Witnesses: Semi-automatic gunfire dominated biker shootout

[Judi Lynn]

Source: Associated Press

Witnesses: Semi-automatic gunfire dominated biker shootout
By EMILY SCHMALL, Associated Press | June 6, 2015 | Updated: June 6, 2015 3:59pm

WACO, Texas (AP) — First came a few pistol shots, several witnesses said, then a barrage of rifle fire during the shootout last month at a Waco restaurant favored by bikers. But authorities still have not said how many of the dead and wounded were the result of police fire.

Police have identified only one assault weapon, a semi-automatic gun that fires high-powered ammunition, among the firearms confiscated from bikers, and that was found in a locked car after the shooting ended. But several witnesses — at least three of them veterans with weapons training — told The Associated Press that semi-automatic gunfire dominated the May 17 shootout that left nine dead and 18 wounded.

"I heard, 'pop, pop,' small caliber, and then a rapid succession of shots from what sounded to me like an assault rifle," said William English, a former Marine and Iraq war veteran who was approaching the front door of the Twin Peaks restaurant for a meeting of biker clubs.

. . .

Waco police have said they returned fire after being shot at, and call the witnesses' depictions of events incorrect. While those with pending charges may benefit by blaming authorities, police have declined to release detailed reports from that day and say they are still awaiting ballistic reports.


Read more: http://www.chron.com/news/texas/article/Witnesses-Semi-automatic-gunfire-dominated-biker-6311160.php

[pnwmom]

1. Interesting, but doesn't really tell us anything.

Both police and civilians can and do carry sem-automatic rifles.

[Duckhunter935]

3. No the part that is interesting and you seem to miss

Is this....

Police have identified only one assault weapon, a semi-automatic gun that fires high-powered ammunition, among the firearms confiscated from bikers, and that was found in a locked car after the shooting ended.

So more than likely the semi-auto fire came from the police.

[Lizzie Poppet]

9. I'd be surprised if virtually all the weapons involved weren't semi-automatic.

Not all semi-automatic rifles, mind you...

[Duckhunter935]

11. Yes, I stand corrected

You are right, it is about the rifles

[Enthusiast]

59. Me too.

People really should learn what the term semi-automatic means.

[pnwmom]

22. No, I didn't miss that. It doesn't prove anything.

Just because police only found one assault weapon doesn't mean only one was used. The police weren't there at the moment shooting began, and observers report hearing more than one.

[Duckhunter935]

23. as far as the reporting, yes the police were there

as they had prior notice and were out in force. They even talked to the Twin Peaks owner before the stuff hit the fan.

[pnwmom]

29. Anything could have happened. But when we had a similar clash in a park near us

the bikers turned out to have brought their own semi-automatics. It doesn't seem unlikely that this happened in Waco, too.

People who fight for the right to own and carry guns also usually fight for the right to own and carry semi-automatic handguns.

[Duckhunter935]

30. Yes, I carry a rifle on my bike all the time

Sorry if I just do not believe you. I am sure many of them had hand guns, knives and other types of weapons though.

[pnwmom]

34. What part do you not believe?

This is a newspaper account of a fight that took place at a nearby state park, where families were picnicking. The bikers were picnicking, too, until they weren't. And they were carrying guns, including at least one semi-automatic.

You know there are civilians who own semi-automatics. So why is it so hard for you to believe that members of biker gangs might own some, too?

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Cousin-of-Sammamish-park-shooting-victim-charged-886983.php

The Lake Sammamish shootout happened about 9 p.m. on a Saturday night and left two dead: Yang Keovongphet, 33, and Justin M. Cunningham, 30. Three others were wounded and another person was hospitalized after being beaten.

A park ranger made a distress call after the first shots were fired, near unassociated wedding and graduation parties.

SNIP

The following day, a semi-automatic handgun was found in a tall grass area near where Yang Keovongphet's group had been, investigators said.

His widow allegedly told police that David Keowongphet was a member of the "Asian Boyz" gang and was firing shots into the air.

The woman told police she received a phone call from David Keowongphet the day after the shooting, "asking if everything was cool," according to investigators. She responded that his group had killed her husband.

