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Tue May 26, 2015, 06:05 PM

 

Russia Is Using Mobile Crematoriums to Hide Ukraine's Dead

Source: Bloomberg

Russia is so desperate to hide its military involvement in Ukraine that it has brought in mobile crematoriums to destroy the bodies of its war dead, say U.S. lawmakers who traveled to the war-torn country this spring.

The U.S. and NATO have long maintained that thousands of Russian troops are fighting alongside separatists inside eastern Ukraine, and that the Russian government is obscuring not only the presence but also the deaths of its soldiers there. In March, NATO Deputy Secretary General Alexander Vershbow told a conference, "Russian leaders are less and less able to conceal the fact that Russian soldiers are fighting -- and dying -- in large numbers in eastern Ukraine."

Hence the extreme measures to get rid of the evidence. “The Russians are trying to hide their casualties by taking mobile crematoriums with them,” House Armed Services Committee Chairman Mac Thornberry told me. “They are trying to hide not only from the world but from the Russian people their involvement.”

Read more: http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-05-26/putin-burns-his-dead-to-hide-ukraine-aggression



I've always thought Putin's biggest fear was not the West, but Russian mothers.

44 replies, 4131 views

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Arrow 44 replies Author Time Post
Reply Russia Is Using Mobile Crematoriums to Hide Ukraine's Dead (Original post)
7962 May 2015 OP
Hulk May 2015 #1
SoapBox May 2015 #3
MBS May 2015 #4
Fournier May 2015 #26
SunSeeker May 2015 #2
Ned Flanders May 2015 #21
FrodosPet May 2015 #29
Judi Lynn May 2015 #5
NuclearDem May 2015 #9
7962 May 2015 #10
Cha May 2015 #23
Scootaloo May 2015 #28
NuclearDem May 2015 #34
Judi Lynn May 2015 #25
NuclearDem May 2015 #33
nichomachus May 2015 #6
yurbud May 2015 #12
Tempest May 2015 #7
7962 May 2015 #11
jakeXT May 2015 #13
yurbud May 2015 #14
Joe Chi Minh May 2015 #8
yurbud May 2015 #15
Tempest May 2015 #17
yurbud May 2015 #18
Judi Lynn May 2015 #22
Jesus Malverde May 2015 #27
blackspade May 2015 #16
yurbud May 2015 #19
blackspade May 2015 #20
Cha May 2015 #24
MattSh May 2015 #30
Cha May 2015 #31
newthinking May 2015 #32
NuclearDem May 2015 #35
LanternWaste May 2015 #43
7962 May 2015 #37
bemildred May 2015 #36
Bugenhagen May 2015 #38
wildbilln864 May 2015 #39
MattSh May 2015 #40
Sunlei May 2015 #41
MosheFeingold May 2015 #42
happyslug May 2015 #44

Response to 7962 (Original post)

Tue May 26, 2015, 06:11 PM

1. Brings back the memories of Buchenwald and Dachau....

How twisted and sick that is. BURNING the bodies of those they want to deny every died. Sounds pretty 1940ish to me.

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Response to Hulk (Reply #1)

Tue May 26, 2015, 06:34 PM

3. Exactly what I thought...

Man, that is just awful.

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Response to SoapBox (Reply #3)

Tue May 26, 2015, 06:48 PM

4. " " " n/t

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Response to Hulk (Reply #1)

Wed May 27, 2015, 01:15 AM

26. That's exactly what this unverifiable propaganda is supposed to do.

 

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Response to 7962 (Original post)

Tue May 26, 2015, 06:23 PM

2. Kinda like when Dubya wouldn't let the press see the coffins coming back from Iraq. nt

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #2)

Tue May 26, 2015, 09:15 PM

21. Thanks for the reminder

 

It drives me crazy noticing how many unconscionable things from Dubya have been forgotten, swept under the rug, whatever.

My personal two favorites are Jeff Gannon and Homeland Security's recommendation that EVERYONE immediately go out and buy duct tape and tarps. I couldn't find any info on that last one for a long time, even though I recall the warning. We cannot allow the bad guys to rewrite history and delete the things they did.

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Response to Ned Flanders (Reply #21)

Wed May 27, 2015, 01:34 AM

29. Duct tape and tarps are good to have handy in the home

And it has nothing to do with poison gas spread by terrorists.

