Trayvon Martin killed by single gunshot fired from 'intermediate range,' autopsy shows

[shawn703]

Source: MSNBC

Florida teenager Trayvon Martin died from a single gunshot wound to the chest fired from “intermediate range,” according to an autopsy report reviewed Wednesday by NBC News.

The official report, prepared by the medical examiner in Volusia County, Fla., also found that the 17-year-old Martin had one other fresh injury – a small abrasion, no more than a quarter-inch  in size –  on his left ring finger below the knuckle.

Separately, a medical report on Martin’s alleged killer, 28-year-old George Zimmerman, prepared by his personal physician the day after Martin’s shooting in Sanford, Fla., on Feb. 26, found that the Neighborhood Watch volunteer suffered a likely broken nose, swelling, two black eyes and cuts to the scalp. That report, first reported Tuesday by ABC News, also was reviewed by NBC News.

Both documents are part of a mountain of evidence – up to 300 pages and 67 CDs of witness statements, surveillance videos and other material-- expected to be made public soon in connection with the second-degree murder case against Zimmerman.

Read more: http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/16/11736208-trayvon-martin-killed-by-single-gunshot-fired-from-intermediate-range-autopsy-shows?chromedomain=openchannel&lite

[warrior1]

1. how far is that?

and Trayvon hands were not bruised.

[HereSince1628]

4. from a google search on forensic & intermediate range

In intermediate-range wounds, the muzzle is held away from the skin but close enough that it still produces powder tattooing. This type of wound is also characterized by numerous reddish-brown to orange-red lesions around the entrance to the wound.

[obamanut2012]

8. 1 centimeter to four feet

Which is a lot of distance to work with.

[backtomn]

22. That's a pretty big spread

Hopefully, they can narrow it down a bit more than that. This covers a lot of different scenarios. Thanks for the info.

[obamanut2012]

26. I know!

And, thanks. i was surprised it could be as close as one cm.

[tech_smythe]

41. 4 feet is still pretty damned close

I hope they throw the book at that racist asshole!

[bec]

54. In this case

The closer the shot the better for Zimmerman. A four foot shot would make his defense, of self defense harder to prove.

[Demoiselle]

71. I just googled it too...got something different

www.forensic-medecine.info/marks-of-violence.html

This particular source says that Close Range means the gun muzzle touches the skin...Intermediate Range can be anywhere from 8 inches to 3.5 feet away from the victim.

(?)

[obamanut2012]

72. Gawd -- I got mine from a forensics site, too

1 cm and eight inches is a big difference!

[robinlynne]

76. you betcha.

[magical thyme]

85. 1 cm seems *awfully* small to classify as "intermediate."

Seriously. Does short range then equal pressed against your flesh?

[alcibiades_mystery]

87. That's what she said

Sorry. Sorry. Couldn't help myself.

[NoGOPZone]

27. Here is a good read

Warning, some of the illustrations are graphic

http://www.archivesofpathology.org/doi/pdf/10.1043/1543-2165%282006%29130%5B1283%3APPOGW%5D2.0.CO%3B2

[Cave_Johnson]

29. Great PDF...

Saving that one.

[magical thyme]

89. 1" to 18" according to a retired NYC coroner

Against skin is contact wound. >18" is distant.

[2pooped2pop]

2. a likely broken nose?

his doctor says. Don't they usually xray for that?

[Gman]

5. maybe, maybe not

there's not much you can do for a broken nose except tape it if it's really out of shape. some have plastic surgery later to straighten it.

Also sounds like Z's doctor is covering his ass by using the word "likely".

[Solomon]

108. Yeah but if you kill someone and rely on self-defense, you take a damn x-ray to prove

your point.

[elias7]

34. Usually it is done, but it is not usually necessary

The reason is because people want to know definitively if the nose is broken or not. But a x ray of a suspected non-displaced nasal fracture (a likely broken nose), is something we learn in training is not a requisite film. A displaced fracture doesn't really require an x ray either, since a prompt ENT referral is indicated.

In this case, If there were two black eyes, it would almost certainly be from a single punch right in the noggin. Broken nose with development of bilateral black eyes over next 24 hours is very common, and generally trivial. ED's see it all the time.

Main point is that if no facial films were obtained, no other facial trauma was likely, eg orbital fractures, cheek or jaw fractures, etc.

Zimmerman got popped in the nose, got pissed, and pulled his gun. His anger and racism took over after that.

[Atypical Liberal]

42. This may be assault, and possibly justification for self-defense with a deadly weapon.

Zimmerman got popped in the nose, got pissed, and pulled his gun. His anger and racism took over after that.

This may be proof of assault and justification for self-defense with a deadly weapon.

[JDPriestly]

45. It would be, except that Zimmerman will have to explain why he left the area around

the clubhouse and found himself in the pathway between the backs of the condos all the way where Trayvon Martin was. What was he doing within four feet of Trayvon? How and why did he get there?

