US commandos parachuted into N. Korea

[Lars77]

Source: AFP

US and South Korean special forces have been parachuting into North Korea to gather intelligence about underground military installations, a US officer has said in comments carried in US media.

Army Brigadier General Neil Tolley, commander of US special forces in South Korea, told a conference held in Florida last week that Pyongyang had built thousands of tunnels since the Korean war, The Diplomat reported.

"The entire tunnel infrastructure is hidden from our satellites," Tolley said, according to The Diplomat, a current affairs magazine. "So we send (South Korean) soldiers and US soldiers to the North to do special reconnaissance."

"After 50 years, we still don't know much about the capability and full extent" of the underground facilities," he said, in comments reported by the National Defense Industrial Association's magazine on its website.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/us-commandos-parachuted-n-korea-report-212356834.html

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This is weird.

First of all, why come out and say that if it is true?

Second, i suppose you could drop in at night from high altitude.. But how do you extract people from North Korea, the most heavily defended country in the world? They can´t walk across the border, that´s for sure.

This seems very odd to me.

[teddy51]

1. WTF! Why would you make this known if true? Yea, and how the hell do you get them out

of there safely?

[Lars77]

3. hmmmm

[naaman fletcher]

46. more likely

they are not there at all, and we are just screwing with them.

[MNBrewer]

2. Hey! North Korea!!! Please look for our soldiers!

That's what he basically said, I guess.

[pasto76]

10. yeah, they do that anyway. How many people are detained for 'helping the enemy' do you think?

[TheDebbieDee]

4. Maybe this is the US's way of tipping off Jong-Il Jr and the N Koreans that

they are aware of their underground facilities and may be preparing to take these sites out....

[14thColony]

35. If we could have we would have long ago

Hundreds upon hundreds of miles of tunnels and bunkers dug deep into solid rock. We could drop every nuke we had on North Korea and not even crack the ceiling tiles in most of their deep underground facilities, even if we knew exactly where they were, which we don't.

Our military is not nearly as omnipotent as some believe. In a game of rock-paper-bombs, rock still wins.

[Rod Mollise]

44. Well...not exactly.

Our capabilities are pretty amazing in this regard. Which doesn't mean we should begin nuking North Korea, of course.

[14thColony]

53. Our capability in this regard is the GBU-28

Which is a 5,000lb guided bomb designed for deep penetration. It was used in the 2003 Iraq war against hardened Iraqi command posts, and was very effective. It is capable of penetrating about 25ft of unreinforced concrete, which is quite impressive to be sure.

The North Koreans, meanwhile, have a demonstrated ability to tunnel at least 240 feet down into solid bedrock, which is substantially harder than unreinforced concrete (exhibit 1 is the assault tunnel dug under Panmunjom by the NKA to breach South Korean defenses in event of war; it's one of four discovered, and one of dozens suspected to exist under the DMZ).

Now if the North Koreans are going to put that kind of effort into building divison-level assault tunnels, what level of effort do you suppose they'd put into protecting their national command system, their national leadership, and their strategic weapons?

Even if their strategic infrastructure is "only" as deep as their assualt tunnels, it's still a factor of ten too deep for our best penetrator. A factor of TEN too deep. Current technology simply cannot get a bomb going fast enough to penetrate that deep, and even if it could, no currently known material could survive impact with solid bedrock at those speeds.

As I said before; in rock-paper-bombs, rock still wins.

[Incitatus]

49. It would take a lot of workers to create these tunnels.

There would also have to be signs from above ground. Materials/machines going in, lots of dirt/rock coming out. With human intelligence on the ground (CIA making contact with workers and planners) and satellite surveillance from above, the US likely knows a lot more than they are going to admit.

[RKP5637]

5. Yep, strange story to be public ... n/t

[WriteWrong]

6. Why admit it? To defuse the publicity when the N. Koreans start executing spies?

[awoke_in_2003]

7. "The entire tunnel infrastructure is hidden from our satellites," ...

BS- in the late 70's, early 80's, we let a satellite pic "slip" which showed all the underground aquifers of the Nile River. Had it published in Nat Geo. This was to tell the USSR that they couldn't hide their missiles. Our technology hasn't gone backwards.

[Harmony Blue]

8. If I were to guess they (N. Koreans) are using

unconventional means to "hide" these tunnels.

[awoke_in_2003]

14. We used ground penetrating radar...

to see those aquifiers. I guess it is possible that they have dug deeper than it can penetrate. That being said- is it worth starting a shooting war by dropping guys behind their lines? I don't think it is.

[JDPriestly]

41. Problem is -- the tunnels could extend under South Korea.

That would be even more dangerous than sending reconnaissance into North Korea.

So, I would send people in.

[awoke_in_2003]

45. you could be right...

it just gets tiring that it appears like we are ALWAYS looking for a way to get into shooting matches.

[JDPriestly]

54. True!

[hedgehog]

51. What - they don't have seismographs or

ground penetrating radar in South Korea?

