Italian police: Muslim migrants threw Christians overboard

[hollowdweller]

Source: CNN

Rome (CNN)—Muslims who were among migrants trying to get from Libya to Italy in a boat this week threw 12 fellow passengers overboard -- killing them -- because the 12 were Christians, Italian police said Thursday.

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/16/europe/italy-migrants-christians-thrown-overboard/index.html

---

WTF??

OK leaving a predominately Muslim country trying to flee to a predominately Christian country. The Pope who lives there has decried persecution of Christians. So You dump the Christians off the boat before you get there?? Not exactly the way to be welcomed with open arms?

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

1. WTF?

Does anyone in Italy have enough guts to deny these people entry? I don't give a shit if they are stateless, and have to live on that damn boat for the rest of their lives. They belong in prison, anyway. Hope they keep them there for the rest of their lives if they allow them to stay.

[JustAnotherGen]

7. See my post down thread

You gotta get a handle on the politics, the culture and - The Austerity.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

13. I say take them out to the middle of the ocean and dump their asses.

If they can be reliably identified of course.

[JustAnotherGen]

16. You are in luck

If you are arrested in Italy -

You have no presumption of innocence.
You are guilty.

Now prove you didn't do it.

Unfortunately - it will take bread off the table of the people there - because no one is willing to help Italy (in dire straits) financially with this mess.

[closeupready]

18. Exactly. Amanda Knox and her supporters know better than to believe

the lies spouted by agents of a deeply corrupt Italian justice system that is racist and bigoted.

[JustAnotherGen]

20. Exactly - partially

I'm married to a man from Italy - and we own several homes there. He also has an interest in his brother's construction company. The reality is - black Americans - we started this. We went for the warmth of warmer and kinder suns - some abroad after WW I and WW II. And the fact is - we assimilated - overwhelmingly Christian and well . . . we do Sunday dinner.

My experience as a black American wife, educated and a tither (proved it) getting her citizenship - is quite different than an Eastern European woman with little education - or a Muslim woman coming in from Libya. <--- Even if it is by marriage.

So yes - there is racism.

See it? Black christians - these 15 guys are DONE. Just done. They killed the ones who are perceived as enhancing Italy with the gifts they bring.

My facebook feed is on fire - it's after dinner time there and They Is Pissed about this. They is pissed to high holy hell. My older brother in law is ranting about how they 'took good workers' from them. Like - they PERSONALLY did this to Lou.

I'm telling you - the Amanda Knox case showed me the 'true face' - this one is making that look 'nice'. I just don't want a black American flying by and thinking they are going to get the blatant mistreatment we get here. It exists - but not like how white Americans do it to us.

We do the same thing in America you know? Think about how we caged up those little kids in the South West last summer. As IF they were a part of ISIS. As if. Can't make this shit up!

[closeupready]

22. I too thank you 4 speaking - it's sadly the DB racists who

speak the loudest, most of the time on these topics. I'm glad you are here.

[JustAnotherGen]

23. I try to be honest

:honest: - or at least stand in the truth. I love my soon to be second country - wonderful people. But just as in America - my love is not blind.

[freshwest]

48. Sounds more like you are 'out of luck' with the guilty until proven innocent standard, no? n/t

[spoutinghorn]

34. Well, with the Crusades and all

can you really blame them?

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

37. They are seeking asylum in ITALY

You don't see a disconnect there?

[treestar]

2. That does sound pretty inconsistent

Maybe some personal fight took place, and the religious breakdown happened to be how both sides shook out? People supporting their buddies, countrymen getting into the brawl.

[hollowdweller]

4. I wondered the same thing

It doesn't say but sort of looks bad on the face of it.

[geek tragedy]

3. They earned everyone a return ticket to Africa. nt

[JustAnotherGen]

5. The final destination isn't Italy

Italy does not finger print.
They do not put people in cages (like we did those children coming across our southern border last summer).
They are free to come and go.

They disperse across the continent.

Italy processes for asylum seekers. Those are the people who get absorbed.

From about October 2013 until late last year - the Mare Nostrum arose as a result of so many people dying trying to make the journey. The impetus for that huge jump was the fall of Libya. Tunisia is doing what Ghaddafi (sp?) was doing - controlling the flow out - but Libya isn't doing it anymore. I think I read stats earlier this week of 175K in La Republicca from late 2013 to late 2014.

[seveneyes]

6. They disperse across the continent

What continent would not want a bunch of people roaming around that throw people off of boats because of their religion?

[JustAnotherGen]

8. Take a deeper dive

I'm betting those were black Christians. Doesn't matter if you are a refugee from Africa or the black religious foreign bride from America to an Italian man. . . they go to the front of the line. Why? My husband can better explain it - but there is a history of assimilation and becoming Italian due to the level of appreciation and respect for the welcoming culture and well - rich history of the people.

We'll have to wait and see - but his gut response to the story (he texted me the link on DU and to La Republicca) - those 12 were black Christians who the Arab Muslims or Black Muslims knew would go to the head of the line.