And if Zimmerman sought an encounter with Trayvon Martin, does that qualify as an assault? It may.

Also, why are the injuries to Trayvon Martin's hands so slight? If he had hit Zimmerman that harm, why does Trayvon Martin have only such a small injury on his hand?

Lots of questions. It's too soon to arrive at conclusions.

If you had killed a man and were claiming self-defense based on a broken nose, wouldn't you insist on an x-ray of your injuries? It's very important to do that.

[jwirr]

64. ONLY if he had not been stalking Trayvon.

[Atypical Liberal]

109. One man's stalking is another man's investigating.

[jwirr]

110. Yes and not all have the authority to investigate. Neighborhood Watch does not make you an

investigator - it asks only for you to WATCH not follow.

[LaydeeBug]

112. He *was* not, IS not, and never will be a part of any official Neighborhood watch. nt

[jwirr]

114. I am aware of that and that makes my statement even truer.

[Atypical Liberal]

115. Look, I'm waiting for the courts to settle all the evidence.

But as I said before, there is nothing wrong with approaching someone in your neighborhood and asking them what they are doing. Anyone can "investigate".

The question is, could Zimmerman's "investigating" be construed as stalking such that Martin feared for his safety and so preemptively attacked Zimmerman, assuming he did.

There is nothing wrong with approaching strangers in your neighborhood and asking them what they are doing. We do it in our neighborhood every summer when kids from neighboring neighborhoods try to sneak in and use our community pool.

Last year a neighbor confronted a group of 3 teens who had snuck into the pool after dark and when she told them to leave and that she had called the police as they were leaving one of them peed into the pool right in front of her.

I'm going to wait and see what the courts make of the evidence.

[jwirr]

117. I guess I live in a different world than you do. I would not dream of confronting a stranger just

because he/she was walking in my neighborhood. Now if he/she were breaking into a house in my neighborhood I would call the police. I have lived in both safe and dangerous neighborhoods and we just do not do that around here. Many of our neighborhoods in this community look out for the children in our neighborhoods and these children know that they can ask any of us for help but we do not consider ourselves the crime stoppers. That is what we hire the police for.

I have heard that there is a drug house somewhere near where I live but even then I would not try to handle this on my own. That does not mean that I have never called the police in. When I did they told me not to ever handle things on my own. Apparently in Sanford, Florida it is everyone for themselves.

[slackmaster]

118. I confronted a black man who walked into my workplace about an hour ago

I politely asked if I could help him find someone, and introduced myself.

It's a good thing I acted that way - He turned out to be one of the venture capitalists who started the company.

[jwirr]

119. That is not confronting - that is greeting. GZ chased Trayvon - that is confronting. In my

neighborhood it is not unusual to smile at a stranger and say hello or nod. We would never say "What are you doing here?" as gz did.

[slackmaster]

120. Sun Tsu said, in The Art of War, "Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance...

...without fighting." He said a lot of other things about the importance of doing things other than fighting to get your way, when fighting is not absolutely necessary.

Even Al Capone said a few things about the practicality of using kind words and simple courtesy.

We would never say "What are you doing here?" as gz did.

George Zimmerman is an idiot.

[jwirr]

121. Agreed.

[Atypical Liberal]

123. And that is the key to this situation.

What Zimmerman may have done was stalking and/or confronting in a manner that could be construed as hostile, and he may have provoked a hostile response.

[Atypical Liberal]

122. Not everone can or is expected to rise to the occasion.

As the saying goes, "All that is required for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing."

I don't expect that everyone has the ability or inclination to take a stand when they see or hear something suspicious going on. Just look at Kitty Genovese.

You've no doubt also heard the saying said to people in rape and crime-prevention classes to "trust your gut instinct" when it comes to potential crime situations. People often know, even if only subconsciously, when something "just isn't right".

I believe Zimmerman thought that something wasn't right. It turns out he was wrong.

But I don't see any problem with citizens approaching other citizens and asking them what they are doing, particularly in their own neighborhoods - at face value.

Now, common sense needs to prevail here. If you stalk someone in the process of doing this, you are asking for trouble. Better would be to approach within 50 feet to where you can speak to a person in a civil manner without appearing to be threatening.

Many of our neighborhoods in this community look out for the children in our neighborhoods and these children know that they can ask any of us for help but we do not consider ourselves the crime stoppers. That is what we hire the police for.

I have heard that there is a drug house somewhere near where I live but even then I would not try to handle this on my own. That does not mean that I have never called the police in. When I did they told me not to ever handle things on my own. Apparently in Sanford, Florida it is everyone for themselves.

There is quite a difference from tackling a known drug house to approaching strangers walking the grounds of your neighborhood. I think it's a waste of taxpayer resources to call the police for teenagers trying to sneak into our community pool at night.

[jwirr]

124. I live in a low crime area and many people in this community take walks around the community for

exercise. I would be standing on the sidewalk asking people what they were doing all day long and often in the evening.

