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herding cats

(19,549 posts)
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 10:48 PM Jul 2015

EU Tells Tsipras the Party’s Over as Euro Exit Door Swings Open

Source: Bloomberg

After five months of drama, false dawns and unpleasant surprises, Europe’s leaders are finally ready to show Alexis Tsipras the exit.

Behind the doors of the Justus Lipsius building in the heart of the political district in Brussels, the euro-region’s leaders rounded on the Greek prime minister for destabilizing the currency union before Germany’s Angela Merkel emerged to deliver an official ultimatum.

In a tense and at times emotional meeting, Tsipras’s European peers told him he’d failed to appreciate the efforts the continent’s voters and taxpayers had made to help the Greek people and blamed him for escalating tensions across the region. Six officials agreed to share their knowledge of the private talks while asking not to be named because of the sensitivity of the historical moment.

“Party time at the expense of others in Greece has come to an end,” Lithuanian President Dalia Grybauskaite said. “Europe and the euro area are surely unprepared to pay for the irresponsible behavior of the new Greek government.”

Afterward in public comments, the leaders competed to find the harshest language to describe Tsipras’s approach and its likely consequences. Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte said a “miracle” would be needed to keep Greece in the euro-region, while Malta’s Joseph Muscat said the 40-year-old had created an “enormous trust-gap” with his European counterparts.


Read more: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-08/eu-tells-tsipras-the-party-s-over-as-euro-exit-door-swings-open



There's quite a lot more at the link above. The Bloomberg article authors seems to be of a mind the Grexit is to be the end, and sooner rather than later.
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EU Tells Tsipras the Party’s Over as Euro Exit Door Swings Open (Original Post) herding cats Jul 2015 OP
"the irresponsible behavior of the new Greek government.” Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #1
Oh Yeah, Yani calling the Europeans terrorists was really, really responsible. Sen. Walter Sobchak Jul 2015 #3
LOL! Scream "MUSLIMS!!!" and everyone wets themselves. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #7
Austerity caused their problems. Taitertots Jul 2015 #40
Austerity was imposed after the bailout. Igel Jul 2015 #42
5 years ago the problem was manageable Taitertots Jul 2015 #56
The current government is the one that pretty much told the rest of the EU to fuck themselves geek tragedy Jul 2015 #4
Actually, the Greeks told the rest of the EU they weren't giving up their pensions. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #6
We'll see how well those pensions get funded ex post Grexit. geek tragedy Jul 2015 #8
The reason why they're in trouble now is because of the PRIOR government..... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #10
The larger truth is that Greece and the Eurozone geek tragedy Jul 2015 #11
The even LARGER truth is the EU was a populist movement of the People.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #12
Greece's problem is that it got itself into more geek tragedy Jul 2015 #13
One of the ways they sold the EU was to say the rich countries would share with the poor ones. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #15
Which leads to the dirty secret of the EU having higher inequality than the US Recursion Jul 2015 #18
Exactly. The "givers and takers" we all know. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #19
The problem with analogies to the states of the USA FarrenH Jul 2015 #32
That's not the problem with the analogy; the analogy is to illustrate that Recursion Jul 2015 #37
Ah, I misread you FarrenH Jul 2015 #38
Because greece is a seperate country. Travis_0004 Jul 2015 #101
There are much poorer countries than Greece in the EU. geek tragedy Jul 2015 #33
+1 DetlefK Jul 2015 #35
^^^This!^^^ Surya Gayatri Jul 2015 #44
That is the big lie. The damage was done by the previous government.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #50
so Greece's government and economic system are a model of efficiency, transparency, and geek tragedy Jul 2015 #57
If you blame HIM for it I suppose that would outrage you.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #58
he didn't cause it. but he owns it now. it's his baby. geek tragedy Jul 2015 #59
The "behaviors that got it into trouble"? Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #60
Greece's problems go far beyond hiring GS to commit fraud against its Eurozone partners. geek tragedy Jul 2015 #61
We all know the New York Times is going to explain the situation honestly.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #62
Do you think a system where people can retire at 49 with pension payments geek tragedy Jul 2015 #67
Believe it or not there's enough money in the hands of the few to give everyone a base salary. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #68
So, why did Greece cut its pensions instead of soaking its rich then? geek tragedy Jul 2015 #69
Do you feel it? A change is coming.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #71
If the Greeks don't want to take any sh!t from others, they need to stop taking money geek tragedy Jul 2015 #72
They aren't "asking for money".... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #74
So the greeks aren't asking for more loans? geek tragedy Jul 2015 #76
Every nation is operating in debt.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #78
Greece went broke under the rightwingers. geek tragedy Jul 2015 #81
Actually, the right-wingers hid the debt to get their mitts on the Euro. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #83
yes, only further confirming that it was a bad idea for Greece to join geek tragedy Jul 2015 #86
PASOK, the centre-left party, was in government when Greece joined the Euro muriel_volestrangler Jul 2015 #89
The problems started under a centre-left government muriel_volestrangler Jul 2015 #70
I wouldn't call a government that pulled that "center-left". Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #75
To the left of the Democratic party, anyway muriel_volestrangler Jul 2015 #77
Their right is to the left of our DLC. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #80
It is a centre-left, in European terms, party muriel_volestrangler Jul 2015 #82
I'm talking about the government that was there before. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #84
As I said, PASOK was the government until 2004 muriel_volestrangler Jul 2015 #87
Don't think that Tspiras will "avoid" taxing their rich citizens or collecting tax from them... cascadiance Jul 2015 #63
he hasn't raised them thus far. geek tragedy Jul 2015 #66
I like that. Igel Jul 2015 #41
Like I said elsewhere, this isn't Westeros and the Iron Bank.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #48
5 months of insulting lenders has cost Greece dearly. MrTriumph Jul 2015 #85
I really think we should threaten to invalidate the 1953 German debt write down. roamer65 Jul 2015 #2
Who is 'we?' geek tragedy Jul 2015 #5
I am baffled by the Greeks donna123 Jul 2015 #9
You really need to get away from the corporate media.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #14
yeah well hill2016 Jul 2015 #16
You increase your income.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #17
well hill2016 Jul 2015 #20
It needs to raise taxes on the rich.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #21
They can raise taxes all they want but if they do not enforce donna123 Jul 2015 #23
A lot of that is right-wing propaganda.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #24
They're not even collecting the "taxes on the rich" they have now. Until they get serious about that PoliticAverse Jul 2015 #30
The entire EU needs to be taken from the Supply Siders. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #49
This has been a problem for a long time for the Greeks... cascadiance Jul 2015 #65
I would say that you do it via trade... T_i_B Jul 2015 #25
We aren't talking about a third world country..... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #26
No, Greece is not a 3rd world country T_i_B Jul 2015 #27
Oh sure, like Serbia. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #51
A lot of third world countries have... MattSh Jul 2015 #28
It tells 1 story... T_i_B Jul 2015 #29
My point is Greece isn't a "third world country".... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2015 #55
The Greek people are not lazy, deadbeat tax cheats. Maybe a few facts will leave you less amazed. magical thyme Jul 2015 #53
Obviously I wounded you donna123 Jul 2015 #92
Why don't you try responding to the facts I presented? I'll try repeating them: magical thyme Jul 2015 #97
Greece was the first recipient of aid under the Marshall plan hack89 Jul 2015 #104
why is "everybody" paying attention to Greece? magical thyme Jul 2015 #99
I am baffled by people who are unable to create paragraphs Skittles Jul 2015 #91
Wow, insightful donna123 Jul 2015 #93
that's about as much consideration I could muster after your second sentence Skittles Jul 2015 #94
What is wrong with you donna123 Jul 2015 #95
NOTHING is wrong with me Skittles Jul 2015 #102
This isn't a repuke meme donna123 Jul 2015 #106
the meme that the Greeks are "lazy deadbeat taxcheats" didn't just happen "now" magical thyme Jul 2015 #100
When you say this, I think you are stating the problem without knowing it: freshwest Jul 2015 #105
The core problem rests with Germany's and the Troika's response to the financial crises dharmamarx Jul 2015 #22
Germany should hold a referendum of the people on a stimulus package for Greece. PoliticAverse Jul 2015 #31
or they could just pay the war reparations they've wriggled out of magical thyme Jul 2015 #54
It amazes me how many people on this board are prepared to stand with the 1% GliderGuider Jul 2015 #34
Me too. Demit Jul 2015 #36
It becomes less "amazing" when you realise that many of those people ... Nihil Jul 2015 #39
Thank you for this... Surya Gayatri Jul 2015 #46
Are you located in Southern Europe then? GliderGuider Jul 2015 #47
not one of those people reorg Jul 2015 #90
I was assuming that they are taxpayers but, from your words, you're not. Fair enough. Nihil Jul 2015 #96
Politicheski pravil'no. Igel Jul 2015 #43
When it's Greek citizens on one side and global bankers on the other GliderGuider Jul 2015 #45
It's multi-dimensional chess! merrily Jul 2015 #52
A whole nation votes overwhelmingly against being further enslavened by the banksters. The Stranger Jul 2015 #64
Or...a whole nation votes overwhelmingly not to live within their means... brooklynite Jul 2015 #73
Sure, a nation in the same way New York State is a nation. closeupready Jul 2015 #88
Oh nonsense. You've bought into that austerity lies your enslavers fed you. The Stranger Jul 2015 #103
"The party" is a depression caused by Austerity Taitertots Jul 2015 #79
To blame the new government is like blaming the oncologist because you smoked all your life dembotoz Jul 2015 #98
 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
1. "the irresponsible behavior of the new Greek government.”
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 11:00 PM
Jul 2015