There've been other reports of this the past year. My older sister in law works pretty high up in social services for immigrants/adoption/refugees etc. etc. It's become eh - prevalent. You won't see a lot about it in the American media because our media.

[heaven05]

10. Interesting

thanks. Maybe it wasn't just religion.

[JustAnotherGen]

11. He makes me nervous sometimes

I think - he'll never come out and admit it . . . but that's the way things are.

[JustAnotherGen]

12. Another thought

Wasn't there reports of pretty harsh racist policies in Libya prior to the fall of Ghaddafi (sp?) towards their black citizens? Pssst - there were. Tell me - who is going to be perceived as appreciating the chance to assimilate more - the religion/race discriminated coming there? Who is perceived as hard working and becoming Italian and even registering their children in the local churches?

[geek tragedy]

14. well, those people didn't do Muslim asylum seekers any favor with this hate crime.

This is exactly the kind of thing that xenophobes in Europe point to when arguing that Muslims immigrants should be unwelcome.

[JustAnotherGen]

15. I don't disagree -

And I think I'm right - they were black Christians - all 12 were Nigerian and Ghananian. Go to this link - http://palermo.repubblica.it/cronaca/2015/04/16/news/sbarchi_600_profughi_a_trapani_sentiti_i_testimoni_della_sparatoria_al_largo_della_libia-112087444/?ref=HREA-1

You should be able to use babel or google chrome to translate the page.

And note - since it happened in International Waters - it's a little more complex. There are no hate crimes laws in Italy - those laws just don't exist. But - If you are arrested you are guilty. There is no presumption of innocence and they will make a hard example out of this.


Andrea Orlando is a higher level justice brought in because of the 'no mans land' nature of the aggravated murder aggravated by religious hatred.

[LittleGirl]

19. thanks for your informative comments

on this thread. much appreciated.

[JustAnotherGen]

21. I've had to take my citizenship test

And the Amanda Knox thing was going on at the same time. So I've had to learn this. The easiest way to 'think' in the language to take the test - is reading newspapers. And watching the Italian news - because they speak accentless Italian.

[LittleGirl]

24. good info

I'm going to learn italian when I can speak german well enough to survive in this country (switzerland). I'm just starting german so I'll work on that first and then start italian later. cheers or ciao!

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

31. Not really...

the accent is heavily from Roma on the news.

You can tell where in Italy someone is from by the pronuciation of this word: rosa.

Those of us in northern to central Italy pronounce as ro-za where the s sounds like a z.

Southward, the pronunciation switches to ro-ssa where the s is as in 'say' or 'speak.'

[JustAnotherGen]

41. My husband corrects the dang Rosetta Stone

Hes Calabrese - they sound very different and it's frustrating when you are trying to learn it. It screws me up when hes talking over the program correcting it. They have all of these phrases that you can't find in the books. I'd like to go and do immersion in Tuscany. Or can I come to your house? I need help. I'm not kidding. I'm NOT kidding. Like - sofa. He says it like its four syllables. They add extra letters! Enough bout my personal hell -

What do you think about all of this? My husband's younger sister - her husband is in the Navy. I can't help but think these guys made a tese situation worse. Do you think this going to give the Northern League ammo? They are so hateful as it s.

[mainer]

25. The harsh racist policies in Libya happened after the fall of Gaddafi.

Prior to his fall, they were brought into Libya as workers and protected. After Gaddafi's fall, the rebels turned against them.

[JustAnotherGen]

27. And now -they gotta get out!

Yikes. Thanks for the clarity on this point!

[mountain grammy]

40. Thank you for your insight and information on this thread

It's helpful to read other angles on this story, which is so hard for me to understand.

[heaven05]

9. well

religion and their extremist followers, strike again. My God is god! Oh no hell no, my God is the right god! Keep it up I'll prove who God is the right god, I'll kill you!!!!! How fucking sad.

[happyslug]

26. I think this has NOTHING to do with religion as a religion, but who belongs to what religion.

Last edited Thu Apr 16, 2015, 03:44 PM - Edit history (1)

During the Troubles in Ireland some radicals broke into a business run by a Jewish couple, the radicals asked them if they were Catholic or Protestant, the couple replied, they were Jewish, the Radical came back "Catholic Jews or Protestant Jews?'

The sides were organized along religious lines but the dispute was NOT religion itself. Thus a jew could be "Catholic" or "Protestant" depending on which side they supported in that Civil Rights dispute.

It appears to be the same problem here, two groups were on the boat, and the side that happened to be Moslem decided to drop all the Christians over the side. Could it be Religious in causation? Maybe, but why would Moslems who want to kill Christians go to a Catholic Country in search for jobs? It makes no sense.

On the other hand, the Christian population of Sub Sahara Africa has been expanding, and that include most of "Black" Africa. Thus this may be racial in that the Moslems were all from North Africa and/or the Sahara and thus "Dark skin Whites" as oppose to Blacks skinned Africans from south of the Sahara. IN Libya and much of North African, you have a massive discrimination (and to a degree Hatred) of Black skinned Africans. Thus the killings may be of North Africans killing off Blacks from further south, that the North Africans are Moslems and the Black skin Africans are Christian, just an accident. This Christian vs Moslem "dispute" may be something else, but like the troubles of Northern Ireland, the sides tend to follow religious lines even when religion is not a factor in the fight.

