HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » Latest Breaking News (Forum) » Trump criticizes Ben Cars...

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 10:15 AM

Trump criticizes Ben Carson, says he doesn't have 'energy'

Source: Associated Press

Trump, who has made a practice in public appearances and interviews of listing those he says have wronged him, told the crowd that he doesn't think Ben Carson could negotiate effectively with world leaders.

"I don't think Ben has the energy," Trump said. "Ben is a nice man, but when you're negotiating against China and you're negotiating against these Japanese guys that are going to come against you in waves, and they think we're all a bunch of jerks 'cause our leaders are so stupid and so incompetent and so inept, we need people that are really smart, that have tremendous deal-making skills and that have great, great energy."


Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/trump-bids-perry-adieu-race-takes-aim-rival-185930884--election.html



"when you're negotiating against China and you're negotiating against these Japanese guys that are going to come against you in waves,"

At least this time he left out the part about how they skip the small talk and just blurt out "we want deal!" http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/gop-primaries/251969-trump-impersonates-asian-negotiators

"I don't think Ben has the energy, ... we need people that are really smart, that have tremendous deal-making skills and that have great, great energy."

Ben Carson, as probably all of you know, is African American, but just in case. So Trump has managed to add to the stereotypical insults of two races this time.

46 replies, 4011 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 46 replies Author Time Post
Reply Trump criticizes Ben Carson, says he doesn't have 'energy' (Original post)
progree Sep 2015 OP
Thor_MN Sep 2015 #1
progree Sep 2015 #2
Thor_MN Sep 2015 #4
progree Sep 2015 #5
Thor_MN Sep 2015 #8
progree Sep 2015 #10
Thor_MN Sep 2015 #12
Hortensis Sep 2015 #30
Thor_MN Sep 2015 #37
Hortensis Sep 2015 #38
progree Sep 2015 #9
muriel_volestrangler Sep 2015 #11
Thor_MN Sep 2015 #13
muriel_volestrangler Sep 2015 #14
progree Sep 2015 #15
Thor_MN Sep 2015 #16
progree Sep 2015 #18
Thor_MN Sep 2015 #20
progree Sep 2015 #21
Thor_MN Sep 2015 #23
progree Sep 2015 #25
Thor_MN Sep 2015 #27
progree Sep 2015 #28
Thor_MN Sep 2015 #36
progree Sep 2015 #40
Thor_MN Sep 2015 #41
progree Sep 2015 #43
Thor_MN Sep 2015 #44
progree Sep 2015 #46
Thor_MN Sep 2015 #19
bigworld Sep 2015 #3
ananda Sep 2015 #7
zazen Sep 2015 #33
marble falls Sep 2015 #6
Sunlei Sep 2015 #17
Sunlei Sep 2015 #22
KeepItReal Sep 2015 #24
winstars Sep 2015 #31
Eleanors38 Sep 2015 #26
gwheezie Sep 2015 #29
Geronimoe Sep 2015 #32
CTyankee Sep 2015 #34
Vinca Sep 2015 #35
ram2008 Sep 2015 #39
Skittles Sep 2015 #42
progree Sep 2015 #45

Response to progree (Original post)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 10:22 AM

1. Ben Carson is a quiet, calm person.

 

There's nothing racist in noting a fact about a person.

He's also insane, IMO. (both of them.)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Thor_MN (Reply #1)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 10:26 AM

2. OK, if you say so. nm

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to progree (Reply #2)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 10:36 AM

4. Have you ever seen Ben Carson speak?

 

If you have, tell me he's energetic. If you haven't I'll tell you that he speaks in a low, slow voice, without any excitement at all.

Saying that he doesn't have energy is a fact. Not a bad thing, unless you want to be a game show host, a carnival barker, or opening/warmup act. If you want to be a surgeon, being calm and quiet is a big plus.

His skin coloration has absolutely no bearing on that. He's a calm, quiet person, and that is fact.