So one should not AVOID having tarps and duct tape handy in the case of damage to your home. Especially if you have trees in the yard. One good wind storm, ice storm, wood rot, or insect infestation can quickly put holes in your windows, walls, and or ceiling.

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Response to 7962 (Original post)

Tue May 26, 2015, 06:55 PM

5. Just like the crematories the Colombian right-wing paramilitaries (death squads use).

As everyone knows by now, these death squads, as per so many testimonies by paramilitary members, have worked closely WITH the US funded and supported Colombian military.

Here's just one post placed here already:

Dreyfus Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #112

113. Colombian Paramilitaries used crematory ovens to kill their victims


I found today this hair-rising article about the pro Uribe Colombian Paramilitaries. As I know, Adolf Hitler used crematory ovens to dissapear death bodies. But I have never listened that he used it to kill their enemies or Jewish victims.

Next there is a segment of an article that appeared today in the Colombian Magazine Semana. At the end, you can see the link wher you can read all the rticle. Unfortunately is in Spanish. I had to translate myself the next segment. Just read it and I want you know that your taxes have helped to create all this terrifying history. Uribe, co-founder and main supporter of the paramilitaries, received from the US Government, 7 BILLION DOLLARS in 7 years. Most of this money was used for buying warfare and paying snitches; other money stopped in the Military Officer pockets. But an important portion of those BILLIONS, finished in the hands of the paramilitaries and druglords.

http://www.semana.com/noticias-nacion/paras-tambien-ten...

........Already inside the property, the former paramilitary described with details the property: “the first house was unfinished and beside there was like kind of deposit. Behind, like to 70 or 80 meters, it was working supposedly a brick factory. You could see 2 chimneys in the roof. In the entrance there was a first floor with a well trimmed and decorated garden. In the right side, there was one stairs and you descended like five meters. When you arrived at the end, you could see a huge oven, a kind used in industrial bakery.

The huge oven had a hermetic door, with the lockhandle outside. When the door closed, stayed incrusted in a wall metallic frame. It had very thick glasses, as armored. Outside there were 3 buttons. A red button was for starting to burn and the other two to graduate the temperature. Inside, the oven was completelly metallic and had like kind of a strong table with high temp resistances. Also under the table there were a kind of grills. To the sides of the table there were more high temp resistances. To the end of the room there were two electrical fans. They told us that we could not smoke. However, the air smelled like to pork chop burned. Only one person could fit inside the oven. The bodies were tied to the table. When the temperature was raising, the bodies were get up. A lot of people died before entering to the oven." According the calculations, in the week they were driven there between 10 and 20 people. And we had a procedure with them: "When they arrived with people in bags, we touched it so we realize if they were alive or dead" . And they told us: Leave them in the bags so they didn't throw away blood.

This is the legacy that Alvaro Uribe is leaving in Colombia.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=405&topic_id=33804&mesg_id=36212

[center]~ ~ ~[/center]
Posted by a wonderful DU'er:

Colombian Militia Boss: We Burned Hundreds of Bodies


BOGOTA – The erstwhile commander of Colombia’s right-wing militias said that his men systematically burned hundreds of their victims at the behest of officials and military brass who sought to downplay the level of violence in the Andean nation.

Salvatore Mancuso, extradited to the United States a year ago to face drug charges, made the admission while testifying via videolink from Washington.

A portion of the session, which featured the former head of the AUC militia federation answering questions submitted by families of the paramilitaries’ victims, was aired in Colombia on RCN television.

Mancuso said the burning of the bodies “was a favor that (now-deceased AUC founder) Carlos Castaño was doing for the authorities.”

He said the decision came after a meeting where politicians, senior military officers and other notables asked the AUC to dispose of victims’ bodies as a way of holding down the number of deaths that could be attributed to the militias.

More:
http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=333321&CategoryId=12393

http://metamorphosis.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5584551

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #5)

Tue May 26, 2015, 07:39 PM

9. Yes, we know, thank you.

 

Someone already covered the obligatory whataboutism necessary when discussing anything Russia does.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #9)

Tue May 26, 2015, 07:43 PM

10. Thanks for a good laugh! Jeeze.....

 

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #9)

Tue May 26, 2015, 11:41 PM

23. Really... can you believe it. Yes, it's terrible what's happened in the world.. but, we're talking

about fucking Russia and Putin... all that shite in the World Doesn't Excuse him. How about those posting "whouaboutisms" chiming in on what Russia is doing? Or is that OKAY?

