Poland marks 70th anniversary of end of WWII

[Omaha Steve]

Source: AP

WARSAW, Poland (AP) — Poland's president is leading international commemorations marking the 70th anniversary of the end of World War II, a gathering meant as an alternative celebration to Moscow's Red Square parade two days later.

President Bronislaw Komorowski organized the commemorations, which are to begin late Thursday in Gdansk, in reaction to the deep divisions between the West and Russia over Moscow's actions in Ukraine.

It was meant to give Western leaders who want to avoid the Russian ceremonies a chance to pay homage to the Allied victory over Nazi Germany in 1945. In the end, however, few leaders have agreed to come.

The guest list, however, does include U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, European Council President Donald Tusk and several presidents from Central Europe.

Read more: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/7a6caefd3a4246dba8d84060d34e066f/poland-marks-70th-anniversary-end-wwii

[jakeXT]

1. I wonder how many people are still talking about the mysterious Sikorski death

The 1943 Gibraltar B-24 crash resulted in the death of estimated sixteen people, including general Władysław Sikorski. Sikorski was the commander-in-chief of the Polish Army and the Prime Minister of the Polish government-in-exile. Sikorski's Liberator II crashed off Gibraltar almost immediately after takeoff, with the plane's pilot being the only survivor. While this catastrophe was ruled as an accident, several conspiracy theories continue to persist.

The relationship between the Soviet Union and Poland was tenuous at best during the closing stages of World War II for a variety of reasons, and became more so, after the 1940 Katyn massacre of over 20,000 Polish servicemen by the Russians came to light. However, being pragmatic, general Władysław Sikorski was still open to some form of normalisation of Polish-Soviet relations, while general Władysław Anders was vehemently opposed.[1] To boost morale, Sikorski began a tour of inspection of the Polish forces stationed in the Middle East in May 1943, tending to political affairs where necessary.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1943_Gibraltar_B-24_crash

[roamer65]

2. AP got it wrong.

VE Day wasn't the end of WW2, just the end of conflict in Europe. The end of WW2 came with Japan's agreement to unconditional surrender on Aug 14, 1945 and its signing of the surrender on Sept 2, 1945.

[Omaha Steve]

3. Like a 20-30 year old intern would know that

[happyslug]

4. Did Poland ever Declare war on Japan??? I do not believe so, thus for Poland WWII ended on May 9

On January 25. 1942 Thailand (Then known as Siam) declared war on the US:

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/thailand-declares-war-on-the-united-states-and-england

The then Siam Ambassador to the US told the US Secretary of State that he had received the declaration and had it in his pocket but would NOT deliver it to the US unless the Secretary really wanted it. Thus officially the US never recognized Thailand having declared war on the US and treated Thailand as an "Occupied" country controlled by Japan not as Japan's ready and eager ally (Which it was till it became clear that Japan was losing the War, and the leadership of Thailand decided to go with the winning side, but that was 1945 not 1942).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declarations_of_war_during_World_War_II

On 12-11-1941 the Polish government in exile declared war on Japan, the Japanese Government REJECTED that declaration on the grounds that the Polish Government in Exile was based in London and only issued the declaration of war under British pressure after Japan had attacked Malaysia and Singapore (Both occurred after Pearl Harbor but the Polish Government in Exile was in London NOT Washington).

Thus did the "Government" of Poland ever declared war on Japan??? The Polish Government in exile was recognized as the official Government of Poland by the US, Britain (Till July 5, 1945) and even the Soviet Union (Till January 25th, 1945) but it had no say in what happened in Poland during that time period. Hitler ruled most (and at times all) of Poland from October 1939 till the Soviet Red Army moved into Poland in the Fall of 1944, then Stalin ruled Poland. Thus what the Polish Government in Exile said after October 1939 did NOT reflect Poland (and this can be shown that the Government of Japan NEVER signed a peace treaty with Poland, Japan did sign one with the US, Britain and a truce with the Soviet Union but not even a Truce was signed with Poland).

By the end of WWII, the Polish Government In exile Stayed in London, Stalin had his troops all over Poland and Set up a different Polish Government which refused to accept anything Polish Government in Exile did after 1939. The present Government of Poland sees itself as a decedent of that post WWII Government NOT the Polish Government in Exile. This reflects what happened in 1989 when the Soviet Union started to pull its troops out of Eastern Europe.

Starting in 1989, do to the ongoing economic crisis, the Polish Communist Party saw that it could NOT rule Poland and agreed to dissolved the People Republic of Poland and the Communist Party itself and turn the assets of both over to the New Government, referred to as the Polish Third Republic.

