US rejects Hugo Chavez remarks on Latin America cancer
The US has rejected comments by Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, in which he questioned whether the US might be responsible for cancers affecting Latin American leaders.State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland called the comments "horrific and reprehensible".
She said they were not worthy of further response.
On Wednesday Mr Chavez said it was "very strange" that he and other leftist leaders had all had cancer.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-16359062
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Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)than to assume it is far-fetched.
The U.S. has designed regime change that has taken even stranger forms than that.
Renew Deal
(85,151 posts)has employeed?
Wind Dancer
(3,618 posts)Confessions of an Economic Hit Man
By John Perkins
Renew Deal
(85,151 posts)What does it say?
dotymed
(5,610 posts)"read me and learn what the elite will do (stop at nothing) to control wealth,natural resources, power,etc.) worldwide."
Do you actually expect people to read for you?...wow
Renew Deal
(85,151 posts)Or even give a hint what's in it. Otherwise it's just a waste of space.
kenfrequed
(7,865 posts)That these people will do anything to crack open the markets in other countries.
They will facilitate loans to try to indebt countries and when the debt becomes troubles start up.
Leaders may or may not flee with the money.
The IMF or World Bank or their cronies will come in and force the country into an austerity plan where public or natural resources are sold off and developed by transnational corporations while pensions, public assistance, and infrastructure is savaged to pay interest on loans.
Populist leaders might rise up to fight or to demand changes and they tend to get assassinated. Perkins suggests that often the assassinations can sometimes be a deliberate part of the plan should things not go well.
It really is a decent book and well worth a read. I think it personalizes and simplifies some of the terrible stuff that is done to other nations, but it does capture a good deal of it.
Wind Dancer
(3,618 posts)You asked a question so I assumed you wanted an answer. Obviously, I was wrong.
A simple google search would have revealed a wealth of information - Perkins has his own website, for goodness sakes.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)feigned ignorance does not suit you very well, esp. with that moniker.
Renew Deal
(85,151 posts)What "stranger forms of regime change" than "spreading cancer" has the US employeed? Please be specific since this is common knowledge.
liberalmike27
(2,479 posts)Stuff you've heard on FOX, or MSNBC, or CBS, or NBC?
That is corporate knowledge, if you want to call it knowledge at all. This might surprise you, but there are a whole rift of subjects, and issues they don't cover, that they avoid like the plague on the MSM. They never talk about past CIA operations anywhere, but you can find plenty of books, written by agents, who will tell what we've done. They are quite interesting reads. They won't talk much about nuclear meltdowns, or oil gushers, past the sensational phase. They don't clue you in about the negative effects of globalization, in fact, they spin it that we actually create more jobs with it. In truth, if we do, we certainly don't replace the income. And the rarely if ever mention that the destruction of those jobs also destroyed the tax base, that created the debt.ff
So, what is common knowledge? You need to look for the uncommon kind, and our country will do anything, start any war, corrupt any military to start a coup, to get its aims addressed. We are a very, very guilty country, at least our government. Most of our citizens are just willingly duped patsies, who soak up the BS they put on-air, in our narrow, corporate, right-centric networks.
kenfrequed
(7,865 posts)Just for starters. Everything from exploding counch shells to thalium salts to LSD laced cigars to bacillus laced wet suits were either planned or attempted on Fidel Castro.
But honestly our history of regime change through covert ops is a matter of public record in Latin America and denying this or playing cute about it doesn't actually make you look inquisitive.
RZM
(8,556 posts)Indeed the CIA devised some odd ways to get rid of Castro. Of course, if this is what the poster was referring to, it doesn't support her argument, since these plans were left on the drawing board and not put into practice.
Most of the plans stopped a stage or two away from execution, but there were plenty of things we did do to cuba. Money and documents were forged, crops were damaged,etc. Everything was done to disrupt the workings of this government.
cstanleytech
(28,473 posts)very..............very unlikely that I ever will.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)Renew Deal
(85,151 posts)
David__77
(24,728 posts)How could we ever imagine such a thing? lol... What is "horrific and reprehensible?"