[pasto76]

9. think the only way out is through the DMZ?

seems odd to you if you are not a soldier. Seems odd to me that your comment to the article is so one dimensional.

[jberryhill]

11. It's a surprising thing to admit

Look, if we have people scoping out the PRK, that's great. I just don't think it is something that needs a public announcement.

Unless, of course, the purpose is to get the PRK to get antsy about its tunnel system security and thus engage in actions which can themselves be remotely detected.

[MADem]

37. One if by land, and two if by sea, and I on the opposite shore will be!

The North Koreans who tire of the place and yearn for greater freedom frequently escape by water, or through China. The country also shares a border with a chunk of Russia. Plenty of ways out for the enterprising covert operator...

[Botany]

12. and he is talking about this why?

Look I am all for getting rid of and scaling back our defense spending
and military bases but if a single American's life is at risk then nobody
should be saying anything.

[msongs]

13. DU readers seriously believe N. Korea does NOT know about this already? doh! nt

[David__77]

15. This is not at all secret. It's been going on for decades.

And the infiltration is both directions. But there's more north-to-south infiltration, because it's difficult for anyone to move around undetected in the north.

[Harmony Blue]

16. This is simple the United States is sending a message

they know the N. Koreans want to do another underground nuclear test.

[Poll_Blind]

17. Is this preemptive damage control because some of them have been captured?

Otherwise...what motivation would a recently-promoted Brigadier General have to flush his career down the toilet by releasing what would be highly sensitive information about sources and methods of covert information collection?

I mean...that doesn't make sense. Does it? Could he have mentioned something "off the record" that a reporter mistakenly reported on the record?

Look at this guy's bio. I just...get the feeling this guy isn't the blabbing type.

It's a strange story.

PB

[JDPriestly]

42. Maybe this is old news to the North Koreans and the US wants to control the story

if the media gets hold of it.

I did not see any mention of this in Wikileaks, but then I did not read them that carefully.
stories like this that I don't think the Wikileaks were leaking the big secrets.

Just thought I would mention this.

It sort of puts Wikileaks in perspective.

Trying to pick the truth out of all the "news" we are fed is quite a challenge. Every day presents some intriguing puzzle.

[ogima]

18. Interesting

Yea it is puzzling why they would mention this because one would think they would be putting the Team at risk. That guy Shane Smith with Vice was able to get into the country by paying people. Do you think we will goto war with North Korea soon: at least free the Prisoners. I wonder how many Americans are in their jails. I heard stories that they have been kidnapping Americans to teach them English.

[jberryhill]

22. Why would they kidnap Americans to teach them English?

Don't the Americans already know English?

Next thing you know, they'll be kidnapping DUers to teach them how to use indefinite articles.

[area51]

36. You're bad.

[Nevernose]

19. He could just be fucking with the North Korean's heads

If one of the purposes of sending in special forces was to sow paranoia and distrust, not to mention stir up a military response of some kind (we could then analyze said response/freak-out via satellite), we wouldn't actually need to send anybody over the border. We'd just need to say we were sending someone over the border. Plus, of they find this nugget, it gives us an idea about how wired into Internet intelligence gathering they are and gives us an idea of their response times.

[Old and In the Way]

26. I think so, too.

They might be testing Kim Jong Un to see how he reacts. This kind of statement is not made without intent. I suppose now Kim is going to have to react to this news...maybe they want to see how he handles this.

[IamK]

20. and why did the president win the Nobel Peace Prize again....?? n/t

[jberryhill]

24. For answering a question about American society

[boppers]

55. For efforts in creating peace between nations.

"The Norwegian Nobel Committee has decided that the Nobel Peace Prize for 2009 is to be awarded to President Barack Obama for his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples. The Committee has attached special importance to Obama's vision of and work for a world without nuclear weapons.

Obama has as President created a new climate in international politics. Multilateral diplomacy has regained a central position, with emphasis on the role that the United Nations and other international institutions can play. Dialogue and negotiations are preferred as instruments for resolving even the most difficult international conflicts. The vision of a world free from nuclear arms has powerfully stimulated disarmament and arms control negotiations. Thanks to Obama's initiative, the USA is now playing a more constructive role in meeting the great climatic challenges the world is confronting. Democracy and human rights are to be strengthened.

Only very rarely has a person to the same extent as Obama captured the world's attention and given its people hope for a better future. His diplomacy is founded in the concept that those who are to lead the world must do so on the basis of values and attitudes that are shared by the majority of the world's population."

More here: http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/2009/press.html

[IamK]

56. its cooperate with us or get "blowed up"..... n/t

[may3rd]

57. they are doing a good job on their own with the arab spring breakout of 2011.....n/t

[boppers]

58. ...or don't try to blow us up, and we'll leave you alone.

[Fearless]

21. I need to call BS on this...

It's completely possible to use sonar like sensors to find underground tunnels... It's not like these things would be hundreds of feet underground!

