GOP debate fact check: Was Marco Rubio right about welders vs. philosophers?

[Attorney in Texas]

Source: CBS News

Instead of raising the minimum wage, Rubio said the U.S. should focus on tax reform, regulatory reform and higher education reform -- including a more robust embrace of vocational training.

"Welders make more money than philosophers," he said. By encouraging Americans to get vocational training, he argued, "We will be able to increase wages for millions of Americans without making anyone worse off."

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, there are in fact 849,930 workers in welding or a related category, such as soldering or brazing. Their annual mean wage falls between $36,450 and $40,040.

Meanwhile, the BLS says there are 23,210 postsecondary philosophy and religion teachers (probably the closest one can be to a professional "philosopher&quot . Their annual mean wage is $71,350.

Read more: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/republican-debate-fact-check-was-marco-rubio-right-about-welders-versus-philosophers/

[drray23]

1. on average he may be wrong

However, there are some welders that are making high 5 and even 6 figures. Some welding jobs are really specialized and pay extremely well. For example industrial pipe welders in the oil industry, welders in the aerospace industry (where one has to make weld with aluminum or various metal alloys that are hard to work with), welders in the nuclear industry where welds for containment vessels have to be perfect, etc.. etc..

[persuadable]

36. Unionized welders can make good money

Non Union welders not so much. It is the Union that makes the difference.

[Plucketeer]

49. An interesting "aside" to your specialty welder argument....

There was a prototype fighter plane developed during WWII - one of many that never got into production. The particular plane I'm talking of here, is the XP-56 - nicknamed the Black Bullet because of it's bullet-shaped fuselage. Only two of these were ever built and weird flight characteristics kept them from being produced for combat.

What's curious is that these planes used more magnesium in their structure than most aircraft of the day. And Northrup developed special techniques for welding the stuff - which if you know about it, seems a bit crazy given the way magnesium will blaze once it's set alight!
So here we are, 75 years later and one of the Black Bullets that's survived to this day (it was retained by the Smithsonian after WWII) is in need of restoration. Trouble is - after all these years since that specialized welding know-how was devised - they can't find anyone who knows how to do it today so that restoration of the XP-56 can commence!

[exboyfil]

2. Philosophy students also have some of the highest MCAT scores

Many go on to professional schools like Law and Medicine.


http://dailynous.com/value-of-philosophy/charts-and-graphs/

For the MCAT they only rank behind Physics, Mathematics, and Engineering.

They are the highest for the LSAT (tied with Economics).

They are the highest for composite GRE score.

They are also the highest earners for non-STEM majors.

[potone]

12. I don't know about the MCAT.

But the statistic is wrong for the LSAT. Classicists come in first for that and philosophers are second.

[exboyfil]

13. Probably a different study

and you are right that Classicists would have an excellent background for the LSAT. I know my Latin helped me quite a bit on the ACT.

[DesertFlower]

3. i disagree with him about the minimum wage,

but i agree we do need more welders, etc.

i'm old --- 74. back in the late 50s -- early 60s we had some high schools that taught trades. i knew several people who studied beauty culture in HS. then took the test. it was just like going to beauty school without paying for it. there were high schools that taught auto mechanics. we need more of this.

my late husband learned about computers when he was 19 -- not in HS but a private school his parents paid for. he started with IBM as a computer operator and worked his way up to consulting systems engineer. when he pased in 2012 after almost 43 years with the company he was making $150,000 a year plus great benefits. i'm collecting his pension and got his 401k which was a substantial amount. even now IBM gives me $1,187 a year in a HCRA.

he loved his job. used to say "i can't believe they pay me to do this". i will say he was very good at what he did and avoided many cutbacks.

[TexasBushwhacker]

54. Unfortunately, teaching trades in high schools

is expensive and those programs are often the first to get cut. The instructors would generally teach 3 or 4 classes and the rest of the time they were out checking on students at their part time jobs. The idea that every kid should be able to go to college started in the 80s and vocational programs got cut. It's a shame.

[JenniferJuniper]

4. Stupid statement

We can't all be welders. Someone still needs to clean his hotel room tomorrow morning.

[DesertFlower]

5. you missed the point. not everyone

wants to go to college.

[JenniferJuniper]

7. No, I didn't

The broader issue is his argument that the minimum wage doesn't need to be raised.