Judi Lynn
(164,124 posts)That was "horrific and reprehensible" as well, as with other countless evil acts perpretrated against human beings using the same "moral" standards.
30 August 2011 Last updated at 04:20 ET
US scientists 'knew Guatemala syphilis tests unethical'
US government scientists who infected Guatemalans with syphilis and gonorrhoea as part of a study knew they were violating ethical rules, a US presidential panel has said.
The researchers infected hundreds of prisoners, psychiatric patients and sex workers during the 1940s to study the effects of penicillin.
None of the Guatemalans was informed.
But many of the same scientists had sought consent from participants in an earlier study in the US.
More:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-14712089
boppers
(16,588 posts)Sometimes, they combine heart disease and cancer, because the two are so common in older patients, nobody would suspect that it's *really* a conspiracy, rather than being a simple matter of getting older.
In addition, the US is also conspiring to make people delusional and paranoid as they get older. Again, nobody notices, because it looks just like normal human life degrading in front of them.
In a few years, Chavez might have to wonder if his memory loss, anger, and confusion, is the product of a US conspiracy, as well.
Yeah.
Having nursed more than a few people through this rough time in life, maybe it's time to step down, as the symptoms get worse.
I love conspiracy theories because they reveal the kinds of questions people are asking -- although they rarely provide accurate answers to the questions.
But Chavez's theory is way, way, way too crazy.
It would be very difficult to poison these leaders without poisoning other people around them.
I seriously doubt that any sort of hit men could get close enough to the president of a country to inject something into them or send a beam to them or put some poison in their drink.
What an absurd thought on Chavez's part.
Dover
(19,788 posts)bluff?
I think if you are a world leader who knows you are in the crosshairs of the U.S. and its western allies,
you had better watch your back and expect anything. They've already tried to get rid of Chavez so he's
well within the parameters of reality in wondering about this. The rise of the left by our immediate southern
neighbors and our loss of power in the region is, I am sure, sounding big alarms in the dark corners of power in the U.S.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)If I knew how cancer could be transmitted to Latin American leaders, it would not surprise me. But how possible would that be? And it doesn't have to be the US. There are other Globalists like the major Oil Cartels who would not be too upset to see South America lose its democratically elected leaders and help replace them with more compliant Rightwing dictators, again. It's not like it has not happened before, the replacement of democratically elected leaders in that part of the world, I mean.
He is not crazy to consider it and smart to say it publicly just in case he should have a sudden urge to suicide himself or have some kind of 'tragic accident'. He's a smart guy and has stated in the past he might be assassinated because of his policies which focus on the poor. Could be he got some information and decided to let them know he knows and won't be quiet about it.
Anyone who thinks his accusation is 'crazy' must not be aware of the US backed coup in 2002 that failed. Condi pretty much gave away that the US was involved in that.
Dover
(19,788 posts)would be joined by South America in forming a large western hemisphere trading bloc. And all those oil and other resources
so close yet so far now from our grasp. I think the southern leaders (under Chavez's prompting) were wise to join
forces and link arms or the US would have used the insideous 'free market' takeover and any other sordid attempts in our bag of tricks to secure our power in that region.
We tried to do that in Russia by hooking up with some of the big western-friendly oil oligarchs who had seized so many of Russia's resources. But Putin saw the writing on the wall and kicked them AND us out and nationalized/ reclaimed those resources. The same is happening in South America. The jig is up for free market capitalists. The tide has turned and something new is trying to emerge though it's unclear exactly what that is because regardless of what world leaders would like to implement, the people all over the world are fed up with deeply entrenched corruption, regardless of the system. Now Africa is in the sights of resource-hungry countries
.... and on it goes. Clearly a very simplified version of a complex situation, but I think that's the basics.