Sit and spin on it buddy. The current government didn't cause it and everyone knows it.

 

Sen. Walter Sobchak

(8,692 posts)
3. Oh Yeah, Yani calling the Europeans terrorists was really, really responsible.
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 11:12 PM
Jul 2015

In the tradition of Adlai Stevenson no less,

Then there is Donald Trumpos here:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greece-threatens-to-unleash-wave-of-migrants-on-the-rest-of-europe-including-isis-jihadists-10097432.html

These guys make Maduro's peasants look marginally competent.

Igel

(35,191 posts)
42. Austerity was imposed after the bailout.
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 12:16 PM
Jul 2015

Of course, the bailout was necessary to keep them from defaulting on their pre-existing loans.

In other words, first came loans; then came economic mess; then came bailout + austerity (partly implemented, mostly not), then came the present economic mess.

Many people walked into the theater and only caught "bailout + austerity (partly implemented, mostly not), then came the present economic mess."

 

Taitertots

(7,745 posts)
56. 5 years ago the problem was manageable
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 01:53 PM
Jul 2015

5 years of intentionally destructive economic policies created the present mess. Spending cuts made their fiscal situation worse.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/07/07/debt-deflation-in-greece/?_r=0

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
4. The current government is the one that pretty much told the rest of the EU to fuck themselves
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 11:52 PM
Jul 2015

I wonder if Merkel should be required to hold a referendum in Germany to approve any aid deal.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
8. We'll see how well those pensions get funded ex post Grexit.
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 12:40 AM
Jul 2015

Apparently Greece feels it doesn't need to borrow money to pay them . . . hope the pensioners like drachmas.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
10. The reason why they're in trouble now is because of the PRIOR government.....
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 01:01 AM
Jul 2015

Everyone is playing the Euro Edition of the popular Beltway game "Kick The Hippie".

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
11. The larger truth is that Greece and the Eurozone
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 01:11 AM
Jul 2015

need a divorce.

Greece needs stimulative spending, but it's not reasonable to expect other countries to send their taxpayers' money to enable it.

The only way forward is for Greece to leave the Euro and print lots and lots of drachmas.

Note that Greece has not even made a proposal to keep themselves in the EU.

