Joe Biden's 'no' on bin Laden raid could haunt him as a 2016 candidate

[ericson00]

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Last edited Thu Aug 27, 2015, 02:49 PM - Edit history (2)

Source: Politico

In May 2011, Vice President Joe Biden was in the White House Situation Room, joining President Barack Obama and his top national security officials for a crucial meeting. The question on the table: whether to order a dangerous Special Forces raid to take out Osama bin Laden.
Intelligence experts believed they had located bin Laden in a Pakistan compound, but they weren’t certain, and the risks of failure were high. After most officials present urged Obama to go for it, the president turned to Biden: “Joe, what do you think?” he asked, according to an account Biden gave months later.
Story Continued Below

“Mr. President, my suggestion is don’t go,” Biden said.




Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/08/joe-biden-bin-laden-raid-defense-hillary-clinton-2016-campaign-121779.html?hp=t4_r

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not good for Biden when national security is still an issue the GOP does well in polls in. Hillary is much stronger on national security; she was for the raid and recommended it, and thus on history's correct side. Oh yes, both of them were duped in 2002, so Biden doesn't get outta that one either. Biden, like Bush, was chicken little on OBL in 2011. Not Hillary.

[TwilightGardener]

1. I don't care for Biden, but getting Bin Laden didn't exactly improve a whole lot of shit--

it was good for getting justice, but it wasn't a game changer after all.

[ericson00]

3. yes it did. It got rid of the man who attacked America on September 11, 2001

liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans, all died that fateful day.

[leveymg]

35. We didn't have to go all the way to Abottabad to do that. "Ok, you've covered your ass now"

Shrub's response after being read the August 6 PDB by his CIA briefer, entitled,

[ericson00]

36. Biden, like Bush, didn't wanna get him. Hillary did.

and I'm no Bush fan, so IDK why you guys try to keep making this about Bush.

[FarPoint]

13. That's exactly right...

Also, it sent a strong message from American and may of been a huge deterrent from future attacks in the making.

[ericson00]

16. we put a boot in OBL's ass, the American way

and not just in a song, either.

[Tom28]

40. He was actually sodomized with a bayonet. Is that the "American way"?

A mob grew around Gaddafi as he was frog-marched through the sand. While he was being taken towards a group of rebel trucks, one fighter crouched in the dirt behind the frightened captive and sodomised him with a bayonet.

"Haram alaikum!" screamed Gaddafi, his voice hoarse and his eyes darting wildly. Loosely translated: "It's a sin what you are doing!"

Blood from the vanquished leader's various wounds was now caking his shirt. Blows rained down on him. Every one of his captors seemed to want a piece of the hobbled tyrant.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/20/muammar-gaddafi-killing-witnesses

[ericson00]

42. I said OBL, Osama Bin Laden, not Qaddafi

and I did not condone the raping of Gaddafi. With regard to Bin Laden (OBL), I also think they were too nice by giving him a traditional Islamic burial.

[Tom28]

43. But you would condone raping Osama with a boot?

Well, then, I guess that's okay!

[AtheistCrusader]

21. Did we?

We were doing the black bag abduction/execution thing a long time ago. I don't think anything new happened in that raid.


Biden may ultimately have been right, the raid was very nearly a disaster. In a way, it was, we lost the tail rotor section of a clearly secret steath helicopter. That's no ordinary blackhawk tail.

That raid could have gone a LOT worse. I wouldn't attribute Biden's risk-aversion in that instance, to cowardice or being 'soft' or anything else. It was prudent.

[pampango]

2. Wouldn't republicans have to give Obama credit for saying "Yes" before they could criticize Biden

for saying "No"? To hear them credit Obama with a wise and brave decision in the face of conflicting opinions from his advisors and vice president would, IMHO, be worth any damage done to Joe.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

4. Mitt Romney said he wouldn't strike within Pakistan to get him

but he got a pass from the beltway hacks, because IOKIYAR

[ericson00]

5. Biden and Romney were in the wrong

Hillary was correct. She is much stronger on national security.

