Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

swag

(26,572 posts)
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 02:42 PM Jun 2015

This message was self-deleted by its author

This message was self-deleted by its author (swag) on Tue Jun 9, 2015, 12:22 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

10 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies

C_U_L8R

(49,531 posts)
1. Paging Dick Cheney. Paging Dick Cheney. Oh Dick Cheney.
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 02:47 PM
Jun 2015

This ought to be good. Need to stock up on more popcorn.

irisblue

(37,923 posts)
2. when Rumsfield dies, I will grave dance
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 02:47 PM
Jun 2015

Cheney & him.

shenmue

(38,605 posts)
8. I'm bringing a cake
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 03:09 PM
Jun 2015


Chocolate.

unblock

(56,262 posts)
3. i'm willing to believe that he thought the democracy pretext was rubbish.
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 02:49 PM
Jun 2015

i mean, i'm sure he knew *all* the public pretexts for war were rubbish.

but obviously, he wanted war for other reasons, and participated eagerly in lobbying for it, so who really cares what he thought about the propaganda.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
4. I remember that time period, Rumsfield OPPOSED elections after we took Iraq
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 02:52 PM
Jun 2015

What Rumsfield wanted was a Congress of Tribal leaders to replace Saddam's government, but the Shiite Religious leaders OPPOSED such a Government and demanded elections. The reason for the difference was the Shiites knew they would win any election for they are the majority in Iraq, Rumsfield knew such a Shiite Congress would NOT submit to US imposed rules and thus opposes such elections.

The Sunni minority, which had supported Saddam, boycotted those first elections (and it was accused that the US occupation government manipulated the election results so the Shiites fell just share of an absolute Majority, the rest were the Sunni Arabs and the Kurds). Subsequent election the Sunni participated in.

What was quickly "forgotten" was the US did NOT want such elections, but the refusal of the Shiites to accept any other form of Government became to clear to deny. i.e. the Shiites forces the US to go with Elections, elections Rumsfield opposed for he preferred to from a government of Tribal leaders, that he could bribe and otherwise manipulate.

Thus Rumsfield has been consistent, he oppose Democracy after we took Iraq and thinks it was a mistake when it occurred under the US Occupation.

Paper from 2003 on Iraqi Tribes and how the US was trying to use them to rule Iraq:

http://www.cfr.org/iraq/iraq-role-tribes/p7681

Tribes were strengthen in the 1920s by the British, weakened by the Baath Party in the 1940s to 1970s, then Strengthen again by Saddam in the 1990s after the disaster of the Iraq-Iran War and then Desert Storm and then the subsequent embargo on things to and from Iraq. At the same time the main power of the Tribes, their control of farm land, decline as most Iraqis moved to urban areas.

Side note on tribes: The "Kham" is the lowest and most important part of a tribe, it is the collection of males that are related, through the male line, five generation. This has survived the best of the various sub divisions of the traditional tribes during the last 50-100 years. Males members of a Kham can number into the hundreds, but mostly less then 50 males. Given the tendency to marry cousins, these Khams can survive for generations for each generation ends up being decedents of the same Grand Fathers, let alone the same Great Great Grandfathers. Thus these Khams can last for Centuries.

The foundation of the tribe is referred to as the khams, which is the greater extended family. The family is linked by all male offspring who share the same great-great grandfather.

The lowest level of the structure is the bayt, which consists of a single extended family with members numbering in the hundreds.

A group of bayts form a clan, known as the fakdh. Each fakdh maintains its own chief, family name, and land that is relative to a specific village or town.

A cluster of clans constitute a tribal organization or 'ashira. The 'ashira enjoys a high level of unity primarily due to the relative power that its sheikh or the sheikh's bayt holds and due to the geographic proximity of the clans of which it is comprised.

A confederacy of tribes is classified as a qabila. Although the qabila is an alliance of several tribes, it is still regarded as a tribe.

http://www.terrorismanalysts.com/pt/index.php/pot/article/view/2/html


It was the tribal forces above the Kham level that Rumsfield wanted to use, but it was denied to him for while the members of the tribe still held their tribal membership important, they tended to hold their religious leaders almost as high (and in many cases higher). When the Shiite Leadership demanded elections, the Shiite Tribal leadership followed suit and refused to form a council of the tribes. Thus Rumsfield had to "Embrace" elections for that was the only way to get a local non occupation government for Iraq.

Angry Dragon

(36,693 posts)
5. I thought this was already posted in LBN
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 02:54 PM
Jun 2015

swag

(26,572 posts)
6. If so, I'm sorry. I'm sure a worthy mod will dedupe this situation.
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 02:57 PM
Jun 2015

elleng

(141,926 posts)
7. Thanks, swag, for noting prominently the role of the PNAC 'clowns'
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 02:57 PM
Jun 2015

in bush's iraq adventure. I do suspect, and may be mistaken, that he was unaware of that group's interest in disrupting the world. Worldwide democracy was not, of course, PNAC's goal.

lark

(26,113 posts)
9. Most of them do this.
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 03:17 PM
Jun 2015

They take untenable positions while in power just to keep their party and it's top person in power, knowing all along they are wrong. They don't care about right or wrong, they only care about more money for them and their ilk. Then, when they leave office, they announce they didn't really mean it then and knew all along that their position was foolish or destrustive. Gramm, Rumsfeld, and many others have done this. These are just more self-serving lies. They did it then for the love of money and are doing it now to enhance their reputations and get even more $$.

calimary

(90,790 posts)
10. Doing it now in a well-coordinated and broad-based attempt to rewrite the history of the last
Tue Jun 9, 2015, 03:21 PM
Jun 2015

GOP "administration." I was gonna say "God-forsaken" but I can think of SEVERAL GOP administrations that qualify for that. Not just bush/cheney.

As I recall, rummy was ALL-IN on this. NEVER even uttered a peep about how wrong it might be or unworkable it might be. NOT ONCE.

Kick in to the DU tip jar?

This week we're running a special pop-up mini fund drive. From Monday through Friday we're going ad-free for all registered members, and we're asking you to kick in to the DU tip jar to support the site and keep us financially healthy.

As a bonus, making a contribution will allow you to leave kudos for another DU member, and at the end of the week we'll recognize the DUers who you think make this community great.

Tell me more...

Latest Discussions»Latest Breaking News»This message was self-del...