SNIP

[Duckhunter935]

36. well since this is your initial post

Both police and civilians can and do carry sem-automatic rifles.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141111759#post1

That is what this sub thread is about-RIFLES

Even the story you just posted said nothing about semi-automatic rifles.

Now I am sure they had semi-automatic pistols but you are the one that said they had rifles, not me. Am I right about that?

[pnwmom]

38. To the victim of gun violence, whether the bullet

came from a semi-automatic handgun or semi-automatic rifle doesn't make a hell of a lot of difference.

The one person I know who owns a semi-automatic rifle also owns at least one semi-automatic handgun, plus other guns. Gun lovers apparently like to collect.

As you know, in post #23, the one you just posted a response to, I said:

"People who fight for the right to own and carry guns also usually fight for the right to own and carry semi-automatic handguns."

And the article linked at the OP says only that the police reported finding a "semi-automatic weapon" -- not specifying whether it was a rifle or handgun. One witness thought it sounded more like a rifle to him, but that's all we know now. Not much.

In that context, for you to quibble about whether a gun was a semi-automatic rifle or semi-automatic handgun seems like hair-splitting. Either one could have been used by a cop or by a civilian, so it doesn't matter which was used -- we still don't know who used the semi-automatic, if one was used.

[Duckhunter935]

40. those goalposts should be getting heavy by now

And the article linked at the OP says only that the police reported finding a "semi-automatic weapon" -- not specifying whether it was a rifle or handgun. One witness thought it sounded more like a rifle to him, but that's all we know now. Not much.

If you are going to quote the story in the OP, please do not selectively edit it, that really comes close to being dishonest, don't you think?
Here is the full citation....

Police have identified only one assault weapon, a semi-automatic gun that fires high-powered ammunition, among the firearms confiscated from bikers, and that was found in a locked car after the shooting ended.

Funny how you selectively left out "assault" and "high-powered ammunition"
Now as far as I know, assault weapons are a common reference to a scary looking rifle, not pistols. Rifles also use a higher power ammunition than pistols.

So please change things and pass them off as being true, the print is right there and you can not get away with posting things like that and not be challenged.

[pnwmom]

41. Your efforts at distraction continue to fail.

It doesn't matter whether the police found a semi-automatic handgun or rifle at the scene. Either one could have been used by the police OR a civilian. The fact that a semi-automatic gun may have been used does not increase the likelihood that police did most of the shooting, or that the police instigated the shooting.

We still don't have the facts that would tell us what happened.

[Duckhunter935]

42. too bad you were caught

and just can't stop digging, please just stop already.

This was your post, so own it.

pnwmom
Interesting, but doesn't really tell us anything.
Both police and civilians can and do carry sem-automatic rifles.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141111759#post1

[pnwmom]

43. And what I said was true, despite your efforts to distract.

And so was my subsequent statement about semi-automatic handguns.

Both police and civilians can use semi-automatic rifles. And both police and civilians can use semi-automatic handguns.
Any particular weapon could be used by the police or by a civilian. We don't know yet which guns were used or who used them.

[Jesus Malverde]

45. The swat team was at the restaurant and the responded in seconds.

Your arguments make no sense.

Why so long to release the autopsy reports? It's been weeks.

[Lizzie Poppet]

60. Actually, it quite possibly could matter a great deal.

Handgun rounds are generally considerably less powerful than rifle rounds. A wound from a handgun is thus more likely to be survivable than one from a rifle.

[Duckhunter935]

37. keep moving them, lol

[Sparhawk60]

71. When Have the Police Ever Lied??

"So more than likely the semi-auto fire came from the police. "


But the cops already said the semi-auto fire came from the bikers. If the cops said it, it must be true, after all, when have the cops ever lied?

/Sarcasm off

[hobbit709]

2. I wonder whose bullets will be found in the bodies.

Some of the biker types I know say the parking lot was full of cops in plain clothes before the fracas even started.

[Strelnikov_]

32. Same kind as what killed Kennedy n/t

[Jesus Malverde]

46. The SWAT team was on site.

and there were other plain clothes officers who happened to be shopping at the same mall and responded "heroically" according to the waco pd spokesman.

[hobbit709]

48. There were at least 30 undercover cops there BEFORE anything started.

[hobbit709]

49. "Happened to be shopping at the mall" in full regalia no less.