Context - "If I thought raising the minimum wage would make people successful I'd be for it, but it makes people more expensive than machines consequently giving businesses more incentive to replace their workers with automated processes."

[DesertFlower]

11. of course i agree about the minimum wage.

[JenniferJuniper]

14. and someone needs to wash dishes and clean hotel rooms

Society won't run on welding alone.

[immoderate]

6. Welders make about $32 B. Philosophers make $1.6 B.

Many ways to slice that. I, for one, feel there is already a surplus of philosophers.

--imm

[kairos12]

8. A philosopher, a welder and Rubio walk into a bar...

the philosopher says I don't drink so I Kant be here

the welder says in the long arc of my career I never expected to meet you guys

Rubio says my credit cards are overdrawn you guys got to pay.

[Bigredhunk]

25. :-)

Nice!

[underpants]

32. Well done

[PosterChild]

34. What are you.....

...... some sort of philosopher ?

[Paladin]

40. Nice. (nt)

[forsaken mortal]

9. Could be true in some ways

Superficially at least, he might have a point that you're more likely to be hired as a welder if you're a welding student than as a philosopher if you're a philosophy major, but nothing prevents the philosophy student from branching out into other fields. Of course, with the right wing in the country wanting to gut higher education and basically turn it into an extremely expensive, high-stakes endeavor, majoring in philosophy might not be the most economical choice. It could be absorbed though if we had free tuition at public universities. Education shouldn't really be strictly about job training, but people seem to be equating the two (can't blame them with the climbing costs of tuition now).

[Yupster]

62. Talk to a welder at lunch

and you might find he's also a philosopher.

Talk to a philosopher at lunch, and it's probably less likely he's also a welder.

I set up 401 (k) plans, and can honestly say I've never met a welder making less than 40 k. Part-timers I guess.

[forest444]

10. Narco Rubio probably knew that well ahead of time.

But he also knows that his brainwashed washed base hates anyone that even looks like a philosopher.

He knows what he's doing. Unfortunately for him, his outlaw in-laws did not.

http://www.businessinsider.com/florida-senator-marco-rubios-brother-in-law-is-a-convicted-drug-trafficker-2011-7

[exboyfil]

15. I don't like using the wrong doing

of family members to judge an individual. My mom is a horrible racist. I would hate to be judged by her actions.

[Darb]

37. Being a racist is not illegal.

Unfortunately. I wonder what kind of drugs Rubio's bro was "running".

[kairos12]

38. Narco Rubio. LOL. Thanks.

[L. Coyote]

16. #Philosophers4Rubio so appreciate someone finally standing up for them

so they can make more than welders

[Recursion]

17. I would say that "philosophy professor" and "philosopher" are different jobs

The only people who are paid to be philosophers that I know are professional ethicists (yes, that exists). Though they do make more than welders.

[christx30]

58. But what demand is there for a professional ethicist?

I'm just asking because an employed welder makes more than an unemployed ethicist.

[valerief]

18. No one thinks Rubio is smart or honest, do they? nt

[Downwinder]

21. Sly comes to mind.

[cheapdate]

19. Welding can be difficult, demanding and dangerous work.

It's definitely not for me.

[mrmpa]

20. Why can't someone with a philosophy degree..........

be a welder? What is so wrong with a person being educated?

[daleo]

22. If people flood into welding

Wages will go down in that trade. That's supply and demand.

[JoeyT]

23. Speaking as a welder, some of us double as philosophers in our free time.

We might not be particularly good at it, but we give it a shot.

I also don't know a single welder that makes $36000 a year. I mean...maybe a guy in a fab shop that can't pass any tests, but when you're figuring up the income for surgeons you don't add in Stitches Jimmy that doesn't have a fancy-ass degree or that useless book learnin', but if you know the password will pull out a bullet or stitch up a knife wound for fifty bucks and two grams of meth. When you're figuring up the average income for lawyers, you don't factor in every idiot on the internet that fires off a badly spelled cease and desist claiming to be a lawyer while demanding the offending party cease their "liballous" behavior.

Real welders? Ones that can actually pass tests? You're looking at $50k-60k a year in states with low costs of living minimum. A philosopher would break down and cry if he saw a professional combo or tube welder's paycheck. I've seen those guys bring home $5k a week or more after taxes on 7/12s or 7/16s. (Sadly, I ain't that kind of welder.) Mostly because the tests are damned difficult to pass, so they're hard to find.