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Response to Cha (Reply #23)

Wed May 27, 2015, 01:24 AM

28. Judi didn't make any "whataboutisms," she pointed out another regime doing something very similar.

 

Evidently acknowledging the perpetration of this crime pisses you off.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #28)

Wed May 27, 2015, 07:06 AM

34. ...otherwise known as a whataboutism.

 

Seriously, it's almost a textbook example of it.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #9)

Wed May 27, 2015, 12:54 AM

25. So why is it we're supposed to get hysterical thinking Russia uses them, which hasn't been proven,

but continue to look the other way when we KNOW they have been used by the Colombian paramilitaries, and, as testified in court, they have used them under orders from military leaders in US-funded, US-taxpayer supported Colombia? Why?

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Response to Judi Lynn (Reply #25)

Wed May 27, 2015, 07:03 AM

33. Uh, because the OP is about Russia.

 

And I can pretty well guarantee you people disgusted by Russia doing it are disgusted by the US and Colombia doing it.

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Response to 7962 (Original post)

Tue May 26, 2015, 07:00 PM

6. Not only that

I heard they're pulling babies out of incubators.

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Response to nichomachus (Reply #6)

Tue May 26, 2015, 08:32 PM

12. that's the gist of it. this time the PR machine is selling a World War

Hopefully no one is buying

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Response to 7962 (Original post)

Tue May 26, 2015, 07:02 PM

7. Where is the evidence?

"He said he could not disclose details of classified information, but insisted that he believed the reports. "

Did he also believe the intelligence that said Saddam had WMD?

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Response to Tempest (Reply #7)

Tue May 26, 2015, 07:44 PM

11. Well, its not John McCain reporting it either. Its says "classified".

 

Probably because revealing HOW they know would be revealing more than that.

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Response to Tempest (Reply #7)

Tue May 26, 2015, 08:32 PM

13. Curve Ball said there are 18 mobile labs

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Response to Tempest (Reply #7)

Tue May 26, 2015, 08:33 PM

14. that sentence alone is a big tip off it's pure bullshit.

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Response to 7962 (Original post)

Tue May 26, 2015, 07:10 PM

8. The scoundrels!

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Response to 7962 (Original post)

Tue May 26, 2015, 08:37 PM

15. we should compile a list of all these PR stories that turned out to be pure bull shit

And post it in a reply every time this crap is posted. I feel stupider for having even seen the title.

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Response to yurbud (Reply #15)

Tue May 26, 2015, 08:53 PM

17. Do you have that much time?

The list would be never ending.

Like this for example:

https://consortiumnews.com/2015/01/24/nyt-is-lost-in-its-ukraine-propaganda/

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Response to Tempest (Reply #17)

Tue May 26, 2015, 08:59 PM

18. that's a good one on just Ukraine

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Response to Tempest (Reply #17)

Tue May 26, 2015, 11:13 PM

22. Great reading this article. Outstanding journalist. Thank you. n/t

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Response to yurbud (Reply #15)

Wed May 27, 2015, 01:16 AM

27. DUZY...nt

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Response to 7962 (Original post)

Tue May 26, 2015, 08:40 PM

16. The Ukraine reporting is just getting cooky.

Mobile Crematoriums? Really?

The M$M is really ginning up this conflict for the MIC.

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Response to blackspade (Reply #16)

Tue May 26, 2015, 09:01 PM

19. I'm hoping they're getting so sloppy because it's flop sweat

They know we aren't buying so they are throwing more and more spaghetti at the wall.

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Response to yurbud (Reply #19)

Tue May 26, 2015, 09:08 PM

20. Uh oh...

"... they are throwing more and more spaghetti at the wall."


His noodlly appendage won't like that!

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Response to 7962 (Original post)

Tue May 26, 2015, 11:43 PM

24. Oh, I see the Putin apologists have tried to distract on your thread, 7962. Sickening.

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Response to Cha (Reply #24)

Wed May 27, 2015, 02:16 AM

30. Damn, that freedom of speech thing is so inconvenient sometimes, isn't it?

Sorry, but this is a public internet forum. Commenting is open to all who are registered.