Meanwhile, the icecaps are melting at record speed...
unkachuck
(6,295 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)sounds like science fiction. Trying to give people cancer would be an unreliable and very slow way to change politics.
This would make no sense.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,996 posts)Ever notice how Chavez lickspittles go from "maybe" to "definitely" in less than a second?
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Anyway, you must have forgotten how CIA used American children in radiation experiments.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3312956
"Lickspittle." Good one! Like "Quisling."
RZM
(8,556 posts)In his 1989 book 'Mutation' (which completely sucked, BTW).
The plot centers around a genetically-engineered genius kid who (surprise, surprise) turns out to be evil. He removes people standing in the way of his nefarious plans by giving them liver cancer, which he figured out how to do thanks to his evil super-genius powers.
Neoma
(10,039 posts)boppers
(16,588 posts)It's time for somebody to step up, or see Chavez do to the South what Lenin did to the North.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Or what am I to take of your statement, "It's time for somebody to step up, or see Chavez do to the South what Lenin did to the North."
Sounds like you don't believe the USG gave him cancer, but you think they should have.
boppers
(16,588 posts)Regardless of the source for their infirmity.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Also, you seem to forget that sane and rational people also kill. There are entire agencies of supposedly democratic governments devoted to killing, indeed to murder. The US government especially. In the past it has committed aggression against Venezuela and Chavez's government in particular. This has gone unpunished, not even an apology. Based on its continuing rhetoric and past record, it's likely the aggression continues. If you're a citizen of this nation, and thus in a better position to do something about it, your government's aggression should concern you a lot more than making up your defamations and lies about Chavez.
What did you mean by "it's time for somebody to step up"? In context, it sounds like your approval of an assassination attempt on Chavez. Please feel free to clarify your statement and correct any misconceptions.
boppers
(16,588 posts)I meant that Chavez is increasingly erratic and delusional, and is at risk of destroying any good he has done, and needs to step aside voluntarily or otherwise be removed from power. A delusional, paranoid, interpretation of that may be "they're trying to kill me!". As demonstrated.
As far as the imagined US "aggression", it's all pretty much the same pattern, where a US airplane flies near Venezuela, and Chavez freaks out about "being invaded", American intelligence warns Chavez about an internal threat and he declares "the US is trying to assassiinate me"!, an attempted coup take place and Chavez blames the US for it, aid is given to other governments and Chavez interprets it as a personal attack, etc.
It's always about some nefarious, external, threat, because the delusional cannot accept that they are aiding, and indeed, creating, their sense (and thus, their reality) of persecution.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)That is, before Chavez does to South America what Lenin did to Russia, as you added? This implies something very, very bad, a threat to humanity.
So who is this someone and what is the meaning of "stepping up" in the context of a discussion in which Chavez thinks there are already assassination attempts on him?
It sounds like you think he should be assassinated. So please explain.
boppers
(16,588 posts)Different people step up to the podium to speak. It's time for somebody to take the reins, grab the wheel, man the rudder,... choose your metaphor.
I don't know how you get assassination out of that, other than maybe giving credence to Chavez's weird delusions.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)dotymed
(5,610 posts)considered "crazy."
This "Brave New World" holds many surprises for for all, IMO.
When Chavez said this, he commented that he was just "thinking out loud." Personally, the rapid State Department response surprised me, especially since he used that caveat and never made an actual accusation....
DissedByBush
(3,342 posts)For decades countries have been trying to extend the idea that we sit over here with our soldiers safe while we kill the enemy with our extended-range weapons, extend the stand-off.
British longbowmen with their barrages,
Field artillery
Airplanes with bombs
Airplanes with smart guided bombs
ICBMs
Cruise missiles from the poorly guided German V-1 to the Tomahawk
Then we got more efficient, lower-cost, long stand-off, and extremely accurate with no danger to our own forces: the armed drone.
dotymed
(5,610 posts)DissedByBush
(3,342 posts)boppers
(16,588 posts)"crazy"?