So he's not exactly wrong about what welders make, but not really right either.

We still need to hike up the minimum wage, though. No one should work 30-40 hours a week and not be able to afford the essentials.

[underpants]

33. I was going to say that's really low wage bracket for welders

<$40k for a welder?

[Kilgore]

44. A good ASME Section IX welder cand easily make

90K per year in straight and OT pay.

Serious respect for anyone doing tube repairs while hanging in a basket inside a boiler or crawling a steam drum. They earn every penny they make.

[yellowcanine]

24. Not if the welder is a robot.

Just sayin.

[Myrina]

45. ^^ this ^^

What good is it to have several million welders in the US, if there are no welding jobs because the GOP either sent them all overseas, or their cronies' companies replaced the humans with high-tech machinery?

[phantom power]

50. In the same topic they tried to say we can't pay people more because "replaced by robots" thats why!

Not all welding jobs are (currently) done by robots, but as with all their answers it left the impression that nobody had really thought any of it through.

[PatrickforO]

26. Nice fact check.

However, our economy needs skilled tradespeople. Welders, machinists, HVAC installers, plumbers and electricians. Other jobs in short supply, at least in my neck of the woods, are accountants, software development engineers and creative design people.

I'm not a big Rubio fan, but there's a heck of a lot more demand for these skills I've mentioned than for philosophers.

We can't be totally business driven - our kids need to be well rounded. But...nothing wrong with being a welder.

[restorefreedom]

60. absolutely. in addition, trade jobs

cannot be outsourced like many professional jobs....there are radiologists in india now reading xrays. plus 4 year college is not for everyone.

[Puppyjive]

27. All jobs matter

It's not the majority who want to deny living wages. It is those at the top making the decisions.

[ErikJ]

28. lol. Carly Fiorino and Carl Icahn were philosophy majors

[napi21]

29. His comparison may be wrong, but I highly recomment vocational training.

There are lots of people who don't want to attend a 4 year college. either because of cost or because they don't want that kind of training. My son attended Aircraft Maintenance training and has a great job with a major carrier, and loves it. His edu. cost $5,000 and 2 years and he makes $100,000+.

What everyone should be able to do i pursue the career they'll love to do. There resally is truth to the quote "Do something you love and you'll never WORK a day of your life." (It's always fun!)

[wordpix]

52. I agree 100% and congrats to your son

[trillion]

30. muhahahahhahaha

And typcal GOP, anti higher education and trying to keep everyone dumb by getting rid of education. Dismantling the colleges is something they've wanted to do for decades.

[CBGLuthier]

31. I know many people who were fully qualified welders. Most of them drive trucks for a living.

Try as they might this isn't the 20th century. we will always need some who can weld but not like the old days. Unless we all want to start our own shop building silly motorcycles for rich people.

[Kilgore]

43. Tell them to move here

If they can make X-Ray quality API or ASME welds and pass the drug test, there is work in Washington.

[napi21]

59. Mostwelding is now done through automation.

My husband was a welder for quite a few years. He worked for Westinghouse in Pgh. Then Westinghouse closed their operations there and moved south. The facilities and the equipment was very old and they didn't want to pour any more money into it. They built nice new facilities in the south, in several states. That was in the 70's. He got a few other jobs, but nothing like the wages and a solid company as Westinghouse was. Finally he went back into meat cutting, a job he did before he attended welding school. he actually did ok, but of course the $$ wasn't as good, and he no longer had weekends off. He retired as an assistant mgr. in 2005. The candidate who boasted about welding jobs was living in the past....decades ago!

[PosterChild]

35. Not only that, but philosophers....

...are dangerous, too!

[Woodwizard]

39. Trade School

My high school had several vo tech courses, I took cabinet making, 35 years later I am still doing it and have my own business. If our school did not have it you could be bussed to BOCES


Just basic tool knowledge to do home repairs is lacking with the dwindling of education programs for useful skills.

Not all of us want desk jobs.

