After 50 years, Cubans hope to travel freely

[Bacchus4.0]

Source: AP

HAVANA (AP) — After controlling the comings and goings of its people for five decades, communist Cuba appears on the verge of a momentous decision to lift many travel restrictions. One senior official says a "radical and profound" change is weeks away.

The comment by Parliament Chief Ricardo Alarcon has residents, exiles and policymakers abuzz with speculation that the much-hated exit visa could be a thing of the past, even if Raul Castro's government continues to limit the travel of doctors, scientists, military personnel and others in sensitive roles to prevent a brain drain.

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The move would open the door to increased emigration and make it easier for Cubans overseas to avoid forfeiting their residency rights, a fate that has befallen waves of exiles since the 1959 revolution.
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"The time has come to get rid of the exit visa," said Vivian Delgado, a shop worker. "It's absurd that as a Cuban I must get permission to leave my country, and even worse that I need permission to come back."



Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/50-years-cubans-hope-travel-freely-164024093.html;_ylt=Aie4Mxp._gFHHCoJis6RMeVvaA8F;_ylu=X3oDMTNkNWl1aTRhBG1pdAMEcGtnA2UwZjQ3MzRiLTVmMzEtMzQ4Yy04NWM1LWY0MDYwNGM1NmMyNwRwb3MDMQRzZWMDbG5fTGF0QW1fZ2FsBHZlcgMzMTg2YjFmOS05NDI0LTExZTEtYWZjZi00YWQ1MDE1ODk5NWQ-;_ylv=3

[trumad]

1. So the average Cuban can come to the US.

but I can't go to Cuba.

Who has more freedom?

[slackmaster]

3. Liberalized travel for Cubans isn't a reality yet. It's still "hope." You have more freedom...

...because you can travel to just about any other country in the world.

Most Cubans can't go anywhere.

[trumad]

4. But it sure looks like they will be able to.

I have no doubt they will be visiting the US, before I can visit Cuba.

My country disallowing me to visit Cuba is possibly one of the stupidest policies ever.

[Bacchus4.0]

7. the restrictions on Cubans isn't just for the US, its everywhere n/t

s

[trumad]

10. Yep

[Daniel537]

9. It is a stupid policy, but

you can still visit Cuba just by changing planes in the Bahamas or Mexico. That's how i used to get there during the Bush years.

[trumad]

13. yep

But it would be nice to take Jet Blue from Orlando.

[Daniel537]

14. No doubt.

The Dems should have tried to do something about this when they had the majority. Talk about missed opportunities.

[TheWraith]

21. They did try.

It's actually been tried something like three times in the last ten years, including once or twice with Republican support, but it usually ends up either dying in the other house, being shelved by leadership, or getting a pocket veto.

[MADem]

17. My nephew went to Cuba last year. You're behind the times.

He went to play baseball, a friendly competition. Jump on a people to people tour, and you're off to Havana.

Obama modified the regs over a year ago.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43126754/ns/travel-news/t/new-rules-promise-legal-cuba-travel-many/#.T6F3oqvOUW8

[Lydia Leftcoast]

45. I went as part of my church's long-standing exchange program

You can go with a group that has an educational, cultural, religious, or research focus, and charter flights are expanding to more cities.

Our group went on the first charter flight out of Chicago.

[MADem]

46. The people-to-people "rules" are very loose these days.

There are food tours (you eat Cuban food and talk to chefs about how to prepare it), architecture tours (you see the interesting and largely untouched edifices), photography tours, and sports tours (young people getting together to play basketball, baseball, etc.). Pretty much anything can be educational, cultural, or "people-to-people," and the flights are going out of a number of US cities.

It's only a matter of time. When Castro kicks the bucket, I think the embargo (such as it is) will, too.

[Daniel537]

5. And even if the restrictions were lifted

most Cubans still don't make enough money to actually go through the process of visiting a foreign country. Those that have no family overseas are basically stuck in the same place they are today.

[trumad]

8. They will find the money.

[Daniel537]

11. Some definitely will

but there are a lot of people in Cuba, the majority i'd say based on personal experiences, who are still trying to find money just to provide the basic things for their family. A trip to Tokyo Disneyland will probably not be the first thing on their mind. But either way, the restrictions should definitely be lifted.