Thus the present government of Poland is a continuance of the Government of Poland formed by Stalin during WWII NOT the Polish Government in Exile of WWII. Thus no declaration of War between Poland and Japan was ever issued by a Government Ruling Poland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Poland_%281989%E2%80%93present%29

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/History_of_Poland_%281945-1989%29

Now the Polish Government in Exile lasted till 1990 when Poland elected Lech Welsea its first NON-Communist leader since 1945. In 1990 the Polish Government in Exile had returned all the items it retained from pre-WWII Poland and in 1992 the Polish Government recognized all of the medals and other awards issued by the Government in Exile as valid Polish Awards. On the other hand, the declarations of war and other actions of the Government in Exile were NOT accepted.

US and Britain withdrew recognition of the Polish Government in Exile as the Government of Poland in the Summer of 1945 (yes BEFORE Japan Surrendered).

Thus the only war recognized by a Polish Government actually ruling Poland ended on May 9th 1945 when Germany Surrendered.

The US withdrew it recognition of the Polish Government in Exile on July 5th, 1945 and with that withdraw what the Government in Exile did became moot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland%E2%80%93United_States_relations#Communist_period

[newthinking]

5. Excellent observation

History will always have different perspectives when it involves multiple cultures and locations.
And it does not necessarily mean that one view is more "appropriate" than the other. They may be two sides of the same coin.

The more one delves into the depths of things that we only learn on the surface, the more apparent it becomes that large historical events, like WWII, are deeply complex matters with many less than transparent contributions.

[happyslug]

6. The best way to look at WWII, is as four separate wars.

First is the War for Polish Independence, that started on September 1, 1939 when Hitler moved into Poland. It ended in May 1940 when German Troops took Paris and the French Surrendered. At that point the only way to free Poland was with Soviet Troops OR US troops, and both the US and the Soviet Union were neutral.

Now a Semi-hot cold war then started between Germany and Britain. Germany had no real means of invading Britain, but Germany was to strong on the ground for any successful British invasion. Yes, you had the Battle of Britain, which showed the limits of German's Air Force but the subsequent bombing of German Cities by Britain quickly showed the limits of British Air Power (Germany's war production actually INCREASED during the last years of WWII while under bombardment by both the US and British Air Forces).

Side note: British bombing policy was developed starting in 1921 in Iraq, it was a policy of bombing hostile villages and then machine gunning them from the air. On the surfaced it worked, the British killed a huge numbers of Iraqis (the bombing and machine-gunning was so effect that the proposals to use gas on those same villages was cancelled). The problem with the bombing was these were villages unprepared for such attacks. Once the Iraqis learn of the British Policy, they changed tactics, but it took them a while. First they told villagers to prepare shelters, slit trenches at first, then covered trenches with roofs of steel or timber with several feet of dirt over the roofs. Second was to get people use to shooting at area targets, including leading the target. Best done with tracing ammunition. By the time the Iraqis had adopted these tactics both sides had come to an agreement, the British would NOT shoot up the villages, and in turn the natives would leave the British pick their king and his advisers and have the right to veto anything Iraq did. This lasted till the 1930s, when Iraq made more movement to real Independence, which in turn ended in 1941 when Britain invaded Iraq for the Government was getting to close to Nazi Germany. In the Invasion of Iraq in 1941, Britain stayed on the main roads, and kept the Iraq Army intact (Just provided them 50% rations, so the Soldiers would be to busy looking for food to plot to take over the government again).

Anyway, the bombing of Cities started with the bombing of Villages in Iraq in 1921. The British took home with them the attitude the bombing had "won" the war and thus all Britain had to do was bomb German Cities and the People of Germany would demand Germany Surrender. That the British People did not demand Britain Surrender when Germany Bomb Britain seem to have been given no weight by these advocates of bombing. After WWII, the bombing campaign was analysed and found to have been useless, except when it was aimed at the transportation system of Germany. US and British Advocates of Bombing took that report and said all it said not enough bombs were dropped and that problem was solved with the Atomic Bomb, thus these bombing advocates ran the US Air Force till the 1960s and was the force behind having enough Atomic and Hydrogen bombs to destroy the Soviet Union nine times over. Studies of how the Soviet Army fought WWII were ignored till we ran across those same tactics in Korea (One of the reason for the high US kill ratio in Korea was Soviet Tactics favored direct support of the troops on the ground then had US tactics, this was in addition to the lack of training of the Korean and Chinese Pilots AND the Koran and Chinese Policy of attacking the bombing B-29s not the escorting Fighters). This Bombing Campaign ran the whole length of WWII but had no real effect on the war itself, in many ways it was a fifth war.