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Thor_MN (Reply #4)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 10:41 AM

5. If you say so, whatever. nm

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to progree (Reply #5)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 10:43 AM

8. I do. I did.

 

You still have not explained why you think he is high energy.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Thor_MN (Reply #8)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 10:45 AM

10. See 9. Bye.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to progree (Reply #10)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 10:47 AM

12. OK, I see that you think Ben is able to get lots of stuff done.

 

Good bye, I'm not sure where you dredged up the racist angle, but it must have come from somewhere in your head.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Thor_MN (Reply #12)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 12:03 PM

30. Poor Ben Carson. Black politicians HAVE to seem "calm" or risk being

taken for potentially hostile and dangerous -- which always makes it just that much easier for opponents to claim they're...low energy. Obama's always been wonderfully cool, but that's never stopped this guy whose hair is rapidly turning white from the burdens of the presidency being accused of laziness.

Like this from Roger Ailes, president of Fox News, who said, "‘Obama’s the one who never worked a day in his life. He never earned a penny that wasn’t public money. How often does he play basketball and golf? I wish I had that kind of time. He’s lazy, but the media won’t report that."

Or this Trump statement alleged by a former president of Trump Plaze: "I have black guys counting my money! I hate it. ... The only kind of people I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes every day. ... Laziness is a trait in blacks. It really is, I believe that."

BTW, I suspect Ben Carson's public face is very misleading. I remember watching him, during the last election, call on a room of conservative women to go out and stop liberal women from "castrating" men. That was the task he specifically gave them. (The camera angle didn't allow me to examine their faces, and I so wished to!)

Now, this is very subjective, but in my several decades, I have heard a number of accusations made about "castrating" females, and all of them revealed a great deal of hostility toward women in those men. "Female" was also always replaced by one of a number of words that aren't normally used in polite company, but we were never being filmed and, of course, obviously any pretensions to being polite company had been discarded after the second drink or so.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hortensis (Reply #30)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 03:53 PM

37. Wow, where did you pull that from?

 

Did you mean to reply to someone else, because you dialed the wrong number.

My argument is that calling Trump racist for saying Carson doesn't have energy is a very weak argument. One only has to hear him speak in order to understand the meaning. I'm not saying Trump isn't racist, just that the claim, based on just the statement in the OP, is quite lame.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Thor_MN (Reply #37)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 05:15 PM

38. Thor, I'll explain and didn't mean to offend, just to disagree.

I neither believe Carson is as a "quiet and calm man" as you do, for the reason I stated, nor do I assume evidence that Trump's comment was racist is very thin.

Trump has made a number of well documented comments about inferior traits of "the blacks, "the Jews," "the Mexicans," "women," "our leaders" and others. His belief in the inferiority of others is one of his most outstanding characteristics.

The strongest argument against expressing a specific racial insult against a black man in this case (and against "the blacks," "the Jews," women, and other groups in others) is that he's likely a clinically diagnosable narcissist who -- again -- believes ALL people are inferior to him.

Another argument against specific bias in this instance is that I suspect Trump may be literally incapable of seeing how others may interpret his stream-of-consciousness comments. Witness reactions to those about how beautiful and desirable HIS daughter is. Of course -- she's HIS creation and that is how he evaluates the worth of women. I strongly doubt he was admitting to a desire to bed her, just boasting about HIS daughter.

So in the same misunderstood way, what would almost certainly have been an overt, dog-whistle-type racist comment from another may have been just yet another irrational evaluation of an "inferior."

But, still, it seems to me that to generously assume this statement was probably not racist in light of all his baised comments on record is probably not warranted. Also, and not at all least -- intent to be racist is not required to be racist.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Thor_MN (Reply #4)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 10:43 AM

9. I've known a lot of quite calm people that are also energetic. One doesn't

have to jumping around like they have a stick of dynamite up their ass and their hair on fire to get a lot of things done. Or to be a good negotiator (in fact I think it is an asset there). But that's just my experience observing people.

He's not very bright either, according to Trump.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Thor_MN (Reply #4)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 10:46 AM

11. No, saying that is not 'a fact'

Being calm or quiet is not the opposite to having energy.

He achieved a lot as a neurosurgeon. That took 'energy'. He even had anger issues as a child, as Trump still does (and which I think Trump mistakes for 'energy'), but he learned to control them.