[MADem]

16. I don't think the average American could afford a trip to Tokyo Disneyland! nt

[joshcryer]

35. There are enough Cuban exiles in Miami with family there that they can get a trip very easily.

Ferries would open up like crazy, it'd be crazy, imho. The Wet-Foot / Dry-Foot policy means that they can come here without a Visa, claim political persecution (all the while laughing about it), get protection, and be able to leave any time they want to go back to Cuba after they naturalize. It would end the Wet-Foot / Dry-Foot policy really quickly, imho.

[MADem]

15. The average Cuban could not go anywhere up to now.

But you could go anywhere--including Cuba, but with restrictions on your spending. And that, of course, is if the Cubans allow you IN in the first place.

So yeah, who does have more freedom?

[trumad]

18. That's not my point.

If Cuba opens up and allows their people to visit here at will---

Will the US do the same in reverse?

I doubt it.

[MADem]

28. No--your point was "So the average Cuban can come to the US" (not true)

but you can't go to Cuba (also not true).

You CAN go to Cuba, and you can go now, and you can probably go more times than the "average Cuban" will ever be able to come to the US, as the "average Cuban" doesn't have family members over here willing to send air fare willy nilly.

You're operating under old paradigms. And speaking of "old" paradigms, do you notice a correlation between the aging of a guy named Castro and the increasing normalization of relations between our two countries?

[roody]

19. Thousands go every year

under the radar of the US.

[MADem]

29. One of my nephews went, all quite above board. No sneaking.

He went to play beis-bol! He said it was an interesting and fun place to visit but he would not want to live there.

[roody]

36. I've gone twice without Big Brother's

permission, but openly.

http://ifconews.org/

[MADem]

37. A Jewish group does a similar thing, and has for several years.

I don't think anyone's been 'sanctioned' for Cuba travel for decades, now.

[Seedersandleechers]

59. My nephew went yachting

on his honeymoon from Florida to Cuba years ago. No problem.

[4th law of robotics]

23. "Who has more freedom?"

Americans.

Next question.

/I will never understand the motivation some people have to make any story about a different country in to some way being critical of the US. It could be about the appalling conditions of child laborers in the third world and someone would point out that American workers have it worse. Or about rampant murderers and rapes in some warzone and someone will point out that the crime rate is somehow worse here. And so on. Apparently the US is worse than every other nation in every possible way. Amazing anyone moves here.

[trumad]

24. Ahhhh American Exceptionalism.

My point of this thread is------- Wouldn't it be weird if Cuba allowed their citizens to come to America before Americans were allowed to go to Cuba?

Our policy towards Cuba is stupid as shit.

[Bacchus4.0]

25. thats really not the issue, Cubans who obtain a visa to the US

can already travel to the US, and Americans can travel to Cuba under certain circumstances already.

and I repeat, Cuban travel requirements apply everywhere not just the US. so while going to Canada or Mexico and then over to Cuba is an option for you, a Cuban just can't get on a plane and fly to Mexico and onward to the US.

[trumad]

26. "under certain circumstances"

I can't hop on a plane here in Orlando and go.

[joshcryer]

34. Tampa, Fort Lauderdale, Baltimore, Chicago, Atlanta, New Orleans, Dallas, Houston and Miami...

...all offer direct flights to Cuba now. You just have to jump through hoops like pretend to be on a humanitarian mission or a journalist. This is unnecessary, of course, but there isn't yet a tourist designation.

[MADem]

39. It's even looser, now--you can go on a photography, architecture or cooking trip, for example.

All that is under the "People to People" rubric that was ginned up by Clinton, suspended by Bush, and re-animated by Obama. That's how my nephew was able to go for the sole purpose to play amateur baseball and a few other sports and get to know Cuban kids with the same interests.

Architecture--leaves from Miami: http://www.preservationnation.org/travel-and-sites/travel/tours/additional-resources/cuba-3.html

Politics---outta Philly: http://www.wacphila.org/travel/upcoming_tours_2013/ Cuba: People to People: January 19 - 26: With our Treasury Department license we have been able to offer educational programs to Cuba, providing our members with fascinating and insightful experiences. On this 7-night program we meet Cubans from across the social spectrum to learn about politics, the arts and commerce. Stay at the Parque Central Hotel in Havana, close to the Old City, and take off for two nights to visit the UNESCO town of Trinidad. Approx. $4,400 inc charter.