SYRIZA planned to leave the Euro all along. They lied about what the referendum meant.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
12. The even LARGER truth is the EU was a populist movement of the People....
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 01:16 AM
Jul 2015

They wanted to take power away from the individual governments in the name of peace and unity.

The bankers figured out how to exploit it with "free" trade and new money.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
13. Greece's problem is that it got itself into more
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 01:20 AM
Jul 2015

trouble than they could get themselves out of, since they couldn't print their own money.

Surrendering your currency means surrendering your sovereignty.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
18. Which leads to the dirty secret of the EU having higher inequality than the US
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 01:51 AM
Jul 2015

But disguising it by still being different countries.

Alabama and Mississippi are never expected to pay back the money CA and NY give them; Greece is.

FarrenH

(768 posts)
32. The problem with analogies to the states of the USA
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 05:46 AM
Jul 2015

was laid out for me by a pol. sci professor friend: The USA has unified monetary and fiscal policy. While states have some control over their finances, a large amount of their revenue comes from federal revenue and they can't run individual deficits funded by private lenders. The Eurozone, in contrast, has unified monetary policy in the Euro, but many disparate fiscal policies. This is a structural weakness that eliminates some options normally available to governments.

I'm deeply sympathetic to Greece's plight and think that reckless lending by an industry that was criminally negligent in most of the noughties colluding with successive governments that had a perverse incentive to hide the problem from their electorate made Greece's debt balloon to unsustainable levels (1999, 94% of GDP, 2010 when the first Eurozone bailout happened, 164%). So the "lazy and profilgate greeks" trope sold to French and German voters by not only politicians by the press, is totally inaccurate. Working Greeks work longer hours than Germans.

And if Northern European banks (encouraged and backed by French and German changes to make their banking sectors more competitive) had exercised their obligation to do proper risk assessment in the noughties, instead of not merely supplying loans, but (along with American banks) helping the Greek government hide the debt, the problem would have come to a head a decade ago. That would have toppled past governments that actually caused the problem and confronted Greeks with a much smaller problem, for which the medicine would have been far less painful. The Greek economy could actually have recovered from it, with social welfare and pension spending diminished but still much more of it in place. Ignoring, for the sake of argument, the fact that austerity is the wrong medicine from macroeconomic consensus, which is another dimension of the problem.

But the crisis has exposed two problems: One is the fundamental structural weakness of the Eurozone caused by central money policy/local fiscal policy. And the other is moral hazard, as ably argued to me by my professor friend. Even if, as I believe (as do Krugman, Stiglitz, Picketty and many other economists), austerity is absolutely the wrong medicine across Europe, and *even if a Greek bailout with more favorable terms is actually the right thing to do from a macroeconomic perspective* - if the Eurozone supplied a second bailout with extremely favorable conditions that would be a political precedent with troublesome consequences. Basically, there's nothing to stop any Eurozone member in future saying "well now we can just run an unsustainable deficit to provide services that will buy us votes, and force future governments to go cap in hand to the Eurozone, citing Greece as precedent". IOW, it introduces a perverse incentive for all other peripheral economies in the Eurozone to behave badly.

So a nexus of political and economic considerations may be forcing the hand of all parties in this mess, producing a sub-optimal result for both Greece and the Eurozone, and perhaps we shouldn't be judging the troika too harshly, even if we're sympathetic to the plight the Greek people find themselves in, which is akin to discovering that the scheme you invested your entire pension in is actually a Ponzi scheme after you've benefited substantially and that you'll be materially worse off than you would have been if you'd never invested because you now have to pay off other victims of the scheme.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
37. That's not the problem with the analogy; the analogy is to illustrate that
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 08:01 AM
Jul 2015

And that's why I think a euro exit is ultimately the least bad choice facing Greece.

Hell, even if the debt is restructured they still need to exit the Euro.

 

Travis_0004

(5,417 posts)
101. Because greece is a seperate country.
Thu Jul 9, 2015, 08:17 AM
Jul 2015

If the US allows people to retire at 65, and Mexico allowed people to retire at 55, I would bet people in the US would not be happy about subsidizing mexico retirement and other programs they don't get themselves.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
33. There are much poorer countries than Greece in the EU.
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 07:03 AM
Jul 2015

Greece isn't poor, it just is incompetent at managing its own economy.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
50. That is the big lie. The damage was done by the previous government....
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 01:20 PM
Jul 2015

The prior government LIED about the finances with the help of Goldman Sachs but everyone in the media is trying to blame the new Liberal government for the Right Wing's crimes.

Just listen to the phrases they're using, "lazy", "welfare state", "irresponsible".

This is a question of who has the power: The rich or everyone else.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
57. so Greece's government and economic system are a model of efficiency, transparency, and
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 02:00 PM
Jul 2015

fiscal discipline that will ensure that they won't spend themselves into another debt crisis?

Tsipras was talking in front of the European parliament--today--about how he recognizes that a lot more reforming needs to happen.

Of course, while he's doing that, he's stuffing the state bureaucracy with his supporters . . .

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
59. he didn't cause it. but he owns it now. it's his baby.
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 02:10 PM
Jul 2015

he's the one who has to do something about it.

Are the days of Greece's government making impossible promises and commitments to voters in terms of wages and pensions over?

That's the question.

If Greece had a track record that indicated they could ramp up deficit spending, and then trim it back once the economy got going, lenders and EUcrats would feel one way.

But, there's not much reason to think that's what will happen. What's to stop Greece from repeating the behaviors that got it into trouble?



 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
60. The "behaviors that got it into trouble"?
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 02:17 PM
Jul 2015

Oh, you mean hiding their debt with Goldman Accounting tricks and borrowing?

That's what the Right did.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
61. Greece's problems go far beyond hiring GS to commit fraud against its Eurozone partners.
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 02:27 PM
Jul 2015

Tax evasion is/was the national pastime.

The government's patronage system soaks up a lot of money that's supposed to be for the common good.

The government routinely overpromises and makes commitments it can't pay for.