[Chan790]

41. I would disagree with CBS on one point.

I have an undergraduate degree in political theory...most people don't know what that is and I'm not going to explain in any great detail why political theory is a distinct field barely-related to political science; the gap is both huge and esoteric except to the people it applies to. Suffice it to say Political theorists ask "why" questions and almost-totally reject the idea that politics is social science. Political scientists ask "how" questions and largely reject the idea that politics is philosophy or humanities. That is over simplification (you really have to have at-least some understanding of the other in either field) but it suffices in this case.

I'm not going to suggest that makes me a philosopher but I'm cognizant there are people, both academics and functional-workers, with Ph.Ds in the field who fall as close or closer to professional philosophers than religion teachers do. Some of those people make hundreds-of-thousands of dollars/year.

[Kilgore]

42. In my world, Rubio is right

I live in Washington and my work puts me in pulp, paper, chemical, and energy facilities every day.

From first hand experience Rubio was right. Skilled welders, pipe fitters, millwrights, and industrial electricians are in short supply. One paper mill had two billboards on the interstate advertising openings including apprenticeships.

These are not low paying jobs. An apprentice millwright is around $22 an hour and a journeyman is well north of $30. Both have full benefits. From my discussions with the mills, the problem is finding people who can simultaneously do the work, pass the drug tests, and have good reading and writing skills.

I tell high school kids to strongly consider the trades instead of college. For the college bound ones my advice is mechanical or electrical engineering. Engineers who understand robotics and solar panels are common, but ones who can deal with boilers, steam turbines, generators and high voltage systems are few and far between. Seems our colleges have forgotten there still is a need for folks who understand a mollier diagram.

[wordpix]

53. I agree but I'd also have h.s. trade courses for those who want/need them

[Jimbo S]

46. An opportunity for a cheap shot

at "pointy-headed intellectuals". Red meat for the anti-intellectual base.

[0rganism]

47. exactly - facts and numbers don't matter one bit

there are highly paid welders, and low paid "soft" major grads, and vice versa, but the distribution and the actual numbers don't matter a bit to Rubio and his audience.

what matters to those folks is that the GOP establishes itself as the party of REAL MANLY MEN with REAL MANLY JOBS who don't need no book lernin and get ALL the filawsofee they can use at church on Sunday.

[Calista241]

48. I used to watch American Chopper and this reminded me of an episode

Where they were doing new business cards for their employees. Paul Jr. was adamant about having his title as Welder, and not owner, chief designer, fabricator, tv actor, or whatever else they could come up with.

On the other hand, they did spend a lot of time and attention to detail on the weld quality and techniques.

I remember thinking it odd, but whatever floats your boat I guess.

[wordpix]

51. I've taught hs seniors who read/write/do math on low elem. level ---read on

You put older hs students in "regular" classes when they're not ready for them, and you've got disaster. We have a National Disaster in Education.

If a student is academically disinclined or several grade levels behind , he needs to be able to choose "other" for courses like vo-ag, and continue to work on improving the basics instead of getting promoted to the next grade he's not ready for. So I think Rubio is correct.

Interesting story:

I taught 6th gr. in a DC charter school located in an affluent part of the city. The school attracted students from that area in the first couple of years after it was founded--- I came in Year 3. This school had outstanding test scores in the first two years (of course---studies have long shown that students in affluent areas/schools do much better than poor students), so by Year 3 word had gotten around and people in low income areas started to send their kids across the city to this school.

Most of these students were ill prepared for 6th gr. and could not read/write do math beyond 1st gr. level. More than half the students were at least a few grade levels behind in skills. Meanwhile, the affluent students could have skipped 6th gr. entirely and some could have gone on to 8th or 9th gr, they were so capable. So I was teaching 6th gr. science to kids with 1st-9th gr. skills. This was the most difficult job I had in my teaching career.

Big Problem. National Disaster in Education. We need education alternatives and teaching kids skills in welding, plumbing, farming, etc. is the answer. Not saying we should give up on reading/writing/math, but students need to hone basic skills before getting automatically moved on to next grade.

[Attorney in Texas]

55. 538: "Philosophers Don’t Get Much Respect, But Their Earnings Don’t Suck"

Excerpt from the whole article:

Philosophers don’t get much love in a world focused on earnings, public profile and technical accomplishment. A Monty Python song portrayed famous “lovers of wisdom” (the literal translation of the Greek word philosopher) as drunken sots. And at last night’s GOP debate there were several dismissive references to the art of loving wisdom. Ted Cruz decried the “philosopher-kings” at the Federal Reserve. John Kasich said, “Philosophy doesn’t work when you run something.” And Marco Rubio framed a point about reviving vocational education with the zinger, “Welders make more than philosophers. We need more welders and less philosophers.”