[AtheistCrusader]

24. It comes at a cost.

There is a quarter of a helicopter with samples of angular low radar reflectivity design, low IR paint samples, carbon composite blades, vibration/cavitation damping main rotor and tail rotor efforts in unknown hands.

They lost exactly as much equipment as they could, and still get everyone out in the mission.

Imagine if half the team had ended up in Pakistani hands?
Imagine what will be done with the salvaged tech?

Yes, fortune favors the bold, and we won. But it came at a cost.

[Oneironaut]

6. Obama gambled and won. That could have ruined him.

Thank goodness the raid was successful, but I could see Biden's reservations.

[catnhatnh]

7. You would think someone who whines constantly about "Hlllary Bashing"

would wait until a well loved democrat announced a run before attacking him.

[ericson00]

8. I like Joe Biden, but such bad judgement on things that actually matter to Americans

like this, and not some dumb email scandal, is something I think ought to be a factor when choosing a party nominee and President.

[bigworld]

11. The "dumb email scandal" and the prevaricating and weaving and denying tells me more about HRC

than an err on the side of caution by the Vice President.

[ericson00]

14. who cares?All pols are not fully honest thats how you please enough people to get to national office

Biden included in his past (tho plaigiarizing a speech went a little too obvious, IMO).

She was right on an issue that meant something to and for Americans. Biden was not. I care about competence and the decisions made that affect people, not character, altho the Clintons have impeccable character. Their policies did way better for Americans than Republicans. And on national security, Hillary clearly is more competent than Biden.

[blackspade]

23. How is it bad judgement?

It was an iffy mission that easily could have easily been totally fucked up.
I thought that we as Democrats wanted honest opinions rather than yes men/women around our leaders?

[leveymg]

44. I'll show you what really bad judgement is: Hillary & Petraeus arming ISIS in Libya and Syria

and not really concerned with blowback.

[arcane1]

9. Is this really "Latest Breaking News"? n/t

[fbc]

10. Clinton told Obama she would give her opinion after she was president.

in before thread close?

[still_one]

12. I do question Joe's judgement, not just on that either

[ericson00]

15. Anita Hill probably agrees, as do I

and he's a gaffe machine like Gore and Kerry.

[AtheistCrusader]

17. Nobody's as gaffable as Trump.

I'd vote for Joe over anyone on the R side of the fence.

My preference is Sanders, but I'd do a toss up between Biden and Hillary.

[still_one]

18. those hearings were not well done. The fact that only now he is

Supposedly considering a run, why didn't he do this month's ago? To me that is also a reflection of judgement, and perhaps he doesn't have his heart in it

[underthematrix]

19. Oh my! we have entered the silly season.

[blackspade]

20. Well, Obama did ask his opinion.

This is another faux 'issue' that the M$M will use against Democrats.
We shouldn't buy into it. It's manufactured, just like the other Democratic 'scandals' this election cycle.

[AtomicKitten]

22. Bush closed CIA's Bin Laden Unit in 2006-infinitely more problematic than Joe's nay vote on the raid

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/jul/04/usa.alqaida

And for the record, Clinton's vote to invade Iraq is still the deal-breaker for many Democrats no matter how much her supporters trash-talk Biden.

[ericson00]

25. Biden voted for Iraq too you know

so if Clinton doing it is a deal breaker for those far-left types, who don't represent the bulk of Democrats, then Biden doing it also should be a deal breaker.

Also, I'm not a fan of Bushes, which is why I'm here. This article isn't about the Bushes. Its about Biden's bad call on OBL and Hillary's correct call.

[AtomicKitten]

27. But Clinton did sooooo much more.

She and her husband supported the Bush military intervention all along, both at one time supporting the use of torture in limited circumstances (with Bill waxing rhapsodic about the TV show 24).

[4lbs]

26. We could have had Bin Laden in 2001. Remember the caves at Tora Bora?

He was trapped inside, and US Special Forces troops waited for many hours for the green light to go in and get him.

During that waiting, he was able to slip away into Pakistan.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/12/15/how-bin-laden-escaped-in-2001-the-lessons-of-tora-bora.html


------

Just before, however, bin Laden had made an egregious error. After spending a couple seconds too long on his radio, the CIA pinpointed bin Laden’s location to within ten meters. One hour later, forty of America’s most elite special operations forces raced to kill the most infamous man alive.