Greek voters, like voters in most other places, do not get wise to this game.

There was violence in the streets in 2010 when Greece's unsustainable pension commitments from the rightwing fraud era got trimmed back. Because, Greece couldn't afford them.

Who did the rioters blame? The previous government? Goldman Sachs?

of course not, they blamed foreigners for their own problems. They blamed foreign banks for refusing to lend them money to pay for those overstuffed pension promises, that allowed an absurdly early retirement age with inflated pension amounts based on a faulty, overgenerous formula.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/09/business/global/09drachma.html?_r=0

In Greece’s generous pension system, many employees retire before they turn 50 and earn the right to rich payouts calculated on the basis of bonus-laden salaries. The bill would unify the retirement age at 65 for men and women and would reduce payouts by calculating salaries on lifetime income, as opposed to a worker’s highest, most recent pay.

It would also make it easier for Greek companies to fire workers.

Central Athens was largely shut down on Thursday as public sector workers protested in Syntagma Square, outside Parliament. Police estimated that 12,000 people demonstrated. Despite a few challenges by hooded youths carrying sticks and axes, riot police officers with gas masks and shields seemed to be in control of the situation. There were no arrests and one demonstrator was reported injured; the police said officers were not involved.

“Nobody expected this — this is worse than the occupation under the Germans,” said Nikos Stathas, 60, a plumber who recently retired. He said he had just gotten his pension, but was worried about his children and grandchildren. “This will demolish their retirement,” he said.


You see, not getting an inflated pension with retirement beginning at 49 is just like the Holocaust or something.

Is Tsipras willing to confront this way of thinking, or is he just indulging it?


 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
62. We all know the New York Times is going to explain the situation honestly....
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 02:56 PM
Jul 2015

One of the games the 1% plays is to claim you expect too much as they take more. Then, after suckering you into thinking your retirement fund is going broke they point to a place that has an even better one and you are expected to join the 1% in calling them unreasonable. They should face reality and realize they should live in poverty just like you.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
67. Do you think a system where people can retire at 49 with pension payments
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 03:07 PM
Jul 2015

based on their highest year's income is one that's affordable long-term?

Don't get me wrong. That sounds like an awesome deal. I certainly would want me some of that.

But, who pays for it?

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
69. So, why did Greece cut its pensions instead of soaking its rich then?
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 03:18 PM
Jul 2015

All Tsipras has to do is shake the money trees of wealthy Greeks and everyone gets to retire in comfort at 49. So why doesn't he?

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
72. If the Greeks don't want to take any sh!t from others, they need to stop taking money
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 04:07 PM
Jul 2015

from others.

One can ask for handouts and bailouts, and one can honestly proclaim one's autonomy and independence.

But, one can't do both.

We'll see how the Greek proposal goes tomorrow.

That proposal needs to be accepted by the Bundestag, otherwise the Greeks are out of the Euro.

Ironically, Merkel and Tsipras agree on the most important thing--Greece should be out of the Euro. Neither wants to publicly admit it.

It's the EUcrats and high-minded intermeddlers like Hollande who want the bad marriage to continue.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
74. They aren't "asking for money"....
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 04:22 PM
Jul 2015

The entire WORLD is operating in debt.

They're trying to tell Greece it's time to pay up.

They wouldn't be doing it if it were run by right-wingers.

But then, right-wingers would be calling their own people "lazy" and looting their pension programs to give tax cuts to the rich.

Oh wait, they DID that,...which is why the People took to the streets and then elected Liberals to represent THEM instead of the 1%.

And of course, we will continue to hear from the 1% what a FAILURE the business model is because it makes them less rich. They can only buy ONE Greek Island instead of 15.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
81. Greece went broke under the rightwingers.
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 04:45 PM
Jul 2015

By borrowing too much money.

Nations have differing levels of debt.

The most common cause of austerity isn't mean Germans or evil bankster conspiracies.

it's countries not being able to borrow money because people think they won't pay it back

Greece is telling its creditors it's not going to pay them back in full. Its creditors realize that.

So, the answer is to lend them more money?

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
86. yes, only further confirming that it was a bad idea for Greece to join
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 05:02 PM
Jul 2015

the Euro.

Bad idea for Greece. Bad idea for everyone else in the Euro.

Best hope for a bad marriage is an orderly, humane divorce.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,149 posts)
89. PASOK, the centre-left party, was in government when Greece joined the Euro
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 05:08 PM
Jul 2015

From 1993 to 2004. They joined the Euro in 2001.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,149 posts)
70. The problems started under a centre-left government
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 03:24 PM
Jul 2015

PASOK was in power from 1993 until 2004: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cabinets_of_Greece

Now, though, it looks like the Greek figure jugglers have been even more brazen than was previously thought. "Around 2002 in particular, various investment banks offered complex financial products with which governments could push part of their liabilities into the future," one insider recalled, adding that Mediterranean countries had snapped up such products.

Greece's debt managers agreed a huge deal with the savvy bankers of US investment bank Goldman Sachs at the start of 2002. The deal involved so-called cross-currency swaps in which government debt issued in dollars and yen was swapped for euro debt for a certain period -- to be exchanged back into the original currencies at a later date.
...
In previous years, Italy used a similar trick to mask its true debt with the help of a different US bank. In 2002 the Greek deficit amounted to 1.2 percent of GDP. After Eurostat reviewed the data in September 2004, the ratio had to be revised up to 3.7 percent. According to today's records, it stands at 5.2 percent.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/greek-debt-crisis-how-goldman-sachs-helped-greece-to-mask-its-true-debt-a-676634.html

muriel_volestrangler

(101,149 posts)
87. As I said, PASOK was the government until 2004
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 05:02 PM
Jul 2015

It took Greece into the Euro, and was the first to do the deal with Goldman Sachs.