When I was told not to handle situations on my own I was living in a more dangerous community and I am an elderly woman. I suspect that had a lot to do with it. Where I live now I would probably get arrested for harrassment if I was confronting people who were just walking by my home. We are not a gated community - in fact there are no gated communities in our town. The sidewalks belong to the city and thus to all the people in the community.

[seasons101]

74. intermediate range

I said from the begining, and I will continue to say it. Zimmerman had no serious injury the night of the murder, and we saw it on the video. But, once they started to build up a case for Zimmerman; they had to inflict those injuries to beef up his case. Thank God, we saw what he looked like 38 minutes later. They went to his doctor; I guess the ER doctors are not good enough.....They should make a movie about this case, really!
This is my statement and I am sticking by it!

[JDPriestly]

50. Two black eyes, a likely broken nose -- and abrasions on his forehead.

Yet Trayvon Martin had only a cut on one finger. The black eyes, nose and forehead abrasions could have resulted from a fall.

I fell on my face and had those kinds of injuries. Seems odd that Trayvon Martin's hands did not show some skinning at the least. It would take quite a blow to break a nose AND cause abrasions on the forehead.

The abrasions on the forehead suggest the fall rather than being hit in the face. The abrasions don't seem to me to be consistent with being hit in the face.

Also, if Trayvon was straddling over Zimmerman when he was shot, then wouldn't Trayvon Martin had fallen, and wouldn't he have had injuries where he fell. Zimmerman's story makes no sense.

[BigD_95]

90. not true

I have been in several fights my teenage years and only time my hands had marks were when I got them cut on peoples teeth. He was a teenager and probably been in other fights. I say that because you dont just start hitting someone who is older then you unless you are really pushed into it. Unless of course its not a big deal to fight someone because you been there & done it before.

If Zimmermen story is true that Martin started hitting him. We know that Martin was a problem kid getting into trouble before & stuff so its likely he did attack Zimmerman first. Its just sad that Zimmerman pulled a gun.

[magical thyme]

94. we know that Martin was NOT a problem kid

"getting into trouble and stuff." Would you care to provide a link to back up that assertion?

We know that other than a bag a mj, Martin had NOT gotten into "trouble and stuff."

We DO know that Zimmerman is the one with the history of violence and assault. And we also learned yesterday that he had prescriptions for two addictive drugs, one an amphetamine stimulant used for ADHD that targets the "impulse control" part of the brain, and the second a sleeping pill. Both of which sometimes have the troublesome side effect of causing mood swings and both of which can cause withdrawal symptoms when stopped.

It is really, really, really too bad the police dept. didn't bother to test Zimmerman for alcohol and drugs. The medtox screen likely would have come up positive.


"I say that because you dont just start hitting someone who is older then you unless you are really pushed into it."

That is very true. And we know from Martin's girlfriend that he was scared, trying to get a way...so likely felt really pushed into a fight.

Unlike Zimmerman, he had no known history of getting into fights.

[JDPriestly]

101. I don't think you can follow someone who is where he lawfully is entitled to be

with a gun at your waist and then, after you shoot the person you followed, claim to have shot in self-defense.

The big question here is why Zimmerman followed Trayvon Martin after being told that 911 did not want him to do so, and why there was a confrontation that may or may not have lead to a fight and Zimmerman's shooting of Trayvon Martin?

That's the big question. Neighborhood Watch people are not supposed to act like vigilantes or police deputies. They are supposed to "watch" and call the police. We have Neighborhood Watch in our neighborhood. It does not make police officers of us all.

So, Zimmerman will have to explain his conduct -- and he may be able to do it. We shall see.

[magical thyme]

91. even if they x-ray

fractures can be microscopic and not at all clear on the radiograph. So likely means it looks like there may be a fracture, but it's not discernible enough to confirm.

[quakerboy]

116. Nope

Not unless there is some reason to think its broken further up into the skull. Or at least thats what I told when my nose was likely broken. I never got the black eyes and all that can go with it, but boy did it hurt, and I could realign it and point my nose slightly this way or that.

That said... the next day? If I had just shot a kid in cold blood, or even semiheated egomaniacal blood, I think that showing up with injuries the following day for a DR to verify would be up high on my to do list. Whether I had left the scene with those injuries or not.

[JI7]

3. This Family Physician like Joe Oliver ?

[Blue_Tires]

6. a foot? five feet? ten feet??

what is "medium?"

[Posteritatis]

14. Well within what layfolk would call "point blank range." (nt)

[magical thyme]

96. intermediate is 1" - 18" per former NYC coroner nt

[MrSlayer]

7. Intermediate range.

In intermediate-range wounds, the muzzle is held away from the skin but close enough that it still produces powder tattooing. This type of wound is also characterized by numerous reddish-brown to orange-red lesions around the entrance to the wound.


http://www.relentlessdefense.com/forensics/gunshot-wounds/

[jwirr]

65. I would imagine that the actual distance would depend on how much powder etc is there. I hope

they can determine this.