These may help... http://www.enviroscan.com/html/cave_detection_and_mapping.html

[jberryhill]

23. The seismic and ground scanning radar techniques...

Require an on-site operator.

[Fearless]

27. There are other methods...

http://www.astrium.eads.net/en/space-benefits-for-earth/using-radar-satellites-for-monitoring-underground-construction.html

[jberryhill]

28. That works in the absence of countermeasures

The Hungarians are not trying to hide where their subway is.

[Fearless]

29. North Korea isn't exactly a bastion of advanced techniques either.

[jberryhill]

30. It's basic E&M

On fields & waves theory, they're fine. Making sure there is enough reflective density on the top of a deep tunnel to mask the hole underneath is not hard and doesn't require advanced materials.

It's amazing how creative smart people get (and they have enough of a cadre of smart folks) when circumstances dictate.

The tuned acoustic resonators that the North Vietnamese had guys stand inside in order to do long range air raid detection, for example, were pretty cool. Cuban farm yield techniques is another.

We've applied the same techniques to tunnels under the US-Mexico border, and they still manage to dig them and use them from time to time.

If we are talking about underground complexes tucked away anywhere in the DPRK, that's more territory than you are going to cover with ground penetrating radar. You have to have some pretty good idea where you are looking for whatever it is you are looking for.

I hate to paraphrase Rumsfeld, of all people, but we know what we know and we know some things that we don't know, but the things we don't know that we don't know are the buggers.

On another note entirely, did you catch the "traffic accident" rash that has killed off just about any DPRK official who has been engaged in any talks with the South? That's a great Stalinesque move. If you don't know who might have been leaking what, then take the pre-emptive course of killing anyone who had the opportunity, whether they leaked or not. That's pretty hardcore. Order half of your most presumed loyal followers to kill the other half, and it's a pretty sure bet that the ones left are not going to step out of line.

[yurbud]

32. sort of like the caves in Afghanistan that were supposed to be like something out of Tolkien but

were really just shallow holes in the wall.

If you want to say someone is a threat when they really aren't, you need to start talking about tunnels.

[coalition_unwilling]

25. Jesus H. Christ, I wonder what genius at the Pentagon authorized

this security breach and\or provocation?

[yurbud]

33. Maybe China has finally given the OK to US & S. Korea to topple North

In their commie days, North Korea was a nice stick in the eye of the West, but now that China is doing booming business with us and probably South Korea too, North Korea is their Joe Pesci in GOODFELLAS. It would be better if to take out the government of North Korea the way Pesci's character in that movie was than to go to war though. Maybe China could invite their leadership to visit, then misplace them somewhere along the way

[red dog 1]

34. "The US military vehemently denies this"?..then it must be true!

[muriel_volestrangler]

38. 'Clarification' by 'The Diplomat': may have been hypothetical

In response to the controversy that has attended yesterday's story on North Korea, The Diplomat has sought corroboration. While the author strongly disputes the contention that any quote was fabricated, we acknowledge the possibility that Brig. Gen. Tolley was speaking hypothetically, about future war plans rather than current operations. The author insists he heard no such qualification, but if there has been a misunderstanding then we regret any confusion.

http://the-diplomat.com/flashpoints-blog/2012/05/29/clarification-on-north-korea/

Google web cache of the article (the website now redirects the original URL to its front page): http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache f9kA6BQc5YJ:the-diplomat.com/flashpoints-blog/2012/05/28/u-s-commandos-spy-on-north-korea/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a

[newfie11]

39. Anything to start another war

More insanity from America. Of course if the N Koreans did this to us OMFG! Nothing surprises me any more.

[Javaman]

40. This sounds like Psyops.

whether the soldiers actually parachuted in or not, doesn't matter. N. Korea is so paranoid that they will not use their limited resources to try and figure out whether this story is true or not.

what I find interesting is what advantage does this give to the US and SK?

It could just be a poke in the side to see how the new fearless leader reacts.

Frankly, I have begun to believe that the new Kim is nothing more than a glorified ribbon cutter. The military has been in control since day one of the new regime and may have been the real power during the last.

[Enrique]

43. one reason they might say it is because we are a democracy

and whatever they are doing it is in our name and with our tax dollars.

That said, I don't believe that's the reason, though it should be. I agree with others who are skeptical of anything the military says. Ass-covering, or psy-ops, more likely.

[may3rd]

47. an act of war by any other name would be called an invasion.

I call BS on this misinformation article which could only be done with cooperation of the north. I know those munchkins are starving to death but to pull off a surprise drop like that?

I highly doubt Obama signed off on it.

[may3rd]

48. update your link it now says ""US military denies parachuting into N.Korea""

slow news day eh?

http://news.yahoo.com/us-commandos-parachuted-n-korea-report-212356834.html

[Canuckistanian]

50. Yoohoo, Kim Jong-Un! Intruder Alert!

Be on the lookout for well-fed strangers.

[DeSwiss]

52. This whole thing is.....

Unnie!