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
63. Don't think that Tspiras will "avoid" taxing their rich citizens or collecting tax from them...
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 02:57 PM
Jul 2015

... like the previous governments did there. In that respect, he WON'T make the same "MISTAKES" (make that corrupt fiscal policy) that they engaged in.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
66. he hasn't raised them thus far.
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 03:06 PM
Jul 2015

shipping magnates and the Greek islands have remained a sticking point in negotiations.

it's not enough to promise to tax the rich, or to implement reforms at this point for him.

the problem is that he's distrusted by the other EU leaders.

That referendum stunt convinced them he was only interested in playing for the cameras back home.

Igel

(35,191 posts)
41. I like that.
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 12:13 PM
Jul 2015

Have an election and everything resets. (Does any debt owed to the old government reset, too? Then why all the bluster about German debt?) Sort of a like a year of jubilee or sabbatical year.

In 2008, I supposed that US election reset everything. No more debt, new budget. Hey, all the former obligations went away, so the Social Security projections we could have ignored.

And I suppose in 2016 all the obligations--any T-bills or obligations by the government will also evaporate. New government, everything resets. So we get to renegotiate NAFTA, I guess.

Look: Your country's bombed into oblivion, everybody's arrested and executed, you have a leg to stand on. In a democracy, it doesn't go government by government. What a democratic government does is binding on the next round of leaders. Otherwise you manage to take out a bunch of loans, call a snap election, and esp. if you lose say, "Sorry suckers."

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
48. Like I said elsewhere, this isn't Westeros and the Iron Bank....
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 01:02 PM
Jul 2015

They are refusing to negotiate because other members will do the same.

Face it. The People were ripped off.

roamer65

(36,739 posts)
2. I really think we should threaten to invalidate the 1953 German debt write down.
Tue Jul 7, 2015, 11:06 PM
Jul 2015

...and inflation adjust the German amount due. Greece forgave German debt in 1953, the Germans had better pony up or it won't just be Greece giving them problems.

donna123

(182 posts)
9. I am baffled by the Greeks
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 12:59 AM
Jul 2015

and amazed at the patience of the other EU members. I think being Greek now is identified with being a lazy deadbeat cheat (cheating taxes). Seems to me Tsipras wants/sees only way for Greece is to leave the euro but neither he nor EU wants to be held responsible for this decision. How else to explain Greece not having any proposal? Other than they're so lazy and irresponsible?? I would have more respect for the Greek people if they voted No and said they will leave euro rather than we vote no but we want the euro. Ummm what??? Whatever mistakes the EU has made, it is insufferable that Greece that are the beggars in this situation keep giving the EU the finger. Who does that? If you want to say FU to the EU, fine, then grexit already, and be prepared for whatever may come. People would respect that. But to vote No and celebrate as if you can force the EU to comply with your demands as if you are not the beggar in this situation??? I actually think a grexit is better for Greece and for the EU ultimately. Clearly, Greece is not a reliable partner for the EU. I cannot believe how much time and effort all the other EU nations have had to spend on Greece, neglecting all the other countries in the EU. WHY? Every single week or so, there's an emergency meeting. Why does Greece deserve so much of everyone's time and effort? Why is it so special? And if they do grexit, now there's all this talk of humanitarian aid, so again, free stuff. I know I may be accused of being heartless but wow, I am AMAZED. There are truly people suffering in this world, in Syria, all those migrants traveling to Europe, who could probably use this humanitarian aid, but it's like Greece is the center of the universe and everyone (at least in Europe) has to stop what they're doing to deal with them and ignore all the other problems in the world that could use people's help and attention. Whatever the problems of Greece, Greece is not exactly the poorest country in the world, is it. People are not starving, people aren't getting shot or bombed, girls aren't getting kidnapped and forced to become suicide bombers. Geez. This entitlement mentality and then everyone buying into giving Greece more and more attention and now all this about humanitarian aid because Greece needs to be the absolute focus of the EU with no thought for anything else blows my mind. Greece is never going to reform the way EU wants because people only change when they realize they have to change, not when someone tries to force them to. My opinion may not be "liberal", I guess I am fiscally conservative? but I cannot get over the behavior of the Greek people, or most of them. It's fine to have pride as long as you realize that that pride may have some cost, and you won't be eating cake.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
21. It needs to raise taxes on the rich....
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 01:59 AM
Jul 2015

There are tons of them.

Ever hear of buying a Greek island to retire?

If it got more expensive for the rich the result would be the rich bragging about it being expensive.

donna123

(182 posts)
23. They can raise taxes all they want but if they do not enforce
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 02:48 AM
Jul 2015

it, what does it matter? From what I understand, that's a huge problem in Greece, no one pays taxes! It's cultural. Also, it seems most of the rich rich have fled Greece and stocked all their money in Swiss banks. I heard Germany urged Tsipras to go after them, but nothing. I actually agree that austerity does not work, but it seems to me the bigger problem is the culture in Greece and not reforming and the fact that Tsipras has so poisoned the well that the EU has no desire at all to correct any mistakes they may have made. Most Europeans also seem very disgusted with Greeks in general and fed up! Can't blame them. Again, the best course is probably for Greece to grexit, then they are in charge of their destiny, their currency can devalue, etc. It would have been more honest for Tsipras to tell his fellow citizens that OXI means returning to the drachma. Then again, Greeks should have realized this as well, and some of them do. Sure we can blame politicians for a lot of things but some of these Greeks are lying to themselves and some of them perhaps are too stupid to put two and two together. Grexit may be very bad for a while but then hopefully they can pull themselves out of their hole and stop blaming Germany or whoever for all their woes.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
24. A lot of that is right-wing propaganda....
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 03:11 AM
Jul 2015

They run the economy and they define what is a success.

Alexis ran on saving the pensions and stopping the austerity. The 1% and the Right claim Greece is a welfare state which fits their narrative that Liberals are lazy and irresponsible. This is whether the people are in control of their economy or the rich and powerful. The vote gave Alexis more power to deal with the EU and soon Spain will be following the example set by Greece.

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
30. They're not even collecting the "taxes on the rich" they have now. Until they get serious about that
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 05:23 AM
Jul 2015

the situation won't improve.