....

So, perhaps the most surprising fact about the Bush Administration’s response to September 11, was that no one in the White House was paying attention when bin Laden was cornered at Tora Bora.

....

But the largest mistake made by President George W. Bush and Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld was their failure to examine and intervene in the affairs of the military. Throughout the Battle of Tora Bora, neither the president nor the secretary of defense was directly engaged in the most important operation of the U.S. war in Afghanistan.

---------------

They actually wanted many more US forces to seal off all exits. Instead of the 800 to 1200 they wanted, they got just 40 to 100. That wasn't enough to cover all exits. So, he got away.


He could have easily been captured or killed soon after 9/11. However, that would not have helped the Bush Admin's case for expanding their war to include Iraq and other nations. If OBL had been neutralized back then, very few people would have supported their desire to go into Iraq and other parts of the world.

[ericson00]

28. yes and Biden woulda repeated that mistake. Thankfully, Hillary wouldn't have, and recommended

getting OBL.

so there is no need to talk about Bush's failing, except that Biden was following in the footsteps, Hillary was not.

[4lbs]

30. Biden recommended no because of the lack of concrete evidence. All they had to go on was that

someone important must be living at that compound because of all the security and defensive measures there.

Also, because of the secretive goings on that were tracked there, including lack of use of electronic devices and communications, whomever lived there didn't want to be readily seen in public or be listened upon.

Furthermore, since the compound was near a Pakistani military training academy, it had to be someone that wasn't threatening to Pakistan and maybe even receiving some unofficial support from them.

So, they figured it was likely someone like OBL, but couldn't be sure. With the satellites training upon the compound, no images of anyone "important" living there were obtained. Just a few people milling about and going in and out from time to time.


While the decision by Obama to go in was ultimately the correct one, Biden's reservations are understandable.

[ericson00]

38. I'm reminded of the Lion King, when Mufasa is telling Simba that you gotta be brave,

as Hillary was, and like Mufasa also said, avoiding unnecessary dangers. Hillary has done that by not pushing another all out war like the Bushes did. But she had courage to get OBL, that Bush and Biden avoided.

[Metric System]

29. I don't really fault Biden on this one. The mission really could have gone either way.

[ericson00]

32. then I guess Bush was right in Tora Bora. But sometimes, you gotta make bold moves

and Hillary knows how to do that, hence why she'd be a much better candidate and president. Unlike emails or whitewater, this is an actual issue that would hurt Biden in the GE.

[Tom28]

37. "Bold moves"?

Like in Libya?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/hillarys-war-how-conviction-replaced-skepticism-in-libya-intervention/2011/10/28/gIQAhGS7WM_story.html

[ericson00]

39. Libya's actually been doing pretty well lately

peace talks moving, not a jungle like Iraq, so Hillary showed genius; we both achieved the end of Qaddafi but didn't get bogged down like in Iraq.

[Tom28]

41. :)

LOL.

[leveymg]

45. You mean compared to where, Syria? Central Iraq?

Glad to hear you cite Libya as an example of Hillary's "genius." That it is. That it is.

[hedgehog]

31. This is a reason to vote for Biden - enough with the cowboy foreign policy!

[ericson00]

33. getting the man who killed 3000 freedom loving Americas is not cowboy foreign policy

its judgment, courage, and competence.

[harun]

46. Yeah, this is a plus for Biden.

[Tom28]

47. How do you know Biden would not be a cowboy on foreign policy?

Just because he opposed the Osama assassination?

[progree]

34. LBN is for late breaking news, not analysis/opinion pieces

Last edited Thu Aug 27, 2015, 03:31 PM - Edit history (1)

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[DonViejo]

48. Locking...

The consensus of Forum Hosts agree, this is not Latest Breaking News, but rather, opinion and analysis; articles not permitted in the LBN Forum.

From the SOP

Post the latest news from reputable mainstream news websites and blogs. Important news of national interest only. No analysis or opinion pieces. No duplicates. News stories must have been published within the last 12 hours. Use the published title of the story as the title of the discussion thread.