His views on evolution are terrible, and I think he more or less wants a theocracy, so he is completely unsuitable as a president, but he does not lack energy.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #11)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 10:50 AM

13. Opinions vary, especially when people are operating on multiple definitions.

 

Do you think that Trump's comment that Carson does not have energy was racially motivated?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Thor_MN (Reply #13)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 10:56 AM

14. Opinions vary, and that's why it's not 'a fact'; it was your, and Trump's, opinion

Racially motivated? Could be. He is racist, but that doesn't mean everything he does is racially motivated. bigworld points out he said similar things about Jeb!. But Trump is an out-of-control misanthrope, who revels in insulting people. Whether there was a conscious, or unconscious, decision to imply a 'lazy black' slur is hard to tell. Trump is a one-off disaster area of personality, that resists rational examination.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #14)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 11:00 AM

15. Not to mention his stereotyping of Asians and Latino immigrants

or suggesting that Ben Carson might not be the brightest bulb on the tree

"we need people that are really smart, that have tremendous deal-making skills " (in the context that Carson isn't that person).

But, oh well.

Hispanic lawmakers call on Trump to apologize,
http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/245607-hispanic-lawmakers-call-on-trump-to-apologize

Well he did say "I assume some are good people" (referring to Latino immigrants) so, maybe Trump is wonderfully unbiased and unprejudiced, and I'm just pulling all this racism stuff "out of my head".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to progree (Reply #15)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 11:06 AM

16. Huh, I don't "Bye" means what you think it means...

 

Got it, You think Trump is racist for saying Carson doesn't have energy...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Thor_MN (Reply #16)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 11:11 AM

18. Or suggesting that he's not very bright. And his nasty stereotypical comments about women,

Asians, and Mexican immigrants.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to progree (Reply #18)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 11:17 AM

20. I never mentioned anything about that.

 

I just noted that your claim that it's racist to say Ben Carson doesn't have energy is a large stretch to anyone that has seen him speak. By your criteria, Stephany Miller and the guys on her show are racists as well. Every time they talk about him, they pretend that they have dozed off because he is so boring and monotone.

Sometimes a boring person is just a boring person.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Thor_MN (Reply #20)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 11:22 AM

21. In my OP I included the comments about energy and not being very bright

and the Asian stereotypes. Later on I added the Mexican and women stereotypes.

But for some reason all you do is talk about is comment on Ben Carson's energy. And totally ignore everything else that would give people reason to believe that he is into stereotyping groups of people.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to progree (Reply #21)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 11:31 AM

23. Trump didn't say that Carson wasn't bright.

 

In your rush to promote the "lazy black" meme, you failed to notice that Trump said that bright people are needed. He did not say that Carson wasn't bright, except in your inference.

I'm not saying Trump isn't an ass, just that your criteria for calling him racist for calling Carson low energy is very weak.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Thor_MN (Reply #23)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 11:40 AM

25. Not directly, but yes, he implied it. Even the AP inferred that too (read the OP)

"calling him racist for calling Carson low energy is very weak."

And for inferring he isn't very bright and has poor negotiating skills.

And given his history of stereotyping women, Latino immigrants, and Asians.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to progree (Reply #25)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 11:45 AM

27. Where is your post claiming Stephanie Miller is racist?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Trump (and said so in my first reply), but if you are not going to be a hypocrite, you have to call everyone who says Carson is not exciting, a racist.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Thor_MN (Reply #27)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 11:52 AM

28. "you have to call everyone who says Carson is not exciting, a racist."

LOL. And now, I supposedly think, or should think, everyone who says Carson is not exciting is a racist. Or something like that. And as if my OP said that Trump said Carson is not exciting, and that's all my OP is about. (On edit got rid of the "not" in front of "a racist"

I've said it over and over and over and over again and again, its not just about the low energy part of Trump's comment. You are so obsessed with the energy thing. What about the implication that Carson's not all that bright nor able to negotatiate adequately? Or Trump's history of stereotyping women, Latino immigrants, and Asians, FFS?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to progree (Reply #28)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 03:46 PM

36. That's the only part where Trump made a comment about Carson.

 


Only someone who is incredibly obtuse would think that they can blithely substitute what they want to hear, for what they actually heard. If you choose to be a hypocrite, so be it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Thor_MN (Reply #36)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 05:32 PM

40. Only someone who is incredibly obtuse

would think Trump is probably not talking about Carson when he talks about smart and deal-making skills in the same sentence he talks about Ben's energy.