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
65. This has been a problem for a long time for the Greeks...
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 03:03 PM
Jul 2015

... where the government hasn't been taxing the wealthy (or collecting their taxes) properly to provide a proper infusion of revenue to pay down their debts and expenses the way other countries have.

I believe Dominique Strauss Kahn was complaining about this just a month before he got in trouble with the law in New York... Perhaps a coincidence he was ousted from the IMF?...

I'm not sure I've heard enough about Tspiras priorities in fixing Greek's situation, but I would believe that given time, he'd fix the taxation and taxation collection problems as part of his fixes far more than pushing the austerity measures on the rest of their population that won't solve anything and just make things worse there.

T_i_B

(14,734 posts)
25. I would say that you do it via trade...
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 03:25 AM
Jul 2015

...but under the current circumstances, trading with Greece is too risky for many. And it's not like the Greeks have the money to buy much stuff from anyone else either.

Even if Greece has to leave the Euro, I still hope for their sakes that a compromise can be worked out that allows them to remain in the EU as leaving the EU will only make things worse for Greece.

T_i_B

(14,734 posts)
27. No, Greece is not a 3rd world country
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 03:41 AM
Jul 2015

Although there are "3rd world" countries who are better prospects for trade and investment then Greece is right now.

MattSh

(3,714 posts)
28. A lot of third world countries have...
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 03:51 AM
Jul 2015

a number of nice pretty protected areas for their 1%.

A couple of pretty pictures do not tell the whole story, either about Greece or about any third world country.

T_i_B

(14,734 posts)
29. It tells 1 story...
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 04:18 AM
Jul 2015

...that Greece is a tourist destination and makes a lot of it's money from tourism.

But the ongoing economic crisis has itself become a big deterrent for tourists. Especially as it begins to bite at the cashpoints.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
55. My point is Greece isn't a "third world country"....
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 01:44 PM
Jul 2015

The media would like to present it as such because it fits their attempt to pin the financial problems on the liberal government. They almost NEVER mention the hard right government that caused this.

The Liberal government was elected to save the pensions. Even if it means withdrawal from the EU.

Keep in mind that England is part of the European Union but never gave up their beloved pound proving that you can be a member without adopting the Euro as your national currency.

A "One World Currency" has been a dream of the 1% since the dawn of time with a dictate as to the rules of the economy as always benefiting the 1%.

There was talk of an "Amero" to put the United States, Canada and Mexico under a single currency and it was picked up by fans of Alex Jones. There's almost ZERO chance of that happening any time soon.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
53. The Greek people are not lazy, deadbeat tax cheats. Maybe a few facts will leave you less amazed.
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 01:35 PM
Jul 2015

1. Their 1% are the tax cheats (just like ours), not their 99%.
2. The 99% work longer hours than any other members of the EU. (Germans work the least.)
3. Germany has refused to pay Greece's war reparations since they were awarded in 1946, despite continuous requests by successive Greek governments. The aid given to Germany post WW2, including by Greece despite the fact that Germany slaughtered half a million Greeks and decimated their infrastructure, is what enabled Germany to become the robust economy it is today, even while so many of Germany's victims were forced to rebuild on their own.
4. Greece got stuck with a corrupt government that, among other bad decisions such as letting Goldman Sachs cook their books to get them into the EU, gave in to German demands that they take out loans to buy massive amounts of military equipment they have no use for.
5. The German government refuses to let them cancel the contracts because those sales are a very large percentage of Germany's military sales.
6. The "bailouts" didn't go to the Greek people. They went to the banksters (just like ours did in '08)
7. Instead of stimulus (like we got, which supported our economy) the EU forced extreme "austerity" and crashed the Greek economy. That is what made the debts unpayable.

And yet the Troika that is crushing Greece has no problem granting massive, unpayable loans to countries that *aren't even in the EU*, such as Ukraine and Bulgaria.

Final note: Half my family is of Greek descent. I'm tempted to suggest you ** **** ******** *******, but I won't because the would be rude and get my post hidden. I will say that Germany's current behavior appears to be it's 3rd attempt to rule the world and frankly they should have been left to rebuild their own rubble instead of given aid.

donna123

(182 posts)
92. Obviously I wounded you
Thu Jul 9, 2015, 12:34 AM
Jul 2015

because of your Greek heritage. Not my intention. Of course I do not think all Greeks are lazy deadbeat cheats, but unfortunately, I think that is the perception many are getting. As for Germany, bringing up their Nazi past, not exactly what I would call a winning strategy on Tsipras' part.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
97. Why don't you try responding to the facts I presented? I'll try repeating them:
Thu Jul 9, 2015, 06:44 AM
Jul 2015

Germany owes Greece hundreds of billions in war reparations, which Germany has refused to pay despite repeated requests, since 1946. The first excuse for delay was that it was unfair to stick West Germany with the bill. Then came reunification. The second excuse for delay was it would be unfair to stick the German children and grandchildren with the bill. Now their excuse is that they never surrendered specifically to Greece.

In the meantime, with massive amounts of aide and loan forgiveness, Germany recovered and has become the 3 leading economy in the world. Greece, in the meantime, was left to recover on their own.

Now Greece is being charged with hundreds of billions in loans, 90% of which the Troika gave, not to the Greek people to help their economy recover from their one corrupt government decades ago, but to bail out private banks from their losses.

The Troika, led by Germany, turned private bank debt into public debt . It simultaneously destroyed their economy by austerity, forcing Greece to pay that debt with pensions and destroying the Greek economy and destroying the lives and future of Greece's children and grandchildren.

In what universe is that fair?

hack89

(39,171 posts)
104. Greece was the first recipient of aid under the Marshall plan
Fri Jul 10, 2015, 11:38 AM
Jul 2015

Have you forgotten the 20 year economic expansion starting in 1950 known as the "Greek Miracle"?