[obamanut2012]

9. Interesting Zimmerman's are from a personal physican

If there are no hospital or EMT reports about his broken nose, black eyes, and scalp cuts -- three injuries impossible not to see -- nor LEO photos, I am calling BS. Especially since:

1. The video does not show these injuries, and

2. Zimmerman wasn't seen in public for weeks.

[peacebird]

11. Exactly. BS.

[robinlynne]

77. if it is true he will definitely have taken photos!

[peacebird]

10. His personal physicians report a day later says... Wtf? Georgie got his dad to smack him perhaps,

Cuz there were no black eyes in the police images. And eyes bruise up fast.

[obamanut2012]

12. Or he had nothing at all

He was AWOL for several weeks.

Wouldn't you take photos of the bruising and selling and pain just mysteriously showed up after you left the PD? Or maybe even call the cops and tell them, so they could take photos, or go to the ER or an Urgent Care for Xrays? Broken noses can be dangerous, and black eyes can cause broken orbitals, which are also really dangerous, and often require surgery.

[AtheistCrusader]

49. Not always true.

Last time I hit a tree on my bike, the my eyes didn't blacken until the next day.
Can't really see a broken nose anyway.

On the other hand, a cut that is bleeding on the head, should produce a visible blood track, head wounds bleed like a bitch. I definitely don't see any blood on the back of his head.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

13. Martin only had a 1/4 inch abrasion on his finger?

And he gave Zimmerman a broken nose, two black eyes and cuts to the scalp, fists of steel?

[Baitball Blogger]

15. +1

[Bolo Boffin]

16. One. One single abrasion on his left ring finger.

Good God. Can you believe it?

[ck4829]

18. I get abrasions that size on my fingers all the time (From work)

Better check to see if I'm beating up wannabe neighborhood watch guys in my sleep or something.

[Grassy Knoll]

21. That "Family Dr." Is in deep Shit....

1/4 of an inch is a small paper cut, than the thickness of an iPhone.

[DallasNE]

28. That Abrasion Could Have Been The Result

Of him falling on the sidewalk after being shot.

Lastly, because Martin was wearing a hoodie it makes judging the distance more difficult. None of the write-ups translates intermediate distance into a range so it doesn't shed much light.

[uppityperson]

31. He must've hit zimmy with the package of skittles, right?

I mean, skittles are kind of hard? just in case

[1StrongBlackMan]

35. Well ...

I could see that ... it only takes one punch to break a nose; the black eyes come from the broken nose; and the cuts to the scalp come from Z falling straight back, hitting his head on the concrete.

My only question is whether Martin was a righty or a lefty. People, unless martial arts trained, instinctively strike with their dominant hand. And, most untrained people, when stressed, couldn't generate enough force with their non-dominant hand to break a nose AND knock someone straight back, even with a lucky shot.

So, if Martin was a righty (and untrained), I call B.S. to my above causes of injury.

{Disclosure: 1StrongBlackMan - Martial Arts, Belted; College Bar Bouncer, 4 years; Fought waaayyyy too many street fights in my youth.}

[zeemike]

69. That was my first thought too

Is he a lefty...because if not then the small cut on his ring finger is meaningless.
But you got to admit that the best way to end a fight it a punch to the noes...but that ends it because the flow of blood is great and it gets all over you....Zimmerman should have had a lot of it on him.
It is bullshit...they are trying to muddy the waters and divide us up into camps of guilt and innocence and make a spectacle out of it...and let Zimmerman walk.

[progressivebydesign]

78. you're assuming the report of those injuries is true...

And i don't think it's true. A doctor cannot diagnose a broken anything without an xray. Where are the photos of the black eyes? I remember the day after the shooting, someone from that neighborhood made a comment that the guy had gone home and roughed himself up after the fact to help his claims of self defense. There was not even a mark on his nose in those videos.

[Nine]

38. I'd love to see someone do a graphic of that.

Find a guy about Martin's size, draw a quarter-inch mark on his left ring finger, and take a picture. Caption it "This is what a quarter inch abrasion looks like."

[JDPriestly]

46. The abrasion could have come when Trayvon Martin fell.

[FogerRox]

70. Yes, Martin belonged to a secret Ninja society

Zimmerman had uncovered this cult and the Ninja cult decided to eliminate Zimmerman. Obviously self defense.

[Major Hogwash]

17. CBS News reported tonight that they were "only inches apart" when Zimmerman fired his weapon.

They also said that Zimmerman was lying on his back, with Martin straddling him, and that Martin was hit in the left ventricle, one of the chambers of the heart, but did not die immediately.
Instead, he laid over on one side and said, "that's the end" or "you got me". That comes from the autopsy and the police report.