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Response to MattSh (Reply #30)

Wed May 27, 2015, 02:22 AM

31. Yeah, free to say anything you damn please.. Poor Putin.. It's so obvious.

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Response to MattSh (Reply #30)

Wed May 27, 2015, 03:48 AM

32. Are you or have you ever been a commun... um, I mean putinist?!

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Response to MattSh (Reply #30)

Wed May 27, 2015, 07:08 AM

35. Yes, Cha's post represents an attack on freedom of speech

 



You've got to be kidding me.

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Response to MattSh (Reply #30)

Wed May 27, 2015, 10:06 AM

43. I don't think anyone has implied otherwise

 

I don't think anyone has implied otherwise (I can however, understand the rhetorical convenience of pretending otherwise).

Criticizing melodramatic stupidity is hardly denying that same stupidity-- two wholly separate concepts...

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Response to Cha (Reply #24)

Wed May 27, 2015, 07:24 AM

37. Only reason I posted was the Representatives arent wingnuts.

 

Democratic Rep Moulton represents that hotbed of Tea Party extremism, Massachusetts!!

And who would put this past Putin? The same folks who were buying his line that no Russians were inside Ukraine. Or they got lost. Or were on vacation!

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Response to 7962 (Original post)

Wed May 27, 2015, 07:13 AM

36. What transparent horseshit.

Somebody is getting desperate all right.

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Response to 7962 (Original post)

Wed May 27, 2015, 07:54 AM

38. That's the dumbest damned thing I've read in ages.

It makes less sense than the Kuwait baby incubator story.

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Response to 7962 (Original post)

Wed May 27, 2015, 08:04 AM

39. hmmm.

 

reminds me of Iraq's alleged mobile weapons labs.

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Response to 7962 (Original post)

Wed May 27, 2015, 08:18 AM

40. Careful. It's time for a...



Geez, the anti-Russian propaganda has been dead for a while. Seems like it's starting up again. Wonder what the neo-cons are planning now?

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Response to 7962 (Original post)

Wed May 27, 2015, 08:32 AM

41. If they have evidence, sat. photos, ground photos/videos-release the pictures!

There has to be physical evidence, even if putin uses his gas to cremate his dead soldiers. they aren't vaporized. There are piles of ash somewhere.

Satellites can image a persons face, there has to be clear evidence-release it.

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Response to 7962 (Original post)

Wed May 27, 2015, 09:58 AM

42. There's an old Ukrainian joke my uncle-in-law used to tell me

Q: Why did the Ukrainians fight the Russians before the Nazis?



A: Business before pleasure.


Go watch Fiddler On the Roof. Nothing has changed in 120 years.

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Response to 7962 (Original post)

Wed May 27, 2015, 11:39 AM

44. Do Russia have "Mobile Crematoriums" I suspect the answer is YES

 

Last edited Wed May 27, 2015, 12:34 PM - Edit history (1)

But I can say the same about other countries, including the US. Dead bodies are the result of most conflicts and disposing of those bodies is a function ALL ARMIES HAVE HAD TO DEAL WITH. Most armies dealt with it with mobile burial units, prior to mechanization bodies of men to dig a huge trench and throw the bodies into the trench (if trenches already exist, to fill in those trenches with bodies and cover over the bodies).

Generally armies have TWO sets of Burial units, one for their own soldiers and another for anyone else. You hear of the first type all of the time, they are the ones bring bodies back home. The other type is often ignored for people on the home front do not care to hear of them.

Unlike the Western Front during WWI, the Eastern Front was fairly mobile. Thus you saw a lot of dead bodies without pre existing trenches. This mobility was provided by the horse, so you had a lot of dead horses to get rid of also. During WWII this problem reappeared, for both the Germans AND the Russians still used a lot of horses in combat. Russia, like many western nations, did not unhorse they last horse units till the early 1960s (and maintain several horse units, but all below Divisional and Regimental strengths to this day to guard and patrol certain areas of their borders not otherwise patrol-able).

On top of this horses, to this day, are an important part of Russian Agriculture and thus would be killed off in huge numbers in any conventional war and will have to be disposed of. I hate to say this given the above having a mobile Crematorium makes sense, it is quicker then using back hoes to dig trenches to bury the dead (both people and horses). These are probably attached at Army or Army Corp Level not divisional level. Taking care of the dead is one of the unpleasant things an army has to do. Thus I fully suspect "Mobile Crematoriums" are among the troops the Russians have on their side of the Ukrainian Border. Being troops, they occasionally burn something in them to keep in practice.