And saying that for consistency I should be calling out Stephanie Miller as a racist, as you did in #27, because she says Carson is not exciting, is also being way up there on the obtuse scale.

Only someone who is incredibly obtuse would think that they can blithely substitute what they want to hear, for what they actually heard. If you choose to be a hypocrite, so be it.


Oh so nasty. So so nasty. You feel better now! Now that you've reduced yourself to name calling and ad hominens. (And I didn't think you could dip below #27, but you managed. Good for you buddy ).

And no, of course, Trump doesn't have a history of stereotyping groups of people like women, Latinos, or Asians, now, does he? So it would be totally offbase to see any racist tinge to his remarks about Carson's energy and his intelligence and his negotiating skills, right?

I suppose you didn't think Trump was talking about a woman's cycle when she say Megyn Kelly had blood coming out of her "wherever" either, did ya?



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to progree (Reply #40)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 06:53 PM

41. Trump did not say Carson was not bright, nor lacked deal making skills.

 

I'll give the quote back.

"I don't think Ben has the energy, ... we need people that are really smart, that have tremendous deal-making skills and that have great, great energy."

He claims Carson doesn't have the energy. And then says that smart people with deal making skills and great, great energy are needed. He categorically does not say that Carson lacks intelligence or deal making skills.

One could as easily infer that it is only the energy that Carson lacks in Trump's opinion, but we don't know because Trump didn't say any thing about that.

When dealing with someone's quote "probably" doesn't cut it. If the person didn't say it, the best you can claim they implied it as you have already (incorrectly, you said he inferred it) admitted.

All too often, people who seek to be offend try to put words in mouth of others. I do not care what Trump's history is, I think he is an incredible, huge, asshole. I've made this clear, based on what he said, in the quote you used, claiming that it was a racist stament is ridiculous.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Thor_MN (Reply #41)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 09:51 PM

43. And claiming that he didn't have Carson in mind when talking about him in the same sentence

"as needing really smart, that have tremendous deal-making skills and that have great, great energy."

is ridiculous. Maybe you see it as disconnected. I don't. I'm saying that the above sentence is probably another way of saying Carson is not the brightest bulb on the tree nor the sharpest knife in the drawer. But doing it in an indirect way that keeps him from being called out.

I don't know that for sure. But you don't know otherwise for sure either. I think my interpretation is much more likely, but I can't prove it with 100% certainty. And neither can you prove that he wasn't suggesting Carson lacks the intelligence and the deal making skills (beyond simply lacking the energy).

claiming that it was a racist statement is ridiculous.


and claiming it is not a racist statement is even more ridiculous. Neither of us knows.

I do not care what Trump's history is


That's clear from your failure to ever address any of his many statements negatively stereotyping many other classifications of people. And having made a little swipe about "these Japanese guys that are going to come against you in waves," in the very same paragraph that he's characterizing Carson.

I guess were just going to have to struggle along our different paths.

At least you've dropped characterizing me as a hypocrit because I don't blow the whistle on Stephanie Miller for calling Carson not exciting. That was a doozie. I miss that.

[font color = red]On Edit:[/font]
All too often, people who seek to be offended try to put words in mouth of others.

For the record -- you should talk. Like in #8 and #12. I'm sure I'd find plenty of others if I looked.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to progree (Reply #43)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 09:55 PM

44. Your lack of understanding what I am saying is as deep as your failure on Trump.

 

Since you appear to only hear what you want to hear, regardless of what is actually said, it's hopeless. You have convinced yourself that you are correct, so I'll leave you in your delusion.

Have a nice life accusing others of your own beliefs.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Thor_MN (Reply #44)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 10:00 PM

46. Yup. Same to you buddy:

Since you appear to only hear what you want to hear, regardless of what is actually said, it's hopeless.