But, that line about what he supposedly said doesn't make any sense.
Because it makes Martin sound like he was a villian out of an old 1930's James Cagney film.
So, the court is going to have to decide this case, and hopefully the defense team and the police department will stop leaking information to the press.

[Bolo Boffin]

19. "You shot me" makes more sense than "you got me."

"That's the end"? That's totally off base.

[Major Hogwash]

23. That does make more sense.

But the problem is, this is all unsubstantiated rumors that are being leaked to the press in order for them to repeat it, without the due process of law.
This sort of "news" should be kept behind the doors of the court room and exposed during a trial where everyone is sworn in before they testify.
Even if Scott Pelley is considered to be "an honest reporter", he wasn't under oath.
So, I was kind of taken aback when Pelley reported it tonight.
He said it in a way that made it sound more like gossip than cold facts, and this case is going to be hard enough to deal with, without that kind of crap being reported before Zimmerman has his day in court.

[Bolo Boffin]

24. "all unsubstantiated rumors" - right, absolutely. n/t

[JDPriestly]

47. Earlier, I heard that Zimmerman was standing, straddling Trayvon Martin.

That was supposed to have been how the police found him. I think an eyewitness reported something like that to 911.

How is it possible that Trayvon Martin hit Zimmerman so hard that he fell yet had only a small abrasion on one finger of his hand? Makes no sense.

[Orangepeel]

59. How would the autopsy and the police report know what a dead man said?

That would have to come from Zimmerman's statement, which should, let's say, be taken with a grain or two of salt. "Hit in the left ventricle" seems like the only thing in that CBS report that could be taken as fact.

[jwirr]

66. I do not buy the "lying on his back with Trayvon staddling him". When Trayvon was shot did he bleed?

If so wouldn't the blood have dripped on gz's shirt?

[PavePusher]

82. Gunshot wounds do not fountain blood like in movies.

Very often there is little external bleeding, and it frequently takes some time to be visible.

[magical thyme]

97. except this is a shot in the left ventricle

The right ventricle pumps blood from the body through the pulmonary arteries into the lungs. It flows from the lungs through 4 pulmonary veins into the left atrium, and from there passes into the left ventricle. The left ventricle then contracts and pushes the blood into the aorta.

So the left ventricle is receiving a lot of blood from 4 major veins. I can't believe there wouldn't have been a significant amount of blood, either already in the ventricle or pumped into it immediately after it was shot open.

There is not a lot of distance from the pumping right ventricle through the lungs and back out again.

[PavePusher]

102. True, but...

bullet wounds, unless made by truely enormous calibers, do not generally leave gaping wounds. The flesh gets pressed closed by surrounding tissue after the initial bullet puncture, which slows external bleeding. There is a lot of extra space around the heart and lungs to give space for the contraction/expansion cycles. Bleeding from the heart/immediate vessels has to fill this space before forcing it's way out the wound channel.

Short story, plenty of to get shot, fall backwards and not bleed on someone underneath.

Edit: http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=9128

[magical thyme]

104. I'm aware of the anatomy of the heart

However the funeral director described it as a large chest wound.

And the shot was fired from inches away. A 9mm is powerful enough to penetrate a horse's skull (equine euthanasia by gunshot requires a 38 minimum).

"gunshot wounds typically involve a large degree of nearby tissue disruption"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_trauma

Unless the bullet slipped between ribs, I would expect significant damage caused by splintered bone.
But I'm not familiar with gunshot wounds (fortunately).

I believe the police reports say that Martin fell sideways, not backwards.

[texshelters]

20. Good discussion, and

the evidence doesn't ameliorate the fact that Zimmerman went after Martin and wasn't "standing his ground" at all. All he had to do is wait for the police cruiser to arrive and talk to the young man. Being paranoid and beaten in a mysterious way doesn't mean you're innocent.

PTxS

[BigD_95]

92. Zimmerman had every right to follow Martin

no matter what the 911 person said

[magical thyme]

98. Not necessarily

another thread here describes someone who was being followed, who called the police on her cell phone. There were there within a minute, and her follower was arrested.

Seeming to follow somebody while minding your own business while you happen to go the same way is not the same thing as chasing somebody.

[fascisthunter]

105. no he fucking did not

[texshelters]

111. Having the right doesn't make it right

or are you into stalking and hunting humans?

PTxS

[CreekDog]

25. Gee, Zimmerman said Martin was reaching for his gun, but...

if he shot him at intermediate range, there's no way Martin could have been near enough to the gun to have gotten it.

and from intermediate range, could Zimmerman even ascertain that Martin was going for his gun? at all?

and a million more observations that amount to calling BS on Zimmerman again...but I can't do this all night.

[mactime]

36. intermediate range

can be as close as one cm. So definitely close enough for Trayvon to take the gun

[CreekDog]

37. yeah i see that now from yours and other posts, thanks for correction

[Hectic Eclectic]

30. I want to see the trajectory of the bullet...

... will tell more of a story. So from this "intermediate range" we can determine that GZ did not shove the gun into his belly (as if Martin was straddling and leaning over Zimmerman)...