[Comrade Grumpy]

4. Will this turn out to be a police massacre?

[Chemisse]

7. That is a very ugly possibility.

And there is nothing he-says, she-says about the types of bullets found in bodies.

[Strelnikov_]

66. More I read, more it is looking that way to me

The scenario of a fight between a couple of bikers, leading to a few shots fired from a pistol outside, then leading to the nervous cops opening up with AR-15's tracks with the snippets of information we are getting. The cops sealing and delaying the release of information is another tell.

I don't think they set out to massacre. I think it will turn out to be another example of how things can go bad so quickly with the militarized cops of today. Used to be the National Guard when things like this went down.

[valerief]

5. Praise the Lord they had their god-given rights to own and use a

semi-automatic gun, as has been granted by the Second Amendment to the Bible. A human life is not worth taking away this sacred right.

Right?









Right?????

[sarisataka]

6. By "they"

do you mean the bikers for the police? There seems to be some dispute

[valerief]

20. Americans!

[petronius]

8. It's a confusingly-written article: they make this point of "semi-automatic," but

I wonder if the distinction they're really trying to draw is between rifles and handguns. In that case, it seems there would be cause for concern, since the police would be more likely to be the ones with rifles and the bikers the ones with the (concealable) handguns. So if it was a "few pistol shots" followed by a 'barrage of rifle fire" then it suggests that it was the police doing the firing. But it sounds like that's the part the police are calling inaccurate, and witnesses--to sounds no less--aren't that reliable.

Hopefully, they kept careful track of all the firearms, and will match them up carefully...

[Lizzie Poppet]

10. Exactly. The "semi-automatic" part is irrelevant (I bet most all the involved guns were semi-auto)

But if rifle bullets are discovered in large quantity, that will almost certainly point to the police.

[Duckhunter935]

13. Yep, if rifle bullets are recovered in any quantity

more than likely it will be from those highly trained and qualified police officers.

[petronius]

16. Perhaps the reporter is a graduate of the recent EGS-sponsored workshop

Last edited Sat Jun 6, 2015, 09:13 PM - Edit history (1)

on firearms-related journalism...

I see a careful repetition of "semi-automatic" and "assault," but a certain lack of clarity as to what those mean or why they might matter. For example, I hope that this is not exactly what the ATF person really said:

"Jennifer Cicolani, of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, noted that a semi-automatic gun can shoot more bullets in less time than a small-caliber weapon."

[Duckhunter935]

18. I sent asking for information a while back and this is

what I received on that....

Hi Brian,
We are still in the early stages of building the program but we will be sharing the speakers involved on our website within the next month.

I hope you'll check back then for the information.

Best
Kate

[Duckhunter935]

19. Ouch, that is just painful

"Jennifer Cicolani, of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, noted that a semi-automatic gun can shoot more bullets in less time than a small-caliber weapon."

[cstanleytech]

24. *scratches head* Excuse my gun ignorance but when did caliber dictate that a gun was semi automatic

or not??

[Duckhunter935]

26. There is no ignorance in your question

I am flummoxed from that quoted response. Caliber has no bearing on that.

[7962]

21. Oh good lord. A BATF rep actually said that? What a joke nt

[Lizzie Poppet]

61. What an unreasonable expectation!

How could anyone possibly expect an executive with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms to have at least a rudimentary knowledge of, um...firearms?

Maybe she really knows her booze and cigs...

[7962]

62. HA!! Never thought of it that way!

[maindawg]

12. It was a set up

The first shot fired was an undercover cop. Then it became a massacre by the police.
There is video.

[Duckhunter935]

14. OK

[AngryAmish]

15. You may think this us funny, but a lot of people think this.

Let's wait for the facts.

[Duckhunter935]

17. Oh, I will

Should beeasy since you say there is video of it, Where is this video and who took it?

[cstanleytech]

25. Interesting, mind posting a link to the video then please that your referring to?

[Duckhunter935]

27. I am sure it

Will be posted here any minute. Wonder if he heard about that on the internets

[Jesus Malverde]

52. There are two videos one from twin peaks and one from don carlos.

The don carlos video shows the parking lot. The city attorney of waco has filed to withhold both videos from the public.

[Duckhunter935]

53. Oh, I am sure there is surveillance videos

the original subthread post says there is a video that shows an undercover police officer start the shooting. I would be surprised if the detail is there.