Only to those who ignored newspapers, radio, books, and television.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)And as for getting close enough to do physical harm? Really? You think it's impossible?
I don't particularly believe in this theory, though I think it's a possibility well within US capabilities, but that's because cancer is slow and probably unreliable as a form of assassination, and it can be treated and cured.
I'd say a sudden heart attack or stroke would be a better method.
edited to add more
boppers
(16,588 posts)It's a byproduct of being on a radioactive planet. For over 4,000,000,000 years, our ancestors have been fighting it.
It's not a matter of "getting it", it's a matter of "your body looses to it".
You have cancerous cells in your body, right now. They will likely be killed soon.
Some don't.
AikidoSoul
(2,150 posts)economic targets. It's been done many times, and continues. Unless you have become extremely chemically sensitive (as I am) you would not notice. When exposed to neurotoxicants in the air, I become immediately disoriented, ditsy, have difficulty concentrating, get tightness in the neck and shoulders, headaches, joint pain...and the list goes on. There are many people in the world now who have this illness.
Was it a coincidence that I was poisoned with organophosphate, carbamate, and pyrethroid pesticides (that I never used myself) during the period when I started the Perot for President campaign in the U.S? According to the Perot Group I was the first person in the U.S. to call Perot to try to convince him to run for president. I drove all over Florida getting support from individuals and groups. It was during this period that my spouse and I became ill with multiple chronic problems. Both of us at the same time. We were in our forties. I never suspected anything at the time, but I was still quite innocent and thought people were rarely capable of evil. That has changed. My spouse and I were also followed, our phones were tapped, and many CIA types infiltrated our movement during the Perot for President movement in Florida.
The results of our being chronically poisoned by these pesticides was devastating to our health. We not only almost died, we became impoverished from huge medical bills. The fact that the poisoning was low level over a long period made it undetectible at the time. It took us nine months to discover the source! By then it was too late.
As for chemically induced chemical sensitivity and the horrible, disabling chronic health issues that follow being chronically poisoned, here's a YouTube item on the topic from Spain. The problem is now worldwide thanks to pervasive neurotoxic chemicals.
www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Op-wNt24SN0
For the chemically sensitive, it's interesting to note that when the triggering chemicals are no longer present the symptoms resolve, IF the target normally is able to maintain a low toxicant environment. As long as the air is good, the symptoms resolve. Breathing toxicants at low levels over a long period is the fastest way to become ill (think too that this is the way that drugs enter the system the quickest). There is NO blood brain barrier between the nose and the brain. Neurotoxicants inhaled go directly to the brain and immediately into the bloodstream.
Dump some chemicals in the area near the target and he and /or she will become incapacitated by illness, as will their loved ones and pets.
And then there is the general population. The chem/pharm industry purposefully impregnates countless commonly used materials with neurotoxins, endocrine disrupters, and other poisons. We and our pets become ill and we them treat our symptoms with the poisoner's products! What a business plan!
COLGATE4
(14,886 posts)kenfrequed
(7,865 posts)Because assassination never happens in Latin America and the US has never supported covert action there in history.
As to the specifics even I, a simple layman, had conceived of a cancer-causing weapon over a decade ago. It could be devised using directed radiation, though I had difficulty thinking of a way that it could be sufficiently portable, reliable, or predictable.
NuttyFluffers
(6,811 posts)sigh... my media ennui is setting in again.
JustABozoOnThisBus
(24,681 posts)... but now that our State Department is bothering to deny it ...
dotymed
(5,610 posts)actions in attempting to overthrow Chavez and all left leaning leaders up to this point. So is this a backhanded admission to a comment that was never an accusation?