Thus, YES, Russian has "Mobile Crematoriums" in the area. Now, the loss of life in the fighting in the Ukraine has NOT been that high. If used, most likely to burn dead horses, cows, sheep etc the Rebels could not dispose of themselves (The fighting is in a heavy agricultural area of the world). The actual area in rebellion is a Rural Coal mining area, and if it is like similar area in the US, the coal miners tend to own small plots of land near the mine where they grow crops for themselves and their families. On such small farms (Less then 50 acres), horses, even in the US, considered more cost effective then tractors. Now, most of the better farm lands are in large farms (Either Collectives or whatever succeeded the Soviet Era Collectives in that part of the Ukraine) those would be mechanized, but the smaller farms would not be.

Side note: The Best Farm Land in the Ukraine is is the WESTERN UKRAINE, where Russian is rarely spoken and the heart of the Anti-Russian movement in the Ukraine. The Eastern Ukraine is still agricultural but NOT to the extent of the Western Ukraine.

After the breakup of the Soviet Union, farmland in newly independent Ukraine was divided among villagers, acre by acre, creating a patchwork of agricultural endeavors that are often inefficient or unprofitable. Some land is rented to fruit growers, grain operators or large-scale farming businesses. Some locals work small plots on their own. Some acreage sits fallow, stuck in legal limbo after the owner has died.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/28/business/ukraine-faces-hurdles-in-restoring-its-farming-legacy.html?_r=0



The breakup of the old collectives has reduced productively (Much like the original collectivization reduced productively). The reason for this is simple, the support system for the collectives have not adjusted to these small farms, and the small farms have not adjusted to the distribution system. People are working to bring back the large farms of the collectives:

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/business/bloomberg-ukraine-farms-are-takeover-targets-for-private-equitys-bleyzer-387910.html

But the most productive farms are the smallest farms if you go by total production per acre as opposed to one crop per acres (Smaller farms often plant three or more crops in the same field, reduced productivity of each on a per acre basis, but an over all increase of total crops per acre, thus in the days of the Soviet Union, the small fields maintained by the peasants independent of the collective itself, were must more productive then the collective and an important part of Soviet food production).

On the other hand on a per person basis or per single crop basis, the larger collectives were more productive and for these reasons even farms in the US have had to go to larger farms (Smaller farms can produce more food, but the larger mechanized farms can produce more food per WORKER, thus a greater return on a per man hour basis). Thus the areas were small farms survive, even in the US, is in areas close to where such farmers can commute to and from other work (In my area of Western Pennsylvania, within driving distance to the Steel Mills in Pittsburgh or Johnstown or the various coal mines to the area or other employment). Where you can not commute to work, such small farms are either abandoned or taken over by someone to make a larger farm (And this tendency to even larger farms has increased since the 1950s).

I bring this up for the Eastern Ukraine is a Coal Mining Area, thus you will have more "Small Farmers" whose main source of Income is Coal Mining. These tend to be very productive on a total crops per acre basis, but not on a per man hour basis or even a one crop per acre basis. This is similar to the situation in the US Today.

For example in small farms (less then 50 acres) you will see more hand hoeing and less chemicals to get rid of weeds, more hand harvesting then mechanical harvesting for it is easy to pick beans and NOT disturb the Corn plant the bean is climbing on, or the pumpkins growing below both and among their roots, the pumpkins and corn can be harvested by hand later on. In larger mechanized harvesting, it is better to have to handle only one crop per field, thus the above three crops have to be in three different fields (And the beans tend to be "bush beans" not "Pole beans", the later is favored by small farmers for it planted among the corn, will climb the corn stock, it is disfavored among larger farmers for Pole Beans have to be picked by hand, while Bush beans can be picked by machine.

Given the basic economics of farming today, small farms, and but this I mean farms with less then 50 acres, can NOT pay for themselves except as housing for someone working elsewhere. Thus most such small farms tend to be near urban areas and the value of such land is four to ten times what land is worth further away. Thus the further away from what the US Census Bureau calls "Urban Centers" the less valuable the land.