[Jesus Malverde]

55. The video from don carlos likely shows much of the shooting.

Whether the original shooter was a UC has not been alleged other than here.

http://www.agingrebel.com has had pretty good coverage on the issue that contradicts much the police narratives.

There is a good possibility that most of those killed and wounded were shot by the police, much less then that the 170 being arrested, have been given due process.

[Duckhunter935]

56. I agree, I think the police are the ones

that will be found to have killed the majority. I do not think they can stall and hide forever.

[maindawg]

50. Heres a video

This is an attorney explaining what happened

[Renew Deal]

51. That video doesn't prove anything

The video is from one of the bikers. It didn't capture anything that happened. But he is wearing a how tie, so that's something.

[cstanleytech]

57. Ya well that is a video all right, purely an opinion based video but a video nonetheless.

How about a video that was taken at the scene during the shooting, do you have a link to that?

[maindawg]

63. The guy in the video

said that there is video from surveillance cameras in several locations. I wonder why none has been made available? Dont you think the news people have asked for it? With what we now know about how these police agencies operate , I am inclined to believe that the police planned this mass murder. This is 1st degree murder.
When the massacre happened everyone assumed that the bikers were somehow to blame. Many people hate bikers anyway and took advantage of the opportunity to bash them. To condemn them. I was hesitant even though I am no fan of motorcycle gangs. I am not particularly partial even to motor cycle people. I hate the loud roar that wrecks my serenity. I play musci and I can tell you that bikers are not a good audience.

But I am more worried about the militarization of the police. I dont want to live in a country where everyone is corrupt and we have authoritarian assholes bullying the population. The police are out of control.

[cstanleytech]

64. Very good questions but have such been confirmed to exist?

[maindawg]

65. yes

the restraint next door said their video was confiscated by the police.

[DallasNE]

28. That Is How Kent State Got Started

An undercover FBI agent pulled out a gun and in a struggle it discharged and then the Guard turned and started firing in the direction of the gunshot.

They should have all of the spent shell casings and that would tell them what type of weapon was used. If they had evidence that the bikers did most of the shooting that information would have been released long ago. The fact that nothing has been released points toward the police doing most of the firing, one would suspect.

[pnwmom]

39. The bikers shouldn't have been doing any of the shooting. It's not their job. n/t

[cstanleytech]

58. I am willing give them the benefit of doubt for the moment.

Look how long it takes for them process a small crime scene so it stands to reason that a larger scene will take more time, its simple logic.
I am also not to concerned for the delay because I am willing to bet that the ACLU is keeping an eye on this case as well as other related civil rights groups.

[RandySF]

31. ..

[1Greensix]

33. Autopsy reports

I wonder what the autopsy reports will say when retrieved bullets are matched to police weapons. Now that Texas has become an open carry state many of those shooting May have been Defending themselves against rogue, trigger happy cops. If I had been there and charged I certainly would use self-defense as my only defense. Second Amendment.

[Fred Sanders]

35. The Rest of the World is rightfully frightened by the runaway gun killing in America and the runaway

bloodlust of one of two parties who will control a trillion dollar a year military.

America has indeed become the greatest threat to the planet, which, by the way, is occupied by more than just Americans.

[Recursion]

67. Huh? We're less violent than a majority of countries

We're 112th out of 218 by homicide rate. Ours is 4.7 per 100,000. The median is 4.8, which is Yemen's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

[Jesus Malverde]

68. Interesting

I understand that violent crime is actually at historic lows in the United States. A large percentage of gun deaths in the U.S. are suicides.

[Recursion]

69. Both are true, though the drop in homicide has been pretty consistent worldwide

That is, we're much lower in absolute terms than we were 20 years ago, but we're roughly in the same relative spot worldwide now as then.

There are in general two gun suicides for every gun homicide, which is why I think any gun control plan that doesn't put suicide front and center is just a show piece, personally...

[Jesus Malverde]

70. I've seen some provocative articles linking homicide to the use of leaded gas...nt

[Sunlei]

44. read in news stories many police, Fed. police already there, like they were ready for action.

[Sunlei]

54. thanks for that video (deleted below mine) I guess we will see that parking lot video once police

have to release it, someday.