[-..__...]

32. Seeds of "reasonable doubt" are being planted.

Granted... there is still more evidence/court documents to be made public, but at least for now

Zimmermans claims, are becoming more reliable than Internet speculation.

[intheflow]

61. How so?

Fact: he shot and killed Martin after being told by the police dispatcher not to follow Martin. How does any of this strengthen his claims of self-defense? If nothing else, it bolsters the defense claims that Martin could have been standing his ground after being pursued by a strange man with a gun.

[slackmaster]

62. The assumption that a police dispatcher's suggestion carries any legal weight is one aspect...

...of this sad case that has always troubled me.

Zimmerman was NOT told not to follow Trayvon Martin. The dispatcher said "OK, we don't need you to do that." It was good advice that Zimmerman (apparently) decided to ignore.

Zimmerman's defense could prevail if (and IMO only if) it can convince the judge at pretrial, or the jury at trial, that Trayvon Martin instigated the physical fight without provocation. That is, he attacked Zimmerman when Zimmerman was not engaged in any threatening behavior. For example, if Zimmerman was walking away.

I don't pretend to know exactly what happened, but I agree that the release of this particular batch of information is intended to sow the seeds of a reasonable doubt.

Before anyone jumps all over my shit for "defending" Zimmerman, I'll state one more time that I think Zimmerman was in the wrong because he instigated the entire interaction without justification.

[jwirr]

68. I do not think it makes any difference if the dispatcher had authority. It shows that gz was in

pursuit of Trayvon. Something that the Neighborhood Watch program does not include. When does a stranger following you in a threatening way - first by car and then on foot - become stalking? This is exactly why NW officially tells its real volunteers not to take the law into their own hands. Also SYG laws are meant for someone who has actually had a criminal act against themselves. Such as a homeowner who has been robbed. What reason did gz have to follow Trayvon after he called the police?

[intheflow]

95. An armed man following an unarmed, innocent man is provocation.

Not saying that you're a Zimmerman defender in any way, I just think the defense is grasping at straws.

[slackmaster]

100. Yes, but we don't know when it became apparent that Z was armed

The assumption that he was pursuing Trayvon with the gun drawn is another one that has been repeated many times with nothing to back it up.

[magical thyme]

99. Zimmerman claimed in his hearing that Martin was circling his car

not only does it not fit with witness accounts (Martin's girlfriend on cell phone), it begs the question, if Zimmerman was so afraid why did he leave his car? And if he felt compelled to ignore police advice, why not have his gun drawn just to be safe?

[BigD_95]

93. Fact: Zimmerman was in his rights to follow Martin

even after being told by the police dispatcher not to follow Martin.

[fascisthunter]

106. NOT FACT... just your biased OPINION

[-..__...]

103. Right now...

this is the only fact that is indisputable and not open to speculation or guess work...

Fact: he shot and killed Martin

Until more documents are released, I'm not going go out on a limb and categorically state any opinion on Zimmermans guilt or innocence.

How does any of this strengthen his claims of self-defense? If nothing else, it bolsters the defense claims that Martin could have been standing his ground after being pursued by a strange man with a gun

Who's saying that Martin was "pursued by a strange man with a gun".

The media? The Attorney Generals office? The police? Eye witness's?

I mean... I'm just trying to visualize that description and I come up with a blood crazed
madman hot on the heels of a fleeing teenager while openly brandishing/waving a handgun around.

That's not the way it happened (at least according to Zimmermans testimony).

Personally... I think what is going to be pivotal in Zimmermans defense is at what point did he
cease to be a perceived threat to Martin, and at what point did either Martin or Zimmerman
have the opportunity to withdraw from the situation.

[Suji to Seoul]

33. again, it seems facts and reality have a liberal bias.

And Zimmy's stories seem to be falling apart quicker now.

[caseymoz]

39. Well, he's going to trial

which is really all anybody could ask at this point, and definitely more than I thought would happen.

[leftynyc]

56. Unless the judge throws out the case

Which he/she may do due to the SYG law. There is a chance there will be no trial at all.

[caseymoz]

113. I realize that, but for now, it's okay. nt

[Thinkingabout]

40. Maybe the injuries Zimmerman has suffered is from Trayvon falling on him after Zimmerman shot him

What I don't get is why was Zimmerman's clothes not bloody when he got to the station? In 90 seconds there was not a lot of time to pound Zimmerman's head on concrete which was not present when the shot occurred, if Trayvon got in one hit, good for him.

[JDPriestly]

48. The video we saw was black and white. You might not see the colors.

[robinlynne]

43. what is a likely broken nose? maybe it is and maybe it is not? if my doctor told me that and didnt

tell me yes or no, I would get another doctor.

You have a likely broken nose.

[slackmaster]

58. I was told exactly that by a doctor once. She sent me to a radiology lab for a CAT scan.

It turned out that I did have a broken nose.