COLGATE4
(14,886 posts)Like Lula da Silva? Kirchner?
obamanut2012
(29,369 posts)The US Government, including the CIA, has done some weird and awful things in Central and SA the last 100 years or so.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Reminds me of the old LBJ joke:
DID HE OR DIDN'T HE?....This story may or may not be true, but legend has it that during one of Lyndon Johnson's congressional campaigns he decided to spread a rumor that his opponent was a pig-fucker. LBJ's campaign manager said, "Lyndon, you know he doesn't do that!" Johnson replied, "I know. I just want to make him deny it."
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2006_09/009566.php
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)at the regular State Sept. briefing. The State Department denied nothing...merely noted that the statements were horrifying.
You might try to pass this off as evidence of Chavez's deft diplomacy, but I think you fail.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)LOL. You are a riot.
UTUSN
(77,795 posts)Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)If we were able to get close enough to Chavez (or any other leader) to introduce cancer, which may or may not be curable, into their body, why wouldn't we introduce something that acted quicker and was incurable?
Solly Mack
(96,943 posts)Yet it was worthy of an initial response?
lol
Kinda funny.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Hi Solly,
Solly Mack
(96,943 posts)
Lot of poking going on. lol
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)It took me 5 seconds to find it on the google.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)As I pointed out above thread, the State Dept. did not comment on Hugo until asked.
This was not, as you have attempted to claim, Hugo showing deft 'diplomacy.'
So you fall back on Nuland not answering the question as you think she ought to have???
bemildred
(90,061 posts)You are a wizard of logic, eh?
I have to go now, I can tell you are getting upset.
DissedByBush
(3,342 posts)"We are not going to dignify that with a response."
My smart ass would have said "We are currently preparing an emergency humanitarian shipment of tin foil for Mr. Chavez."
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)The State Department gives regular briefings. In it, the Dept. spokeswoman is asked questions. Afterwards, the transcript is released, with topics helpfully indexed so that you can find them....I swear this only took me 5 seconds on the google.
"QUESTION: Thanks. The president of Iran will be in four Latin American countries in January, including Venezuela, Cuba, Nicaragua, and Ecuador. Can you tell us about that?
And the second question is: Yesterday, the President of Venezuela Hugo Chavez said that U.S. may have created a new technology to induce cancer in Latin American presidents who are enemies of United States. What would you say to Chavez?
MS. NULAND: Well, first, with regard to the Iranian tour of Latin American countries, let me refer you to Iran and to the countries that the leader is visiting. Our hope and expectation is that these will increase the pressure on Iran.
With regard to the Chavez statements, let me simply say that they are horrific and reprehensible."
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2011/12/179774.htm#VENEZUELA
bemildred
(90,061 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Above thread, you actually tried to suggest that this was part of a Chavez plan to get us to deny 'pig-fucking.' I think you failed.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)price for his frivolity.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Solly Mack
(96,943 posts)reporters glued to her side least she blurt something worth reporting. lololol
Doesn't change how funny it is though. I do so get a kick out of people being defensive over nothing. lol
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Solly Mack
(96,943 posts)
LiberalLovinLug
(14,689 posts)"...let me simply say that they are horrific and reprehensible."
Not that she would be told of it, but puleeeze, as if the US has never participated in anything that could be described like that.
How can anyone say for sure that the US military and the CIA, with their billions in top secret weapon development, could not have developed a way to "infect" someone with cancer? Its a perfect bullet, because you'd be able to rely on even the most left wing, anti-establishment DUer to scoff at the idea.
TomClash
(11,344 posts)Yeah, right.
Ike authorized the CIA to poison Patrice Lumumba, the Congolese leader, for starters.
And for you naysayers who think this is a "conspiracy theory" - consider the source, Time Magazine, not exactly Prison Planet.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,132849,00.html
You can also read the (watered down) Church Committee Report from the 1970s about CIA assassination attempts on Trujillo, Castro, Diem and others.
And much, much more . . .
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)TomClash
(11,344 posts)And now people revere him.