These guys are in on the ground floor, as it were: http://www.austinlehman.com/blog/expert-in-adventure-tourism

[joshcryer]

47. People to people is good, but you still need a licensed company that offers it.

There are maybe a few dozen that do it, so they have a near monopoly on it, meaning the prices are outrageous. $2,000 for a weekend, for example. With a bicycle and a ferry ticket I could do it for a tenth that, in my humble opinion.

[MADem]

49. The better ones have worked it down to just under two hundred a day,

for a week or eight days tour, with sightseeing and transportation and meals and all those little things, from what I've seen. That seems to be what the market is bearing in this economy. If someone wants two grand for a weekend that seems outrageous to me, unless they are chartering NETJETS or something! There are much cheaper ways to go.

[4th law of robotics]

27. Indeed, saying America is worse than every other nation in every way

would be "American exceptionalism".

You asked who was freer based on Cuba "thinking" about letting her citizens leave without shooting at them or the US which let's her citizens go anywhere they wish . . except Cuba. Even ignoring all those other freedoms (speech comes to mind) that still leaves the US as freer. Not so?

[MADem]

30. You are laboring under a misapprehension.

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1097.html

Glom on to a people-to-people program, and you're doing the merengue in Habana:

http://cubapeopletopeople.blogspot.com/

[MADem]

38. It's not a contest!

Particularly when one is dealing with nations that have substantial infrastructure and resupply issues, to say nothing of foundering economies.

It's simply not a valid point for comparison. Even the most ardent enthusiasts would want their regular electrical supply, their well stocked supermarkets, their tee-vee with a zillion channels, their later model car, etc., after a bit.

My great grandmother used to tell me that you don't need to raise someone up by knocking someone else down.

[4th law of robotics]

40. He asked a question

"Who has more freedom (Americans or Cubans)".

I answered.

I didn't bring up on an unrelated thread about the US that at least we're better off than the Cubans. I merely responded to his question.

So I wasn't "knocking someone else down". I was responding factually.

Americans are more free than Cubans.

[MADem]

41. Errrrr.....I was agreeing with you! nt

[4th law of robotics]

42. Oh sorry, I wasn't sure who you were referring to

by the knocking someone down comment (like did you mean I was tearing down cubans or he was tearing down Americans).

Frankly I was a little confused by your comment.


Now it makes sense.

[MADem]

43. No--the whole "comparison" thing...

When someone says "Cubans have very good health care" someone will always say "And the evil Americans will let us all die in the streets!!"

Raising one up, while tearing the other down...!

The written word! Ain't it somethin'!!

[Posteritatis]

32. You? (nt)

[treestar]

51. You do

Considering that "freedom" covers a whole host of actions.

[Daniel537]

2. About damn time.

I'm in the process of bringing my fiance over from Cuba, hopefully by the end of this year, so i'll see if this actually ends up turning into reality since these rumors have been floating around Havana for years.

[trumad]

6. Sweet...

be careful though... she may be a double agent looking to take over America and turn it Communist.

[Daniel537]

12. I thought Obama was the one doing that.

[roody]

20. Then we would have some decent health care!

[The Wizard]

22. A relative small number

of Cuban exiles in Florida have too much to say about our foreign policy. It's all about Florida's sway over the electoral college. Yet another reason to abolish that antiquated undemocratic process. Florida forced George Bush on this country, and generations to come will still be paying for the crimes of the Bush cartel.

[Paladin]

31. We Need To Drop Our Outdated Restrictions Against Cuba.

All we're doing is keeping the Cuban people deprived and propping up the Castro boys with decades of anti-American resentment. Enough, already.....

[joshcryer]

33. Wow, if Cuba does this expect relations to normalize very quickly. Shots fired.

[Mika]

44. My girlfriend's aunt is coming from Cuba for a visit, I'll ask her about it.

She comes over here every year for about a month, and then happily returns to her home on that hellhole island of the evil Dr Castro.