Side note: The same can be seen in the US today. California has extensive large farms, but most such farms no one lives on. The employees working such farms live in "Urban Clusters" that these farms surround, thus when it comes to US Census data, these are "Urban Counties" for most people live in these "Urban Clusters" not on the farms that surround them. In a reverse of what happens in Western Pennsylvania (Travel from the Farms to the Urban centers) in Those "Urban" Countries people commute from the "Urban Clusters" to the Farms to work.

Most California Counties are "Urban Counties" under the rules defining such counties as "Urban" for most people in those counties living in urban areas OR Urban Clusters, as those terms are defined by the US Census Bureau:

?itok=90BA1lDJ

https://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/eop/cea/factsheets-reports/strengthening-the-rural-economy/the-current-state-of-rural-america

Even in the US most Rural Income is off the farm:

?itok=SwVevu1O

Please note, some of the "Off Farm" income, has to do with the increase mechanization of Farming. i.e. less breeding of horses which could be done on the farm, but increase use of specialized equipment that needs off farm support. In the Grain fields of the mid west, more and more of the planting and harvesting is done by outside contractors who go from farm to farm with the heavy machinery to plant and then harvest as oppose to the farmer doing that work. This would be "Off Farm" employment replacing "on farm" employment. The Ukraine has to respond to the fact US farms mechanized heavily starting in the 1950s and becoming bigger and even more mechanized since the 1950s. This brought down the price of grain and other per acre crops do to increase productively on a per man hour basis. Small farms just can not compete with these low prices, so even if more productive on a total crop basis, you can not raise a family on such income so unless the farm is close enough to commute to some other employment, it ends up abandoned or sold to a larger farm.

Another area of the growth of Rural off the Farm income is in housing. Prior to Mechanization it was common for farm hands to live on the farm with the farmer (often in the Farmer's house, thus they large size). Today, most such farm hands live in the nearby Urban Cluster and thus housing is no longer "On the farm Income" (if it was counted at all) but "Off the farm income" (Please note most such on the farm housing ended with WWII, some lingered on but I really have not heard of any since the 1950s) .

This increase in "Rural non-Farm Income" in the form of Housing is much like the "increase" in GDP do to the fact women reentered the work force in the 1970s. Were these women unproductive in the 1950s and 1960s? NO, but what they did was given no value and thus had no affect on the GDP. When they quit staying at home and join the work force, this increase GDP numbers, even if the amount of work they did was the same as when they stayed at home (and the increase in having to eat out due to no time to prepare a meal also increased GDP numbers, even if the amount of work to prepare the meal was the same in both cases for what the woman did at home was given no value while the same work done in the restaurant was given some value).

The founder of establishing what we now call Gross Domestic Product (GDP) admitted when he developed it in the 1930s to be a "Bad" way to estimate actual production in the National Economy, but he could NOT come up with a better way to calculate the numbers. It is still the best way to look at these numbers, but you have understand the short comings of such numbers. I bring this up for you are seeing similar situation in the Eastern Ukraine as in Rural US, Small farmers tend to be near Urban Areas, where the owners of such small farms commute to and from to work, Thus they are both Rural Residents and Urban Unionized employees. The Eastern Ukraine tends to be a low industry area with most of their "Wealth" tied in in the more productive farms of the Eastern Ukraine. Thus the split in the Ukraine, with a large Russian Speaking Rural population in the Eastern Ukraine, with a large Russia Speaking Urban areas opposed to the Ukrainian speaking Eastern Ukraine, with the middle of the Ukraine low population large farms with low population compared to the Eastern and Western parts of the Ukraine (The Southern Ukraine is similar to the Eastern Ukraine, but it is based on trade via the Black sea as oppose to mining or Industry as is the case with the Eastern Ukraine).

The more I study the Ukraine the more I see Putin's proposal of a Federation may be the best way to handle the Ukraine. The Ukraine is a country going in at least three different directions based on which area that part of the Ukraine sees as they main trading partner. The Eastern Ukraine see Russia as they main Trading Partner, The Western Ukraine see the EU as they main trading partner. The Southern Ukraine see Turkey and Greece as they main trading partners (and given the situation in Greece and Turkey, tends to turn to Russia for support).

It took a while, but sooner or later when it comes to the Ukraine, that the Western and Eastern Ukraine trade with other people more then each other comes up and with it the concept the Federation may be the best option for the Ukraine.

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