This Semi-Hot Cold War continued in Africa, when Italy invaded Egypt and Greece (and proceeded to lose both, which lead to German Intervention in the Spring 1941 in both which lead to Britain having to give up Greece and retreat back from Libya). Some raids were made by the British, Germany started its U-boat campaign, but all of these small "wars" were more efforts to get Britain and Germany to negotiate a peace then to defeat each other. Then Hitler moved East Into the Soviet Union. Hitler failed to take Moscow by December 1941 and from that date forward Hitler never had the oil to launch a real attack (some counter attacks, such as the Battle of the Bulge in December 1944, but nothing like what the German Army had done in Poland in 1939, France in 1940, in Yugoslavia and Greece in Spring 1941, in Russia in 1941 and then on the Russia Southern Front in 1942 (and that was a mere echo of the earlier attacks, ending in Stalingrad).

The Russian Front became isolated from the other fronts, and in many ways the Second real War of WWII. 80% of German Troops from 1941 onward were tied up in Russia. 75% of ALL Germany causalities were on the Russian Front. This tie up of German Resources in Russia is the only reason the US and Britain could even think that an invasion of Europe was possible (and then it took to 1944 to get the supplies needed for the invasion). Thus what many call the "Third War" of WWII, became possible only do to the Second war. In many ways the War with Russia was the Main War of WWII, it was the result of the First War, the War for Polish Independence, but independent of that war. The Western front, the Third War of the four wars of WWII, could only occur do to how much Germany had to devote to the Russian Front.

The fourth war of WWII, is the war against Japan. In many ways the Western Allies actually spent more effort on the Air War over Germany then they did against Japan (and not much more effort then in the cold war between the Fall of France and the Invasion of Russia). Japan lost just under 1/2 a million men to US forces and 1/3 of a million men do to the invasion of Manchuria in August 1945 by the Soviet Union.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#endnote_Japan

The Invasion of Manchuria, one of the most massive attacks in all of WWII, would have put Soviet Forces in control of Manchuria by September 1, 1945 and all of Korea by October 1, 1945 (to offset this US Marines were sent into Inchon in August 1945 to take Seoul before Soviet Forces could take that city). This "invasion of Inchon" was five years before MacArthur did his famous invasion of Inchon during the Korean War. In many ways the Soviet Invasion of Manchuria was the reasons the Japanese Surrendered on August 15th 1945 NOT the Atomic bombings. The Soviet Union represented Communism, and the Japanese Communist Party was the only SIZABLE party NOT tied in with the ruling elite of Japan that had lead Japan into WWII. Fear of a Communist takeover (or participation in the Government ruling Japan, as what had happened in Romania and Bulgaria in 1944) was the biggest fear of the ruling elite of Japan in August 1945. At the time the Ruling elites of Japan talked about a Social Revolution MAY occur, lead by the Communists to put them out of power and the Communists into power. This was the greater fear then occupation by a clearly Anti-Communist US Government. The later would refuse to deal with the Communists and thus be forced to deal with the same ruling elites that lead Japan into WWII. The actual leaders of the ruling elite would change but NOT the class of people ruling.

Thus the Fourth War of WWII ended do to fears of Communism, a fear not limited to the US.

[newthinking]

7. My own "relearning" of WWII did not occur until

I traveled to Eastern Europe and visited relatives. We had good nature'd arguments and visited a number of historical sites. It turned my understanding of that War on it's back and sent me on a quest to learn more and not take for granted what I had been taught was necessarily accurate, but rather a cultural interpretation. I am still learning as I investigate all of the arguing going on about perspectives of particular incidents between different countries.

I agree with your summary above. My understanding also, was that there was a good chance that Japan was ready to surrender *before* we used nuclear weapons. I don't think many Americans are aware that much more damage was done by conventional weapons in Japan than the nukes did.

[MillennialDem]

8. Or really another way to look at it is two separate wars

The German (and allies)-Soviet War. The Axis suffered even higher than 75% casualties in Russia because that's where all or most of the non-German and non-Italian troops died. The Romanians, Bulgarians, Hungarians, Yugoslavs, Slovaks, Finns didn't fight on the Western or NA fronts..

and

all the other relatively minor wars.

[MillennialDem]

9. Yes but the real boogeyman was defeated in Europe. It was only a matter of time

before the Soviets, Brits, and Americans crushed the Japanese.

The European Axis actually stood a chance at winning the war or at least forcing a stalemate. Japan not so much.