Hugo Chavez certainly has his problems, and in this case he may very well be wrong, but it is hardly crazy to speculate that the US would assassinate the leaders of other nations.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)TomClash
(11,344 posts)I wasn't dissing' him.
I was trying to show you that the US has hatched similar plots before, which means it is not exactly out of the question.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)He'd had symptoms for decades. Jeebus.
TomClash
(11,344 posts)Most disagreed with Savio's views in 1964 but years later facts emerged that tended to bolster his views. Now they name things at Berkeleyafter him.
You call Chavez "batshit nuts" but there is precedent in the USG for such actions. Like Savio, he is saying something people scoffed at and 30 years from now facts may prove him right.
hack89
(39,181 posts)TomClash
(11,344 posts)And then my post about Mario Savio.
It should make sense in context.
hack89
(39,181 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)hack89
(39,181 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Maybe you can come up with a reverence rating system and rank Savio for us. Thanks.
hack89
(39,181 posts)I guess in his case, there is a very small but passionate group that might revere him.
marasinghe
(1,253 posts)link to the Wiki- article on the book behind the movie:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Men_Who_Stare_at_Goats
this is what UK Channel 4 TV had to say about their series, "Crazy Rulers of the World", one episode of which was based on "The Men Who Stare at Goats".
quote/.... The idea of the project was to explore "the apparent madness at the heart of U.S. military intelligence." ..../unquote.
welcome to the mind of the fascist goon.
;P
iandhr
(6,852 posts)... this offends me.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)would have been, "I can't say as I do not have the clearance to know whether a US government program of assassination by inducing cancer exists. If I did have the clearance to know, I still would not be allowed to disclose it. If such a program did exist, it would not formally reside in the State Department."
In fact, "I don't know and if I did I couldn't tell you" should cover at least half the questions advanced to her and most other PR personnel of opaque organizations, like the agencies of the USG. They should wear a button that says that, would save a lot of time.
fujiyama
(15,185 posts)they'd use a much more efficient method.
Another Chavez fail. This guy is a hoot.
cstanleytech
(28,473 posts)a drone attack or something.
The fact is many people get cancer ever year around the world http://www.cancer.gov/newscenter/pressreleases/2011/ReportNation2011Release and its not some vast conspiracy against leaders in south america or Chavez because if the US wanted him dead he would be dead by now and he needs to stop speculating about insane things like this and focus on fixing his countries problems.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)cstanleytech
(28,473 posts)eventually just like something will get all of us eventually, might be heart issues, could be stroke or any number of things but we all will die someday from something.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)Happy New Year.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)You're probably right, lol.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)to oust Chavez in 2002, but the Venezuelan people had had enough of Global Capitalist interference in their affairs.
Chavez is a hoot, and very clever. He is alerting the world to the possibility of an attack on him, and since the world knows it happened before, I doubt his making this public will be seen as anything more than a message. I mean it's not as if the US was not involved in ousting other South American leaders who made the mistake of thinking their resources belonged to them. The people of that region of the world probably remember clearly since it is not that long ago and trials of some of our former dictator friends are ongoing now, decades later, what interference in their affairs by the US and Global Oil cartels did to their countries. I'm sure they at least will not dismiss his statements.
treestar
(82,383 posts)in the fight against it:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-16359062
Every single one has had a good outcome and Fernandez' prognosis is good.
DireStrike
(6,452 posts)
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Possibly sees himself as wearing the mantle of Salvador Allende. I'm always on the fence with this kind of stuff.
Regime change can happen publicly by military might or mob, or stealth. The 1% have been slaughtering each other for millenia. Nothing new.
Islandlife
(212 posts)
daleo
(21,317 posts)PavePusher
(15,374 posts)Stuff like this is gonna send my kids to some very good Universities.
Enrique
(27,461 posts)
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)I wonder at the strength of the various governments EPA's, are they more easily bribed, are regulations just looser, oversight? There is just as much potential for industry to poison water, food and air in South America as anywhere.