A lot of it comes back to BRIC ambitions.

I don't know that Putin really cares as much about being "the" superpower as he cares about being "a" superpower in the economic revolution that will remap the world in the coming century. The old Sino-Russian split has largely been buried over the past few decades, and multiple treaties have lead to a close economic relationship between the two. Putin has been a huge supporter of the BRICs concept and made sure that Russia was host to the first summit of BRICs nations. Economists have been talking for nearly 20 years about the fact that Brazil, Russia, India, and China will be the dominant economic powers on the planet by 2050 (there are already more billionaires in the BRICs nations than in all the "western" world combined). Goldman Sachs is currently projecting that China will pass the U.S. as the largest equity market in the world by 2030...only 15 years from now. By 2050, BRICs will represent the majority of the worlds population, its largest economies, the worlds largest producers of completed goods, and the worlds largest producers of raw materials.

Putin sees BRICs as the instrument that will ultimately end American hegemony both militarily and economically. His problem is that he can't really push to build a cohesive political bloc with the other BRIC nations unless they take Russia seriously. He needs for them to see Russia as a superpower capable of standing up to America and NATO before any of them will take the political (and possible military) risks that go along with really severing the ties that bind them to the U.S. and Europe. Putin's various political and military ventures really come down to his showing off to make that one simple point.

You may be right that China will be the economic power in any eastern alliance, and I'm sure that Putin realizes that, but China tends to be a bit shy when it comes to military confrontation with the west. They seem to avoid behaviors that might challenge or undermine the economic progress they have made, while still being ambitious about their position in the world. If Russia's ultimate role is to act as the sword and shield in a new international alliance that is dominated both economically and politically by China, I'm not sure that Putin would really have a problem with that. It still restores Russia to superpower status and puts the nation on the "winning side" of the upcoming economic shift.

[geek tragedy]

73. It will be a very, very, very long time before BRICS outweighs North America, Europe, Japan and

South Korea. The number of billionaires is not exactly a good measure of economic health.

Russia's economy is the size of Italy's. And it has no plausible growth plan--all they do is pump oil and gas for purchase by other countries. What happens when the oil runs out?

BRICS is a talking point more than a new world economic order.

I wouldn't count on India and Brazil being rock solid tying their destinies to the world's two largest authoritarian states. It's not in their interest to align against the US.

Moreover, the US and European markets are far more important to China than anything Russia has to offer.

[Xithras]

78. The goal of BRIC's isn't to recreate the Iron Curtain.

We're not talking about throwing up trade barriers here and choosing between "us" and "them". We're talking about an economic and political alliance that will relegate NATO and America to second-tier status. Barring world war or a major global catastrophe, most economists believe that the BRIC's nations will be the worlds dominant economic powers by 2050. How that economic power will translate to political might, and where that political might will be focused, is the real question.

China already has a larger economy than Japan. In 2013, they became the largest trading country on the planet. By 2030 they will have the largest equity and investment markets in the world. If they were to slam the port gates shut on us today, the economic devastation in the United States would be staggering. And the Chinese government has ALREADY made statements emphasizing that they're getting tired of American political and military dominance in the world, and have been increasingly taking oppositional views to the U.S. government on international political issues. The rise of the BRIC's nations with Russia as a sword will not usher in a "Cold War II", but an economic and political restructure that will reduce the NATO's stature in the world and counter its ability to act arbitrarily on international issues.

And that's why the size of Russia's economy is irrelevant. BRIC's isnt' about turning Russia into China's new trading partner. Russia's primary economic role in BRIC's is to act as an exporter that feeds raw materials into China's massive manufacturing machine (a role they are already playing today).

Political power comes from a combination of economic power and military power. China supplies the economic power. A restored Russian superpower could provide the military power, or at least the western branch of it. Together, that gives the BRIC nations a tremendous amount of political power. Which, above all else, is Putin's end goal. It's why Putin has been such a huge supporter of the BRIC's concept...he sees it as Russia's way back to international relevance. If they ultimately end up playing second fiddle to China, it still puts them in a much better global position than they have today.

BTW, I wouldn't be so sure about Brazil's loyalties either. As a nation, they have been increasing ties with U.S. rivals for quite some time now, and openly defy U.S. will regularly. They have also been projecting more political and economic power into Central and South America over the past decade, and haven't exactly been secretive about their desire to disrupt traditional U.S. hegemony over the region. While they have not been confrontational about it, they have come to recognize their own economic and political importance and aren't afraid to chart their own course when it suits them. The government of Brazil has even hosted the 2010 BRICS conference in Brasilia, so they certainly are not opposed to the concept.

[geek tragedy]

79. Who thinks that Russia will be a more dominant economy than the EU and North America?

Will those 5 countries grow faster, yes.

But I have yet to see any substantiation to the claim that Europe and North America and Japan will all be relegated to second-tier status. Indeed to suggest that South Africa and Russia will be top tier while Europe and North America are relegated to second tier is pure nonsense.

To put things in perspective:

Today, in 2015, Japan alone has a higher GDP than Russia and Brazil combined.

Russia's economy is 1/8th the size of the US.

South Africa's economy is smaller than Thailand's. It's 1/4th the size of South Korea's.

In terms of real GDP (if you count the EU as one country) (using World Bank stats):

NAFTA (US/Canada/Mexico): $19.854 Trillion
European Union: $17.958 Trillion
China: $9.240 Trillion
Japan: $4.919 Trillion
Brazil: $2.245 Trillion
Russia: $2.097 Trillion
India: $1.876 Trillion
Australia: $1.56 Trillion
South Korea: $1.304 Trillion
...
Argentina: $607 Billion
...
South Africa $350 Billion

All of the BRICS countries COMBINED are less than the US economy alone.

And note that I did not even include countries like Australia and New Zealand (combined GDP equal to India) which will always be aligned with Europe and North America.

Brazil and India are not going to take orders from Beijing.

[olddots]

82. bring it on Vlad .

You are soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo butch !

[Art_from_Ark]

84. Not this Cold War shit again

The first time around was bad enough