Thus before we start talking about how religion can lead to bad things, lets make sure the dispute was religious in nature NOT something else. The Victims were from Nigeria and Ghana and the accused were from Ivory Coast, Mali and Senegal. Now, you have to watch the borders of Africa. Most of the borders were drawn up by Bismark in the 1880s. He was viewed "Neutral" in the race for colonies and end up drawing the lines to separate the claims. The problem was Bismark wanted to other countries of Europe to be at each other's neck so in drew the borders to cause Maximum conflict (he used rivers as borders, Rivers are natural highways, thus they tend to UNITE people not separate them, thus by using rivers Bismark knew conflict across that river/border will occur. Bismark also divided tribes, knowling tribes valued what tribe they belong to more then what country they are in. The borders of African are artificial and a recipe for war, which was Bismark's intention when he divided African as a "Favor" to his fellow Europeans.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa

[Joe Chi Minh]

29. You can be a Catholic or Protestant atheist in Northern Ireland!

Last edited Thu Apr 16, 2015, 05:27 PM - Edit history (1)

[heaven05]

36. interesting

I'll have to go to my "Destruction of Black Civilization". I understand the intra-race hatred based on shades of skin color on the continents as well as tribal animosities(Uganda comes to mind). The Arabs, some northern Africans, Libya et al and Asians for centuries were hateful toward the darker skinned Africans of the wider continent. Hell, slavery was partially based on the perceptions of race by the whites and lighter POC. Thank you, I appreciate your effort.

[LanternWaste]

30. the naked man yelling to the villagers that the emperor has no clothes.

Replace 'religion' in your statement with 'country' or a particular candidate and it could be DU. How sad indeed.

We pretend imaginary governments and red and black lines on map are real and substantial-- the naked man yelling to the villagers that the emperor has no clothes.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

38. Yeah, we all want to kill anyone attempting to get here

And governments are not at all imaginary. Groups of people tax and spend for the sake of the people in the group.

[closeupready]

17. Because, as in the Foxy Knoxy scandal, we know the Italian justice system

is fair and never lies.

[DeSwiss]

28. Which only serves to reinforce the fact......

...that religionists of all stripes are ignorant, cult-worshiping lunatics.

All. Of. Them.

- These people do not pass the Evolution Test.

K&R

Pencils, down.

[FrodosPet]

47. Do you mean like THESE ignorant, cult-worshiping lunatics?

[hollowdweller]

32. CNN is now saying some formed a human chain

And were "spared"??

Not sure if that means they were Christian or just that they opposed them tossing them over from the context:

Other people on the voyage told police that they themselves were spared "because they strongly opposed the drowning attempt and formed a human chain," Palermo police said.

[Sunlei]

33. the authorities arrested them right away. I think the Italian coast guard & all the medical help,

and ground authorities personal, work hard- they're amazing.

Thousands of people have drown in their attempts to cross.

[Eric Stratton]

35. Does anyone here have the notion.....

that this post/article is complete non-sense....a troll to further inflame the fear and hostility toward Muslims.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

39. Well, I didn't post this article

but it is of interest to me since BBC4 radio does a lot of reporting on the plight of the refugees crossing into Italy. One group of immigrants was left adrift at sea by their smugglers. These poor people pay large sums of money to travel on unworthy sea vessels that only smugglers would be willing to buy. They buy the vessels for so cheap, and load them up with so many people, that the smugglers can desert the boat and still make a "profit."

And then they but another vessel and start all over. Meanwhile, many people are dying at sea.

[hollowdweller]

42. I DID post it.

The reason was because I thought it was severely fucked up that rather than stick together on a dangerous journey where they needed to pull together- that some of the people deviated from survival mode just to kill the people of another religion. That's screwed.

Also because of the irony of the people who did the killing being Islamic, yet leaving a majority Muslim country to come to a largely Christian country, or at least toward Europe where nobody is gonna kill THEM for being Islamic. If they believed like that maybe they should have stayed where they were in the bed they made.

I hope they take a hard line against them personally. We don't want that attitude here. I have some friends from Iran and Jordan and they say they feel more free to practice their religion HERE than where they came from. I have a couple buddies, black americans who are Islamic. Were instrumental in helping get the local mosque built here. They say now a lot of people from the middle east go there, have sort of taken it over and are telling them they are going to hell for not doing it THEIR way! That's fucked up!

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

44. agree!

Totally fucked up!

[brooklynite]

45. Are you perhaps projecting US hostility to muslims onto Italy?

Unless you're suggesting US media completely made up the story?

[Jesus Malverde]

43. .

[Ilsa]

46. A migrant boat has capsized... over 600 believed dead.

BBC World News said they may have been locked into hull.