[robinlynne]

75. exactly. If a doctor thinks you have a broken bone, you get an xray. the docotr needs to know if it

is broken or not. You cant have a diagnosis of likely broken bone.

[slackmaster]

80. I believe that if I had declined the CAT scan my medical record would show something like that

i.e. a possible or likely broken nose.

[ZombieHorde]

44. "a small abrasion, no more than a quarter-inch in size – on his left ring finger below the knuckle"

Compared to...

a likely broken nose, swelling, two black eyes and cuts to the scalp

Seems off to me. Seems like Martin's hands would be more damaged, but I am the first to admit that I am not an expert.

[sinkingfeeling]

63. Was Trayvon left or right handed? I doubt if I could break someone's

nose with my left hand, as I'm right-handed.

[ZombieHorde]

81. I don't know. If he was frightened, then he may have been

able to punch harder than normal. However, if he was hitting extra hard, then he would probably have more damage on his hands, but again, I am no expert. I am just speculating.

[solarman350]

51. Wasn't Martin Shot in the Back or the Back of His Head?

Murder Suspect zimmerman was seen straddling an on-the-ground Martin by a number of witnesses. Now, So, how does Martin reach around and try to grab a gun in that position? Murder suspect zimmerman's story has more and more holes in it every time he makes the "news." Those EMTs are key here as well. They would have under police supervision, been required to examine and possibly administer first aid to murder suspect zimmerman at the scene of the crime and/or on the way to a hospital. Thirty four or so minutes after zimmerman kills Martin, he's seen in a greyscale (aka "black and white&quot closed circuit video being led into a police station in handcuffs. No police in the video are wearing gloves...which is required in this type of situation. Looks to me like a lethal hate crime (punishable by death). Looks also like at least 2nd degree murder or manslaughter. All the cover-up (aka "shoddy police work&quot , and special treatment (personal physician, not taking zimmerman into custody until a court hearing) appears to be due to murder suspect zimmerman's father being a retired judge calling in long overdue markers. All of murder suspect zimmerman's lies, after-the-fact self-inflicted injuries, and phony injury photos just won't fly with a sane jury. And don't forget the 911 calls and the phone records (zimmerman, his father, and Martin's). Problem I see coming is where to find an unbiased and sane set of jurists if and when this goes to trial.

Here's (supposively) the police report. You can download and examine it (link on right side of page):

http://www.scribd.com/doc/86948628/Trayvon-Martin-Police-Report


Added Info:

Timothy Smith, the first officer to arrive at the scene, reported finding Zimmerman standing near Martin, who was lying face down in the grass and unresponsive. At that time, Zimmerman stated to Smith that he had shot Martin and was still armed.

Ricardo Ayala, the second officer to arrive that night, noticed Officer Smith had Zimmerman in custody, then observed Martin lying FACE DOWN in the grass and attempted to get a response from him.


Zimmerman was treated and released by paramedics while still at the scene of the incident.

-->What does their report state, and how about their photos of zimmerman?

The lead homicide investigator on the case, Chris Serino, filed an affidavit the night of the incident saying he was unconvinced by Zimmerman's account and recommended charging Zimmerman with manslaughter. He was informed by State Attorney Wolfinger's office that there was not enough evidence to obtain a conviction. Zimmerman was eventually released without charges.

-->So, this is based on the ability to get at a later time, a conviction and not the crime itself? zimmerman admitted to officers on the scene that he killed Martin. That alone should have been enough to arrest and jail him until arraignment.


The FBI may consider charging Zimmerman with a federal hate crime because of the allegation that he may have profiled and stalked Martin due to his race. The second degree murder charge Zimmerman is facing could result in a life sentence. If Zimmerman is found guilty of a federal hate crime involving murder, he could get the death penalty.

Zimmerman's arraignment is scheduled for May 29, 2012.

An investigator for the prosecution, also admitted at the hearing, that he did not know whether Martin or Zimmerman threw the first punch. The investigator also stated that Zimmerman's claim of Martin slamming his head against the sidewalk, was "not consistent with the evidence they found."

Zimmerman was armed.

Martin was not.

Zimmerman is a grown man.

Martin was a minor.

The evidence does not show even one injury which Martin inflicted upon Zimmerman that was severe enough to warrant a bandaid by EMTs the night in question.

The stand your ground law requires that the shooter not be the aggressor, yet Zimmerman is the aggressor in that he followed Martin quite a distance without the disclosure that he was on a Neighborhood Watch "mission".

Martin was visiting a resident of that community and had every right to be there NO MATTER his size or Tweet handle.

Anyone being followed relentlessly by someone who admittedly did not disclose the reason, has reason to fear their pursuor.


The hard evidence will decide this case and imo, there is very, very little to support Zimmerman's claim that he was in fear for his life.

Zimmerman had clear options other than to shoot Martin in the heart.