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
99. why is "everybody" paying attention to Greece?
Thu Jul 9, 2015, 06:54 AM
Jul 2015

Why don't you try asking "everybody?"

I'll give you a clue. The Troika has been destroying the economies of all of the smaller, southern countries in the EU via austerity.

Greece is just the smallest of them, so the first to go under. If Greece leaves the EU, then Portugal will follow. Then Spain, Italy, Ireland and eventually France will go under. And the grand EU will be gone. That is why.

The media nicknamed them the PIIGS long ago, if you'd been paying any attention you would recognize those names. France has just gotten added in.

The IMF told the Troika back in 2010 the bailouts wouldn't work without economic stimulus to support their economies. The IMF predicted that bailouts without economic stimulus would produce exactly the situation we have today.

The Troika responded with *austerity* instead of stimulus. The Troika hid the IMF report for 5 years, while accusing the Greeks of lying. They effectively have given the Greek people the finger for 5 years.



Skittles

(152,964 posts)
94. that's about as much consideration I could muster after your second sentence
Thu Jul 9, 2015, 01:36 AM
Jul 2015


and "fiscally conservative" is typically used by repukes who think spending trillions on wars based on lies is A-OK but it's a TRAVESTY for a poor person to get help buying food

I AM NOT FOOLED

donna123

(182 posts)
95. What is wrong with you
Thu Jul 9, 2015, 03:06 AM
Jul 2015

As long as I don't say "fiscally conservative", then my credentials are intact? You seem so rigid in your views and paranoid. I guess some people may be frauds on this board and you may have had bad experiences but you just come off as hostile and kind of nutty. In case you've missed it, it seems many on DU share to some degree my opinion of what is occurring with Greece. That rather restores my faith.

Skittles

(152,964 posts)
102. NOTHING is wrong with me
Thu Jul 9, 2015, 09:49 PM
Jul 2015

I simply find REPUKE MEMES posted on DU to be SICKENING - people come to DU to get away from corporate media BULLSHIT

donna123

(182 posts)
106. This isn't a repuke meme
Sat Jul 11, 2015, 12:19 PM
Jul 2015

You may think that but there are people across the political spectrum who feel this way. The lenders should also have paid a price. If there is any way Greece can sue these people and hold them accountable, I would cheer Greece on. Frankly, Tsipras should have spent more of his energy on doing something like this than spending time calling Merkel a nazi.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
100. the meme that the Greeks are "lazy deadbeat taxcheats" didn't just happen "now"
Thu Jul 9, 2015, 07:01 AM
Jul 2015

"I think being Greek now is identified with being a lazy deadbeat cheat (cheating taxes)."

The media has been pushing that meme forever; it is nothing new. If you'd been paying attention, you would recognize that.

There is a method behind all of this madness. Try reading a couple books: "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" is a good one. "The Shock Doctrine" is another one.

Those will tell you exactly what is going on and why. In short, it is an attempt to privatize everything of value in Greece. It is going on around the world, one country at a time, and eventually no country will be immune.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
105. When you say this, I think you are stating the problem without knowing it:
Fri Jul 10, 2015, 12:55 PM
Jul 2015
There are truly people suffering in this world, in Syria, all those migrants traveling to Europe, who could probably use this humanitarian aid, but it's like Greece is the center of the universe and everyone (at least in Europe) has to stop what they're doing to deal with them and ignore all the other problems in the world that could use people's help and attention.

This part here:

There are truly people suffering in this world, in Syria, all those migrants traveling to Europe


'Been thinking Europe has been using Greece as the buffer zone between the other states and the influx of humanity from the Middle East. That's why they let them get away with all of this. It's the unspoken threat the Greeks have held over the EU. They have complained they were being forced by being in the EU to open their own borders and couldn't afford it. Thus the rise of the Golden Dawn, etc.

With the Grexit, not only Greeks, but other peoples will flood into Europe because of instability. It's not the first time, as the history of the region is one where Greece was seldom free of invaders, particularly from the Middle East. It's been the gateway for earlier wars into the rest of Europe.

So their patience was not a matter of being humanitarian, or even profit, but concern of a greater historical pattern and they have tried to contain. Due to its geography, Greece has never equaled the Breadbasket of Europe states to its north and was always dependent.

With the increase of believers who want to recreate the old Russian Empire, the western part of Europe is being hemmed in. They see many threats as well as disunity affecting them. They can't afford any more, so they placated the Greeks a long time.

Many people have moved into Europe who do not agree with its ideals. Those were ironed out with centuries of sectarian strife. Europeans don't want that again.

But the new immigrants, or at least some of them, but the media blows their existence out of proportion, have no intention to assimilate, but want to change Europe to be more like their homeland. They have no more interest in the current population and culture than Europeans had with native americans as they moved here. So the governments of Europe are struggling to do the right thing, and in some cases failing as the rightwing wins by making converts to their version of reality as shown in elections.

Some European states have adopted a fortress mentality but are failing because of the growth of population. This is going to accelerate with climate change, which also affects the Middle East, Asia, Russia, Africa, the Americas and Europe. The rise in conflict and wars were all predicted decades ago by the Pentagon as a security threat. The planet has gone beyond the threshold and humans can't turn back. So we must merge, and it's going to be a messy, but still will be a necessary moral evolution.

As far as your statement here, it may be too simplistic:

It's fine to have pride as long as you realize that that pride may have some cost, and you won't be eating cake.


Their sense of national pride that is exemplified by their love of the word, OXI or NO. The last time they gave the Nazis the bird finger and said NO, they ended up with a brutal occupation. Not just by Germans, but Italians and other fascists. The celebrated meme of 'The 300' symbolized another crushing loss. They rallied but never were really left alone because their territory is a gateway. These acts of defiance signify more loss than gain.

Greece's topography appears to have developed in them a 'king of the mountain' mentality they revere. Their mountains turned out to be molehills and their independent periods have been somewhat short lived. I think their wanting to stay in the Euro while not paying is from their memory but they don't want to admit it as they'd lose face.