[hr]

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[joshcryer]

48. Is she a doctor who has done their stint, as it were?

Exit visas are not easy to come by.

[MADem]

50. Friend of the regime? Or, she has enough family left behind to ensure her return?

Anyone who is certain to return because it would be unwise to do otherwise will always come home with goods and cash to bolster the island economy. In that case, it is a win-win.

[Mika]

53. It is the US's visa requirement of guarantees that she'll return, not Cuba's.

Don't know why the dark and scary scenarios.
There's more freedom there than here.
There's no Cubans in Cuba worrying that they'll lose their housing.
There's no Cubans in Cuba worrying that they'll lose their health care.
There's no Cubans in Cuba worrying that they'll lose the education access for their kids.
There's no Cubans in Cuba worrying that they'll lose their jobs or their incomes, and if they do they're not worried about losing any access to the aforementioned, plus they know they'll get retrained for another type of work - blue collar or white collar.

Been there. Seen it. Recently.

"Peace is not something you wish for;
It's Something you make, Something you do,
Something you are, And Something you give away."
- Robert Fulghum

[hr]

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[MADem]

54. Just not true.

Otherwise, the US would have returned that baseball player that just requested asylum.

[Mika]

55. So, your response is to just make shit up.

Have a nice day.



[hr]

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[MADem]

56. Like you did, you mean--about the "more freedom?"

I didn't make anything up. Defensive much?

Go try to buy a house in Cuba...oh, wait...that takes an act of God to accomplish, even though it's finally "allowed" on a limited basis. Yeah, that's freedom!

If you're a Cuban, try emigrating. Sure, that can happen--not. Unless you're mentally defective or a criminal--then you just might get a free ride to a FL beach!

Go to Cuba and try getting online--that's a drill, right there. Then, if you can manage to do that, try saying something critical about the regime and see how well you fare.

You know, things don't have to be "dire" and "North Korean" to not be optimal. But hey, push those rose colored glasses up on your nose, and knock yourself out.

http://www.freedomhouse.org/country/cuba

[Mika]

57. Ahh, yes. A Richard Mellon Scaife RW "think tank" as a source

Friggin fair-and-balanced laughable.


[hr]

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[MADem]

58. What's laughable is your insistence that Cubans have any measurable freedom as

compared to the rest of the world.

It's all lovely that they are adequately fed and get a decent education, but they cannot make basic choices--even bad ones--for themselves.

And you know it.

But hey, crab about sources--it's easier than acknowledging facts. I'll go sit beside David Corn.

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2008/02/no-fond-farewells-fidel-who-leaves-behind-repressive-and-impoverished-state

[dipsydoodle]

60. I'm just back from 3 weeks there too.

Amuses me the remarks here from those whose only knowledge of Cuba is from reading American comics.

[Mika]

61. Indeed.

My GF's aunt just arrived from Cuba. She sold her old car and bought a new one in Cuba (a Renault). She runs a tourist paladar/ bed & breakfast and does pretty well.
She loves Cuba, as do her friends and family who all love the socialist system there. When she watches the news here in Miami she freaks out at the violence and other very disturbing news (like the home foreclosure crisis and ed cutbacks, and the Repugs moves to cut aid to the poorest and in need).
I don't come here too much, DD. Got sick of the ignorant responses. Still LOVE my dear friends here - always will.
Cheers.


[hr]

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[dipsydoodle]

62. Funny you should mention the Renault

I noticed this time ,as opposed to 18 months ago when I was last there , the sheer number of newish European cars floating around there now. That's aside from a huge number of newish S. Korean ones with Nissan engines which could also be Renault associated with the Renault/Nissan joint venture. No American parts so unaffected by the embargo. Small Euro efficient diesel engines suit there very well anyway.

Some great deals now there too using private taxis, owners of the pre-1959 Yanks, for whole day out trips to Havana etc. We guessed they may have undercharged to be nice , so what new there , and so tipped well to compensate. I was in Jibacoa about an hours drive from Havana.

btw - you missed something off your list. By and large Cubans have no good words to say about the USA. Mind you - neither have all the Canadians there.

[Mika]

52. No she isn't.

The biggest hurtles are in getting the US visa.

[hr]

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