Today, he doubled-down on his riff during a campaign stop at the Jersey Grille in Davenport, Iowa. ...The fortunes of philosophers — or at least philosophy majors — are a mixed bag, ranging from college teaching adjuncts who can barely pay their rent to tech entrepreneurs. In general, humanities and liberal arts majors tend to have high unemployment rates (9.4 percent, according to a 2014 Georgetown University study), and within that group, philosophy and religious study majors tend to do a little worse, with a 10.8 percent jobless rate, according to the study.

But philosophy majors also have some of the highest scores in the LSAT and GMAT — the required tests for entry to law and business school respectively, according to figures from the Educational Testing Service (ETS). And when it comes to earnings for people who only have undergraduate degrees, philosophy majors have the fourth-highest median earnings, $81,200 per year, out-ranking business and chemistry majors, according to the ETS. Bar none, philosophy majors have the highest salary growth trajectory from entry to mid-career.

[ProfessorGAC]

56. That Mean for Welders Is Suspiciously Low

I know guys who do that. None of them are making 3k per month. Probably closer to 2k per week.

[Sunlei]

57. Rubio reinforced-Republicans will NOT raise the $7.25 minimum wage. Sucks for American workers.

Worse Congress in history and more underpaid workers because of Republicans like Rubio.

[restorefreedom]

61. its not a fair comparison but i tend to think rubio is on to something

welders can walk into a job after training. how many "philosophy" majors are employable after a 4 yr degree? to be employable they would have to go to grad school which requires more time more training and more money. taking into account the additional debt of grad school and the years required to pay it off, it could end up evening out or maybe be in favor of the welder unless one becomes a college professor (much more difficult now since colleges are moving away from tenured professors and using adjunct professor's which they can pay shit to) or an attorney.

nothing wrong with a trade. I knew two people who are married to each other both trades people. One in hvac, and one is a medical paraprofessional (2yr degree). they have a beautiful home, took nice vacations when they wanted, and they were able to help their kids through college. and both will be retired by their mid 60s except for maybe some part time work.

doesn't sound like a bad life

[markishilaurelius]

63. its a pointless comparison when his point was to say a non living min wage isn't the problem

Those with a GED or less can walk into a McDonald's to work after training too... Should welders stop going to welding school to go work at mcdonalds because why waste all that time going to school when you can be directly employed right now??
Philosophy majors with a 4 year degree are extremely employable, as well as having a ton of options like law school or medical school -- which i don't quite understand the argument against doing, unless claiming people should not pursue careers that require more schooling than that of a 1-2 year certification program. Which a person with a bachelors in philosophy can go on to do as well, IF THEY WANTED.
the comparison is silly because it almost sounds as if its being implied majors in philosophy are preventing others or are incapable themselves of becoming welders. what i'm hearing is "all these damn unemployable philosophers are completely wasting their welding potential to pursue their passion in other professions requiring them to be smarter and disciplined enough to commit themselves to the workload involved in their particular fields." Not to say welders aren't capable of any of that, they are, its just silly to argue one being better than the other when they're both needed. mind you there are WAY more welders than philosophers. the additional debt you speak of is the problem of the system in place, not a problem of people choosing careers that require more school. we need doctors, and lawyers, and judges, and journalists, and teachers, and welders. these are just some of the jobs a person with a philosophy degree usually go on to do."excluding welding lol thats probably more rare."

[restorefreedom]

64. rubio definitely wants to keep the serfs in their place

and it seems that many in the gop want to discourage people from getting an education. OTOH, i don't think we should let asses like rubio discourage people from going into trade work where the jobs can't be outsourced from their big money buds

welcome to du

[markishilaurelius]

65. i believe that he believes it when he says it. and tyvm for the welcome :)

i doubt rubio is influencing anybody more than those already dug in to their positions or take what these politicians say at face value. That is also my own unsubstantiated optimistic opinion on the matter though.

[restorefreedom]

66. :) the anti min wage folks are pretty dug in for sure

they have swallowed the cool aid and no amout of facts will change their minds

and you are right...rubio is preaching to the choir.its really just another rah rah moment for them