They were run by aggressive rightwing leaders for many years. This is not the EU example. But I the EU perhaps needed them to save a larger wealth not given them by banks. maintaining their belief system. They don't want to bow to another empire like the Ottomans, who took over a lot of land.

JHMO.

dharmamarx

(58 posts)
22. The core problem rests with Germany's and the Troika's response to the financial crises
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 02:11 AM
Jul 2015

Greek citizens have already done the work they needed to do in terms of cleaning up Greece's finances: they replaced their previous corrupt political parties that refused to collect taxes (and thus contributed to the problem but did not entirely cause it, as Germany was also cheating on their inflation targets) with Syriza, which is clearly committed to raising taxes on rich Greeks.

Here is the economist John Quiggin on the IMF and austerity:
"After the Asian financial crises, everyone agreed that the IMF had learned its lesson, and would handle things differently in future. As the Great Financial Crises has shown, the truth is that the IMF has learned nothing and forgotten nothing. The institutional failure is made worse by the fact that the IMF’s Research Department, arguably the strongest group of macroeconomic policy researchers anywhere, got their analysis right almost from the start.... In the same year, the IMF World Economic Outlook presented a refutation of the idea of “expansionary austerity”, based on the now-discredited work of Alesina and Ardagna. Subsequent IMF research has reconfirmed the Keynesian view that contractionary fiscal policy will worsen a depression." In short, one section of the IMF (the research branch) knows that austerity does not work and another section of the IMF (the policy branch) keeps on calling for austerity. The interesting question is why our elites keep demanding economic policies with a demonstrated track record of failure.

The real tragedy is that northern European and American workers are not right now in the streets supporting Greek and Spanish workers call to end these austerity policies. What the Troika has done to Greece is exactly what they want to do to the rest of the European working class and what rich Americans want to do to the American working class.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
54. or they could just pay the war reparations they've wriggled out of
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 01:38 PM
Jul 2015

since it was awarded back in 1946. First it was "unfair" to stick W. Germany with the total bill. Then came the re-unification and it was "unfair" to stick their children and grandchildren with the bill.

Well, Germany chose to leave that bill for their children and grandchildren to pay. That doesn't mean that Greece's children and grandchildren should be left in the lurch.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
34. It amazes me how many people on this board are prepared to stand with the 1%
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 07:24 AM
Jul 2015

Last edited Wed Jul 8, 2015, 08:09 AM - Edit history (1)

Actually "amazes" isn't quite the right word. "Revolts" might be more accurate.

The Greek people have enough problems without self-styled "progressives" lining up behind Merkel and Juncker to take turns spitting on them.

 

Nihil

(13,508 posts)
39. It becomes less "amazing" when you realise that many of those people ...
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 09:18 AM
Jul 2015

... have been paying for Greece's wilful fiscal incompetence for decades.

It's not so much "stand with the 1%" as it is "enough is enough".

It's always easier to be a purist when you are an uninvolved spectator
from a few thousand miles away.



 

Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
46. Thank you for this...
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 12:38 PM
Jul 2015
"It's always easier to be a purist when you are an uninvolved spectator
from a few thousand miles away."


A-friggin-men!
 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
47. Are you located in Southern Europe then?
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 12:46 PM
Jul 2015

On edit: Ah, I see from your profile that you're in France. That puts you closer to the action. But in fairness, the fact that events might have an immediate impact on you could reduce your objectivity a bit. Just as much as being too far removed from them...

reorg

(3,317 posts)
90. not one of those people
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 06:14 PM
Jul 2015

has been paying a single cent for Greece, not 'in decades', not in the last few years. Neither have I, and I am German.

 

Nihil

(13,508 posts)
96. I was assuming that they are taxpayers but, from your words, you're not. Fair enough.
Thu Jul 9, 2015, 04:11 AM
Jul 2015

(Unless you're an ex-pat German of course, working outside the EU.)

Even if you are a pensioner or on benefits of any kind, the Greek situation
will have an impact on you simply because it impacts the state that has
control over your income so good luck & take care.



Igel

(35,191 posts)
43. Politicheski pravil'no.
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 12:27 PM
Jul 2015

This is what made that into a bad term. "Politically correct."

Tsipras says the right things. We must therefore all fall into lockstep with him because he says the right things. It is politically incorrect to point out problems with his views, flaws, etc., because he says the right thing and it is imperative that we be in solidarity with the people.

The corollary to that is if you don't march in lockstep, you're a class enemy. You're evil. You're not people.

Fortunately, progressives, liberals, (D), even DU doesn't have a hierarchy to make this work. The usual hierarchy was "the people form the party; the party has leaders, to represent the people; the people must respect their representatives; therefore, the people must do what the leaders say, because they are the voice of the people; if you disagree, you will be punished or excommunicated."

Pure "us versus them" thinking, where all you need to know is the label applied to them because, really, that's how things are.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
45. When it's Greek citizens on one side and global bankers on the other
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 12:37 PM
Jul 2015

I know where my sympathies lie.

Tsipras is irrelevant. Varoufakis on the other hand has my complete admiration. He had the grace to resign for the good of his country even when the side he supported won the referendum in a landslide. There aren't many men in politics who could do such a thing.

The Stranger

(11,297 posts)
64. A whole nation votes overwhelmingly against being further enslavened by the banksters.
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 03:01 PM
Jul 2015

And the banksters threaten quite literally to starve it into submission.

Strange days indeed.

brooklynite

(93,847 posts)
73. Or...a whole nation votes overwhelmingly not to live within their means...
Wed Jul 8, 2015, 04:13 PM
Jul 2015

...and asks for another loan.

dembotoz

(16,737 posts)
98. To blame the new government is like blaming the oncologist because you smoked all your life
Thu Jul 9, 2015, 06:53 AM
Jul 2015

Never understood austerity plans

To get you to pay your debt we are taking away your money...hell a 5 yr old can see that plan is stupid... If the country goes bk, you can't really break it up and sell of the people...or let's hope not

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