There is no evidence showing injuries sufficient to warrant Zimmerman's claim that he needed to kill to preserve his life

The intermediate distance between them of at least 12 inches past the end of the gun shows there was room for other options vs. a kill shot.

Zimmerman was not fatally injured or even remotely close to it.

Act like a murderer of a minor without evidence of justifiable cause, and go to prison like one!!!

[AynRandCollectedSS]

53. Absolutely what I was thinking!

An enthusiastic +1!

[Baclava]

57. no, not the head - he was shot once in the chest

"Details from Trayvon Martin’s autopsy show the bullet entered the left side of his chest, and shattered the ventrical, one of his heart’s two large chambers but the round did not leave his body.

The reports also noted the fatal wound’s surrounded by a two-by-two inch pattern called stippling, caused by gunpower burns. It suggests Zimmerman fired *inches* away from the teenager."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57435800/zimmerman-martins-last-words-were-its-over/

[Amster Dan]

52. "prepared by his [Zimmerman's] personal physician"

Well that smells to High Heaven

[progressivebydesign]

79. +1 Have a hard time believing you could break someone's nose without even a bruise on ur hand n/t

[PavePusher]

83. Breaking someones nose is very easy.

You can do it with your fingers.

[slackmaster]

84. I broke my own nose using only my face

And a terrazzo tile floor.

[PavePusher]

88. I've used multiple items....

Soccor ball, rock cliff face, karate sparring (2X).

For some reason, it never feels less painful after any repetition...

[marble falls]

55. 'intermediate range,' .....

Says "guilty' to me.

[slackmaster]

60. I concluded a long time ago that Zimmerman was in the wrong because he started the confrontation

Please explain why you think "intermediate range" points to his guilt (on the murder charge, I presume) as opposed to super-close range or several feet away.

[Myrina]

67. Am I the only one who suspects that Zimmerman 'injured himself'

(if indeed he really did have a broken nose and cuts etc) ... to truly make it look like 'self defense' ?

[slackmaster]

73. You are far from alone. On other threads several interesting theories have been advanced.

Zimmerman had his dad beat him up.

Zimmerman hired someone to beat him up.

Zimmerman let the police beat him up.

Zimmerman's doctor is corrupt and there were never any injuries.

[kristinrn]

126. I think the same thing!

I can picture it clearly. It's the only thing that makes sense. George Zimmerman has already shot and killed Trayvon. Zimmerman needs to create a different scenario, so he quickly proceeds to smash himself in the nose...probably with an object or structure...and bash the back of his head against the concrete. My understanding: no wounds on Trayvon's hands. True or false??? Logic: Zimmerman would gladly do harm to himself to cover his backside and create a self-defense story. He feels justified; feels that he was protecting his neighborhood. And it WAS TRAYVON who was screaming for help! If marijuana was in Trayvon's system, most of us know that this does not create rage! And Trayvon was smaller than Zimmerman, and in no position to do anything but protect himself that night...which he was not successful in doing.

[happyslug]

86. Lets look at the two possible situation that may have occurred.

First, lets look at BOTH sides will agree on when this case goes to trial. First he saw Trayvon acting suspiciously. He called 911, was "advised" (not told) NOT to follow Trayvon. Zimmerman ignored that advice and followed Trayvon.

Zimmerman's and the Prosecutors version will vary from this point onward. First Zimmerman's position. Zimmerman said he followed Trayvon, then Trayvon turned and attacked him. Knocking Zimmerman onto the ground. Thus explaining the broken nose and other injuries on Zimmerman and lack of evidence of a fight on Trayvon. Once on the ground, Zimmerman either fired from that position or stood up a fired to prevent further attacks by Trayvon. Once Trayvon was shot, Zimmerman walked over to Trayvon and stood over him in case Trayvon resumed the attack on Zimmerman, Zimmerman only standing down once other people arrived and the place was "secured".

The prosecution is going to say that is all poppycock. Zimmerman followed Trayvon and some how comforted Trayvon. Most likely by putting has hand or hands on Trayvon and yelling "what are you doing here". Once he was grabbed by Zimerman, Trayvon reacted by knocking Zimmerman down, causing the injuries to Zimmerman and the lack of injuries on Trayvon hands. Then as Trayvon stood there seeing what Zimmerman would do next, Zimmerman pulled his gun and shot Trayvon.

Notice the key is who attack who first. Merely following someone is NOT a crime thus if Trayvon confronted Zimmerman and did something physical, Trayvon is the attacking and Zimmerman had the right to defend himself. On the other hand if Zimmerman put his hands on Trayvon OR did anything else to Trayvon of a physical nature, then Zimmerman is the attacker and it was Trayvon who had the right to stand his ground.

We can debate this till the cows come home, but until the trial we will have to wait to see HOW Zimmerman's attorney and the Prosecutors present their case. Everything else is mere opinion and I am one of those person sick and tired of such rants. Lets wait for the trial before we start another thread on this subject.