You have convinced yourself that you are correct, so I'll leave you in your delusion.

Have a nice life accusing others of your own beliefs.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #14)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 11:12 AM

19. Excellent observations.

 

Trump is an extremely abrasive person, and highly irrational.

However, it is a fact that Ben Carson's personality (my bad for not making that entirely clear) does not exude energy and excitement.

And noting that is not automatically racist.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to progree (Original post)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 10:30 AM

3. He's also said Jeb! was low-energy too

I think it's just one of many ready everyday insults in Trump's bag of them that he pulls out.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bigworld (Reply #3)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 10:43 AM

7. I'm thinking "energy" is a code word for virility.

imho

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ananda (Reply #7)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 12:44 PM

33. bingo!! it's the equivalent of bashing women's looks to Trump--insinuating they're impotent

and he, of course, is not, which is somehow associated in his mind with bashing the worth of any female who looks a day older than twenty.

Some old men's obsession with screwing near-children as an antidote to aging ought to be classified in the DSM and yet it's taken as some sociobiological given.

Ugh.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to progree (Original post)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 10:42 AM

6. Oh Oh! I think Madam Lafarge is knitting Ben Carson out of the clown car

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to progree (Original post)


Response to progree (Original post)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 11:22 AM

22. So tired he's a "retired" Neurosurgeon

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to progree (Original post)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 11:36 AM

24. "these Japanese guys that are going to come against you in waves" - WTF?

What kind of wave attack negotiations has Donald Trump been involved in?

Did he mow them down with his .50 caliber intellect?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KeepItReal (Reply #24)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 12:05 PM

31. He is so fucking stupid he mixed up the Japanese in WW2 with the Chinese in the Korean War...

He is so lazy he couldn't care less who he insults.


The Japanese in WW2 attacked at times using the Banzai charge, which by the way rarely worked and was a last, desperate tactic...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banzai_charge


The Chinese in the Korean War were the ones that tried to attack in waves, the human wave...which only worked when GI's basically ran out of bullets...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_wave_attack


I guess Dumps "military training" wasn't that great!!!


Oh and by the way, when I was a kid growing up in NY, I was doing poorly in school at one point, the threat was, unless I straightened out:

WE ARE SENDING YOU TO MILITARY SCHOOL IF YOU DON'T STOP BEING A FUCK UP!!!


I am guessing my Dad was more persuasive to me than old Fred was to this asshole Dump...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to progree (Original post)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 11:44 AM

26. Why, he's multi-cultural after all! Chinese, Japanese, squeee!

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to progree (Original post)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 11:54 AM

29. Lo T?

I want someone to drug test tRump.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to progree (Original post)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 12:23 PM

32. Energy Czar

 

Is the Donald the energy Czar?

He could win because he is like a character from the World Federation of fake Wrestling. Many Americans can only relate to stupid. Perhaps in the next debate he can body slam some opponents and put some others in a headlock. Possibly break a chair over one of the moderators.

I

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to progree (Original post)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 03:24 PM

34. Maybe Ben's campaign logo could be "Ben!"

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to progree (Original post)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 03:26 PM

35. Trump is correct on this one.

Carson could put an insomniac to sleep in under a minute. I'm getting tired just thinking about him. What I wish someone on that side would do is question why he thinks he's presidential material. Unless he's planning on transplanting the brains of his fellow Republicans while in the Oval Office - assuming he can find any brains - I don't know why he believes he's qualified for the job.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to progree (Original post)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 05:25 PM

39. Carson is scarier than Trump

The cadence in which he speaks and the way he looks when he speaks strikes me as very off kilter. It's a sort of calm, stoic, and blunted way of speaking without any emotion, the type you see in someone who is bordering on a psychotic break. It actually freaks me out and gives me the heebee jeebies. If you watched his Ferguson speech it looked like he was on a different planet, there was nothing behind the eyes:

Here's the link:

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to progree (Original post)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 07:25 PM

42. Trump is confusing energy and mania

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Skittles (Reply #42)

Sun Sep 13, 2015, 09:58 PM

45. LOL. Yup, I think there's something to that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread